From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan  1 09:03:13 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 16:03:13 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Slow Money....and a Happy New Year!
Message-ID: <682671.22485.qm@web27405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All,
?
?????????? This may be of interest! Yes, slow money!!
?
?
http://www.change.org/ideas/view/slow_money
?
?
Robert Searle


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan  1 09:08:49 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 16:08:49 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] We need a ceasefire and humanitarian aid in Gaza.
In-Reply-To: <495C7CE1.6070505@efn.org>
Message-ID: <638400.63927.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Thu, 1/1/09, JoAnne Van Datta <vand at efn.org> wrote:

From: JoAnne Van Datta <vand at efn.org>
Subject: We need a ceasefire and humanitarian aid in Gaza.
To: 
Date: Thursday, 1 January, 2009, 8:20 AM


Dear Friend,

During a time of year filled with prayers for peace, the volatile Gaza
Strip is plagued, once again, by violence and death.

Air strikes in Gaza have killed 300 so far - at least 50 of them civilians
- and injured over 600 more. Rockets are striking deep inside of Israel.
As the crisis is spirals out of control, it is certain to lead to more
civilian suffering and an escalation of the conflict.

To make a profound understatement, the political and historical conflict
causing this violence is centuries old and far too complicated to address
in an e-mail. The purpose of the petition I just signed is not to assert
who's right and who's wrong, but rather to ask for real action to stop the
violence through an immediate ceasefire.

I just signed a petition asking the UN, the European Union, the Arab
League and the U.S. State Department to act to stop this violence. I hope
you will too.

Please have a look and take action.

http://act.credoaction.com/campaign/un_gaza/?r_by=2028-1435765-0UxsK5x&rc=mailto

Thanks!




      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan  1 09:28:38 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 16:28:38 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] New Internationalist..
Message-ID: <950280.32963.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All,
?
????????? The New Internationalist has been around for a long time, and here is the december issue of last issue with some interesting links in connection with the present crisis.
?
?
http://www.newint.org/issues/2008/12/01/
?
?
Robert Searle


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan  1 09:33:02 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 16:33:02 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Bill Ryan "attacks" Montagne!
Message-ID: <922616.39954.qm@web27405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Dear All,
?
?????????????? I was amused to see William Ryan aka Peter Hogwash etc? attacking Montagne though in this case it would?arguably be justified to a large extent!!!
?
?
http://perfecteconomy.com/pg-william-b-ryan-ad-hominems-disprove-mpe.html
?
?
R.Searle.


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan  1 10:28:00 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 17:28:00 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] An Update on the Electronic Currency System, or ECS?
Message-ID: <864035.96166.qm@web27402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All,
?
?????????? I am wondering if Professor Purkayastha, and his team? might be good enough to fill us in with an update of their progress in trying to introduce ECS. I believe Dr. Muhammad Mukhtar Alam may have met with him. Perhaps he could kindly give us a brief report as to how things went??
?
Regards,
?
Robert Searle.
?
?


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan  2 08:00:37 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:00:37 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Retained profits of banks
In-Reply-To: <200901012257.n01MvP3G007205@mail14.tpg.com.au>
Message-ID: <359213.14163.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Thu, 1/1/09, John Hermann <hermann at picknowl.com.au> wrote:

From: John Hermann <hermann at picknowl.com.au>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Retained profits of banks
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Thursday, 1 January, 2009, 10:57 PM



1.? A bank is a company operating as a government registered depository.? Other financial institutions operating as cooperatives (eg, credit unions, building societies) also have been given depository status in recent times.

2.? The two basic reasons why banks offer depositors interest bearing accounts is (1) to attract longer term deposits, so that the maturity levels of loans and deposits can be matched as far as possible, and (2) to obtain needed excess reserves at a better net cost than would be obtained by borrowing reserves from either the money markets or the central bank (the FED).? 

In regard to reason number (2), bank reserves are always freed up if money is transferred from demand deposits (which attract very little or zero interest) to term deposits (which attract substantial interest).

John Hermann





At 08:04 AM 1/01/2009, Ed G wrote:

Hi Ken:
I'm new to the list, hopefully I'll not duplicate ground already covered,

In Canada the definition of a "bank" is a company given a charter by government permitting it to "accept deposits". 
The generally accepted and conventional wisdom, which is a major error, is that "banks" accept deposits of money for the purpose of lending it to borrowers. This contributes to the perception that the difference interest paid the depositor of money and the rate charged the borrower of credit is taken as the bank's gross profit.

That is patently wrong!

The reason banks USED interest to attract depositors money was twofold, it was attract legal tender currency, which the bank USED to need in order to leverage it, and lend it to borrowers who deposited market value collateral. Secondly, it was to keep alive the fiction that they lent the MONEY of depositors to borrowers. 

When a person deposits money into a bank, that is the bank's liability, and banks do not lend their liabilities. 

With the abolition of fractional cash reserves, they no longer need legal tender, except for those Lollards who still use cash. 

The deposited collateral becomes the banks assets as differentiated from a banks capital. 
If you want to know how much borrowers owe the banks, look at the assets they hold, and upon which they collect interest. 

The interest banks collect goes three ways. to pay for operations, to place into "reserves" for anticipated losses, and to pay dividends to shareholders. 
Note: Banks do not pay tax upon the amount held as reserves for anticipated losses. 

Regards
Ed G
Canada
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jan  3 05:22:20 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 12:22:20 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Social Entrepreneurship plus reference to Ashoka.
Message-ID: <111963.67072.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All,
?
??????????? Social entrepreneurship is not something which is particularly new but it is fortunately growing.?I ?would like to give reference to Ashoka too. 
?
http://www.ashoka.org/social_entrepreneur
?
?
http://socialentrepreneurship.change.org/
?
?
Robert Searle


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jan  3 05:38:53 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 12:38:53 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Galloway interviews a Banker!!!
Message-ID: <412743.76407.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All,
?
??????????? George Galloway MP interviewed a banker by the name of Oliver Kamm! The latter is a writer for the Times, UK. The interview was about Israel, and the present crisis. At one point Galloway said that bankers were thieves but Kamm percervered...!!! 
?
i thought the following by Kamm might be of interest.
?
?
Robert Searle
?
?
Bankers: No one likes them and we don't care
Aversion to moneylenders is nothing new, says a former investment banker. Now the credit crisis has given the demonology a whole new life



















Related Links



Bush plans $250bn seizure of bank stakes 


Has capitalism failed? 


I told you so: bankers are brainless 







So is it right to hate the bankers? They are the obvious target. And in many respects they deserve it. There have been scandalous recent cases of dishonesty. (A group of traders at Cr?dit Suisse were found earlier this year to have deliberately covered up losses to protect their bonuses.) Bankers have utterly failed to understand the business of raising capital. And there is something stomach-wrenching about bankers engaging in reckless behaviour, without bearing the costs of failure, while confident in the knowledge that as a sector - though not, as Fuld discovered, in every case - they will be bailed out by government and central banks. 
A defender of the City is hard to find. For some years I was part of the senior management of a pan-European investment bank. I spent much time at banking conferences and elsewhere, expounding the merits of universal banks that could provide customers with capital market products - a view I firmly hold. And among politicians, Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, is rare in extolling ?the huge benefits brought to this country by bankers and the City?. 
Bashing the bankers is so uncontroversial a stance that even the Church of England has abandoned the ambiguities it usually reserves for its social commentaries. The Archbishop of Canterbury refers scathingly to ?paper transactions with no concrete outcome beyond profit for traders?. The Archbishop of York, apparently confusing the messengers of bad news (hedge funds that sell banking stocks short) with the bankers whose strategies have destroyed wealth, inveighs against ?asset strippers and bank robbers?. 
But there is a disturbing undercurrent to the hostility to bankers. The sentiment long predates today's financial bust. Aversion to commerce is part of our history and culture. The Romantic movement lamented the despoliation of spiritual values by the business of, as Wordsworth put it, getting and spending. The workers' movement condemned the accumulation of wealth that also produced, in Marx's words, ?accumulation of misery, the torment of labour, slavery, ignorance, brutalisation and moral degradation?. Yet the image of the financial predator is more potent still. The industrialist, after all, makes something tangible, and the entrepreneur takes risks. There is no widespread public outcry against the personal wealth and business expansion of the Mittal steel dynasty, Bill Gates or Sir Richard Branson. 
The moneylenders, on the other hand, are regarded as parasitic even in a culture that celebrates commercial success. There are good reasons that bankers attract opprobrium in today's credit crisis. But it is important to separate those reasons from an uglier strain of thinking that has poisoned history and made cultured men deranged. The character of the moneylender is entrenched in the most important works of English literature. In the King James Bible, Matthew's Gospel relates that Jesus ?went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers.? When Shakespeare depicted the villainy of the moneylender Shylock in The Merchant of Venice, he dwelt on two traits. Shylock was a Jew and a usurer: he lent money at interest. Shylock's rival Antonio, by contrast, ?oft delivered from his forfeitures many that have at times made moan to me?. In effect, Antonio was taking the
 role of the central banker. He was the lender of last resort to those who could not meet their liabilities. And by lending without interest, to Shylock's disgust, Antonio ?brings down the rate of usance here with us in Venice?. 
The notion that those who lend money are exploitative in charging interest is deep rooted. Religious objections to usury have given rise even to a specialist business among some Western investment banks in providing financial services that conform to Islamic law. But the development of a global economy depended on the rise of the moneylenders. The Protestant work ethic superseded the biblical injunction to eschew riches. John Wesley preached on ?The Use of Money?, in which he urged the faithful to ?gain all we can without hurting our neighbour?. Jews historically had the professions barred to them, and naturally turned to banking and trade. Hostility to financiers was thus buttressed by more repulsive prejudices. 
Modern banking is associated with one name above all. The house of Rothschild was founded in Frankfurt by Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1743-1812). Through five scions of the founder, the name of Rothschild expanded across Europe. It reached its zenith under the leadership of Nathan Rothschild, who was born in 1840 and died in 1915, as the promise of the first great wave of globalisation was buried in the carnage of the Great War. 
Nathan Rothschild promoted three great causes: international finance, free trade and the gold standard as the guarantor of sound money. In the banking crises of that time, Rothschild acted to stabilise the financial system, much as central banks are trying to do now. When Baring Brothers was bankrupted by a default on Argentine debt, Rothschild rescued the bank to stabilise the financial system. The sheer scope of the Rothschilds' activities, which spanned national borders, sparked fierce political opposition. Among the most influential of 19th-century men of letters, Thomas Carlyle was reduced in his old age to standing outside the house of Nathan Rothschild, muttering imprecations. J.A. Hobson, the Liberal economist, still much-cited by modern Lib Dems, declared in 1902 that if the house of Rothschild were to oppose war, then no government could withstand it. This was a nice combination of populist beliefs - in the power of finance as against national
 governments and in the warmongering tendencies of big business. 
Across the Atlantic, the unaccountable power of bankers became a staple of populist campaigning too. The bankers insisted that the dollar needed to be backed by gold for the US to retain financial credibility. Against them, the three-times Democratic presidential nominee William Jennings Bryan denounced the gold standard for its deflationary effect on the incomes of farmers. ?You shall not,? he said, ?crucify mankind upon a cross of gold.? 
Yet the bankers - notably J.P. Morgan - were crucial to resolving the crisis of 1907, brought on by the failure of the Knickerbocker Trust Company. That threat to the banking system led to the creation of the Federal Reserve Board in 1913. Ironically, the central bankers proved to be far less prescient than the commercial bankers had been. Bankers were widely assumed to be the villains of the most severe financial crisis of the last century, the crash of 1929 and the Great Depression that followed. Charles E. Mitchell, the chairman of National City Bank, was hauled before the US Senate Subcommittee on Banking and Currency in 1933 to answer allegations of stock manipulation. Similar accusations were made against Albert H. Wiggin, the president of Chase National Bank. In Britain, the most striking financial scandal of the time was the collapse of the banking empire of Clarence Hatry, who was alleged to have forged share certificates that were used as
 collateral for loans. 
There is no question but that the stock market crash exposed some highly dubious and dishonest business practices. But the damage to the real economy was more a result of bad policy than financial malpractice. The White House and the Federal Reserve were determined to stamp out what President Hoover later described as the ?orgy of speculation?. To that end, monetary policy was tightened in the 1930s - the opposite of policy adopted after the 1987 stock market crash, when central banks slashed interest rates and flooded the financial system with liquidity. In 1987, at least, the policy worked: recession was averted. In the 1930s, monetary policy ensured that recession turned into something far worse - and the image of greedy bankers was entrenched in collective folklore. 
Financiers brought low by avarice are a recurring part of the financial landscape. The secondary banking crisis in 1973-74, when many small banks failed as a result of a collapse in property prices, exposed a culture of unsound lending and speculation as intense as today's. In the 1980s, the principal public villains were the arbitrageur Ivan Boesky, who was disgraced after he was shown to have been in receipt of inside information, and the junk-bond salesman. Michael Milken, who was jailed for securities fraud. 
But the financial crisis now is different. Regulators are dealing not with small institutions and individual miscreants, but with a systemic failure. There is always a risk of contagion in the banking sector because banks are linked to each other through the wholesale lending market. Banks borrow short-term, from each other, and lend long-term, in loans and mortgages. The collapse of one bank will lead - and has led - to a position where banks will not lend to each other, except at punitive interest rates, for fear of not getting the money bank. The liberalisation of the financial system, which has worked huge benefits in lifting millions of people out of poverty, is oddly vulnerable to a contagion of bad debts. Modern banks are now too big to fail - and this is driving the public mood. 
Public opinion may not grasp the jargon of financial markets, but it does express reasonable incredulity that top bankers have operated in a market where their own rewards are protected. In fact, ?market? is the wrong word. Boardroom pay has been set not by market forces but by committees, on the advice of consultants who may even be appointed by the executives whose pay is being decided. It is, in the phrase of the celebrated economist J.K. Galbraith, ?in the nature of a warm personal gesture by the individual to himself?. 
The bankers have, in short, played an essential role in the development of modern market economies. Hostility to financiers has an inglorious history encompassing anti-intellectualism, anti-Semitism and conspiracy theory. The stresses in the financial markets partly reflect bad policy decisions that made sense at the time - such as central banks keeping interest rates low after 9/11, and owing to the effect of Chinese imports in restraining inflation. But this time, there is a justifiable anger at the insouciance of the bankers, who irresponsibly exploited those decisions. The demonology has new life in it. 






	





	






Have your say





Have your say





as usual, the most vociferous complainers are in a state of ignorance (and getting your background info from cityboy is just desperate). those who borrowed and those who lent should both examine their consciences. most bankers are not gamblers.

jem, london, uk

All of these tribulations are based on GREED. 
Does anyone really think that with all the resources at hand that can be made use of by International Finance that they don't know how to take advantage of one of the basest instincts of humans? 
Look to the Ten Commandments.


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jan  3 05:42:09 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 12:42:09 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] An Update on the Electronic Currency System, or ECS?
In-Reply-To: <3562fb770901011036y3c0ce464ufb9fc47ecdda3a1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <75345.74447.qm@web27404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

? This message does not seem to have appeared on the discussion group....
?


--- On Thu, 1/1/09, Ashish Sharma <sharmaashis at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ashish Sharma <sharmaashis at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [GJM] An Update on the Electronic Currency System, or ECS?
To: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk, "Discussion Forum for Global Justice" <discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>
Date: Thursday, 1 January, 2009, 6:36 PM



A VERY HAPPY AND PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR FROM ELECTRONICCURRENCYTIME TEAM TO GJM AND ITS PARTICIPANTS,
Ashish Sharma


On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 9:28 AM, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:






?
Dear All,
?
?????????? I am wondering if Professor Purkayastha, and his team? might be good enough to fill us in with an update of their progress in trying to introduce ECS. I believe Dr. Muhammad Mukhtar Alam may have met with him. Perhaps he could kindly give us a brief report as to how things went??
?
Regards,
?
Robert Searle.
?
?

_______________________________________________
Discussion mailing list
Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
http://globaljusticemovement.net/mailman/listinfo/discussion_globaljusticemovement.net





      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jan  4 05:43:24 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 12:43:24 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [monetaryReform] inappropriate infophysics? Re:
	[InfoPhysics] complete truth and the monkey parable
In-Reply-To: <f2a3ba50901031000r26a0eb21ja3cb289529e0f394@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <777184.22608.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Sat, 3/1/09, Jim Whitescarver <jimscarver at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Jim Whitescarver <jimscarver at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [monetaryReform] inappropriate infophysics? Re: [InfoPhysics] complete truth and the monkey parable
To: monetaryReform at yahoogroups.com, infophysics at yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 3 January, 2009, 6:00 PM






Andrew,

Yes this did post. Thanks for the thoughts/links, it is good food for
thought.

I value operational trials over modeling generally though both are
needed. In the Anewgo new economy, for example, I don't want to make
the mistake of applying models that are incomplete as "the map is not
the territory".. Any finite models will eventually be proven wrong.
What is needed is for the feedback built into the system to correct
the system exponentially toward sustainable growth of value (away from
inflation, deflation, resourse depletion, etc.).

Jim
http://Wikiworld. com/AnewGo
http://MonetaryRefo rmAct.org
http://InformationP hysics.com
On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Andrew Bellon <andrew at jamieservice s.com> wrote:
>>
>> What is needed is a system that holistically serves to benefit of
>> humanity. In my efforts have dedicated myself to employ the
>> principles of objective information physics to work to that end, by
>> the application of objective principles to real systems rather than
>> the incomplete Platonic ideals that delude us. I would welcome any
>> feedback on how that might be done more effectively.
>>
>>
>
> Hi Jim and all --
>
> I have a book on Fractals. Feder, Jens, Fractals, Plenum Press, 1988. ISBN
> 0-306-42851- 2.
>
> I read it many years ago and without further study, but the possibly
> simplistic analogy of the money supply problem to the reservoir problem
> jumped at me. Thought I'd suggest.
>
> The system has hidden details in other forms of specific market valuation.
> influx = buying, discharge = selling, water level=
> fair market value? influx rate = velocity of money? perhaps quite a useful
> system could be constructed out of this analogy. Unfortunately, this is not
> my area of expertise.
>
> "The problem is to determine the design of an ideal reservoir based upon the
> given record of observed discharges from the lake. An ideal reservoir never
> overflows or empties. In any given year,t, such a reservoir will accept the
> influx, greek symbol xi(t), and a regulated volume per year (discharge),
> symbol subscript t, will be released from the reservoir. What storage would
> have been required for the reservoir to release a volume each year equal to
> the mean influx for the period under discussion?"
>
> He uses Hurst's rescaled range analysis which is described in a book "Long
> Term Storage: an experimental study (Hurst et al.,1965)
>
>
> an example of lake Albert discussed by Hurst is reviewed in Feder's book.
>
> Hurst spent a lifetime studying the Nile and problem related to water
> storage.
>
>
> Did you see Tony Bermanseder' s posting of that chapter of Pale Horse? There
> is expounded a very curious 19th cent electromagnetic economic theory that
> sounds out of Pynchon. Supposed to be textbook illuminati.
>
> http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ theoretical_ physics/message/ 5062
>
> "In economics these three energy concepts are associated with:
> Economic Capacitance - Capital (money, stock/inventory, investments in
> buildings and durables, etc.)
> Economic Conductance - Goods (production flow coefficients)
> Economic Inductance - Services (the influence of the population of industry
> on output)
>
> All of the mathematical theory developed in the study of one energy system
> (e.g., mechanics, electronics, etc.) can be immediately applied in the study
> of any other energy system (e.g., economics)."
>
> best regards,
> ab
>
>
>
>
>
> 
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jan  4 06:02:26 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 13:02:26 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] A Model Economiy Wiki
Message-ID: <523503.76472.qm@web27402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All,
?
?????????? This may be of interest.
?
?
?????????? http://webofdebt.wordpress.com/new-model-economy-wiki-feel-free-to-add-your-proposal/#comment-2090
?
?
Robert Searle


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jan  4 06:27:57 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 13:27:57 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] The Global Table to meet at the SES?
Message-ID: <378268.94024.qm@web27405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All,
?
????????????I am wondering when the global table will start meeting in one of the rooms of the School of Economic Science. I assume when decided the relevant details will appear on the Global Justice Movement.net website.
?
?
Regards
?
Robert Searle.


      
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From sharmaashis at gmail.com  Thu Jan  1 11:36:35 2009
From: sharmaashis at gmail.com (Ashish Sharma)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 10:36:35 -0800
Subject: [GJM] An Update on the Electronic Currency System, or ECS?
In-Reply-To: <864035.96166.qm@web27402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <864035.96166.qm@web27402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3562fb770901011036y3c0ce464ufb9fc47ecdda3a1@mail.gmail.com>

A VERY HAPPY AND PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR FROM ELECTRONICCURRENCYTIME TEAM TO GJM
AND ITS PARTICIPANTS,
Ashish Sharma

On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 9:28 AM, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>
> Dear All,
>
>            I am wondering if Professor Purkayastha, and his team  might be
> good enough to fill us in with an update of their progress in trying to
> introduce ECS. I believe Dr. Muhammad Mukhtar Alam may have met with him.
> Perhaps he could kindly give us a brief report as to how things went??
>
> Regards,
>
> Robert Searle.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discussion mailing list
> Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
>
> http://globaljusticemovement.net/mailman/listinfo/discussion_globaljusticemovement.net
>
>
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From jimscarver at gmail.com  Sun Jan  4 07:38:22 2009
From: jimscarver at gmail.com (Jim Whitescarver)
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 09:38:22 -0500
Subject: [GJM] Currency vs. money
In-Reply-To: <4f5894b0901040451g65ef74d3y457f6dca25ce4e7d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <443416.52412.qm@web56402.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<f2a3ba50812161302l5c95b76ay31c5ac8aa51d70cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<4f5894b0901040451g65ef74d3y457f6dca25ce4e7d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f2a3ba50901040638v15a4a273oa77736152f6ae0f5@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 7:51 AM, James Whitescarver <blixyz at gmail.com> wrote:
> It occurs to me that the practice of fractional lending is ideal when money
> is borrowed to build or develop something.
> Otherwise value has been created that is not represented in the supply of
> currency.  The result will be an inflated currency.
> Obviously we currently have the opposite problem, but I thought this point
> was worth discussion.

If value is indeed created as a result of a loan, the loan is paid
back and the money supply is decreased back to its prior level.  The
extra money is only available while the loan persists.

If no loan is requires to create a value there is no money added to
the money supply.

The real issue is that the amount of outstanding loans has nothing to
do with the amount of money needed in circulation.  Sever contractions
in the money supply always precede recessions and depressions.  The
problem is compounded because loans are not given in hard times.  In
boom times too many loans are given causing inflation.

Franklyn, Jefferson, Lincoln, Friedman, etc. said the money supply
should be sufficient to meet the buying and selling needs of the
public.  Tying it to debt ties us to ever increasing debt and ever
increasing interest.  There is only enough money created to pay the
loan but money is never created to pay the interest.  The result is
inevitable periodic collapse.  The money masters collect interest on
money created out of thin air in boom times, and gain ownership of our
property by defaults in hard times.

You point, James, is however reasonable from the perspective of where
does the capital come from to create new value.  Fractional reserve
need not be too bad if there is an independent balancing control on
the money supply.  It is only a problem when it controls the money
supply.

Also, we think the reserve is a percentage of deposits, but in
practice, this is not generally the case.  The situation is much
worse.  Consider a case where all the money is created out of thin
air..

You want to build a house and need to borrow $100k.  The bank does not
have enough reserves from deposits to cover the loan so it borrows
$10K from the Fed at 2% to put on reserve for your loan of $100K at
6%..  The bank makes 60% per year on the $10K it borrowed, or since it
never had any of the money to begin with it makes an infinite
percentage of its zero investment.

If you do not believe it works this way, see my references at
http://sites.google.com/a/monetaryreformact.org/monetary-reform-act/fractional-reserve-banking

This may seem like a perfect system if you are a banker, but how it is
perfect for the rest of us?  Even the banker is subject to the will of
the privately held federal reserve banks since they determine if they
get the loan and how much interest they pay.  Only activities and
investments approved by the money masters are funded.  Banks that do
not tow the line are not funded and forced to sell all their loans to
other banks.

> Without fractional lending, how is the money supply adjusted to reflect the
> value of building, development, and production of non-consumable products
> (intellectual property).

Again, the amount of debt on an asset has no necessary connection with
its value and the amount of money needed in circulation is not
connected to the amount of indebtedness.

Investment and capital partnerships will still fund development.
There is no reserve system in independent investment banks (are any
left?) and wealth management firms.

Your point is well taken that reserve lending itself is not the real
evil in the current monetary system.  The real issue is how the money
supply is controlled and who controls it to what end.

The real crime is that we pay taxes on income and sales to pay
interest to the money masters on money created out of thin air and are
forced into ever increasing debt and interest that is impossible to be
paid since money created as debt creates no money to pay the interest.

Jim
> JamesJr


From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  5 04:26:02 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:56:02 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] An Update on the Electronic Currency System, or ECS?
In-Reply-To: <75345.74447.qm@web27404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <937320.501.qm@web94911.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Dear Robert,
?
I had a telephonic conversation with Ashish few minutes ago. We would be meeting this Sunday and discuss more. I have noted your responses to ECS. Considering your appreciation to my presentation, I would like to have more discussion with Ashish on the weekend at my home.
?
Wishing all the best in the new year. May we help all ecologically respond to issues that appear to be transforming in war.
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam?

--- On Sat, 3/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [GJM] An Update on the Electronic Currency System, or ECS?
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Saturday, 3 January, 2009, 6:12 PM







? This message does not seem to have appeared on the discussion group.....
?


--- On Thu, 1/1/09, Ashish Sharma <sharmaashis at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ashish Sharma <sharmaashis at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [GJM] An Update on the Electronic Currency System, or ECS?
To: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk, "Discussion Forum for Global Justice" <discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>
Date: Thursday, 1 January, 2009, 6:36 PM



A VERY HAPPY AND PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR FROM ELECTRONICCURRENCYTIME TEAM TO GJM AND ITS PARTICIPANTS,
Ashish Sharma


On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 9:28 AM, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:






?
Dear All,
?
?????????? I am wondering if Professor Purkayastha, and his team? might be good enough to fill us in with an update of their progress in trying to introduce ECS. I believe Dr. Muhammad Mukhtar Alam may have met with him. Perhaps he could kindly give us a brief report as to how things went??
?
Regards,
?
Robert Searle.
?
?

_______________________________________________
Discussion mailing list
Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
http://globaljusticemovement.net/mailman/listinfo/discussion_globaljusticemovement.net



_______________________________________________
Discussion mailing list
Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan  5 05:03:23 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 12:03:23 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Global Energy Assessment
Message-ID: <460060.43962.qm@web27405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Dear All,
?
?????????? This may be of interest
?
?
http://www.simpol.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=91.msg369#new
?
?
R.Searle


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan  5 05:04:40 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 12:04:40 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Looking For Info
In-Reply-To: <COL113-W5489033A6F56C040437AD3A5E10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <748845.66702.qm@web27404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Mon, 5/1/09, helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Subject: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: socialcredit at elistas.com, socialcredit at fsbdial.co.uk
Cc: thtardif at hotmail.com, thtardif at sympatico.ca, mail at michaeljournal.org, versdemain at citenet.net, alainpilote at hotmail.com, michaeljournal at gmail.com, siebenthal at gmail.com
Date: Monday, 5 January, 2009, 12:17 AM




#yiv1834837150 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv1834837150 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

Hi All,
We are in the process of rebuilding the Social Credit Movement here in Alberta and we are looking for simple introductory material on Social Credit for people who have never heard about it before (99.8%), and who are not necessarily particularly interested in economics as a field of study. We would appreciate if any of you could direct us to suitable sources.
Thanking You,
Helge Nome
V.P. Communications,
Alberta Social Credit Party










Messenger wants to send you on a trip. Enter today. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan  5 05:27:39 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 12:27:39 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Towards a Free Matter Economy
Message-ID: <871705.82425.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All,
?
??????????? Maybe of interest.
?
?
http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/free_matter_economy
?
?
R.Searle
?
?
?


      
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From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  5 05:45:21 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 18:15:21 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] An Update on the Electronic Currency System, or ECS?
In-Reply-To: <864035.96166.qm@web27402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <531726.64423.qm@web94910.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Dear Robert,
?
Just few minutes ago, I wrote about talking to Ashish Sharma. I would like to note that it is Mr.S. Purkayastha I have been talking to and I would be meeting Mr. S.Purkayastha on the forthcoming weekend. I intend to have a detailed discussion on ECS and others.
?
Let us pray that more and more men and women have the sagacity to addressing the issues emerging out of the crash of usurious ,speculative finance system. G-20 meeting has failed. IFIs would not enough funds for bailouts. Higher unemployment rate would be remain a cause of concern. Let us pray for peaceful transition to ecologically safe ,socially cohesive , usury free finance system.
?
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam

--- On Thu, 1/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [GJM] An Update on the Electronic Currency System, or ECS?
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Thursday, 1 January, 2009, 10:58 PM







?
Dear All,
?
?????????? I am wondering if Professor Purkayastha, and his team? might be good enough to fill us in with an update of their progress in trying to introduce ECS. I believe Dr. Muhammad Mukhtar Alam may have met with him. Perhaps he could kindly give us a brief report as to how things went??
?
Regards,
?
Robert Searle.
?
?
_______________________________________________
Discussion mailing list
Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
http://globaljusticemovement.net/mailman/listinfo/discussion_globaljusticemovement.net



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From brock_moore at accountant.com  Sun Jan  4 10:56:33 2009
From: brock_moore at accountant.com (Brock Moore)
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 12:56:33 -0500
Subject: [GJM] Currency vs. money
Message-ID: <20090104175633.C15AE60690B@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>

 There is only enough money created to pay the loan but money is never
created to pay the interest.
----------------------------------------------------------

This is simply factually incorrect.  Banks create money not only in the
process of extending loans but when they credit transaction accounts for
any reason, such as  when they pay ordinary business expenses and
salaries and wages.  It is reciprocal economic activity in which the
banks are paying for goods and services being delivered to them, and the
public is paying for the financial services being supplied to them by the
banks.  From the money the public is receiving from the banks in payment
for goods and services being delivered by the public to the banks the
public uses to pay interest to the banks.  This is not a particularly
difficult concept to understand.

Brock

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Jim Whitescarver"
  [snipped]

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From jimscarver at gmail.com  Sun Jan  4 10:38:18 2009
From: jimscarver at gmail.com (Jim Whitescarver)
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 12:38:18 -0500
Subject: [GJM] Currency vs. money
In-Reply-To: <4f5894b0901040704x49dace6fx666396c4faebe80f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <443416.52412.qm@web56402.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<f2a3ba50812161302l5c95b76ay31c5ac8aa51d70cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<4f5894b0901040451g65ef74d3y457f6dca25ce4e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<f2a3ba50901040638v15a4a273oa77736152f6ae0f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4f5894b0901040704x49dace6fx666396c4faebe80f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f2a3ba50901040938r3fe4b184j82f9df6d24387bc8@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 10:04 AM, James Whitescarver
<james at whitescarver.com> wrote:
>> > It occurs to me that the practice of fractional lending is ideal when
>> > money  is borrowed to build or develop something.
>> > Otherwise value has been created that is not represented in the supply
>> > of currency.  The result will be an inflated currency.
>> > Obviously we currently have the opposite problem, but I thought this
>> > point was worth discussion.
>>
>> If value is indeed created as a result of a loan, the loan is paid
>> back and the money supply is decreased back to its prior level.  The
>> extra money is only available while the loan persists.
>
> Not at all true.  When the debt is paid, the bank has all of the money to
> re-lend toward more value creation- But now it is REAL money backed by the
> value it helped create.

This is another common misconception.  Sure the bank may be able to
lend money back into circulation just as it did in the first place,
but no real money is created anywhere in the system.  The simple fact
remains that money supply is reduced when loans are reduced.  There is
currently NO mechanism that creates real money and debt is the only
way to put money in circulation.

The monetary reform act will back outstanding loans with real money
and only allow loans of real money.  It solves the root of the issue
without exc3ess baggage or radical changes in bank operations.  It
will still require responsible government spending and taxing to fine
tune the money supply.

>> If no loan is required to create a value there is no money added to
>> the money supply.
>
> Correct.  This is why the government is still required to regulate
> currency.  Fractional lending toward value creation just makes their job a
> lot easier.  It is "automatic"
>>
>> Your point, James, is however reasonable from the perspective of where
>> does the capital come from to create new value.  Fractional reserve
>> need not be too bad if there is an independent balancing control on
>> the money supply.  It is only a problem when it controls the money
>> supply.
>
> Agreed.
>>
>> You want to build a house and need to borrow $100k.  The bank does not
>> have enough reserves from deposits to cover the loan so it borrows
>> $10K from the Fed at 2% to put on reserve for your loan of $100K at
>> 6%..  The bank makes 60% per year on the $10K it borrowed, or since it
>> never had any of the money to begin with it makes an infinite
>> percentage of its zero investment.
>
> I'm not advocating a status quo, just making a specific observation about
> the potential usefulness of fractional lending in a new monetary system.
> Specifically, that it automatically matches the value creation with REAL
> currency.

No, in only temporarily does so as explained above.  Only new loans
persist the value as money..  The total money supply is bounded by the
national debt and other debt created money.

The government issues securities and then spends the money.  It is
true that when the government pay back a bond the money may be still
in circulation.  Only the securities used as reserve by banks actually
creates new money.  But when the bond expires new bonds must be issued
as it is impossible to pay the bond and interest.  In addition
significant part of the US federal securities are held by China,
Russia and the middle east. Paying it back means it goes out
circulation in this country.

We are a debtor nation due to war, consumer spending has no effect.
As war is largely economically based, worldwide monetary reform is
required to stabilize the economy and create lasting value instead of
stuff that blows up.  Stabilizing our money supply is necessary first
step.  Instead of Federal Reserve notes, we need United States notes.
The Federal Reserve is neither federally owned, nor is it a reserve
system.

It is misleading however to think a bond issued is always bought by
anyone but the banks in general even when sold it still accounts for
deposits that represent new money in the banking system that goes away
in the banking system when the bond is paid.  Money in the banking
system is is not quite the same as the money in circulation which
causes some confusion, the money in circulation does not change when a
government bond is sold on the market, but the extra money in the
banking system allows more loans and thus more money in circulation.

"In purchasing offerings of Government bonds the banking system as a
whole creates new money, or bank deposits. When the banks buy a
billion dollars of Government bonds as they are offered...the banks
credit the deposit account of the Treasury with a billion dollars.
They debit their Government bond account a billion dollars, or they
actually create, by a bookkeeping entry, a billion dollars." MARRINER
ECCLES, Chairman Board of Governors, FED, 1935

You are correct, our focus must be replacing the money supply as debt,
and that the issue of an independent bank keeping a reserve on loans,
is a red herring, promoted by the money masters, to make us look
foolish.  The system is complex and we often simplify the whole system
as the "bank".   Many smaller banks would support reform such as the
Monetary Reform Act if they could go so without being subject to the
retribution of the money masters.  I believe there are better means of
capitalization available, but a "actual" reserve on loans is prudent,
so long a people have the freedom to take out a loan at interest, if
they choose to do so.

Jim
http://MonetaryReformAct.org

>> The real crime is that we pay taxes on income and sales to pay
>> interest to the money masters on money created out of thin air and are
>> forced into ever increasing debt and interest that is impossible to be
>> paid since money created as debt creates no money to pay the interest.
>
> Indeed.
> JamesJr
>
>


From jimscarver at gmail.com  Sun Jan  4 11:39:39 2009
From: jimscarver at gmail.com (Jim Whitescarver)
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 13:39:39 -0500
Subject: [GJM] [FixGov] WHY THE US ECONOMY WILL NOT RECOVER?
In-Reply-To: <3AB91B62AE934069A019152FA04188AA@BrucePorteouPC>
References: <3AB91B62AE934069A019152FA04188AA@BrucePorteouPC>
Message-ID: <f2a3ba50901041039r7ac764bdp615ad2229557bf9@mail.gmail.com>

Bruce brings up the excellent point that we will fold under the
national debt under the current monetary system.  But it is war that
causes the national debt, not private spending or private debt.
When government spends to create value, the value remains, when they
spend to blow things up, no value is created.  It is said that all war
is economic in origin, and it is the greatest creator of debt,
benefiting primarily those we allow to create our money from debt.

Mary raises the excellent point that mass consumerism, squandering
resources and generating garbage also does not create value in our
society.  Here again, our current monetary system requires constantly
increasing economic activity and debt for sustainence.

Both of these are a direct result of a monetary system that depends on
debt to control the money supply and escalating consumerism to
maintain economic viability.

With respect to the national debt, Thomas A. Edison stated the matter
this way: "If our Nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a
dollar bill. The element that makes the bond good makes the bill good
also. It is absurd to say that our country can issue $30 million in
bonds, and not $30 million in currency. Both are promises to pay: but
one promise fattens the usurer, and the other helps the people."

U.S. Constitution, states in Article 1, Section 8: `The Congress shall
have the power to coin money and regulate the value thereof.'

"If congress has the right under the Constitution to issue paper
money, it was  given them to use themselves, not to be delegated to
individuals or corporations." -Andrew Jackson

"The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency
and  credits needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government
and the buying power of  consumers. By the adoption of these
principles, the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest.
Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity."
-Abraham  Lincoln

"The modern theory of the perpetuation of debt has drenched the earth
with blood, and crushed its inhabitants under burdens ever
accumulating." -Thomas Jefferson

Woodrow Wilson signed the 1913 Federal Reserve Act. A few years later
he wrote: "I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my
country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of
credit. Our system of  credit is concentrated. The growth of the
nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few
men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most
completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world
no longer a  Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by
conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the
opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow  Wilson

"History records that the money changers have used every form of
abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their
control over governments by controlling money and its issuance."
-James Madison

"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who makes
its Laws." ANSELM MEYER ROTHSCHILD (owner of major world banks)

We are foolish to think we can do anything to improve the lot of
humanity as long as our government, education and media is owned by
the money masters.  The truth is we can pay off the national debt in a
year and take back our freedom, eliminate inflation and recession, and
get off the consumerism rat race if we enact monetary reform such as
the Monetary Reform Act.

The only reason we will not recover is if we are so bamboozled by the
money masters that we continue to allow them to control our economy.
Clearly responsible government spending and taxing is also required,
but that cannot be done when the government is owned by the money
masters.

Jim
http://MonetaryReformAct.org

On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 7:23 AM, Bruce Porteous
<bruceporteous50 at yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
> WHY THE US ECONOMY WILL NOT RECOVER?
>
> For some years I have been writing about the impending economic collapse of
> the USA and the Anglo-Saxon nations. This economic collapse is now
> unfolding. What will be the impact on the global economy, and can it be
> saved?
>
> The key reason why the world is facing this economic crisis is that some
> nations have been spending far more than they earn, while others have been
> accumulating large surpluses that can be invested in productive enterprises
> providing a genuine return on capital. These imbalances have created major
> distortions in the global economy with which the world is now coming to
> terms. While thousands of words have been written by economic analysts, this
> is the bottom line:
>
> The fundamental cause of the current global economic crisis is that for many
> years the Anglo-Saxon nations have been living way beyond their income,
> relying on borrowing money from their creditor nations to cover their trade
> and current account deficits. Our leaders have failed to warn their people
> that we could not live on borrowed currency indefinitely, and eventually we
> would be required to pay back the borrowed currency. Yet still they fail to
> face up to facts and tell the people that the Anglo-Saxon nations cannot
> continue maintaining their extravagant lifestyle financed by borrowing from
> the rest of the world.
>
> Our political leaders seldom mention the reality of having to earn export
> income to service their international balance of trade deficits. They have
> convinced themselves that our trading partners will continue to accept their
> printed money in return for their goods and services purchased. With the
> global economy now slipping into a deeper recession, the prospects of the
> Anglo-Saxon economies being able to trade their way out of their current
> economic morass grow bleaker by the day, as the export markets for goods and
> services from the Anglo-Saxon world disappear, making it impossible to repay
> their foreign creditors with anything but depreciating paper money.
>
> Recently, Britain, the USA, Australia and New Zealand governments have
> gambled by guaranteeing bank deposits to prevent a run on their banking
> systems.and partly to maintain confidence with their overseas creditors.
> They have created currency though the banking system to maintain adequate
> liquidity for the financial markets to remain operating, and have been
> willing to advance capital to the private sector to finance loss-making
> companies and financial institutions. What is not mentioned is that creating
> fiat currency to solve their immediate economic problems will not solve the
> long-term financial problems their nations face - it is like throwing fat on
> the fire, and will only lead to a more serious collapse of their currencies
> and economies.
>
> These governments approach the current crisis by encouraging the consumer to
> spend more to create demand for goods and services. Yet already many people
> are already struggling with the cost of servicing debt, and the only way out
> is to increase real incomes - something that is difficult in a contracting
> market, with rising costs. For governments to encourage their people to
> borrow and spend is like taking an alcoholic to the bar, and paying for his
> drinks, telling him to get drunk. As a result, they now run the risk of
> national bankruptcy, defaulting on their international debt obligations.
>
> Why has the world gotten itself into this economic crisis? Can the
> Anglo-Saxon nations recover from this financial train wreck? The media is
> filled with countless reports on the current economic crisis, what has
> caused it, and what the solutions could be. Yet none of these modern-day
> seers have been able to accurately answer the following questions: What are
> the causes of this economic crisis, what are the solutions, and what will
> happen?
>
> Many are hoping that there will be a recovery in the markets that will save
> us from a global economic collapse. Nearly all nations are desperately
> trying to stimulate economic activity through a mixture of government
> spending, borrowing, printing money and creating bank credit. Yet nothing
> appears to be working as the economic news around the world continues to
> worsen.
>
> Meanwhile several nations, especially Japan and China have put in place
> measures in an effort to stimulate their domestic economies. Those
> countries, which have the reserves to do this, may need to withdraw their
> investments from their Anglo-Saxon debtor nations to prop up their domestic
> economies. This will greatly affect the English-speaking nation's ability to
> revive their economies, which have become dependent on the inflow of capital
> from Asia to finance their banking systems. This would result in the
> collapse of the Anglo-Saxon banking system, unless they are nationalized by
> the governments who have guaranteed the deposits. The Western Governments
> themselves run the risk of becoming insolvent, and will be dependent on
> their Central Banks to create more credit for their banking institutions,
> resulting in debasing the value of the currencies.
>
> Many governments around the world have increased the supply of their
> currencies in a desperate attempt to save their economies from unraveling,
> resulting in massive unemployment, corporate collapses, government
> insolvencies, and personal bankruptcies. Will these measures work? While to
> date there is little sign that this government intervention has had any
> success, the amount of currency injected into the banking system is expected
> to have some short-term impact in the New Year. This will inflate paper
> asset values to prop up the collateral for the banking system. However, the
> biggest impact will be on the value of currency. Increasing the money supply
> without a corresponding increase in goods and services will result in
> debasing the value of that currency. Hyperinflation will quickly set in.
>
> There may well be a sharp but short recovery in the New Year as this flood
> of newly-created fiat currency finds its way into the consumer's pockets.
> Sadly, this recovery will only be short-lived as inflation takes hold and
> these paper notes depreciate in value. The American dollar as the world's
> major reserve currency will no longer be accepted in that role once
> inflation gains momentum and international creditors lose confidence in the
> US economy. The dollar will quickly spiral downwards in value to rival that
> of the Zimbabwe currency. The collapse of the dollar will result in the
> disintegration of the American society.
>
> There has been a failure on the part of the Anglo-Saxon nations (with the
> exception of Canada) in regard to addressing the cost of servicing their
> large and growing external debt and current account deficits. Inflating
> their currency supply will make it easier for those with dollar debts to
> repay them, but in the process it will destroy the confidence of their
> creditors who will suspend lending credits to cover their deficits. This
> will see the collapse of the US dollar along with several other currencies
> which run parallel to the USD in the global economy.
>
> What is occurring globally is a realignment of the major world economies
> with a shift in wealth away from the crumbling Anglo-Saxon economies to the
> Eurozone and the emerging Asian nations. What will this new economic order
> mean to the world?
>
> The Eurozone will be the region that will recover quickest. This region is
> the world's largest economy, and is able to create sufficient volume of
> trade internally enabling it to recover more quickly from the current
> recession than other economies. While most of the EU members are creating
> stimulus packages, Germany is adopting a more conservative approach,
> reluctant to inflate their money supply without an increase in productivity,
> having lived through the consequences of hyper-inflation in the past. It is
> Germany, the largest exporting nation in the world and the largest economy
> in the EU, which is sitting on generous foreign reserves. By taking a
> cautious approach, it will be in better position to provide the pillars for
> a strong Euro.
>
> There is no doubt that the export driven Asian economies will be severely
> affected by the collapse of the US economy and will take some-time to
> readjust by shifting to greater emphasis on trade within Asia and developing
> their domestic infrastructure. Increasing expenditure on the military is one
> option for those countries which have the resources to do so. In particular
> Japan, Germany and China may well decide to expand their defense budgets to
> create employment in their manufacturing sector to replace income from their
> declining export markets, to enable them to maintain their manufacturing
> base.
>
> The outcome will be a new world economic order, dominated by the Eurozone,
> lead by Germany. The new European power block will replace the dominance the
> Anglo-Saxon nations have held on the global economy for the last 200 years.
> The Euro is the only currency large enough to replace the $US as the world's
> reserve currency.
>
> Modern-day economists who believed that they could defy natural economic
> cycles through central bank and government intervention will be shown that
> their theories have failed.
>
> The Bible has given us specific economic laws that will ensure prosperous,
> sustained communities where the wealth is shared with equity and prosperity
> and can be in the reach of all mankind. In brief, these laws require debts
> to be written off every 7 years, interest not to be charged within domestic
> economies, investors to take equity investments rather than lend money, and
> if land is used as collateral it is to be returned to the original land
> owners after 50 years. Government and welfare to be funded with a flat tax
> not exceeding 14% of income.
>
> These economic laws have been provided to ensure we would have prosperity
> and equal distribution of wealth. It would mean that the parasitical banking
> system we have today would not be necessary. Institutions that have emerged
> such as hedge funds, future trading, derivates, and currency speculation
> would not have been able to develop under such laws.
>
> There will emerge a new world economic order from this crisis. There will
> emerge a new EU based World Central Bank (modeled along the lines of the
> ECB), which will restore global economic prosperity and order. This new
> institution will replace the World Bank, the Bank of International
> Settlements (BIS) and the IMF with the authority to regulate the global
> economy and direct capital into productive infrastructure ventures, rather
> than the Anglo-Saxon market-driven model that allowed capital to have the
> freedom to speculate rather than produce.
>
> This will mean a much more regulated economy than that with which we have
> become familiar, and many of the personal freedoms we now take for granted
> will be denied. In particular the debt-ridden Anglo-Saxon nations will be
> subjected to many regulations which will mean that the people will be
> subject to virtual slavery.
>
> The suffering of the people of Britain and the USA following their economic
> collapse will be sudden and far worse than many can imagine. Our people, who
> have had so much in the past, will find it very difficult living in
> third-world poverty, where they do not know where their next meal will come
> from, where there is a total break-down in law and order, and there is a
> complete social anarchy. The curse being bought upon the Anglo-Saxon people
> is a direct result of their rejection of the Law of God.
>
> The events now unfolding have historic significance. We are seeing the
> emergence of a new world order that will enforce the promulgation of a
> global economy, with one reserve currency. It will mean the end of many of
> the freedoms we now take for granted. It will be a time of great suffering
> for the Anglo-Saxon people as their economies collapse, and they face
> starvation, poverty and wide-spread disease. It will be the precursor for
> the time the Bible describes as the Great Tribulation.
>
> Bruce Porteous
>
> 1 Jan, 2009
>
> Bruceporteous50 at yahoo.co.nz
>
On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 12:36 PM, Mary Rose <maryrose333 at att.net> wrote:
>
> A more succinct reason and easier to deal with as far as finding a
> solution is:
>
> In the years since the end of World War II, the U.S became the most
> prosperous nation in the history of the world. At the same time it
> created more environmental damage than at any time in all of prerecorded
> history. And still the environmental rape continues. Quite a record --
> we should be proud of ourselves. The other industrialized nations are
> not far behind.
>
> Through extraction and other means we have now exceeded the amount of
> Earth's resources so that by the Year 2050 we will need .5 more Earth
> space to provide for our needs. This means the ecological bank account
> is already overdrawn and we are living on "0". Some put it this way: It
> is like we are taking the blocks from the foundation and basement of the
> house and using them to build additional stories on the upper part.
> This is a recipe for disaster as anyone in their right mind can figure
> out.
>
> In 1997, Jeremy Rifkin wrote his book: "The End of Work". In it he gave
> the statistics that at that time, due to technological advances, it took
> only 30% of the worldwide laborforce to produce all of the goods and
> services necessary for the 6 billion people on the Earth. He also
> predicted that as we moved into nanotechnology and bio-mimicry in order
> to "do more with less" and conserve the Earth's resources, the need for
> human labor would be reduced to approximately 3 - 4% of the world's
> available laborforce. We are fast reaching this point. And, while some
> want to do away with technology and revert back to human labor, the
> truth of the matter is that human labor can no longer perform the
> necessary tasks as human hands are too large.
>
> Back in the mid 1990's the markets became de-linked from human labor as
> passive investments began to give a greater return than did labor.
> Automated assembly lines are "capital investments" and thus provide for
> a tax deduction whereas human labor carries a lot of baggage with it in
> terms of costs: e.g., require personnel departments, lunch and other
> break rooms, alone with parking space for cars; work only an 8-hour day,
> and require time and a half for overtime; require payroll checks and
> accounting; require vacation time, sick leave, etc.; require on-the-job
> and other training programs. These "add-on" costs have to be included
> in the cost-to- income-ratio and in many instances, cannot provide the
> ROI (return on investment) ratio desired by investors.
>
> Due to the high costs of labor in the industrialized nations, and
> especially in the United States, companies are forced to "off-shore"
> their operations and seek the lowest labor rates in order to bring about
> the bottom line profit ratio desired by investors. Thus labor rates
> must be lower than the costs of automation.
>
> For many years, the automotive industry with all its "side products"
> carried the U.S. economy providing for a large number of jobs. However,
> in order for the auto industry to stay viable, built-in obsolesence had
> to be a part of the plan so people would keep buying new cars and
> replacing parts in order to keep the ball rolling. Now that we are
> already "over the cliff" in terms of our ecological debt, and need to
> cut consumption due to resource depletion, any autos manufactured must
> be made to last as long as possible.
>
> In his book, "The Third Wave," Alvin Toffler also provies the
> information that it would be more cost effective and efficient to "pay
> people to stay home" rather than to transport them to work in office
> buildings and industrial parks, or to shopping malls, schools, etc.
> When the high costs of purchasing land, constructing the buildings,
> putting in streets, roadways, etc., necessary to get people back and
> forth are all factored in, and added to the costs of maintaining the
> buildings, supplying them with electricity, water, etc., covering them
> with insurance costs, landscaping maintenance costs, etc., are all
> factored in the "electronic cottage" as envisioned by Toffler makes good
> sense.
>
> Currently, the U.S. economy is based on production for military means;
> however, people are demanding an end to war, putting goverment and
> society at odds with one another as govenment seeks ways to continue war
> and genocide as a way of alleviating the labor stuggle.
>
> As we can readily see from this overview, we can no longer afford the
> present social structure. The current economic crisis we are seeing is
> a result of practices that are not sustainable over the long run. We
> cannot live on economic bubbles and things must change. Well known
> management expert Peter Drucker, wrote in the Harvard Review a few years
> ago "we must prepare to *abandon* everything. Notice that Mr. Drucker
> used the no-baloney word abandon -- he did not say "change". He also
> continued to write that "there is no placid backwater in which one can
> sit this one out."
>
> So, from analysing the above, when I hear politicians and government
> officials talking about creating jobs, whether they be green jobs or
> otherwise, I know that these are baloney words and the bread on which
> they are served is getting old, stale and crumbly.
>
> We must find another way, and that way must be through sustainable
> means. And, in my humble opinion the first thing we need to do is to
> define what sustainable means and in no baloney terms. Many companies
> are using "green-washing" to cover up the same old means of production
> and consumption and it simply won't work.
>
> The real reason why the U.S. economy will not recover is because it is
> outdated. We need a new economy. That is if we hope to continue to make
> this Earth our home.
>
> From the desk of: mary rose
>
> FutureDawning.org
>
> After suffering a horrific computer crash, it has taken me a couple
> months to get back online. However in the interim time I have made
> great strides in getting FutureDawning.org underway. Instead of the
> Co-Learner's list, I will be writing a weekly or semi-weekly blog so
> taht we can reach more people. I have now expanded my contact list to
> 1,085 people worldwide and will continue until that figure reaches 1
> million. But today, Bruce's article caught my eye and since I am
> currently engaged in putting these figures together for the Steering
> Committee for FutureDawning.org, felt like writing and publishing them
> here.


From hermann at picknowl.com.au  Sun Jan  4 20:38:40 2009
From: hermann at picknowl.com.au (John Hermann)
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 14:08:40 +1030
Subject: [GJM] Currency vs. money
In-Reply-To: <f2a3ba50901040638v15a4a273oa77736152f6ae0f5@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <443416.52412.qm@web56402.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<f2a3ba50812161302l5c95b76ay31c5ac8aa51d70cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<4f5894b0901040451g65ef74d3y457f6dca25ce4e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<f2a3ba50901040638v15a4a273oa77736152f6ae0f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200901050338.n053cgPX030267@mail11.tpg.com.au>

At 01:08 AM 5/01/2009, Jim Whitscarver wrote:
>There is only enough money created to pay the loan but money is 
>never created to pay the interest.  The result is inevitable 
>periodic collapse.  The money masters collect interest on money 
>created out of thin air in boom times, and gain ownership of our 
>property by defaults in hard times.


Evidently Jim believes the debt virus hypothesis, which asserts 
either that all bank interest income is (a) held (or invested) 
entirely within the banking system, or (b) loaned back into the 
economy (at interest), or alternatively (c) spent back into the 
economy with however a time lag which creates a shortage of money 
required for paying interest.

By and large these assertions are misinformed and false.  A glance at 
the balance sheet and end-of-year report of any bank will confirm 
that between 97% and 99% of gross bank interest income is spent (not 
loaned) back into the economy.  Moreover, there is no time lag in the 
aggregate - the flow of money into and out of the banking system as a 
whole (i.e., out of and into the real economy) is continuous and 
uninterrupted.

The overwhelming part (96 percent or greater) of bank interest income 
is directed into paying interest to the bank's time depositors, 
dividends to its shareholders, tax to the government, salaries to the 
bank's employees, overheads, and other costs.  Of course, interest 
remains a powerful mechanism for distributing wealth upwards, ie from 
the poor to the rich.  That is an important consideration in how we 
should run the economy, but it is a separate issue.  At most 3-4 
percent of bank income is retained within the banking environment 
(ie, outside the money supply) as "retained earnings".  This small 
fraction of bank income contributes to the growth in bank capital, 
and contributes to the bank's ability to create new monetary assets.

John Hermann


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From maryrose333 at att.net  Mon Jan  5 17:15:09 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:15:09 -0800
Subject: [GJM] [FixGov] WHY THE US ECONOMY WILL NOT RECOVER?
In-Reply-To: <f2a3ba50901041039r7ac764bdp615ad2229557bf9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3AB91B62AE934069A019152FA04188AA@BrucePorteouPC>
	<f2a3ba50901041039r7ac764bdp615ad2229557bf9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c96f93$d76b5120$8641f360$@net>

Hi Everyone, After a couple month's absence, am back again but only to talk
about FutureDawning.org which I have been working on the last couple months.
Due to a computer crash we are still not ready to launch the site. But the
good news is that in the interim the organization grew spontaneously and the
original FLASH site is now too small to meet our needs. 

Anyway, my contributions from now on will be in the form of a Blog and a
Newsletter associated with FutureDawning.org. The site is designed as both a
"think tank" and a "learning center". Twelve websites/campuses on NING.com
will provide us the space into which we may introduce Portals and Pathways
that will guide us into a future. These campuses will be accomplished by a
design of "we-the-people" using "Management by Design" as a guide to get
where we want to go.  And the Management by Design program will be written
by the student members of the virtual website campus. Just like the Earth
and the rest of the Universe, the FutureDawning.org site and all of its
components are "self-organizing." So, there are no "teachers" here and
everything is set up so that the people who join each campus, called Portals
and Pathways, have to design their own programs. There will be 12 Portals
and Pathways initially with the first one being "Sustainable Living Pathway
and Portal." Of importance to this group is that one of the 12 campuses is
called "Monetary Reform Pathway and Portal." So individuals and groups may
join this particular campus and the form smaller groups around which to
actually design a new monetary program, or a sustainable living community,
or an alternative energy program, etc. 

FutureDawning.org will provide links to websites that provide the
information necessary to create the programs, and will provide a list of
experienced "mentors" to whom students may turn to for aid if need be.
However, students are not restricted in their choices. Actually, the campus
is designed like a game in which all my join and play while finding out
"what works" and "what doesn't work". So this is going to be fun as well as
challenging.  The 'think tank' part is to get everyone engaged in
"brain-storming" and thinking up new and creative ways to do things that are
"out of the box"
And which can take humanity to the next level of consciousness. So, the
potential here is limited only by one's imagination. 

Membership in FutureDawning.org is by invitation only and new members must
fill out an application form. However, once a member, you can invite others,
but approval of each member must be made by the Portal's and Pathway's
Administrator . The application form will ask the R. Buckminster Fuller
Question: If the survival of the planet is dependent upon you, who you are,
and what you do, who will you be and what will you do? This is no longer a
theoretical question. We do this to ensure that everyone on board is fully
committed to the task at hand and all members can be counted on to do their
part. 

May the games soon begin.  

------------------------------------
>From the desk of 
Mary Rose
Maryrose333 at att.net   
_ _ _ _ _ _ _  _  _  _  _ _ _ _  _ _ 

-----Original Message-----
From: discussion-bounces at globaljusticemovement.net
[mailto:discussion-bounces at globaljusticemovement.net] On Behalf Of Jim
Whitescarver
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 10:40 AM
To: FixGov at yahoogroups.com; monetary reform; Discussion Forum for Global
Justice
Cc: Franklin Whitescarver
Subject: Re: [GJM] [FixGov] WHY THE US ECONOMY WILL NOT RECOVER?

Bruce brings up the excellent point that we will fold under the
national debt under the current monetary system.  But it is war that
causes the national debt, not private spending or private debt.
When government spends to create value, the value remains, when they
spend to blow things up, no value is created.  It is said that all war
is economic in origin, and it is the greatest creator of debt,
benefiting primarily those we allow to create our money from debt.

Mary raises the excellent point that mass consumerism, squandering
resources and generating garbage also does not create value in our
society.  Here again, our current monetary system requires constantly
increasing economic activity and debt for sustainence.

Both of these are a direct result of a monetary system that depends on
debt to control the money supply and escalating consumerism to
maintain economic viability.

With respect to the national debt, Thomas A. Edison stated the matter
this way: "If our Nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a
dollar bill. The element that makes the bond good makes the bill good
also. It is absurd to say that our country can issue $30 million in
bonds, and not $30 million in currency. Both are promises to pay: but
one promise fattens the usurer, and the other helps the people."

U.S. Constitution, states in Article 1, Section 8: `The Congress shall
have the power to coin money and regulate the value thereof.'

"If congress has the right under the Constitution to issue paper
money, it was  given them to use themselves, not to be delegated to
individuals or corporations." -Andrew Jackson

"The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency
and  credits needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government
and the buying power of  consumers. By the adoption of these
principles, the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest.
Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity."
-Abraham  Lincoln

"The modern theory of the perpetuation of debt has drenched the earth
with blood, and crushed its inhabitants under burdens ever
accumulating." -Thomas Jefferson

Woodrow Wilson signed the 1913 Federal Reserve Act. A few years later
he wrote: "I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my
country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of
credit. Our system of  credit is concentrated. The growth of the
nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few
men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most
completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world
no longer a  Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by
conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the
opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow  Wilson

"History records that the money changers have used every form of
abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their
control over governments by controlling money and its issuance."
-James Madison

"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who makes
its Laws." ANSELM MEYER ROTHSCHILD (owner of major world banks)

We are foolish to think we can do anything to improve the lot of
humanity as long as our government, education and media is owned by
the money masters.  The truth is we can pay off the national debt in a
year and take back our freedom, eliminate inflation and recession, and
get off the consumerism rat race if we enact monetary reform such as
the Monetary Reform Act.

The only reason we will not recover is if we are so bamboozled by the
money masters that we continue to allow them to control our economy.
Clearly responsible government spending and taxing is also required,
but that cannot be done when the government is owned by the money
masters.

Jim
http://MonetaryReformAct.org

On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 7:23 AM, Bruce Porteous
<bruceporteous50 at yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
> WHY THE US ECONOMY WILL NOT RECOVER?
>
> For some years I have been writing about the impending economic collapse
of
> the USA and the Anglo-Saxon nations. This economic collapse is now
> unfolding. What will be the impact on the global economy, and can it be
> saved?
>
> The key reason why the world is facing this economic crisis is that some
> nations have been spending far more than they earn, while others have been
> accumulating large surpluses that can be invested in productive
enterprises
> providing a genuine return on capital. These imbalances have created major
> distortions in the global economy with which the world is now coming to
> terms. While thousands of words have been written by economic analysts,
this
> is the bottom line:
>
> The fundamental cause of the current global economic crisis is that for
many
> years the Anglo-Saxon nations have been living way beyond their income,
> relying on borrowing money from their creditor nations to cover their
trade
> and current account deficits. Our leaders have failed to warn their people
> that we could not live on borrowed currency indefinitely, and eventually
we
> would be required to pay back the borrowed currency. Yet still they fail
to
> face up to facts and tell the people that the Anglo-Saxon nations cannot
> continue maintaining their extravagant lifestyle financed by borrowing
from
> the rest of the world.
>
> Our political leaders seldom mention the reality of having to earn export
> income to service their international balance of trade deficits. They have
> convinced themselves that our trading partners will continue to accept
their
> printed money in return for their goods and services purchased. With the
> global economy now slipping into a deeper recession, the prospects of the
> Anglo-Saxon economies being able to trade their way out of their current
> economic morass grow bleaker by the day, as the export markets for goods
and
> services from the Anglo-Saxon world disappear, making it impossible to
repay
> their foreign creditors with anything but depreciating paper money.
>
> Recently, Britain, the USA, Australia and New Zealand governments have
> gambled by guaranteeing bank deposits to prevent a run on their banking
> systems.and partly to maintain confidence with their overseas creditors.
> They have created currency though the banking system to maintain adequate
> liquidity for the financial markets to remain operating, and have been
> willing to advance capital to the private sector to finance loss-making
> companies and financial institutions. What is not mentioned is that
creating
> fiat currency to solve their immediate economic problems will not solve
the
> long-term financial problems their nations face - it is like throwing fat
on
> the fire, and will only lead to a more serious collapse of their
currencies
> and economies.
>
> These governments approach the current crisis by encouraging the consumer
to
> spend more to create demand for goods and services. Yet already many
people
> are already struggling with the cost of servicing debt, and the only way
out
> is to increase real incomes - something that is difficult in a contracting
> market, with rising costs. For governments to encourage their people to
> borrow and spend is like taking an alcoholic to the bar, and paying for
his
> drinks, telling him to get drunk. As a result, they now run the risk of
> national bankruptcy, defaulting on their international debt obligations.
>
> Why has the world gotten itself into this economic crisis? Can the
> Anglo-Saxon nations recover from this financial train wreck? The media is
> filled with countless reports on the current economic crisis, what has
> caused it, and what the solutions could be. Yet none of these modern-day
> seers have been able to accurately answer the following questions: What
are
> the causes of this economic crisis, what are the solutions, and what will
> happen?
>
> Many are hoping that there will be a recovery in the markets that will
save
> us from a global economic collapse. Nearly all nations are desperately
> trying to stimulate economic activity through a mixture of government
> spending, borrowing, printing money and creating bank credit. Yet nothing
> appears to be working as the economic news around the world continues to
> worsen.
>
> Meanwhile several nations, especially Japan and China have put in place
> measures in an effort to stimulate their domestic economies. Those
> countries, which have the reserves to do this, may need to withdraw their
> investments from their Anglo-Saxon debtor nations to prop up their
domestic
> economies. This will greatly affect the English-speaking nation's ability
to
> revive their economies, which have become dependent on the inflow of
capital
> from Asia to finance their banking systems. This would result in the
> collapse of the Anglo-Saxon banking system, unless they are nationalized
by
> the governments who have guaranteed the deposits. The Western Governments
> themselves run the risk of becoming insolvent, and will be dependent on
> their Central Banks to create more credit for their banking institutions,
> resulting in debasing the value of the currencies.
>
> Many governments around the world have increased the supply of their
> currencies in a desperate attempt to save their economies from unraveling,
> resulting in massive unemployment, corporate collapses, government
> insolvencies, and personal bankruptcies. Will these measures work? While
to
> date there is little sign that this government intervention has had any
> success, the amount of currency injected into the banking system is
expected
> to have some short-term impact in the New Year. This will inflate paper
> asset values to prop up the collateral for the banking system. However,
the
> biggest impact will be on the value of currency. Increasing the money
supply
> without a corresponding increase in goods and services will result in
> debasing the value of that currency. Hyperinflation will quickly set in.
>
> There may well be a sharp but short recovery in the New Year as this flood
> of newly-created fiat currency finds its way into the consumer's pockets.
> Sadly, this recovery will only be short-lived as inflation takes hold and
> these paper notes depreciate in value. The American dollar as the world's
> major reserve currency will no longer be accepted in that role once
> inflation gains momentum and international creditors lose confidence in
the
> US economy. The dollar will quickly spiral downwards in value to rival
that
> of the Zimbabwe currency. The collapse of the dollar will result in the
> disintegration of the American society.
>
> There has been a failure on the part of the Anglo-Saxon nations (with the
> exception of Canada) in regard to addressing the cost of servicing their
> large and growing external debt and current account deficits. Inflating
> their currency supply will make it easier for those with dollar debts to
> repay them, but in the process it will destroy the confidence of their
> creditors who will suspend lending credits to cover their deficits. This
> will see the collapse of the US dollar along with several other currencies
> which run parallel to the USD in the global economy.
>
> What is occurring globally is a realignment of the major world economies
> with a shift in wealth away from the crumbling Anglo-Saxon economies to
the
> Eurozone and the emerging Asian nations. What will this new economic order
> mean to the world?
>
> The Eurozone will be the region that will recover quickest. This region is
> the world's largest economy, and is able to create sufficient volume of
> trade internally enabling it to recover more quickly from the current
> recession than other economies. While most of the EU members are creating
> stimulus packages, Germany is adopting a more conservative approach,
> reluctant to inflate their money supply without an increase in
productivity,
> having lived through the consequences of hyper-inflation in the past. It
is
> Germany, the largest exporting nation in the world and the largest economy
> in the EU, which is sitting on generous foreign reserves. By taking a
> cautious approach, it will be in better position to provide the pillars
for
> a strong Euro.
>
> There is no doubt that the export driven Asian economies will be severely
> affected by the collapse of the US economy and will take some-time to
> readjust by shifting to greater emphasis on trade within Asia and
developing
> their domestic infrastructure. Increasing expenditure on the military is
one
> option for those countries which have the resources to do so. In
particular
> Japan, Germany and China may well decide to expand their defense budgets
to
> create employment in their manufacturing sector to replace income from
their
> declining export markets, to enable them to maintain their manufacturing
> base.
>
> The outcome will be a new world economic order, dominated by the Eurozone,
> lead by Germany. The new European power block will replace the dominance
the
> Anglo-Saxon nations have held on the global economy for the last 200
years.
> The Euro is the only currency large enough to replace the $US as the
world's
> reserve currency.
>
> Modern-day economists who believed that they could defy natural economic
> cycles through central bank and government intervention will be shown that
> their theories have failed.
>
> The Bible has given us specific economic laws that will ensure prosperous,
> sustained communities where the wealth is shared with equity and
prosperity
> and can be in the reach of all mankind. In brief, these laws require debts
> to be written off every 7 years, interest not to be charged within
domestic
> economies, investors to take equity investments rather than lend money,
and
> if land is used as collateral it is to be returned to the original land
> owners after 50 years. Government and welfare to be funded with a flat tax
> not exceeding 14% of income.
>
> These economic laws have been provided to ensure we would have prosperity
> and equal distribution of wealth. It would mean that the parasitical
banking
> system we have today would not be necessary. Institutions that have
emerged
> such as hedge funds, future trading, derivates, and currency speculation
> would not have been able to develop under such laws.
>
> There will emerge a new world economic order from this crisis. There will
> emerge a new EU based World Central Bank (modeled along the lines of the
> ECB), which will restore global economic prosperity and order. This new
> institution will replace the World Bank, the Bank of International
> Settlements (BIS) and the IMF with the authority to regulate the global
> economy and direct capital into productive infrastructure ventures, rather
> than the Anglo-Saxon market-driven model that allowed capital to have the
> freedom to speculate rather than produce.
>
> This will mean a much more regulated economy than that with which we have
> become familiar, and many of the personal freedoms we now take for granted
> will be denied. In particular the debt-ridden Anglo-Saxon nations will be
> subjected to many regulations which will mean that the people will be
> subject to virtual slavery.
>
> The suffering of the people of Britain and the USA following their
economic
> collapse will be sudden and far worse than many can imagine. Our people,
who
> have had so much in the past, will find it very difficult living in
> third-world poverty, where they do not know where their next meal will
come
> from, where there is a total break-down in law and order, and there is a
> complete social anarchy. The curse being bought upon the Anglo-Saxon
people
> is a direct result of their rejection of the Law of God.
>
> The events now unfolding have historic significance. We are seeing the
> emergence of a new world order that will enforce the promulgation of a
> global economy, with one reserve currency. It will mean the end of many of
> the freedoms we now take for granted. It will be a time of great suffering
> for the Anglo-Saxon people as their economies collapse, and they face
> starvation, poverty and wide-spread disease. It will be the precursor for
> the time the Bible describes as the Great Tribulation.
>
> Bruce Porteous
>
> 1 Jan, 2009
>
> Bruceporteous50 at yahoo.co.nz
>
On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 12:36 PM, Mary Rose <maryrose333 at att.net> wrote:
>
> A more succinct reason and easier to deal with as far as finding a
> solution is:
>
> In the years since the end of World War II, the U.S became the most
> prosperous nation in the history of the world. At the same time it
> created more environmental damage than at any time in all of prerecorded
> history. And still the environmental rape continues. Quite a record --
> we should be proud of ourselves. The other industrialized nations are
> not far behind.
>
> Through extraction and other means we have now exceeded the amount of
> Earth's resources so that by the Year 2050 we will need .5 more Earth
> space to provide for our needs. This means the ecological bank account
> is already overdrawn and we are living on "0". Some put it this way: It
> is like we are taking the blocks from the foundation and basement of the
> house and using them to build additional stories on the upper part.
> This is a recipe for disaster as anyone in their right mind can figure
> out.
>
> In 1997, Jeremy Rifkin wrote his book: "The End of Work". In it he gave
> the statistics that at that time, due to technological advances, it took
> only 30% of the worldwide laborforce to produce all of the goods and
> services necessary for the 6 billion people on the Earth. He also
> predicted that as we moved into nanotechnology and bio-mimicry in order
> to "do more with less" and conserve the Earth's resources, the need for
> human labor would be reduced to approximately 3 - 4% of the world's
> available laborforce. We are fast reaching this point. And, while some
> want to do away with technology and revert back to human labor, the
> truth of the matter is that human labor can no longer perform the
> necessary tasks as human hands are too large.
>
> Back in the mid 1990's the markets became de-linked from human labor as
> passive investments began to give a greater return than did labor.
> Automated assembly lines are "capital investments" and thus provide for
> a tax deduction whereas human labor carries a lot of baggage with it in
> terms of costs: e.g., require personnel departments, lunch and other
> break rooms, alone with parking space for cars; work only an 8-hour day,
> and require time and a half for overtime; require payroll checks and
> accounting; require vacation time, sick leave, etc.; require on-the-job
> and other training programs. These "add-on" costs have to be included
> in the cost-to- income-ratio and in many instances, cannot provide the
> ROI (return on investment) ratio desired by investors.
>
> Due to the high costs of labor in the industrialized nations, and
> especially in the United States, companies are forced to "off-shore"
> their operations and seek the lowest labor rates in order to bring about
> the bottom line profit ratio desired by investors. Thus labor rates
> must be lower than the costs of automation.
>
> For many years, the automotive industry with all its "side products"
> carried the U.S. economy providing for a large number of jobs. However,
> in order for the auto industry to stay viable, built-in obsolesence had
> to be a part of the plan so people would keep buying new cars and
> replacing parts in order to keep the ball rolling. Now that we are
> already "over the cliff" in terms of our ecological debt, and need to
> cut consumption due to resource depletion, any autos manufactured must
> be made to last as long as possible.
>
> In his book, "The Third Wave," Alvin Toffler also provies the
> information that it would be more cost effective and efficient to "pay
> people to stay home" rather than to transport them to work in office
> buildings and industrial parks, or to shopping malls, schools, etc.
> When the high costs of purchasing land, constructing the buildings,
> putting in streets, roadways, etc., necessary to get people back and
> forth are all factored in, and added to the costs of maintaining the
> buildings, supplying them with electricity, water, etc., covering them
> with insurance costs, landscaping maintenance costs, etc., are all
> factored in the "electronic cottage" as envisioned by Toffler makes good
> sense.
>
> Currently, the U.S. economy is based on production for military means;
> however, people are demanding an end to war, putting goverment and
> society at odds with one another as govenment seeks ways to continue war
> and genocide as a way of alleviating the labor stuggle.
>
> As we can readily see from this overview, we can no longer afford the
> present social structure. The current economic crisis we are seeing is
> a result of practices that are not sustainable over the long run. We
> cannot live on economic bubbles and things must change. Well known
> management expert Peter Drucker, wrote in the Harvard Review a few years
> ago "we must prepare to *abandon* everything. Notice that Mr. Drucker
> used the no-baloney word abandon -- he did not say "change". He also
> continued to write that "there is no placid backwater in which one can
> sit this one out."
>
> So, from analysing the above, when I hear politicians and government
> officials talking about creating jobs, whether they be green jobs or
> otherwise, I know that these are baloney words and the bread on which
> they are served is getting old, stale and crumbly.
>
> We must find another way, and that way must be through sustainable
> means. And, in my humble opinion the first thing we need to do is to
> define what sustainable means and in no baloney terms. Many companies
> are using "green-washing" to cover up the same old means of production
> and consumption and it simply won't work.
>
> The real reason why the U.S. economy will not recover is because it is
> outdated. We need a new economy. That is if we hope to continue to make
> this Earth our home.
>
> From the desk of: mary rose
>
> FutureDawning.org
>
> After suffering a horrific computer crash, it has taken me a couple
> months to get back online. However in the interim time I have made
> great strides in getting FutureDawning.org underway. Instead of the
> Co-Learner's list, I will be writing a weekly or semi-weekly blog so
> taht we can reach more people. I have now expanded my contact list to
> 1,085 people worldwide and will continue until that figure reaches 1
> million. But today, Bruce's article caught my eye and since I am
> currently engaged in putting these figures together for the Steering
> Committee for FutureDawning.org, felt like writing and publishing them
> here.

_______________________________________________
Discussion mailing list
Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
http://globaljusticemovement.net/mailman/listinfo/discussion_globaljusticemo
vement.net



From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan  6 03:27:43 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:27:43 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Announcement and flier
In-Reply-To: <85c22d30dc30688341a2a875bcdc1fa0@mwt.net>
Message-ID: <18786.8439.qm@web27404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Mon, 5/1/09, Kim Chotzen <kimchotzenevents at mwt.net> wrote:

From: Kim Chotzen <kimchotzenevents at mwt.net>
Subject: Announcement and flier
To: CHB.Contacts at gadget.mwt.net
Date: Monday, 5 January, 2009, 4:20 PM

Dear Friend,

I am writing to let you know about the upcoming Colors of Money seminar to be
held in Viroqua in February. It is my pleasure to enclose the flier and I
apologize if you have already received it by other channels.

This seminar will be different in mode to previous ones in that it is jointly
sponsored by myself and Christopher Houghton Budd as part of our work within the
Economics Conference of the Goetheanum. We hope in this way to put that work
more clearly on the map since this is surely a much-needed response to the
spiritual-tightening that underlies today's so-called 'credit
crunch'.

The event will have two aspects. Firstly, the presentation of the Colors of
Money material. Over 400 people around the world have attended this seminar,
which sets out some basic aspects of associative economics in link with modern
economic events and the all-important element of finance. Secondly, the event
provides an opportunity for those who take part to build together a picture of
US financial history and Rudolf Steiner's work in this context.

The two evenings will be given over to building a picture based on what the
participants know, or think, or dream about American finance. The idea is to
create an opportunity for shared prior homework and building a collegiate
picture. The information shared should be as factual and as non-partisan as
possible so that we create a clear and varied image which in turn could provide
the basis for fresh insight. In London, a similar event is being designed so
that what we come up with will be couched as recommendations to the Bank of
England. In the US case, this would be the Fed, of course. Or would it? (Prior
notes would also be useful, should we decide to publish something.)"

Please get in touch if you would like more information...


Kim Chotzen




      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan  6 04:01:39 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:01:39 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Kucinich witness to a UFO!
Message-ID: <314539.30887.qm@web27404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



Dear All,
?
???????? This may be of interest!?Apparently,?someone also spotted an article in the local rag in Windsor (very near to where I live)of alleged UFO sigthings but I have not checked it out. As most of us will know Kucinich believes in interest free monetary reform..................
?
?
?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=G980aLrAwoM&feature=related
?
?
Robert Searle.


      
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From jimscarver at gmail.com  Mon Jan  5 11:30:21 2009
From: jimscarver at gmail.com (Jim Whitescarver)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 13:30:21 -0500
Subject: [GJM] Currency vs. money
In-Reply-To: <200901050338.n053cgPX030267@mail11.tpg.com.au>
References: <443416.52412.qm@web56402.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<f2a3ba50812161302l5c95b76ay31c5ac8aa51d70cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<4f5894b0901040451g65ef74d3y457f6dca25ce4e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<f2a3ba50901040638v15a4a273oa77736152f6ae0f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<200901050338.n053cgPX030267@mail11.tpg.com.au>
Message-ID: <f2a3ba50901051030r777ed878ucd52f9312b2045c6@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 10:38 PM, John Hermann <hermann at picknowl.com.au> wrote:
>
> Evidently Jim believes the debt virus hypothesis, which asserts either that
> all bank interest income is (a) held (or invested) entirely within the
> banking system, or (b) loaned back into the economy (at interest), or
> alternatively (c) spent back into the economy with however a time lag which
> creates a shortage of money required for paying interest.

I concede that the money supply is not changed when interest is paid.
The interest is indeed spent back into the economy.  I overstated the
problem and thank you for the correction.

It is true that when all money represents debt, if all principle was
paid, there would be no money left in existence to pay the interest.
But as you point out, money in circulation could pay the interest
before all money is eliminated by paying the principle.  Thus my
statement that it is impossible to pay the principle and interest is
incorrect.  At the same time, the notion of the debt virus, that if
the principle was payed, the interest cannot be paid, somehow seems to
illuminate the problematic nature of a debt based money supply, though
it is somewhat of a red herring, and I will be more careful how I
state it in the future.

Chaining the money supply to exponential interest payment is indeed
simply a scheme to redistribute the wealth from the poor to the rich.
But chaining the money supply to debt has more far reaching
consequences.  A sudden contraction in the supply, such as in the
current crises, is generating great hardship in spite of the fact that
there was no real loss in value initially.   But as long as we must
pay interest on our own money supply we cannot stabilize the money
supply and prevent inflation and deflation.  The ever growing burden
of interest robs us of the ability to freely regulate the money
supply.  We have condemned ourselves to ever increasing debt and
interest until the system collapses and reform becomes inevitable.
Hopefully it will be before we endure much more suffering.  Hopefully
it will not be by a new world order imposed on us by the money
masters.

Jim
http://MonetaryReformAct.org


From brock_moore at accountant.com  Mon Jan  5 15:16:40 2009
From: brock_moore at accountant.com (Brock Moore)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:16:40 -0500
Subject: [GJM] Currency vs. money
Message-ID: <20090105221640.9F0C2BE43B1@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com>

 The real crime is that we pay taxes on income and sales to pay interest
to the money masters on money created out of thin air and are forced into
ever increasing debt and interest that is impossible to be paid since
money created as debt creates no money to pay the interest.
----------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------

Repeating the same factually incorrect assertion over and over does not
make it true, Jim.

The money to pay the interest comes from the banks when they pay the
community for the goods and services the community is delivering to the
banks.  If we define money as transaction (or checking) account balances,
money is being created whenever banks credit transaction account balances
for any purpose whatsoever.  Banks credit transaction account balances
when they grant loans and pay their bills.  The money that is created
when banks pay their bills becomes available to the community to pay
interest back to the banks.  It is reciprocal economic activity.

The "out of thin air" observation is not especially meaningful. 
All--repeat all--contracts are written "out of thin air."  Man is an
animal that contracts for future performance.  The ability and propensity
to do so is something that separates us from the animals.  No animal has
that ability or propensity.

Brock

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Jim Whitescarver"
  [snipped]

-- 
Be Yourself @ mail.com!
Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

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From brock_moore at accountant.com  Tue Jan  6 09:09:21 2009
From: brock_moore at accountant.com (Brock Moore)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:09:21 -0500
Subject: [GJM] Currency vs. money
Message-ID: <20090106160921.810B432675E@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com>

 It is true that when all money represents debt, if all principle was
paid, there would be no money left in existence to pay the interest.
----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
This is not true.  It is true that all money represents bank debt by
banks to the holders of the money.  Banks inject money when they grant
loans and pay bank expenses.  Also when they pay dividends to their
stockholders.  The money injected when banks pay expenses and dividends
represents dollar for dollar offset of debt by the public to the banks.
-

But as you point out, money in circulation could pay the interest before
all money is eliminated by paying the principle.
----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
This is not what John has pointed out.  John is saying that the money the
public is paying for interest to the banks is balanced by the money the
banks are paying to the public for expenses and dividends in reciprocal
economic activity.
-

Chaining the money supply to exponential interest payment is indeed
simply a scheme to redistribute the wealth from the poor to the rich.
----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
Another false statement.  For the economy as a whole, interest being paid
is not an exponential function but a linear function of financial
services being supplied by the banks.  Those financial services are
essential to the continued existense of industrial civilization.
-

But as long as we must pay interest on our own money supply we cannot
stabilize the money supply and prevent inflation and deflation.
----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
Instability is an argument against poorly regulated fractional reserve
banking; it is not an argument against interest.
-

The ever growing burden of interest robs us of the ability to freely
regulate the money supply.
----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
You have to demonstrate that there is an "ever growing burden of
interest."  You can't do this through fallacious arguments against
interest.  Interest being paid is in fact a linear not an exponential
function of debt.
-

Brock

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Jim Whitescarver"
  [snipped]

-- 
Be Yourself @ mail.com!
Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan  6 11:06:26 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 18:06:26 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] rejected posting......unsuprised, and amused!!
In-Reply-To: <377822.47925.qm@web36902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <211761.39399.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?? Dear All,
?
???????????????? I was very amused to receive this from Hogwash....sorry Bill Ryan....apologies!!
?
?
?? R.Searle.

--- On Tue, 6/1/09, MODERATOR <socredus at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: MODERATOR <socredus at yahoo.com>
Subject: rejected posting
To: "robert searle" <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Tuesday, 6 January, 2009, 4:57 PM

Robert,

I am rejecting this message for distribution to the Social Credit discussion
list subscribers.

This is a moderated discussion, which means that not all messages posted are
distributed.

In my determination, this message does nothing to advance the discussion.

You remain welcome to post messages relevant to the list topic.

Socredus
-

Subject:	Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical
Economics...........................
Date:	Tuesday, January 6, 2009  12:01:47 (+0000)
From:	robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>

Dear Helga None, et al, (including the Alberta Party!)
 
                       I think you need to understand that Social Credit is not
totally relevant in todays world because its basic ideas are somewhat out of
date. There is a project known as Transfinancial Economics. This is in the
process of development. In two years or so a book should be published about it.
TFE is similiar to Social Credit but is far advanced. It basically believes that
 
a) All money virtually exists as electronic information which is transmitted
from one bank account to another. As such it is possible to know with the right
programming the electronic transactions of most products, and services of the
entire coutry. This also means that we can also know with great certainty as to
how much new non-repayable money could be created, and transmitted with zero, or
low to high risk inflation. This is REVOLUTIONARY
 
b) The issue as to whether banks should be private, or public (or a bit of
both) is largely  irrelevant as far as TFE is concerned. What matters is whether
a debt-free system involving Non-Taxation, and Interest Free Credit exists in
the interests of both the rich AND the poor.
 
c) In TFE there is a Free Price System. Initially, it was wrongly thought that
they could play a big part but it has become clear that this is incorrect. The
reason for this is already in brief explained in a). In other words, like the
present system any kind of "price controls" are avoided altogether,
and only used as very last resort.
 
I will give you all a link to this vital subject which could be popular with
everyone. However, it should be said that the following is a brief presentation
which needs to be updated, and better edited. I would welcome intelligent, and
constructive comments from your good selves.




      



      
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From jimscarver at gmail.com  Tue Jan  6 10:10:05 2009
From: jimscarver at gmail.com (Jim Whitescarver)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:10:05 -0500
Subject: [GJM] Currency vs. money
In-Reply-To: <20090105221640.9F0C2BE43B1@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com>
References: <20090105221640.9F0C2BE43B1@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <f2a3ba50901060910w7d5a0576w6d9d4de750949f02@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Brock Moore <brock_moore at accountant.com> wrote:
> The real crime is that we pay taxes on income and sales to pay interest to
> the money masters on money created out of thin air and are forced into ever
> increasing debt and interest that is impossible to be paid since money
> created as debt creates no money to pay the interest.
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Repeating the same factually incorrect assertion over and over does not make
> it true, Jim.

I will try to word it correctly.

> The money to pay the interest comes from the banks when they pay the
> community for the goods and services the community is delivering to the
> banks.  If we define money as transaction (or checking) account balances,
> money is being created whenever banks credit transaction account balances
> for any purpose whatsoever.  Banks credit transaction account balances when
> they grant loans and pay their bills.  The money that is created when banks
> pay their bills becomes available to the community to pay interest back to
> the banks.  It is reciprocal economic activity.

I am aware that the interest income of banks is spent into the economy
as expenses and dividends to the shareholders.  Balance payment, not
interest payments, reduce the money supply.  You are correct and this
is not really inconstant with my statement except I should have been
more explicit.  To be clear, given that money is created only as debt,
and all the principle is paid back there would be no money left to pay
the interest.  Granted, there is money in the system that is not
created from debt, but it is insignificant and not pertinent to the
issue.

The point is that interest on money creation drains the system and
that a money supply determined by total debt tends to be inflationary
in boom times, by exponential increase of the money supply, and
deflationary in rough times by exponential decrease in the money
supply.  As Milton Freedman and others have shown, all recession and
depression has been preceded by contraction of the money supply and
all inflation by increases in the money supply.  A stable currency
cannot reasonably be controlled by debt, and the interest "tax" on the
money supply stimulates downturns in the economy.  Paying interest on
a loan is a separate issue, the real inequity comes when we pay
interest on the money supply, as we now do.

> The "out of thin air" observation is not especially meaningful.  All--repeat
> all--contracts are written "out of thin air."  Man is an animal that
> contracts for future performance.  The ability and propensity to do so is
> something that separates us from the animals.  No animal has that ability or
> propensity.

The issue is the nature of the contract.  When each party pledges
something of value in the contract, that value is the bases of the
contract, and the contract is just.  Saying money is created out of
thin air is saying that nothing is provided by the owners of the money
as a value commensurate with the collateral offered for the loan that
the money is created by.  Private loans are backed by value on both
sides.  Loans originating from Federal Reserve style privately held
central banking system generally represent little or no value,
consisting of the reserve requirement that itself may be borrowed.
Government allows the creation of money by the issue of bonds,
representing no value when held by the banks and most always paying
interest from the taxpayer for no just cause.

"If government can issue a bond, it can issue a bill, what makes the
bond good, makes the bill good."

Jim
http://MonetaryReformAct.org
> Brock
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Whitescarver"
> [snipped]
>
> --
> Be Yourself @ mail.com!
> Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
> Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!
> _______________________________________________
> Discussion mailing list
> Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
> http://globaljusticemovement.net/mailman/listinfo/discussion_globaljusticemovement.net
>
>


From jimscarver at gmail.com  Tue Jan  6 11:46:51 2009
From: jimscarver at gmail.com (Jim Whitescarver)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 13:46:51 -0500
Subject: [GJM] Currency vs. money
In-Reply-To: <20090106160921.810B432675E@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com>
References: <20090106160921.810B432675E@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <f2a3ba50901061046l68f4436ev59c09816a5ac5478@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Brock Moore <brock_moore at accountant.com> wrote:
> It is true that when all money represents debt, if all principle was paid,
> there would be no money left in existence to pay the interest.
> -----------------------------------------------------
> This is not true.  It is true that all money represents bank debt by banks
> to the holders of the money.  Banks inject money when they grant loans and
> pay bank expenses.  Also when they pay dividends to their stockholders.  The
> money injected when banks pay expenses and dividends represents dollar for
> dollar offset of debt by the public to the banks.

Suppose $10 trillion is created by debt and the amount of money no
representing debt is insignificant as it is in the US.  Say the amount
to be paid back is $10.5 trillion.  If, as I said, the principle of
$10 trillion is paid back, where does the 500 billion to pay the
interest come from?

This is a hypothetical situation, the reality is much more complex.
Your confusion about it is understood and I will be more careful.  The
sad reality is that the 500 billion comes from the tax payer who
perpetually pays compounded interest on it, impossible ultimately
because of its exponential nature.

> But as you point out, money in circulation could pay the interest before all
> money is eliminated by paying the principle.
> ----------------------------------------------------
> -----------------------------------------------------
> This is not what John has pointed out.  John is saying that the money the
> public is paying for interest to the banks is balanced by the money the
> banks are paying to the public for expenses and dividends in reciprocal
> economic activity.

Yes, as I agreed.  It is only when the balance is paid that there is
no money left to pay the interest when money is created by debt.

> Chaining the money supply to exponential interest payment is indeed simply a
> scheme to redistribute the wealth from the poor to the rich.
> ----------------------------------------------------
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Another false statement.  For the economy as a whole, interest being paid is
> not an exponential function but a linear function of financial services
> being supplied by the banks.  Those financial services are essential to the
> continued existense of industrial civilization.

If you look at the money supply and debt, you will see exponential
growth sunce the great depression.  The only thing that can stop it
now is monetary reform or another great depression.

If the money supply is reduced by paying off debt the interest on that
debt would not compound.  In practice, however, debt service does not
even pay the interest while sustenance of the economy requires
increasing the money supply and in a debt based money supply
increasing the debt.  In effect no interest is really paid at all
since the debt only increases.

> But as long as we must pay interest on our own money supply we cannot
> stabilize the money supply and prevent inflation and deflation.
> ----------------------------------------------------
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Instability is an argument against poorly regulated fractional reserve
> banking; it is not an argument against interest.

It is an argument against a debt based money supply.  The notion that
control of interest rates can stabilize the economy and sustain
growth, is proven false by history and realistic economic models.
Taxing the money supply with interest paid by the taxpayer can only
serve to repress economic activity.

> The ever growing burden of interest robs us of the ability to freely
> regulate the money supply.
> ----------------------------------------------------
> -----------------------------------------------------
> You have to demonstrate that there is an "ever growing burden of interest."
> You can't do this through fallacious arguments against interest.  Interest
> being paid is in fact a linear not an exponential function of debt.

When it is possible to pay back the debt, interest does not compound
and it is linear as you say.  however, growth the the population and
enterprise demands growth in the money supply, when such growth is
tied to debt and interest the principle can only increase, compounding
the interest on prior debt.  We cannot say we have actually serviced
debt unless the principle goes down.

The proof is in the pudding.  Look at these graphs of debt and the money supply.
http://www.cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/usdebt.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply

There is no simple singular reason the debt based money supply system
does not work.  You can always make excuses for it and make anecdotal
statements in seeming contradiction to any independent point.  The
simple truth is that the money supply should not be tied to the amount
of debt if we hope to stabilize it without enforcing a debt
equivalence for no good reason, and that citizens and the economy as a
whole certainly do not benefit from paying interest on our own money
supply  A debt based money supply only benefits the money masters.
Deligating the issuence of money to private banks

"If congress has the right under the Constitution to issue paper
money, it was  given them to use themselves, not to be delegated to
individuals or corporations." -Andrew Jackson

"History records that the money changers have used every form of
abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their
control over governments by controlling money and its issuance."
-James Madison

"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who makes
its Laws." ANSELM MEYER ROTHSCHILD (owner of major world banks)

Jim
http://MonetaryReformAct.org
> Brock
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Whitescarver"
> [snipped]
>
> --
> Be Yourself @ mail.com!
> Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
> Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!


From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan  6 12:10:52 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 19:10:52 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] David Korten...
Message-ID: <570452.76990.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All,
?
?????????? He may be of interest.
?
?
??????????????????????? http://www.davidkorten.org/content/neweconomy
?
I have know about his work before.
?
Robert Searle


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan  6 12:41:00 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 19:41:00 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Looking For Info
In-Reply-To: <003301c97030$fc1efc40$6500a8c0@cc.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <84889.57497.qm@web27405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


??? Dear All,
?
??????????????? Interesting ideas here. But have people heard of something called computers, and that money is electronic information from one bank account to another? This may be a difficult concept for Social Creditors to understand!!!
?
?
R.Searle.
?

--- On Tue, 6/1/09, Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu at shaw.ca> wrote:

From: Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Tuesday, 6 January, 2009, 7:00 PM



#yiv587151096 .hmmessage P {
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(John Rawson wrote:-)? "Would you like to tell me whether we would have an army of bureaucrats enforcing "just prices" for every article, or alternatively, what is to stop the discount scheme simply subsidising rising prices? Nobody else appears to be able to."
?
(Joe replies:-)? Since?John and I have?had many 'off-list' exchanges on this subject, as well as others in this forum, I don't feel that I am pre-empting any answer Wally might give on the questions John's asked above by replying to them.? I hope Wally and others will also attempt to further address them, for they are pertinent questions that do deserve answers.
?
John,? there is one thing which is absolutely, positively, 100% certain.? There will be NO "army of bureaucrats" enforcing "just prices" for every article.? There is NO need for that, nor would it be practical, nor was it ever anything Douglas ever envisioned or proposed.? 
?
I believe, from what I have read, that the conception of that kind of utterly inane price regulation originated from Aberhart's initial mis-interpretation of Douglas's proposals.??Or what he may have read into someone else's attempts to explain them when he was first introduced to Social Credit.?
?
The whole conception of a National Dividend and a Consumer Price Discount is that they are "macro-economic" accounting corrections,? necessary to increase EFFECTIVE DEMAND available to Consumers in their day-to-day transactions in the "micro-economy".?? 
?
We are not particularly concerned about whether the nominal price of one article or another rises or falls.? Free market competiton, if it is present, and it generally is, will regulate that very efficiently.? It already does.? 
?
Where it isn't present, in situations where there is a? natural 'monopoly', such as in the provision of electricity, for instance, we can regulate prices by having a Public Utilities Commission or some similar authority,? to whom the case for any price increases must be put.? These agencies already exist in many jurisdictions, regulating?the few ?things which are best operated as 'monopolies', and they function quite effectively.
?
What any merchant who agrees to participate in a Consumer Price Discount scheme is agreeing to do is that he will:-??
?
(a.) keep?an additional?entry in his books showing his actual periodic ?'profit' on turnover,?? 
?
(b.) make this information available to a National Credit Office, or other such agency administering the CPD when required, and 
?
(c.) agree to try to maintain an 'average' profit on turnover, with the assistance of? the CPD in place, at an amount he deems appropriate for the type of business he is in.? 
?
He knows, or should, that if?ALL his product would just sell,??the amount?he has to make in profit?to enable him to feel it's worthwhile still being in business.? 
?
With the CPD in place, the amount of volume EVERY participating business should do will increase, if there is any REAL demand from Consumers for the products being offered.? Whether there is, or not, is up to Consumers.? If there is not, then those products will not be made in future, for there is no sense in producing articles no one actually wants.?
?
?Through the CPD, ?product? for which there may well be a very REAL demand, which could? already be made in greater quantities, but cannot currently?ALL sell (without further recourse to debt) for lack of EFFECTIVE demand is thereby enabled to be sold.??Without that further recourse to debt.? 
?
There is NO NEED to raise prices to 'profiteer' with the CPD in place, ?since the increase in sales volume enables a greater profit.? The same as it does now.? You're spreading your 'costs' ~?your 'overheads' ~?many of which are relatively fixed in every business, over a greater volume of sales.? Increasing your profit.? Without raising your prices.
?
In my opinion, with the CPD in place, the greater inducement to profit for some large businesses might well be to try to lower prices further.??To try to 'predatory price' smaller, lower volume competitors completely ?out of business.? 
?
Which, again in my own opinion, is one of the reasons why we would want to covenant with the merchant that he will try to maintain an 'average' profit on turnover.? 
?
Our idea is to keep business de-centralized and 'consumer' oriented over time, not to further increase consolidation and?inadvertantly enhance?some future straight?'financial' orientation to it by increasing market domination. 
?
I doubt very much there would have to be much 'policing' done to ensure the system was functioning properly.?If there were, with the provisions above agreed to by participating merchants in place, I don't see where that would pose any particular difficulty.? Compliance would be no more difficult to determine than would presently be the case with existing sales taxes, and probably a great deal less so.
?
Some businesses will have a high volume of sales and can operate with a very small margin on their turnover to cover their costs.? Other businesses have a low volume of sales and require a higher margin on turnover to do the same thing.? There is NO "restriction" that forces different businesses, with different sales volumes, to sell the same products for the same price.? It is up to you, as a Consumer, to decide where you will buy.? Same as now.? 
?
What the CPD does, through augmenting "effective demand"available to consumers, is to make it possible for sales volumes at ALL participating merchant's store to rise.? And with that rise will come an increase in the merchant's rate of profit.? It is from that 'profit' that 'loans' are more fully amortized, enabling needed and wanted production that CAN already be made, to continue TO BE MADE.? Without the current necessity for ever expanding exponential debt growth, or the inanity of some of the other supposed "cures" of the "magic money for infrastructure" varieties.
?
Regards,
Joe? 
?
?
?
----- Original Message ----- 

From: John G Rawson 
To: Socred elistas 
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 6:09 PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Wally. Four points, I believe:
1. Sorry, yes I spelled Martin's name wrong. A a slip I regret. And,yes, I have found him to be the member of this group most likely to clear up difficult points logically and practically.
2. A National dividend is not only our policy, but is written into our Constitution.
3. I have strongly opposed the universal income idea which is, I accept, socialistic.? I have expressed this view strongly internally. It is also unconstitutional in view of 2 above. That is what I was referring to in my message, and I expect it to be sorted out this year. Or "die in the attempt". I am embarassed that it is there.
4. I will accept the discount scheme if someone tells me the significance of a "just price" concept that appears to be simply that, with no practical application. I have spent some time trying to get people to explain this lately, and the best I got was being accused of not pushing forward regardless! In a group where many seem to waffle and very few offer practical means of progress. Would you like to tell me whether we would have an army of bureaucrats enforcing "just prices" for every article, or alternatively, what is to stop the discount scheme simply subsidising rising prices? Nobody else appears to be able to.
Regards.

John R.





From: wmklinck at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 15:37:33 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

John,? 


The Consumer (National) Dividend is central to genuine Social Credit and if you have not "picked up" on it (a rather casual manner of expression, seemingly) you are certainly not "pure Douglas S C" or anywhere near to being so. ?I think you have already made it clear that you do not accept the Compensated Price and the concept of the Just Price which are pivotal to Social Credit as Douglas presented it. ?So you are "fairly pure S C"? ?I would infer that you are not even poorly "pure S C." ?Seems that some of the problems with "Social Credit" in New Zealand are far from being resolved. ?A guaranteed basic income is not a Social Credit idea but is manifestly socialist. ?I observe that your "Democrats" website provides a link to Victor Bridger's Social Credit School of Studies which is a sound site. ?I am mystified by your reference to "Martin Hatterslee" whose ideas you "rate most highly." ?Most highly above whose might you tell? ?In this case you
 must be familiar with his ideas. ?I have never heard of any Martin Hatterslee. ?Perhaps you are referring to J. Martin Hattersley. ?For one who seems ever anxious to upstage or improve upon Douglas, you don't always give the impression of being overly precise.


Wally





On 4-Jan-09, at 11:45 PM, John G Rawson wrote:


For activity in NZ, log onto our website?www.democrats.org.nz?Ignore a couple of socialistic items, which are transient. Otherwise, we are fairly pure Douglas S C except that we have never picked up the Dividend angle. Don't forget the "nz" bit on the end, or you might get Obama.
For the rest, of course, 4 years on this group ....
And good luck.? Don't get sidetracked onto things that look attractive and won't work.
Are you in contact with Martin Hatterslee, whose ideas I rate most highly?
Regards.
John R.






From:?helgenome at hotmail.com
To:?socialcredit at elistas.com;?socialcredit at fsbdial.co.uk
CC:?thtardif at hotmail.com;?thtardif at sympatico.ca;?mail at michaeljournal.org;?versdemain at citenet.net;?alainpilote at hotmail.com;?michaeljournal at gmail.com;?siebenthal at gmail.com
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 17:17:58 -0700
Subject: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Hi All,
We are in the process of rebuilding the Social Credit Movement here in Alberta and we are looking for simple introductory material on Social Credit for people who have never heard about it before (99.8%), and who are not necessarily particularly interested in economics as a field of study. We would appreciate if any of you could direct us to suitable sources.
Thanking You,
Helge Nome
V.P. Communications,
Alberta Social Credit Party










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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan  7 06:10:42 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:10:42 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical
	Economics..................IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND.
Message-ID: <315405.36768.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Wed, 7/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical Economics............................
To: "helge nome" <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, 7 January, 2009, 1:07 PM











?? Dear Helge Nome,
?
????????????? Thank you for your response. As indicated in the p2pfoundation entry price controls or anything similiar are not used in TFE....except as a last resort!! These are referred to as inflation controls in my developing work but they are far more advanced, and flexible than anything which existed in the past. And again I must stress they would only be used as a last resort. However, the old ?Kheper essay (to be removed)may give the "reverse" impression along with earlier posts but ideas have since changed.
?
As suggested in my initial communication the creation, and transmission of new non-repayable money could be checked eletronically by specially programmed bank computers to see to what extent they could be inflationary. Obviously, a certain amount of inflation would exist as is the case now.
?
In TFE it is believed that corporations, and banks could be reformed with the right financial incentives to become more in line with sustainability, and social responsibility??(ie proverty reduction etc) as never before. Thus, projects which would otherwise have little, or no commercial interest could be paid for either in full, or in part with profit subsidies, commercial grants, and interest free loans. 
?
As for banks they could still continue to make money lending but the interest would be paid for by the government, or some independent public body. This money would be created electronically ofcourse.
?
I appreciate what has been said would not go down well with monetary reformers but I feel this will probably be the only way forward in spite of the credit crunch. Use capitalism to create a new world whch is fairer, and sustainable may sound rediculous...but as I said if the financial incentives are there many things could be possible, and be in keeping ?to a large extent with what we would understand as global justice. So, I think it is best to largely or partly side with the banks, and corporations in a clever way to bring about real change otherwise? it will probably all be a pipedream. 
?
Ideally ofcourse, the more moral route would be? best but I just feel that this is largely unrealistic, and would take too long. Moreover, we may not have much time to go if we are to take into account global warming..
?
However, Ngos concerned with high ethical issues would be better empowered financially to bring about change. The? corporations, and banks would to a large extent have nothing to fear from them if they are willing to follow a more sustainable path as the financial incentives would be there?to do so. Thus, they have NO EXCUSE but to change, and moreover ?society has NO EXCUSE not to carry out high ethical issues concerned with social, economic, and political reform as the relevant Ngos would be better financed as never before. 
?
And?as for ?Bill Ryan the moderator of Social Elistas he is a well-known troll who tries to rubbish monetary reform ideas (other than Social Credit ofcourse) on various discussion groups. He also uses pseudonymns notably in my case Peter Hogwood (or Hogwash as I like to call him!). 
?
?
Robert Searle.
?
?


--- On Tue, 6/1/09, helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical Economics...........................
To: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Cc: "Socialcreditlist" <socialcredit at elistas.com>
Date: Tuesday, 6 January, 2009, 11:04 PM




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Hi Robert,
Thank you for your response to my call for information. I have checked out your website with interest. New ideas are always welcome here.
Price control is a sticky problem at the best of times as explained by John Kenneth Galbraith who was given the un- enviable job of regulating prices under FDR in the U.S. during WWII.
The main problem for any kind of reform of the present debt based financial system is the vested interest of insiders in maintaining the status-quo. John Maynard Keynes was enthusiastically supported by those very people because he left the financial pie on their plate. That is in contrast to C.H. Douglas who wanted to take it away from them and maybe leave them some crumbs.
The problem with price control is that people don't readily accept it, except during special circumstances, such as a major war. The same vested interests also control a massive propaganda apparatus known as the "main stream media"
and anyone who is perceived to seriously challenge the conventional "wisdom" will be demonized and belittled in the eyes of the general public.
That is why it is important to build support for new ideas right at the interpersonal level amongst individuals communicating directly with one another. The Internet, in its present form, is a great tool for initiating this process.
With the worsening economic conditions right across the world, I am confident in a resurgence in interest in alternative economic ideas, so hang tight, the wind is beginning to change direction in our favour. 
Comments are welcome.
Regards,
Helge


Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:01:47 +0000
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical Economics...........................
To: helgenome at hotmail.com
CC: socialcredit at elistas.com






?
? Dear Helga None, et al, (including the Alberta Party!)
?
?
?????????????????????? I think you need to understand that Social Credit is not totally relevant in todays world because its basic ideas are somewhat out of date. There is a project known as Transfinancial Economics. This is in the process of development. In two years or so a book should be published about it. TFE is similiar to Social Credit but is far advanced. It basically believes that 
?
a) All money virtually exists as electronic information which is transmitted from one bank account to another. As such it is possible to know with the right programming the electronic transactions of most products, and services of the entire coutry. This also means that we can also know with great certainty as to how much new non-repayable money could be created, and transmitted with zero, or low to high risk inflation. This is REVOLUTIONARY
?
b) The issue as to whether banks should be private, or public (or a bit of both) is largely? irrelevant as far as TFE is concerned. What matters is whether a debt-free system involving Non-Taxation, and Interest Free Credit exists in the interests of both the rich AND the poor.
?
c) In TFE there is a Free Price System.Initially, it was wrongly thought that they could play a big part but it has become clear that this is incorrect. The reason for this is already in brief explained in a). In other words, like the present system any kind of "price controls" are avoided altogether, and only used as very last resort.
?
I will give you all a link to this vital subject which could be popular with everyone. However, it should be said that the following is a brief presentation which needs to be updated, and better edited. I would welcome intelligent, and constructive comments from your good selves.
?
???????????????? http://www.p2pfoundation.net/Transfinancial_Economics
?
?
?
Regards,
?
Robert Searle



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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan  7 11:03:49 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 18:03:49 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] The Weird World of Economics....Binary Economics.........
Message-ID: <496260.14283.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
?
Dear All,
?
?????????????? This may be of interest.
?
?
?????????????? http://theweirdworldofeconomics.blogspot.com/2008/03/binary-economics-with-professor-robert.html
?
Robert searle
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
???????????? 


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan  8 05:15:00 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:15:00 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Looking For Info
In-Reply-To: <A7E99DD4-DA5B-4F42-BD6C-1AD37B507D5A@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <950851.61820.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Thu, 8/1/09, Wallace Klinck <wmklinck at shaw.ca> wrote:

From: Wallace Klinck <wmklinck at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Thursday, 8 January, 2009, 12:53 AM



Joe--many thanks for your detailed and laborious exposition. -- Wally

John,
Your say that a National Dividend is your [Party] policy and that it is written into your Constitution. ?Yet you say that you have opposed the "universal income idea" which is "socialistic" and the presence of which in your policy has "embarrassed" you. ?The Social Credit National Dividend IS intended to be universal. ?It is the proposal for a guaranteed basic (or annual) income that is not universal and is NOT a Social Credit proposal. ?The National Dividend goes to all citizens as an unconditional right by inheritance. ?The guaranteed basic income is politically determined and goes only to those designated by political policy. ?Do you understand the difference? ?It is fundamental.
As to the Compensated Price, I think that Joe has done a competent job in clarifying what it is and how it would be implemented. ?It would be applied to a transaction and therefore to all items in the transaction. ?I don't know where you got the persistent notion that it would be calculated separately for each individual item sold. ?We certainly would not have any army of bureaucrats poring over prices of every individual item of consumer goods in attempt to determine its individual "Just Price." ?You should also be aware that the taxation system, alone, would be drastically simplified, thereby cutting an existing massive bureaucracy. ?I think that you should be aware that a system of price discounts was implemented quite practically and successfully even under the existing financial regime to keep down the price of foodstuffs in Australia during the last Great War. ?Unlike consumer bank credit issued today as debt which does not cancel production
 costs but passes them on as charges against future production, the consumption credits proposed by Social Credit create no new debt and become available to the producer to cancel his production costs and production loans. ?Which do you think is most likely to be a contributor to inflation?
We are, in fact, looking toward a "Just Price" for every article--for all articles. But not determined individually. ?We are talking about a ratio to be applied to all production which subsumes all items, obviously. ?In any case, you still are not willing to "risk" implementation of the Compensated Price because of the fear that it will cause massive inflation despite the restraints placed on inflation by competition, the pressure on any vender to enter the arrangement when his competitors are subscribing to the arrangement, ?when in appropriate circumstances 'there is a limit on profit on turnover as Joe has described, and ?the producer who violates his undertaking ?faces decertification and removal of the benefit of belonging to the program. ?The escalation of prices which you describe below did not occur in a Social Credit dispensation but in a Social Debt system and the two cannot be compared as equivalent in effect. ?Anyway, in final
 analysis, you apparently do not support basic Social Credit policy as stated. ?You are not willing to risk it and you do not propose any alternative so by inference, you must be satisfied with the existing system. ?This seems to raise some rather obvious questions, does it not?


Dutifully but wearyingly patient
Wally





On 6-Jan-09, at 1:34 PM, John G Rawson wrote:


Thanks, Joe.? That has made more sense than anyone else has come up with so far. We are not looking at a "just price" for every article, but a "just profit" for every business.
That would certainly reduce the "paperwork" considerably.
However, I can not go along with the "competition" angle.? It didn't work with our recent housing "bubble" and we had no shortage of properties in this young country loaded with willing (and ravenous,and preyed on by inefficient local Councils) developers. Once there is enough money to buy all the goods in any field, competition becomes a myth.
So OK, I can't prove that last point, but neither can you prove yours. So it comes down to an assessment of risk, and personally I'm not prepared to risk something as important as possible blowup of the whole economy.
Regards.
John R.






From:?thomsonhiyu at shaw.ca
To:?socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:00:03 -0800
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info


(John Rawson wrote:-)? "Would you like to tell me whether we would have an army of bureaucrats enforcing "just prices" for every article, or alternatively, what is to stop the discount scheme simply subsidising rising prices? Nobody else appears to be able to."
?
(Joe replies:-)? Since?John and I have?had many 'off-list' exchanges on this subject, as well as others in this forum, I don't feel that I am pre-empting any answer Wally might give on the questions John's asked above by replying to them.? I hope Wally and others will also attempt to further address them, for they are pertinent questions that do deserve answers.
?
John,? there is one thing which is absolutely, positively, 100% certain.? There will be NO "army of bureaucrats" enforcing "just prices" for every article.? There is NO need for that, nor would it be practical, nor was it ever anything Douglas ever envisioned or proposed.?
?
I believe, from what I have read, that the conception of that kind of utterly inane price regulation originated from Aberhart's initial mis-interpretation of Douglas's proposals.??Or what he may have read into someone else's attempts to explain them when he was first introduced to Social Credit.?
?
The whole conception of a National Dividend and a Consumer Price Discount is that they are "macro-economic" accounting corrections,? necessary to increase EFFECTIVE DEMAND available to Consumers in their day-to-day transactions in the "micro-economy".??
?
We are not particularly concerned about whether the nominal price of one article or another rises or falls.? Free market competiton, if it is present, and it generally is, will regulate that very efficiently.? It already does.?
?
Where it isn't present, in situations where there is a? natural 'monopoly', such as in the provision of electricity, for instance, we can regulate prices by having a Public Utilities Commission or some similar authority,? to whom the case for any price increases must be put.? These agencies already exist in many jurisdictions, regulating?the few ?things which are best operated as 'monopolies', and they function quite effectively.
?
What any merchant who agrees to participate in a Consumer Price Discount scheme is agreeing to do is that he will:-??
?
(a.) keep?an additional?entry in his books showing his actual periodic ?'profit' on turnover,??
?
(b.) make this information available to a National Credit Office, or other such agency administering the CPD when required, and
?
(c.) agree to try to maintain an 'average' profit on turnover,?with the assistance of? the CPD in place, at an amount he deems appropriate for the type of business he is in.?
?
He knows, or should, that if?ALL his product would just sell,??the amount?he has to make in profit?to enable him to feel it's worthwhile still being in business.?
?
With the CPD in place, the amount of volume EVERY participating business should do will increase, if there is any REAL demand from Consumers for the products being offered.? Whether there is, or not, is up to Consumers.? If there is not, then those products will not be made in future, for there is no sense in producing articles no one actually wants.?
?
?Through the CPD, ?product? for which there may well be a very REAL demand, which?could? already be made in greater quantities, but cannot currently?ALL sell (without further recourse to debt) for lack of EFFECTIVE demand is thereby enabled to be sold.??Without that further recourse to debt.?
?
There is NO NEED to raise prices to 'profiteer' with the CPD in place, ?since the increase in sales volume enables a greater profit.? The same as it does now.? You're spreading your 'costs' ~?your 'overheads' ~?many of which are relatively fixed in every business, over a greater volume of sales.? Increasing your profit.? Without raising your prices.
?
In my opinion, with the CPD in place, the greater inducement to profit for some large businesses might well be to try to lower prices further.??To try to 'predatory price' smaller, lower volume competitors completely ?out of business.?
?
Which, again in my own opinion, is one of the reasons why we would want to covenant with the merchant that he will try to maintain an 'average' profit on turnover.?
?
Our idea is to keep business de-centralized and 'consumer' oriented over time, not to further increase consolidation and?inadvertantly enhance?some future straight?'financial' orientation to it by increasing market domination.
?
I doubt very much there would have to be much 'policing' done to ensure the system was functioning properly.?If there were, with the provisions above agreed to by participating merchants in place, I don't see where that would pose any particular difficulty.? Compliance would be no more difficult to determine than would presently be the case with existing sales taxes, and probably a great deal less so.
?
Some businesses will have a high volume of sales and can operate with a very small margin on their turnover to cover their costs.? Other businesses have a low volume of sales and require a higher margin on turnover to do the same thing.? There is NO "restriction" that forces different businesses, with different sales volumes, to sell the same products for the same price.? It is up to you, as a Consumer, to decide where you will buy.? Same as now.?
?
What the CPD does, through augmenting "effective demand"available to consumers, is to make it possible for sales volumes at ALL participating merchant's store to rise.? And with that rise will come an increase in the merchant's rate of profit.? It is from that 'profit' that 'loans' are more fully amortized, enabling needed and wanted production that CAN already be made, to continue TO BE MADE.? Without the current necessity for ever expanding exponential debt growth, or the inanity of some of the other supposed "cures" of the "magic money for infrastructure" varieties.
?
Regards,
Joe?
?
?
?
----- Original Message -----

From:?John G Rawson
To:?Socred elistas
Sent:?Monday, January 05, 2009 6:09 PM
Subject:?RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Wally. Four points, I believe:
1. Sorry, yes I spelled Martin's name wrong. A a slip I regret. And,yes, I have found him to be the member of this group most likely to clear up difficult points logically and practically.
2. A National dividend is not only our policy, but is written into our Constitution.
3. I have strongly opposed the universal income idea which is, I accept, socialistic.? I have expressed this view strongly internally. It is also unconstitutional in view of 2 above. That is what I was referring to in my message, and I expect it to be sorted out this year. Or "die in the attempt". I am embarassed that it is there.
4. I will accept the discount scheme if someone tells me the significance of a "just price" concept that appears to be simply that, with no practical application. I have spent some time trying to get people to explain this lately, and the best I got was being accused of not pushing forward regardless! In a group where many seem to waffle and very few offer practical means of progress. Would you like to tell me whether we would have an army of bureaucrats enforcing "just prices" for every article, or alternatively, what is to stop the discount scheme simply subsidising rising prices? Nobody else appears to be able to.
Regards.

John R.





From:?wmklinck at shaw.ca
To:?socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 15:37:33 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

John,?


The Consumer (National) Dividend is central to genuine Social Credit and if you have not "picked up" on it (a rather casual manner of expression, seemingly) you are certainly not "pure Douglas S C" or anywhere near to being so. ?I think you have already made it clear that you do not accept the Compensated Price and the concept of the Just Price which are pivotal to Social Credit as Douglas presented it. ?So you are "fairly pure S C"? ?I would infer that you are not even poorly "pure S C." ?Seems that some of the problems with "Social Credit" in New Zealand are far from being resolved. ?A guaranteed basic income is not a Social Credit idea but is manifestly socialist. ?I observe that your "Democrats" website provides a link to Victor Bridger's Social Credit School of Studies which is a sound site. ?I am mystified by your reference to "Martin Hatterslee" whose ideas you "rate most highly." ?Most highly above whose might you tell? ?In this case you
 must be familiar with his ideas. ?I have never heard of any Martin Hatterslee. ?Perhaps you are referring to J. Martin Hattersley. ?For one who seems ever anxious to upstage or improve upon Douglas, you don't always give the impression of being overly precise.


Wally





On 4-Jan-09, at 11:45 PM, John G Rawson wrote:


For activity in NZ, log onto our website?www.democrats.org.nz?Ignore a couple of socialistic items, which are transient. Otherwise, we are fairly pure Douglas S C except that we have never picked up the Dividend angle. Don't forget the "nz" bit on the end, or you might get Obama.
For the rest, of course, 4 years on this group ....
And good luck.? Don't get sidetracked onto things that look attractive and won't work.
Are you in contact with Martin Hatterslee, whose ideas I rate most highly?
Regards.
John R.






From:?helgenome at hotmail.com
To:?socialcredit at elistas.com;?socialcredit at fsbdial.co.uk
CC:?thtardif at hotmail.com;?thtardif at sympatico.ca;?mail at michaeljournal.org;?versdemain at citenet.net;?alainpilote at hotmail.com;?michaeljournal at gmail.com;?siebenthal at gmail.com
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 17:17:58 -0700
Subject: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Hi All,
We are in the process of rebuilding the Social Credit Movement here in Alberta and we are looking for simple introductory material on Social Credit for people who have never heard about it before (99.8%), and who are not necessarily particularly interested in economics as a field of study. We would appreciate if any of you could direct us to suitable sources.
Thanking You,
Helge Nome
V.P. Communications,
Alberta Social Credit Party










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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan  8 05:36:52 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:36:52 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] An interesting account on
	Deflation..............................
Message-ID: <610075.70300.qm@web27404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All
?
????????? The Wikipedia entry is (as usual on othe similiar topics)interesting on the issue of Deflation.
?
?
???????????? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation_(economics)
?
?
?????????????Robet Searle


      
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From hermann at picknowl.com.au  Tue Jan  6 16:52:35 2009
From: hermann at picknowl.com.au (John Hermann)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 10:22:35 +1030
Subject: [GJM] Currency vs. money
In-Reply-To: <f2a3ba50901051030r777ed878ucd52f9312b2045c6@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <443416.52412.qm@web56402.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<f2a3ba50812161302l5c95b76ay31c5ac8aa51d70cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<4f5894b0901040451g65ef74d3y457f6dca25ce4e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<f2a3ba50901040638v15a4a273oa77736152f6ae0f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<200901050338.n053cgPX030267@mail11.tpg.com.au>
	<f2a3ba50901051030r777ed878ucd52f9312b2045c6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200901062352.n06Nqac0011783@mail13.tpg.com.au>

Hi Jim, your statement below is much closer to my own position.  I 
also would like to point out that although the direct connection is 
not strong, there is an important indirect connection between bank 
interest and the growth of the money supply (and therefore of overall 
debt), associated with the growth of term (time) deposits. However 
the dynamics is complicated.  And a high rate of monetary inflation 
does not necessarily correspond with - or translate to - increased 
price inflation.  -- John Hermann


At 05:00 AM 6/01/2009, Jim wrote:

>On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 10:38 PM, John Hermann wrote:
> > Evidently Jim believes the debt virus hypothesis, which asserts either that
> > all bank interest income is (a) held (or invested) entirely within the
> > banking system, or (b) loaned back into the economy (at interest), or
> > alternatively (c) spent back into the economy with however a time lag which
> > creates a shortage of money required for paying interest.
>
>I concede that the money supply is not changed when interest is paid.
>The interest is indeed spent back into the economy.  I overstated the
>problem and thank you for the correction.
>
>It is true that when all money represents debt, if all principle was
>paid, there would be no money left in existence to pay the interest.
>But as you point out, money in circulation could pay the interest
>before all money is eliminated by paying the principle.  Thus my
>statement that it is impossible to pay the principle and interest is
>incorrect.  At the same time, the notion of the debt virus, that if
>the principle was payed, the interest cannot be paid, somehow seems to
>illuminate the problematic nature of a debt based money supply, though
>it is somewhat of a red herring, and I will be more careful how I
>state it in the future.
>
>Chaining the money supply to exponential interest payment is indeed
>simply a scheme to redistribute the wealth from the poor to the rich.
>But chaining the money supply to debt has more far reaching
>consequences.  A sudden contraction in the supply, such as in the
>current crises, is generating great hardship in spite of the fact that
>there was no real loss in value initially.   But as long as we must
>pay interest on our own money supply we cannot stabilize the money
>supply and prevent inflation and deflation.  The ever growing burden
>of interest robs us of the ability to freely regulate the money
>supply.  We have condemned ourselves to ever increasing debt and
>interest until the system collapses and reform becomes inevitable.
>Hopefully it will be before we endure much more suffering.  Hopefully
>it will not be by a new world order imposed on us by the money
>masters.
>
>Jim
>http://MonetaryReformAct.org
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From brock_moore at accountant.com  Tue Jan  6 16:42:56 2009
From: brock_moore at accountant.com (Brock Moore)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 18:42:56 -0500
Subject: [GJM] Currency vs. money
Message-ID: <20090106234256.3A942115924@ws1-7.us4.outblaze.com>

 Suppose $10 trillion is created by debt and the amount of money not
representing debt is insignificant as it is in the US.  Say the amount to
be paid back is $10.5 trillion.  If, as I said, the principle of $10
trillion is paid back, where does the 500 billion to pay the interest
come from?
--------------------------------------------------------
It comes from the banks in their payments for expenses and dividends.  It
is reciprocal economic activity in which the banks pay for the goods and
services being delivered to them by the community.  That money forms the
fund from which the community pays interest back to the banks.  It's not
a particularly difficult concept to comprehend.  By the way, the word
when applied to finance is spelled p-r-i-n-c-i-p-A-l, with an AL not an
LE.
-

The sad reality is that the 500 billion comes from the tax payer who
perpetually pays compounded interest on it, impossible ultimately because
of its exponential nature.
--------------------------------------------------------
It comes from the banks, not the tax payer, who uses it to pay interest
back to the banks.
-

It is only when the balance is paid that there is no money left to pay
the interest when money is created by debt.
--------------------------------------------------------
Incorrect.  Money is created not only when banks grant loans but when
they pay expenses and dividends.
-

In effect no interest is really paid at all since the debt only
increases.
--------------------------------------------------------
Debt is proportional to economic activity.  The fact that debt is
increasing indicates that trade and commerce is increasing.  What banks
do is convert the personal debt instruments of their borrowers, in the
form of promissory notes, into the the debt instruments of the banks, in
the form of deposits.  These deposits are generally recognized and
accepted in trade and commerce, unlike the individual debt instruments of
the borrowers.  It's what makes the modern industrialized economy
possible through competitive markets.
-

When it is possible to pay back the debt, interest does not compound and
it is linear as you say.  However, growth the the population and
enterprise demands growth in the money supply, when such growth is tied
to debt and interest the principle can only increase, compounding the
interest on prior debt.  We cannot say we have actually serviced debt
unless the principle goes down.
--------------------------------------------------------
Debt is continually being incurred and amortized.  The totality of debt
is increasing because the quantity of trade and commerce is increasing. 
Debt is a tool in that process.
-

I am aware that the interest income of banks is spent into the economy as
expenses and dividends to the shareholders.  Balance payment, not
interest payments, reduce the money supply.
--------------------------------------------------------
Actually, inasmuch as we count bank deposits as being included in the
money supply (they are in fact the major portion of the money supply),
the payment of interest does in fact reduce the money supply.  That
reduction is counterbalanced by the flow of payments by the banks for
expenses and dividends, which increases the money supply.
-

To be clear, given that money is created only as debt, and all the
principle is paid back there would be no money left to pay the interest.
--------------------------------------------------------
No, no, no.  If you mean debt by the public to the banks, then no, no,
no.  The money that the banks spend into circulation for expenses and
dividends represents debt by the banks to the general public.  It is in
offset to debt by the public to the banks.  That is to say, it becomes
available to the public to pay interest back to the banks.
-

Granted, there is money in the system that is not created from debt, but
it is insignificant and not pertinent to the issue.
--------------------------------------------------------
It is significant enough to cover interest payments to the banks.
-

The point is that interest on money creation drains the system...
--------------------------------------------------------
It doesn't drain the system because it's covered by the contra-flow from
the banks when they pay expenses and dividends.
-

Saying money is created out of thin air is saying that nothing is
provided by the owners of the money as a value commensurate with the
collateral offered for the loan that the money is created by.
--------------------------------------------------------
Then you would be saying something that's factually incorrect, because
the banks supply a real service necessary to the continuation of
industrialized civilization.  Incidentally, you appear to be confused by
collateral.  Collateral is merely something that secures credit, and with
reduced risk lowers the interest rate that is charged.
-

Loans originating from Federal Reserve style privately held central
banking system generally represent little or no value...
--------------------------------------------------------
A false assertion on several counts.  The Federal Reserve was created by
an act of Congress.  It's Chaiman and governors are appointed by the
President of the United States, with confirmation by the Senate.  Profit
goes to the credit of the government of the United States.  You appear to
have a peculiar concept of ownership.  The services supplied by banks
have tremendous value, without which industrial civilization could not
continue.
-

Government allows the creation of money by the issue of bonds,
representing no value when held by the banks and most always paying
interest from the taxpayer for no just cause.
--------------------------------------------------------
The theorem is that loans create deposits.  The purchase of bonds by
banks is equivalent to loaning money to the issuers of the bonds, so
money is being created when banks purchase bonds.  You are referring
specifically to federal government bonds, but the principle holds when
banks purchase bonds from any source.  They certainly are valued by the
banks or they wouldn't purchase them.  When the Fed purchases Treasury
bonds, the profit earned on those bonds is returned to the Treasury. 
This is not the case with other banks, which credit their profit to their
stockholders.
-

"If government can issue a bond, it can issue a bill, what makes the bond
good, makes the bill good."
--------------------------------------------------------
But you live in the United States, which has never defaulted on its
sovereign debt.  The situation here is not an automatic attribute of
government in general.  Many if not most governments throughout history
have defaulted on their debt.  The government of Zimbabwe utilizes its
central bank to print money directly, which the government of Zimbabwe
spends.  Zimbabwe has the highest rate of inflation in recorded history,
and is a disaster.  In Zimbabwe's case, what makes its government bonds
bad is what makes their bills bad.

The government of the United States could indeed issue its debt directly,
and spend its bills into circulation.  But to be successful that would
require the cooperation of the banks.  The last time we tried that,
during the Civil War, with the Greenbacks, the banks refused to accept
them for deposit, causing their value and acceptability to drop
severely.  After the War the Congress passed the Specie Resumption Act,
which required their redemption in gold, which greatly enriched the
speculators who had acquired them at steep discount off face value.  So
in that experience the banks achieved complete victory, and the
government lost.

Granted, today, with the central bank being a government operation, the
results could be different.
-

Brock

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Jim Whitescarver"
  [snipped]

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From hermann at picknowl.com.au  Tue Jan  6 17:29:42 2009
From: hermann at picknowl.com.au (John Hermann)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 10:59:42 +1030
Subject: [GJM] Currency vs. money
In-Reply-To: <f2a3ba50901061046l68f4436ev59c09816a5ac5478@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <20090106160921.810B432675E@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com>
	<f2a3ba50901061046l68f4436ev59c09816a5ac5478@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200901070029.n070TqTT016031@mail14.tpg.com.au>

At 05:16 AM 7/01/2009, Jim wrote:

>Suppose $10 trillion is created by debt and the amount of money not 
>representing debt is insignificant as it is in the US.  Say the 
>amount to be paid back is $10.5 trillion.  If, as I said, the 
>principal of $10 trillion is paid back, where does the 500 billion 
>to pay the interest come from?

It is clear that you did not understand what I said previously. The 
problem is that you are trying to interpret the situation without 
appreciating that we are dealing with a continuous dynamical 
system.  Money is flowing (virtually) continuously - in to and out of 
the economy.  And for this reason, the financial system always can 
provide the interest portion (or almost all of the interest portion) 
of any loan repayment.  That is, even in the hypothetical situation 
where the money supply is not growing (a thought experiment only, 
since our current economic system requires growth), the simple fact 
is that almost all of the interest portion of every loan repayment is 
available within the financial system - at any time.


>The sad reality is that the 500 billion comes from the tax payer who 
>perpetually pays compounded interest on it, impossible ultimately 
>because of its exponential nature.

Incorrect.  The interest portion of loan repayments does not come 
from the taxpayer.

John Hermann




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From brock_moore at accountant.com  Tue Jan  6 22:03:09 2009
From: brock_moore at accountant.com (Brock Moore)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 00:03:09 -0500
Subject: [GJM] Currency vs. money
Message-ID: <20090107050309.985153267CA@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com>

 Brock, you have cleared up quite a few things for me concerning bank
lending. Can you shed some light on how the national debt to the federal
reserve can ever be paid? As things currently stand, for every dollar
they "make" we owe it back plus interest. Borrowing continues to escalate
while most of our income tax goes simply to pay interest on money they
invented.
---------------------------------------------------
The Fed holds less than ten percent of the national debt.  Most of it
owed to banks, both domestic and foreign.  A large part of the debt is
owed by the government to itself, that involving the various trust funds,
including Social Security and the Highway Trust Fund.  The portion owed
to the Fed is effectively also owed to itself, since the Fed rebates it
profit to the government.  It is not true that most of the income tax
goes to pay interest on the national debt:

"Some people claim that 100% of the money the government gets from income
tax goes to pay interest on the national debt.

"Not true. In fact, not even close.

"This myth is easily debunked by just looking up the numbers involved.
Unfortunately, looking things up is a skill many tax protestors lack.

"Let's look at the Budget of the United States.

"The amount collected from income tax greatly exceeds the amount spent on
interest on the national debt every year. For example, in 2006, the
individual income tax raised $1.04 trillion (click this link and see page
30 of the historical tables). The government?s net interest expense in
2006 was $226 billion (see page 54 of the tables). That?s about 20% of
individual income tax revenues, not 100%."
http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/debt.htm

Brock

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "James Whitescarver"
  To: "Brock Moore"
  Cc: "Discussion Forum for Global Justice" , FixGov at yahoogroups.com,
  "monetary reform" , "Franklin Whitescarver" , "Robert Whitescarver" ,
  "Gregory Whitescarver"
  Subject: Re: [GJM] Currency vs. money
  Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 21:27:23 -0500

  I could not read all of this because it's too frustrating.
  I think that Jim's arguments are meant to address money created by
  the Federal Reserve and the fate of interest paid to it.
  Bank lending is different.

  Brock, you have cleared up quite a few things for me concerning bank
  lending.
  Can you shed some light on how the national debt to the federal
  reserve can ever be paid?
  As things currently stand, for every dollar they "make" we owe it
  back plus interest.
  Borrowing continues to escalate while most of our income tax goes
  simply to pay interest on money they invented.

  Brock, don't waste your time correcting Jim's spelling.  He's
  dyslexic.  It also makes you sound condescending.

  Can you defend the federal reserve the same way you've defended
  regular private banks?

  JamesJr

-- 
Be Yourself @ mail.com!
Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

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From brock_moore at accountant.com  Wed Jan  7 13:53:19 2009
From: brock_moore at accountant.com (Brock Moore)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:53:19 -0500
Subject: [GJM] being free Re: ECS, AND TFE..Some Basic Points.
Message-ID: <20090107205319.23DC1606861@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>

Janos, my reply is at the end.
-

Re: [GJM] being free Re: ECS, AND TFE..Some Basic Points.
Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:07 PM
From: "Janos Abel" <knightjanos at gmail.com>
To: "Brock Moore" <brock_moore at accountant.com>
"Discussion Forum for Global Justice"
<discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>

Hello Brock,

I said:
 Instead of making and selling a pair of shoes, for example, then buying
a pair of trousers, you can just increase the account of the maker by the
amount the shoes cost (writing out a cheque ends up having same effect)
and take them. In the same way, any other commodity --- cars, houses,
palatial headquarters --- can be yours if you own a bank.
...
------------------------------
You
[Comment]  But you are not describing the arrangement of banking.  It is
a natural monopoly that must be regulated with public oversight so its
monopoly power is not abused.  It is however a natural monopoly that
supplies essential services.

I beg to differ:
A Bank of England Governor is on record admitting that banks create money
when they issue a loan.
In due course it is repaid in real, that is, earned money*. That amounts
to what I say above**.
In a separate e-mail I also point out that just because De La Rue --- a
monopoly --- prints the British Pound Notes, it is not allowed to
own/spend them.

* If you still do not see this, read Section C., Banking And The Supply
Of Money (pp233-243) in Economics, Samuelson and Nordhaus, Thirteenth
Edition.
** OK, maybe the bank has to create a debt to itself in order to issue
the new money. It still amounts to the same thing.
-------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------

Janos, I'm not sure that I'm following any of your points here.  But I am
quite certain that no BOE govenor ever said this: "In due course it
[meaning a loan] is repaid in real, that is, earned money."  He may well
have said that loans create deposits.

The concept that "earned money" is "real" is somewhat bizzare.  Real
money is what it is, and what it is is mostly bank credit in today's
economy.  If Innes
http://www.geocities.com/new_economics/innes/
 is to be believed, it has always been credit, though not necessarily
that of banks, and not a commodity or quasi-commodity, going back to the
very beginnings of human society.  Anything else is an illusion.  Credit
is a generalized form of contract.  And the ability to contract is a
unique human characteristic, and is something that makes us human.

De La Rue is merely the printer of the notes.  It is not a bank.  A bank
may spend its banknotes because the notes represent its promise to redeem
them on demand.  It is doing what anyone may do.  The difference is that
the banks' notes are generally recognized and accepted in trade and
commerce, while the notes of most firms and individuals are not.  So the
primary function of modern banking comes into play when they exchange
their notes for the individual notes of their borrowers in the process of
lending.  Of course the system has evolved into a system where "deposits"
are exchanged through checks or debit cards for transactions in trade and
commerce.  Very few banks except central banks are allowed, as a matter
of oversight and regulation, to issue banknotes today.

Perhaps you will clarify what exactly you are objecting to with this
statement: "I beg to differ."

Brock

-- 
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From jimscarver at gmail.com  Wed Jan  7 17:26:26 2009
From: jimscarver at gmail.com (Jim Whitescarver)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 19:26:26 -0500
Subject: [GJM] inappropriate infophysics? Re: [InfoPhysics] complete
	truth and the monkey parable
In-Reply-To: <1CDDE18A-8B1D-46F9-A498-F9C845CE600E@behappyandfree.com>
References: <mailman.1.1230577204.31462.discussion_globaljusticemovement.net@globaljusticemovement.net>
	<1CDDE18A-8B1D-46F9-A498-F9C845CE600E@behappyandfree.com>
Message-ID: <f2a3ba50901071626q30eecf20x4cdf68b51eb5a04e@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 3:34 PM, Steve Consilvio
<steve at behappyandfree.com> wrote:
> Jim,
> The youth are born into a world where everything is already owned.  While
> they are consumers, and not producers, they learn the system of 'value' from
> the previous generation.  So, what are they taught?  They are taught to
> sell, not to share.  They are taught to assign 'value,' and you
> have reiterated that same idea here.

The economic value of a person or anything is subjective.  To me a
human being is priceless.  But we can assign a value, say $20K per
year for 50 years of enterprise or $1 million dollars as a baseline.
Past value is not what I am talking about, it is future value.

> I disagree with your false dichotomy between young and old, value and
> product, production and consumption.

I do not know where you see that in my writing.  I think we will
evolve to the point where money is unnecessary.  In the mean time,
money ought represent value produced, a product has value if it is
consumed or ideally provides lasting value.as determined by the
population.

> It is being taught that one item has more value than another that is the
> problem.  Why should gold be of more value than silver?  Both are just
> colored dirt.  Does the value come from demand (arbitrary) time (fixed but
> equal for all of us) scarcity (impossible to know how much of something does
> or doesn't exist,) etc.

Scarcity is largely the result of hording.  Gold is naturally scarcer
than silver and has more commercial uses but the price is greatly
inflated do to hording of gold and its production capability to
inflate the price unnaturally.

But value is subjective, if it is just colored dirt to you, it has
little value.  The issue is not what value we were taught, it is what
value it adds to our lives.

We do not need to be stuck on the values we have been taught, we can
choose a better way.
Once we take the power to issue money away from the money masters they
will no longer have the power to hoard commodities and control
production as they now have.  We will be free to use abundant
alternatives to enrich our lives given the ability to capitalize on
them.

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute
master of all industry and commerce." - James A. Garfield
(assassinated by the money interests after only 3 months as president)

We should build our future on abundance, not on scarcity. Investing on
ubiquitous cheap clean energy, for example, is far more fruitful than
fighting over oil.

> Value has always a completely invented thing, and
> it always puts the next generation at a disadvantage, since they have
> nothing by birth!

Value is what you value and what society values.  A child is the most
precious thing to me and to the future of humanity.

> If you want to reform, then you must get back to basics.  You haven't gotten
> back far enough to the beginning.  At the point where government creates
> money, the system is doomed, since the government can't ever have enough
> money for itself.

Government creates bonds, private central and commercial banks create
money and we pay them interest on it.  As long as money is needed or
wanted,  I believe we should create our own money,  and not pay
interest and not grant the power to the money interests.

"Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the
power to create money and control credit, and with a flick of a pen
they will create enough to buy it back." - Sir Josiah Stamp, former
President, Bank of England

If government creates money, and spends the money to create real value
for the people, there cannot be too much value.

> There is no way to 'value' its contribution, and much of
> what it does is counter-productive mathematically (lots of evidence on that)
> so it must eventually become counter-productive physically (building
> machines to destroy things previously built.)

It is not easy to account for real value.  Clearly if we make widets,
and nobody buys widgets, then widgets are of no value.  If widgets are
used once, and thrown away, they clearly have much less value than
something that provides a lasting value.

Responsible government spending must have objective requirements and
accountability.  Taking control of the government from the money
interests is a necessary prerequisite.

"Those who create and issue money and credit direct the policies of
government and hold in the hollow of their hands the destiny of the
people." - Rt. Hon. Reginald McKenna, former Chancellor of Exchequer,
England

"A power has risen up in the government greater than the people
themselves, consisting of many and various powerful interest, combined
in one mass; and held together by the cohesive power of the vast
surplus in banks." - John C. Calhoun, Speech 5/27/1836

"History records that the money changers have used every form of
abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their
control over governments by controlling money and its issuance."
-James Madison

"The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency
and credits needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and
the buying power of  consumers. By the adoption of these principles,
the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease
to be master and become the servant of humanity." -Abraham  Lincoln

"A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our
system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore,
and all of our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have
become one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled
and dominated governments in the civilized world...no longer a
government of free opinion...but a government by the opinion and
duress of small groups of domineering men." PRESIDENT WOODROW WILSON,

> To have a world where people create more than they consume, and where
> consumption is the only form of destruction, you must bridge the
> generational gap.  The key here is consciousness, or ideas, as you seem to
> recognize.  Money, like value, is always invented and relative to something
> else.  The ultimate valuation is that if we must choose, "you should die so
> I can live."  That is the equation that war represents at its extreme, but
> that equation is the same in its seed: buy low-sell high.  The advantage
> towards oneself, or a disadvantage towards oneself (altruism) both are an
> imbalance.  To have harmony between the generations cannot be accomplished
> with altruism or creating 'value' in the mathematical sense, but value
> exclusively in the practical sense.

Yes, value is what you feel in your heat, not something assigned by
others.  As a collective the notion of value is one of our consensus,
not something that can be imposed on us.

Each human being has equal rights to the resources of the planet, and
that value belongs to them at any age.  the notion of value does not
separate the generations in that respect.

> I think is the line you are searching for, but seem to stumble over or step
> over.  A chicken has value because eggs taste good, and the chicken is
> tasty, too.  But the chicken isn't valuable because it's $2.99 a pound.

It is consumed, but sustains a human being.  I never suggested that
price, under the current economic system has anything to do with
value.

>  It's value is to stop hunger temporarily.  The more an economic system
> focuses on managing numbers, and the less on accomplishing its purpose
> (everyone housed, fed, educated, healthy, happy and productive) the more it
> will fail.  If there are numbers, in all probability we will be enslaved by
> them, since, as I mentioned, the government cannot create money and pay
> itself without setting up an irreconcilable contradiction.
> Nevertheless, I think a money system may work IF time is the only thing
> valued, and valued equally, and then it begins again at regular intervals
> (jubilee, etc.)  Otherwise, the next generation is constantly screwed.

I support currencies based on hours, and also on resources, and also
derived value.  I just do not support money as debt as it exists
today.  It is not worth the paper it is printed on in my view and we
ought not use it.

Everyone being housed, fed, educated, healthy, happy and productive is
real value in my view and we need just enough money to represent that
value while sustaining our planet.  To that end we will necessarily
need to do some accounting, but that accounting need no obscure what
is really of value to humanity.

Peace,

Jim
http://MonetaryReformAct.org
> peace,
> steve
> On MonDec 29, 2008, at 2:00 PM, discussion-request at globaljusticemovement.net
> wrote:
>
> I would be grateful to readers for information on ANY financial system that
>
> is altruistic to the majority!!!
>
> Altruism is how an individual acts to benefit the collective over the
> self, it is not a property of an economic system.  Living for the sake
> of others is ultimately our purpose of life. Our stay in this world is
> brief, but the effects of our living are eternal.  While youth may be
> concerned primarily with self, age brings with it the greater need to
> cultivate character and leave a legacy.
>
> We can look at who the system benefits.  In the current system, wealth
> is created by the majority for the benefit of the elite in a trickle
> up process that is self defeating in that it ultimately robs the value
> creators of their ability to create value.  A converse, or trickle
> down system, can be just as self defeating and result in everyone
> being poor, with limited opportunity to create value.
>
> We can look at fairness of the economic system and the maximal
> creation of value. This is a key theme of my article.  Here the enemy
> is peoples preconceived notions that are incomplete truths, destined
> to failure in isolation. This the primary theme of my article.
> http://sites.google.com/a/monetaryreformact.org/monetary-reform-act/monkey-marable
>
> To be altruistic, the monetary system and policy must be engineered
> first of all to maximize the creation of value such that there is
> wealth in the first place.  It must be fair such that there is
> equitable opportunity not only to create value, but to also to improve
> ones live situation.  Finally, altruism is part of natural animal
> nature that ought be encouraged and facilitated by the monetary system
> and economic policy.    Scarcity is the tool of the greedy that has no
> power when there is abundance.  We ought not design a system that
> fosters scarcity.
>
> The best thing we can do as individuals to benefit everyone is to live
> productive lives.  Creating value is good for everyone.  If many of us
> create value there will be abundance and wealth enough for everyone.
> My concern in concentrating on making a altruistic system is that the
> implication is that society benefits at the expense of the individual.
> This is a false notion.  Value creation is something to be rewarded
> if we hope to have abundance.  There is nothing wrong with rewarding
> good behavior and it can be shown objectively that is the only way
> animals on this planet will exhibit good behavior.
>
> What is needed is a system that holistically serves to benefit of
> humanity.  In my efforts have dedicated myself to employ the
> principles of objective information physics to work to that end, by
> the application of objective principles to real systems rather than
> the incomplete Platonic ideals that delude us.  I would welcome any
> feedback on how that might be done more effectively.
>
> Jim
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discussion mailing list
> Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
> http://globaljusticemovement.net/mailman/listinfo/discussion_globaljusticemovement.net
>
>


From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan  8 08:46:03 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 15:46:03 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Brown pledge to get banks lending
Message-ID: <741757.64516.qm@web27406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Brown pledge to get banks lending

1 hour 33 mins ago 

Print Story 

Gordon Brown has promised further measures in the weeks ahead to get banks lending again, warning that a "vital" function was currently lost to the country. Skip related content



Related photos / videos

 Brown pledge to get banks lending 


Related content


Securitas heist jury dishcharged 
Bank cuts interest rates to record low 
Rate Cut: Who's Passing It On? 
Related Hot Topic: Financial Crisis 

Have your say: Financial Crisis
As interest rates were slashed to their lowest ever level by the Bank of England, the Prime Minister and Chancellor Alistair Darling again said it was essential that mortgage and business lending was stepped up.
At a "listening" event in Liverpool designed to show that ministers are in touch with a recession-hit country, they acknowledged that further Government action was necessary.
Businesses were "worried" and homeowners needed more security, the Prime Minister said.
"That's why we had to take urgent action a few weeks ago, when we had to recapitalise the banks - and we were the first country in the world to do it, but others have followed us.
"And that's why in the next few weeks we are looking at the measures we can take to take the next step, and take it with effect, and that is to get the banks to resume the lending that is necessary.
"We know now how important banks are to the system, but if they can't supply finance, and if they don't keep the money moving in the economy, and if they are not able to fund new business loans or fund mortgages, then we have lost an important function that is vital to every part of the country.
"So we want to move from the capitalisation of the banks to securing the funding that is necessary, for business projects, for home ownership and for the everyday business concerns that people have in the banking system."
Mr Darling told the same gathering that banks should respond to the interest rate cut with improved lending facilities.
Mr Brown and Mr Darling were speaking as Cabinet ministers held roundtable discussions with about 200 people from across the North West.

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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan  8 08:47:55 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 15:47:55 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Bank Rate Cut to lowest ever level
Message-ID: <251684.65863.qm@web27406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Bank Rate Cut To Lowest Ever Level

1 hour 1 min ago Sky News 

Print Story 

The Bank of England has announced a 0.5% cut in the base rate of interest, taking the cost of borrowing to the lowest level Britain has ever seen. Skip related content



Related photos / videos

 Bank Rate Cut To Lowest Ever Level 


Related content


Securitas heist jury dishcharged 
Bank cuts interest rates to record low 
Rate Cut: Who's Passing It On? 
Related Hot Topic: Financial Crisis 

Have your say: Financial Crisis
The Monetary Policy Committee's move takes the rate to 1.5% - the first time it has fallen below 2% since the Bank was founded in 1694.
The measure falls short of the wishes of business leaders, including most members of the Sky News Money Panel, who were calling for the rate to be reduced by a whole percentage point.
Although the Bank is attempting to offer relief to borrowers and businesses, mortgage customers have been warned not to expect lenders to pass on the cut in full.
Lloyds TSB and Nationwide had pledged to pass on the reduction to their standard variable rate (SVR) customers before the MPC announcement, while HSBC will also be cutting its SVR by the full amount.
But other major lenders were slower to respond to the change, saying their rates were under review.
Click here to see what the major lenders are doing
The move comes amid what the Bank called "an unusually sharp and synchronised downturn" in the world economy, with business surveys hinting at a quickening deterioration in UK output in the final quarter of 2008.
But the rate cut was less severe than in the past two months as the "substantial depreciation" of the pound gave it room to manoeuvre.
The Bank said recent deep rate cuts and Government spending plans, the fall in sterling and lower inflation would "provide a considerable stimulus" to the economy as the year progressed.

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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan  8 09:13:13 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:13:13 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical Economics.....
Message-ID: <98183.2612.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Thu, 8/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical Economics.....
To: "helge nome" <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Date: Thursday, 8 January, 2009, 4:10 PM











? Dear Helge Nome, et al,
?
??????????????????? What you say appears to be correct. Japanese banks cut their interest rates to Zero in the 90s but this did not have the desired effect to fully encourage spending, and new investment. They experienced deflation, and may well enter another?period of it . 
?
However, it appears that pumping in more money (ie spend out of recession) in a "measured way" over a period of time can? bring things back to "normal"and stimulate the economy. It is all a question really of when, and how much would be required. This cannot be easily predicted though economists try!!!
?
One approach to stimulate growth is for a democratic government to bail out practically all industries plus most of the private, and public debts of individuals if things get really tough. With?TFE this?would be possible but it would also could arguably create? moral hazard, and could be seen as "morally absurd "depending on who, and what you are bailing out! Moreover, inflation, or worse could ensue. With TFE this can be directly controlled without the need for taxes, or ofcourse interest rartes.
?
Indeed,?in TFE we would have a far more accurate understanding of the electronic dimension of the entire economy of supply, and demand (as most transactions, and their registered ID codes? could be tracked electronically, and transmitted to the specially programmed bank computers), and would be better to know in record time when a recovery were likely or not. I know this may smack a bit of Big Brother but there we are
?
As I am sure you know Behaviourial Economics has become very much the vogue in academia especially in connection with money markets. It is also something which we must take into account with any new serious ?economic paradigm. Computational Economics is also another subject which is being taken more, and more seriously. It has notably played a major role in the money markets especially in connection with algorithmic trading.
?
Ofcourse when the? Social Credit?Party of Alberta first came into power back in the?early 20th century ?it tried to sort out the banks who in turn filed lawsuits against it, and largely won as far as I understand it. So, you can see that if one tried to do the same in the 21st century the chances of success would probably be nil. This is why one advocates a very different approach which most monetary reformers will not like. It would admitedly continue to accept the elite for the time being but could also lead ultimately to their demise with better financed, and better empowered NGOs to tackle them so to speak by winning public support for the gradual emergence of more advanced ways of doing things sustainably with an emphasis on fairer wealth distribution for all.................
?
But I think it is more important that some kind of advanced system of finance is created which can lead to greater global justice (using a price tag to achieve it as already indicated in the previous email!!) .I find it difficult to see any other way forward with the possible exception of something like Simultaneous Policy. A moral approach of activism, and governmental intervention would be far better...but is unlikely to? work if at all unless as you suggest something really serious happened to force people to do something about the status quo. and to get them on the streets so to speak!
?
So, there you are!
?
Robert Searle.
?
????????????????? We are all keynesians....again!
?
?


--- On Thu, 8/1/09, helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical Economics............................
To: "Robert Searle" <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Thursday, 8 January, 2009, 1:13 AM




#yiv452869407 #yiv1603163606 #yiv644093977 #yiv1444731646 #yiv505526265 #yiv115963267 .hmmessage P
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Hi Robert,
Sounds like there are some interesting moments on the eList. Be that as it may. Inflation/deflation is a fascinating subject. It seems to me that in order to account for human economic behaviour, we need to take into account the prevailing public mood at any given time. For example, a bull or bear market is driven by collective beliefs in future market trends.
?So merely pumping new money into circulation does not mean that it will automatically begin to inflate prices. That depends on the prevailing public mood which may dictate the money to be hoarded rather than spent, as is the case right now with a financial crisis in the making. That means, at this time, even if free money was made available to consumers, those consumers may elect to hold on to the money rather than spending it on goods and services which would stimulate the real economy. FDR said: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself". And he was right. The current deflationary trend is driven by collective fear, fear of going bankrupt if you spend your money or continue to use your available credit.
Here in Alberta, we are trying to build awareness of monetary ownership, once again. There are just a few old timers left who has any memory of the Great Depression and its causes.
As you point out, the financial establishment is not willingly going to allow anybody to wrestle the control and claimed ownership of capital away from it. Things will need to get pretty grim before people decide that enough is enough.
Regards,
Helge



Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:07:53 +0000
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Subject: RE: Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical Economics............................
To: helgenome at hotmail.com










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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan  9 05:41:14 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 12:41:14 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical Economics.....
In-Reply-To: <f2a3ba50901081102h3cd36072n6522bdd90bc871a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <877405.78895.qm@web27404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Thu, 8/1/09, Jim Whitescarver <jimscarver at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Jim Whitescarver <jimscarver at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical Economics.....
To: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk, "Discussion Forum for Global Justice" <discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>, "monetary reform" <monetaryReform at yahoogroups.com>, FixGov at yahoogroups.com
Cc: "James Whitescarver" <blixyz at gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, 8 January, 2009, 7:02 PM

Yes, Robert.  Social Credit is a great concept but we have to be more
pragmatic, as you suggest by its failure in Canada, if we hope to beat
the money interests.  It is also not clear to me that Social Credit is
a complete solution by itself.  Instead, it seems to be just one tool
in an arsenal of powers provided by ability for humanity to create
money, and control the money supply, for its own betterment.Answer. Thank you for remark. Personally, I have got nothing against Social Credit per se. But we need a big improvement on it. This is where the Transfinancial paradigm comes into play.

Transfinanical Economics seems to be a very general notion with
specifics that change day to day.  While this leaves me clueless on
the specifics of its experimentation, it may be prudent that we adopt
principle, rather than specifics, as a path to a solution.

The present description
http://www.kheper.net/essays/Transfinancial_Economics.html
is incomplete and out of date.  The basic principle is to use our
power to create money for the benefit of humanity.Answer. The p2pfoundation at present offers the most upt-to-date, and accurate data of the specifics as you put it. And you are right the kheper essay as already indicated before is incomplete, and out of date, and needs to be removed sometime this year, and possibly replaced with a more advanced, and accurate presentation.

It can be improved in many ways. Social Credit, for example, is a
mechanism I would employ before price controls.  I would also tax
unfair competition and resource depletion before employing social
Credit..  I would only eliminate taxes on income and sales.  It is
unjust not to tax those who exploit the rest of us.  It is wrong to
tax enterprise.  Enterprise that is taxed, is not free.

Our ability to spend and tax is our collective means to control the
effects of Behavioral Economics, employed for our benefit, rather than
our detriment.

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute
master of all industry and commerce." - US President James A. Garfield
(assassinated by the money interests)Answer. The morality of taxation is fine as far as it goes but if there is a better, and more advanced way of doing things then we should try, and go for it. 

Our control is fine tuned by spending or lending money into existence,
and taxing money out of circulation selectively.

"We are all keynesians....again!" - Robert

There is merit in this statement, Robert, I hope, in a true sense it
is true.  Not in the popular view promoted by the money interests, but
in the true Keynesian sense.

John Maynard Keynes,
The Economic Consequences of the Peace,
1920, page 240 	"If, however, a government refrains from regulations
and allows matters to take their course,  essential commodities soon
attain a level of price out of the reach of all but the rich, the
worthlessness of the money becomes apparent, and the fraud upon the
public can be concealed no longer."

I hope we are at that point now and we fix it!

John Maynard Keynes,
The Economic Consequences of the Peace,
1920, page 235ff 	"Lenin is said to have declared that the best way to
destroy the Capitalistic System was to debauch the currency. . .
Lenin was certainly right. There is no subtler, no surer means of
overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the
currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on
the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in
a million can diagnose."

If only we had heeded this warning, so much suffering could have been
avoided.  But regulation most often restricts enterprise and is
harmful to free enterprise.  Regulation by means of taxing and
spending regulates without limiting free enterprise and ought be the
preferred means of regulation.  Most attempts at regulation are
ineffectual because the game is changed by the money interests as fast
as regulations can be written.  A windfall profit tax, on the other
hand, is independent of the means used to obtain it, and can make
market manipulation unprofitable, or at least less profitable than
providing real value to consumers.

For Transfinanical Economics to be a real solution, in my view, it
must be extended to include every way we can use the power to control
money for the benefit of humanity.

And we cannot put our stock in any theory or ideal without proving it
in operational trials.

I invite you, or anyone, to apply Transfinanical Economics, or any
proposed solution, in the AnewGo economy.  Alternative currencies are
real money, unlike money of the central banking system, we can apply
potential solutions to the exchange of these real currencies,  in
addition to the AnewGo currency, in the AnewGo economy, where we are
free to be the change, and see what works.
http://WikiWorld.com/AnewGo

Jim
http://MonetaryReformAct.org
On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 11:13 AM, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
>
>
> --- On Thu, 8/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: RE: Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical Economics.....
> To: "helge nome" <helgenome at hotmail.com>
> Date: Thursday, 8 January, 2009, 4:10 PM
>
>   Dear Helge Nome, et al,
>
>                     What you say appears to be correct. Japanese banks cut
> their interest rates to Zero in the 90s but this did not have the desired
> effect to fully encourage spending, and new investment. They experienced
> deflation, and may well enter another period of it .
>
> However, it appears that pumping in more money (ie spend out of recession)
> in a "measured way" over a period of time can  bring things back
to
> "normal"and stimulate the economy. It is all a question really
of when, and
> how much would be required. This cannot be easily predicted though
> economists try!!!
>
> One approach to stimulate growth is for a democratic government to bail
out
> practically all industries plus most of the private, and public debts of
> individuals if things get really tough. With TFE this would be possible
but
> it would also could arguably create  moral hazard, and could be seen as
> "morally absurd "depending on who, and what you are bailing out!
Moreover,
> inflation, or worse could ensue. With TFE this can be directly controlled
> without the need for taxes, or ofcourse interest rartes.
>
> Indeed, in TFE we would have a far more accurate understanding of the
> electronic dimension of the entire economy of supply, and demand (as most
> transactions, and their registered ID codes  could be tracked
> electronically, and transmitted to the specially programmed bank
computers),
> and would be better to know in record time when a recovery were likely or
> not. I know this may smack a bit of Big Brother but there we are
>
> As I am sure you know Behaviourial Economics has become very much the
vogue
> in academia especially in connection with money markets. It is also
> something which we must take into account with any new serious  economic
> paradigm. Computational Economics is also another subject which is being
> taken more, and more seriously. It has notably played a major role in the
> money markets especially in connection with algorithmic trading.
>
> Ofcourse when the  Social Credit Party of Alberta first came into power
back
> in the early 20th century  it tried to sort out the banks who in turn
filed
> lawsuits against it, and largely won as far as I understand it. So, you
can
> see that if one tried to do the same in the 21st century the chances of
> success would probably be nil. This is why one advocates a very different
> approach which most monetary reformers will not like. It would admitedly
> continue to accept the elite for the time being but could also lead
> ultimately to their demise with better financed, and better empowered NGOs
> to tackle them so to speak by winning public support for the gradual
> emergence of more advanced ways of doing things sustainably with an
emphasis
> on fairer wealth distribution for all.................
>
> But I think it is more important that some kind of advanced system of
> finance is created which can lead to greater global justice (using a price
> tag to achieve it as already indicated in the previous email!!) .I find it
> difficult to see any other way forward with the possible exception of
> something like Simultaneous Policy. A moral approach of activism, and
> governmental intervention would be far better...but is unlikely to  work
if
> at all unless as you suggest something really serious happened to force
> people to do something about the status quo. and to get them on the
streets
> so to speak!
>
> So, there you are!
>
> Robert Searle.
>
>                   We are all keynesians....again!
>
>
>
> --- On Thu, 8/1/09, helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com>
> Subject: RE: Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical
> Economics............................
> To: "Robert Searle" <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Date: Thursday, 8 January, 2009, 1:13 AM
>
> Hi Robert,
> Sounds like there are some interesting moments on the eList. Be that as it
> may. Inflation/deflation is a fascinating subject. It seems to me that in
> order to account for human economic behaviour, we need to take into
account
> the prevailing public mood at any given time. For example, a bull or bear
> market is driven by collective beliefs in future market trends.
>  So merely pumping new money into circulation does not mean that it will
> automatically begin to inflate prices. That depends on the prevailing
public
> mood which may dictate the money to be hoarded rather than spent, as is
the
> case right now with a financial crisis in the making. That means, at this
> time, even if free money was made available to consumers, those consumers
> may elect to hold on to the money rather than spending it on goods and
> services which would stimulate the real economy. FDR said: "The only
thing
> we have to fear is fear itself". And he was right. The current
deflationary
> trend is driven by collective fear, fear of going bankrupt if you spend
your
> money or continue to use your available credit.
> Here in Alberta, we are trying to build awareness of monetary ownership,
> once again. There are just a few old timers left who has any memory of the
> Great Depression and its causes.
> As you point out, the financial establishment is not willingly going to
> allow anybody to wrestle the control and claimed ownership of capital away
> from it. Things will need to get pretty grim before people decide that
> enough is enough.
> Regards,
> Helge
>
> ________________________________
> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:07:53 +0000
> From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
> Subject: RE: Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical
> Economics............................
> To: helgenome at hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Easily add maps and directions to your online party invites. Click to
learn
> how.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discussion mailing list
> Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
>
http://globaljusticemovement.net/mailman/listinfo/discussion_globaljusticemovement.net
>
>



      
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From rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com  Fri Jan  9 10:05:24 2009
From: rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com (Rodney Shakespeare)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 17:05:24 -0000
Subject: [GJM] PressTV targeted in Gaza
References: <523503.76472.qm@web27402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002101c9727c$77359040$0301a8c0@your447023ae6b>

Dear All,
I think members ought to know that:-
a)  there is a large gas field in the sea just off Gaza.  (Well, I never! )

b)  Israel allows no journalists into Gaza and the building with journalists already there (PressTV and Al Alam satellite) has just been attacked.  

With the journalists being silenced/attacked a secret slaughter now seems to be in prospect (and yesterday's UN cease-fire resolution is being ignored). 

c)  Israel told civilians to go into a particular building -- and then shelled the building.

d) Un vehicles have been attacked.


The extraordinariy thing about a),  b) c) and d) above is that it is profoundly against the long-term interests of both Israel and the USA not least becausethey are guaranteeing the creation of yet another generation (and a bigger one) of radicalised and impalacable enemies. 

How stupid can you get?

Roldney Shakespeare.
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan  9 10:12:41 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 17:12:41 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Sabine McNeils New Blog Update...like Ellen Browns!!
Message-ID: <976691.78179.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All,
?
????????????? This will be of interest .........
?
??????????????????? http://moneyasdebt.wordpress.com/
?
Robert Searle


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan  9 10:30:13 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 17:30:13 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] The Tiresome Mr. Hogwash...........
Message-ID: <856478.50949.qm@web27405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear ALL
?
?????????? I received as presumably others have done Mr. Peter Hogwashs communication having a go at me, and TFE coming up with the usual dull repetative?comments. Clearly?I think ?he has a chronic psychological problem! 
?
The most interesting part of it was at the end. It revealed his allegiance to Social Credit which obviously he loves, and hates something which?goes beynd?it (ie. TFE ofcourse). I do not think Hogwash is stupid. He knows it is more advanced than Social Credit, and represents the future.
?
I hope others others onsite do not take him seriously, and should ignore any similiar missives if he re-starts his little rants!
?
?
?
Robert Searle.


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan  9 12:10:22 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 19:10:22 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical Economics.....
Message-ID: <856770.33311.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Fri, 9/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical Economics.....
To: "helge nome" <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Date: Friday, 9 January, 2009, 1:17 PM







?? Dear Helge Nome,
?
????????????????? Thank you for your response. I see the period of greed, and competition as an evolutionary phase which cannot be weeded out for quite awhile to come. Instead, as far as TFE is concerned it could with the right financial incentives, and planning?be used for the good in what might be termed competative sustainability( which sounds rediculous at first until you understand the underlying premise). 
?
Ofcourse, some businesses are recognizing the fact that there is now emerging a new market in which green products, and services are becoming commercially viable. This is obviously a good thing. However, there are certain areas which are NOT commercially viable but would do extremely well if huge targetted subsidies, commercial grants, and interest free grants? could be created, and transmitted. This notion in itself is nothing new but with TFE there is at least in theory the possibility of creating an infinite amount of capital electronically via the banking system!!
?
As you are beginning to realize TFE can be good for BOTH the? capitalists, and global justice. This is the key point, and yet it may hold the key to demise of capitalism as we now understand because:-
?
a) In TFE the mass production of sustainable goods, and services would become increasingly more automated, and ultimately work as we would now understand it would largely no longer exist, or be necessary. Hence, the need for money would?disappear, and?a free hi-tech?global economy would emerge.
?
b) The greater financial empowerment of social, economic, and political NGOs concerned would be a huge step forward for the development of democracy, and human rights. Since most people in the future will not be working in the normal sense they would be able to spend time as never before being involved in the democratic process if they are genuinely concerned about their ?present, and future generation.
?
As far as the casino economy of derivatives we should ideally get rid of them. But it is ofcourse difficult in spite of the present credit crunch to?"abolish" financial engineering unless governments really get tough!.It all reminds me a bit of the Tobin Tax which has yet to become implemented into law even though it is a good idea.
?
So, there we are again!
?
Robert Searle
?
?


--- On Fri, 9/1/09, helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical Economics.....
To: "Robert Searle" <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Friday, 9 January, 2009, 5:09 AM




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Hi Again Robert,
I am enjoying this conversation. Creativity is #1 with me.
I think that the way humans interact with each other, in an economic way, on a large scale, is a natural phenomenon, not unlike many others that take place in nature. Collectively taking risks driven by the greed impulse and disregarding logical consequences which are suppressed by a feeling collective euphoria, we fall over one another to make a fast buck. The bubble bursts, the party is over, and we all suffer the consequences with an almighty hangover the next day.
Trying to fix the "hangover" with large infusions of cash will just make us drunk again, if it works, and we will end up with an even worse hangover down the road.
Conclusion: Like it or not, we will have to suffer the consequences of our collective actions over the last thirty years, or so: The pendelum has to swing back before it can be stabilized again, controlled by sane monetary and fiscal policies that maintain a balance between the financial system and the real economy. The "Casino" nature of the present financial system has to be eradicated. People have to understand that you can't put some money into a Pandoras' Box and expect to get more back when you open the box up again the next day!

I agree with you that it is now possible to get very rapid feedback on financial system behaviour using modern technology. And you would think that the bankers would be the first to embrace a new system that allows them to sleep at night and not face an angry mob at their front door in the morning!
Regards,
Helge



Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:10:41 +0000
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Subject: RE: Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical Economics.....
To: helgenome at hotmail.com










? Dear Helge Nome,
?
??????????????????? What you say appears to be correct. Japanese banks cut their interest rates to Zero in the 90s but this did not have the desired effect to fully encourage spending, and new investment. They experienced deflation, and may well enter another?period of it . 
?
However, it appears that pumping in more money (ie spend out of recession) in a "measured way" over a period of time can? bring things back to "normal"and stimulate the economy. It is all a question really of when, and how much would be required. This cannot be easily predicted though economists try!!!
?
One approach to stimulate growth is for a democratic government to bail out practically all industries plus most of the private, and public debts of individuals if things get really tough. With?TFE this?would be possible but it would also could arguably create? moral hazard, and could be seen as "morally absurd "depending on who, and what you are bailing out! Moreover, inflation, or worse could ensue. With TFE this can be directly controlled without the need for taxes, or ofcourse interest rartes.
?
Indeed,?in TFE we would have a far more accurate understanding of the electronic dimension of the entire economy of supply, and demand (as most transactions, and their registered ID codes? could be tracked electronically, and transmitted to the specially programmed bank computers), and would be better to know in record time when a recovery were likely or not. I know this may smack a bit of Big Brother but there we are
?
As I am sure you know Behaviourial Economics has become very much the vogue in academia especially in connection with money markets. It is also something which we must take into account with any new serious ?economic paradigm. Computational Economics is also another subject which is being taken more, and more seriously. It has notably played a major role in the money markets especially in connection with algorithmic trading.
?
Ofcourse when the? Social Credit?Party of Alberta first came into power back in the?early 20th century ?it tried to sort out the banks who in turn filed lawsuits against it, and largely won as far as I understand it. So, you can see that if one tried to do the same in the 21st century the chances of success would probably be nil. This is why one advocates a very different approach which most monetary reformers will not like. It would admitedly continue to accept the elite for the time being but could also lead ultimately to their demise with better financed, and better empowered NGOs to tackle them so to speak by winning public support for the gradual emergence of more advanced ways of doing things sustainably with an emphasis on fairer wealth distribution for all.................
?
But I think it is more important that some kind of advanced system of finance is created which can lead to greater global justice (using a price tag to achieve it as already indicated in the previous email!!) .I find it difficult to see any other way forward with the possible exception of something like Simultaneous Policy. A moral approach of activism, and governmental intervention would be far better...but is unlikely to? work if at all unless as you suggest something really serious happened to force people to do something about the status quo. and to get them on the streets so to speak!
?
So, there you are!
?
Robert Searle.
?
????????????????? We are all keynesians....again!
?
?


-



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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan  9 12:24:45 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 19:24:45 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Brassneck tv!
Message-ID: <851112.84017.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All,
?
??????????? Might be of interest!
?
?? http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/521.html
?
?
? Robert Searle


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan  9 12:30:34 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 19:30:34 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Early Signs of a "Gifted Economy" on the Internet...?
Message-ID: <119583.67699.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


?
Dear All,
?
???????????? Though I knew something about it already I was fascinated to listen to this BBC radio programme which suggests the beginings of a "gifted economy" on the internet....TFE ultimately believes in something like a gifited economy via economic evolution but ultimately in all areas of society..............
?
?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/inbusiness/inbusiness.shtml
?
?
R.Searle
??????? 


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan  9 12:43:22 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 19:43:22 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Bankers should apologise
Message-ID: <443116.97017.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Dear all,
?
????????? May be of interest.
?
???????????? http://greenpartyblogs.org.uk/blog/08/12/20/barclays-john-varley-backs-monetary-reform-shock
?
?
R.Searle
?
?


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan  9 12:45:50 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 19:45:50 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Monetary Reform Book on-line
Message-ID: <778364.55853.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Dear All,
?
???????? Might be of interest.
?
?
http://www.simpleliberty.org/mr/index.htm#table_of_contents
?
R.Searle


      
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From maryrose333 at att.net  Fri Jan  9 14:01:02 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 13:01:02 -0800
Subject: [GJM] The new administration vs the Blessed Unrest movement.
Message-ID: <005601c9729d$623237e0$2696a7a0$@net>

This is where the 'new administration' and the Blessed Unrest movement
described in

Paul Hawken's new book by the same name, clash.  

 

http://civileats.com/2009/01/09/working-together-in-the-new-adminstration/#m
ore-1517

 

But it appears that the grassroots movement  of the Cultural Creatives, who
are the majority 

of those involved in the Blessed Unrest movement, may far outweigh those who
will go along 

with new administration policies. 

 

http://www.blessedunrest.com/video.html

 

It is up to us to get the word out and keep the Blessed Unrest Movement of
the Cultural Creatives

moving.   

 




	
FutureDawning.org 

	


Mary Rose
 <mailto:dustysummerrose at gmail.com> dustysummerrose at gmail.com 

	


 
<https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=206159508347&src=client_sig_212_1_card_join&
invite=1&lang=en> Always have my latest info

 <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_card_sig&lang=en> Want
a signature like this?

 

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From maryrose333 at att.net  Fri Jan  9 14:23:47 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 13:23:47 -0800
Subject: [GJM] The Intentional Economy
Message-ID: <005b01c972a0$90230dc0$b0692940$@net>


An interesting article posted by Bob Banner on the Transition California
website: Transition California transitioncalifornia.ning.com/


I recommend that anyone wanting to assure their food supply in the U.S. join
Transition California and if you don't live there, look for assistance at
the Transition United States URL listed there for further assistance. 


The question we need to be asking ourselves is: "Do we want more of the same
old bulls---? Or, do we want food security?        


Again signs that the "new" administration is going one way while the larger
"people's grassroots' movement" is going another way.  mary rose 


The Intentional Economy by Daniel Pinchbeck


The Intentional Economy
by Daniel Pinchbeck

While exploring shamanism and non-ordinary states, I discovered the power of
intention. According to the artist Ian Lungold, who lectured brilliantly
about the Mayan Calendar before his untimely death a few years ago, the Maya
believe that your intention is as essential to your ability to navigate
reality as your position in time and space. If you don't know your
intention, or if you are operating with the wrong intentions, you are always
lost, and can only get more dissolute.

This idea becomes exquisitely clear during psychedelic journeys, when your
state of mind gets intensified and projected kaleidoscopically all around
you. As our contemporary world becomes more and more psychedelic, we are
receiving harsh lessons in the power of intention on a vast scale. Over the
last decades, the international financial elite manipulated the markets to
create obscene rewards for themselves at the expense of poor and middle
class people across the world. Using devious derivatives, cunning CDOS, and
other trickery, they siphoned off ever-larger portions of the surplus value
created by the producers of real goods and services, contriving a debt-based
economy that had to fall apart. Their own greed -- such a meager, dull
intent -- has now blown up in their faces, annihilating, in slow motion, the
corrupt system built to serve them.

Opportunities such as this one don't come along very often and should be
seized once they appear. When the edifice of mainstream society suddenly
collapses, as is happening now, it is a fantastic time for artists,
visionaries, mad scientists and seers to step forward and present a
well-defined alternative. What is required, in my opinion, is not some
moderate proposal or incremental change, but a complete shift in values and
goals, making a polar reversal of our society's basic paradigm. If our
consumer-based, materialism-driven model of society is dissolving, what can
we offer in its place? Why not begin with the most elevated intentions? Why
not offer the most imaginatively fabulous systemic redesign?

The fall of capitalism and the crisis of the biosphere could induce mass
despair and misery, or they could impel the creative adaptation and
conscious evolution of the human species. We could attain a new level of
wisdom and build a compassionate global society in which resources are
shared equitably while we devote ourselves to protecting threatened species
and repairing damaged ecosystems. Considering the lightning-like pace of
global communication and new social technologies, this change could happen
with extraordinary speed.

To a very great extent, the possibilities we choose to realize in the future
will be a result of our individual and collective intention. For instance,
if we maintain a Puritanical belief that work is somehow good in and of
itself, then we will keep striving to create a society of full employment,
even if those jobs become "green collar." A more radical viewpoint perceives
most labor as something that could become essentially voluntary in the
future. The proper use of technology could allow us to transition to a
post-scarcity leisure society, where the global populace spends its time
growing food, building community, making art, making love, learning new
skills and deepening self-development through spiritual disciplines such as
yoga, tantra, shamanism and meditation.

One common perspective is that the West and Islam are engaged in an
intractable conflict of civilizations, where the hatred and terrorism can
only get worse. Another viewpoint could envision the Judeo-Christian culture
of the West finding common ground and reconciling with the esoteric core,
the metaphysical purity, of the Islamic faith. It seems -- to me anyway --
that we could find solutions to all of the seemingly intractable problems of
our time once we are ready to apply a different mindset to them. As Einstein
and others have noted, we don't solve problems through employing the type of
thinking that created them, but rather dissolve them when we reach a
different level of consciousness.

We became so mired in our all-too-human world that we lost touch with the
other, elder forms of sentience all around us. Along with delegates to the
UN, perhaps we could train cadres of diplomats to negotiate with the
vegetal, fungal and microbial entities that sustain life on earth? The
mycologist Paul Stamets proposes we create a symbiosis with mushrooms to
detoxify eco-systems and improve human health. The herbalist Morgan Brent
believes psychoactive flora like ayahuasca and peyote are "teacher plants,"
sentient emissaries from super-intelligent nature, trying to help the human
species find its niche in the greater community of life. When we pull back
to study the hapless and shameful activity of our species across the earth,
these ideas do not seem very farfetched.

In fact, the breakdown of our financial system has not altered the amount of
tangible resources available on our planet. Rather than trying to re-jigger
an unjust debt-based system that artificially maintains inequity and
scarcity, we could make a new start. We could develop a different intention
for what we are supposed to be doing together on this swiftly tilting
planet, and institute new social and economic infrastructure to support that
intent.

This article originally appeared in Conscious Choice.

For more Pinchbeck see his RSS feed at MY PAGE at Transition US (at the
lower left hand column):
http://transitionus.ning.com/profile/bobbanner 

Tags: . <http://transitioncalifornia.ning.com/profiles/blog/list?tag=.> ,
daniel pinchbeck
<http://transitioncalifornia.ning.com/profiles/blog/list?tag=daniel+pinchbec
k> , economy
<http://transitioncalifornia.ning.com/profiles/blog/list?tag=economy> ,
realitysandwich
<http://transitioncalifornia.ning.com/profiles/blog/list?tag=realitysandwich
> , shamanism
<http://transitioncalifornia.ning.com/profiles/blog/list?tag=shamanism>  

 

 




	
FutureDawning.org 

	


Mary Rose
 <mailto:dustysummerrose at gmail.com> dustysummerrose at gmail.com 

	


 
<https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=206159508347&src=client_sig_212_1_card_join&
invite=1&lang=en> Always have my latest info

 <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_card_sig&lang=en> Want
a signature like this?

 

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From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 10 02:36:59 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:06:59 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] Carbon-neutral economy for ecologically sustainable
	habitats and livelihoods
In-Reply-To: <856770.33311.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <983862.8248.qm@web94904.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Dear Robert ,
?
I would like to recall my observations for the vision of high-tech computer controlled generation of money and here I would be repeat again as I am really concerned about the carbon-neutral processes for supporting the monetray transactions. We continue to have operation of barter in the rural areas of Bihar,Jharkhand and other remote locations where farmers continue to get the basic through exchanging farm produce.
?
Also, I do not agree with?observation that we can not weedout the institutionalised processes hampering distitributive justice. We have the option. We need not get trapped in some notion of being in certain evolutionary phase. We define the governance and governments and therefore, we need to do the needful communication,advocacy, mobilisation and campaign for eliminating usury, ecological audit of consumption pattern, public control on creation of debt free and interest free money.
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam

?


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From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 10 02:37:12 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:07:12 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] Carbon-neutral economy for ecologically sustainable
	habitats and livelihoods
In-Reply-To: <856770.33311.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <222655.89434.qm@web94905.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Dear Robert ,
?
I would like to recall my observations for the vision of high-tech computer controlled generation of money and here I would be repeat again as I am really concerned about the carbon-neutral processes for supporting the monetray transactions. We continue to have operation of barter in the rural areas of Bihar,Jharkhand and other remote locations where farmers continue to get the basic through exchanging farm produce.
?
Also, I do not agree with?observation that we can not weedout the institutionalised processes hampering distitributive justice. We have the option. We need not get trapped in some notion of being in certain evolutionary phase. We define the governance and governments and therefore, we need to do the needful communication,advocacy, mobilisation and campaign for eliminating usury, ecological audit of consumption pattern, public control on creation of debt free and interest free money.
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam

?


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From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 10 02:37:18 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:07:18 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] Carbon-neutral economy for ecologically sustainable
	habitats and livelihoods
In-Reply-To: <856770.33311.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <558262.10757.qm@web94903.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Dear Robert ,
?
I would like to recall my observations for the vision of high-tech computer controlled generation of money and here I would be repeat again as I am really concerned about the carbon-neutral processes for supporting the monetray transactions. We continue to have operation of barter in the rural areas of Bihar,Jharkhand and other remote locations where farmers continue to get the basic through exchanging farm produce.
?
Also, I do not agree with?observation that we can not weedout the institutionalised processes hampering distitributive justice. We have the option. We need not get trapped in some notion of being in certain evolutionary phase. We define the governance and governments and therefore, we need to do the needful communication,advocacy, mobilisation and campaign for eliminating usury, ecological audit of consumption pattern, public control on creation of debt free and interest free money.
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam

?


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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jan 10 04:20:56 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:20:56 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Carbon-neutral economy for ecologically sustainable
	habitats and livelihoods
In-Reply-To: <558262.10757.qm@web94903.mail.in2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <524077.17005.qm@web27407.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

??? Dear Dr. Muhammad Muktar Alam,
?
?????????????????????? I am well aware that there are?many ?rural parts of India where bartaring continues. Yet, as you indicated it is very limited. There are though ofcourse even modern versions of barter too.
?
I agree that strictly speaking we need to weedout the "institulionised processess" but it is very difficult in extremis unless there is enough public support/pressure which appears to be unlikely as there is so much apathy around about all things economic, social, and political. This is?understandable but it creates the mental rot of inaction, and complacency.
?
I favour my ideas about TFE as being like an invention rather than? a political football. It is not actually important whether an elite exists or not?along with the corporations (plus smaller companies unconnected)in the present time. But it does matter if what they undertake leads to greater poverty, and environmental degradation. 
?
With TFE this can be?remedied with by an enhanced capitalism which allows for?positive global change?by supplying the necessary capital for small, medium-sized, and large projects which would have huge social, environmental and economic implications for all, and not just the few. 
?
In this context we are notably talking about those schemes that have little, or no commercial viability. They would ofcourse be made viable with the transmission of new money (produced in stages) as profit subsidies, commercial grants, and interest free loans. This process might be termed sustainable super-capitalism on a global scale.
?
Yet, the elite would still exist for the time being but the financially enhanced NGOs would have far greater clout to deal with issues of fairer wealth distribution and the like. Ultimately, after? a period of decades capitalism, and super-capitalism would arguably?phase ?itself out as the the process of achieving global sustainability via sustainable super-capitalism would be largely "complete".
?
It ?would have also achieved huge profits for the few? who would have?ALSO benefited?from??the mass production of sustainable automation of virtually the entire world . Thus work in the main, and money could then become redundant. This is a big subject!..
?
I have been through all this before!
?
Robert Searle
?


--- On Sat, 10/1/09, Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [GJM] Carbon-neutral economy for ecologically sustainable habitats and livelihoods
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net, dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Saturday, 10 January, 2009, 9:37 AM







Dear Robert ,
?
I would like to recall my observations for the vision of high-tech computer controlled generation of money and here I would be repeat again as I am really concerned about the carbon-neutral processes for supporting the monetray transactions. We continue to have operation of barter in the rural areas of Bihar,Jharkhand and other remote locations where farmers continue to get the basic through exchanging farm produce.
?
Also, I do not agree with?observation that we can not weedout the institutionalised processes hampering distitributive justice. We have the option. We need not get trapped in some notion of being in certain evolutionary phase. We define the governance and governments and therefore, we need to do the needful communication,advocacy, mobilisation and campaign for eliminating usury, ecological audit of consumption pattern, public control on creation of debt free and interest free money.
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam

?


Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Click here.


      
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From maryrose333 at att.net  Sat Jan 10 16:21:01 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:21:01 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: Re: A Progressive Brain Trust
Message-ID: <000001c9737a$1b750cf0$525f26d0$@net>

Having been circulating around the globe in the progressive social networks
in the beginning search for 1 million of the world's top minds for
FutureDawning.org, I do not see "democracy" as being our next form of
government - it is still based in "mob rule" and "winner take all" politics.
We are fast moving into a far more virtual and sophisticated world where the
Internet is playing a greater role than ever before.  The PLAXO network is
one where 20 million people are engaging

one another daily, forming small groups in order to do so. While PLAXO is
limited to 1,000 individual connections per member, there are ways to
augment this number and I am now close to 1200 connections on my list and
still growing. 

 

I have also joined Facebook where I am engaging people of a slightly
different bent  -- younger, more intelligent and intellectually inclined;
and from all around the world. What I am witnessing here and on PLAXO, is
the end of the Nation-State as the Internet recognizes no borders or
boundaries.  This is a "free zone" that is spreading from the Net to the
minds of those around the world as people connect with one another in almost
unimaginable ways, on an

earth that is becoming smaller and smaller due to communication technology
and the ability to hop on a plane and be somewhere halfway around the world
in a matter of hours. It is increasingly evident that these are people, who
by no means, intend to be boxed in by an ideology whether it be governmental
or religious in nature. 

 

The preponderance of those who note "spiritual" when asked for their
religious belief on the application form, which is made public, cannot help
but be noted.  These are "people of the world" and more inclined to look
more to the Earth Charter for guidance than to anything resembling a
constitution.

 

This is a world where Israeli  and  Arab are coming together, face-to-face
to conduct business, outside of the land-based and hate-filled world of
Zionist domination. 

 

The virtual world  is a world that is increasingly becoming more human with
people extending love and compassion to one another as they form virtual
communities and friendships via social networking.  There is no room for
hate here .  I find myself reaching out and making an extra effort to
connect with 

those from other parts of the world who are different, and it is reciprocal.
It is both invigorating and rewarding as we come together to exchange ideas
on to how to make this world a better place.    

 

What stands out for me from this experience, is the potential for a
"Netocracy," such as that envisioned by Dimitar Tchurovsky, a member of the
Global Justice Movement List, to emerge.

 

The "Blessed Unrest" movement is truly a "blessed event".   May we all be
embraced by it. 

 

>From the desk of 

  mary rose

      Please join me on either Plaxo or Facebook.  

      Blog and Newsletter for FutureDawning.org in process. 

      FutureDawning.org is a work in progress.  We have some legal matters
to attend to 

        in order to protect both ourselves and members from litigation.  

 

 

From: FixGov at yahoogroups.com [mailto:FixGov at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
tranet at rangeley.org
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 7:21 AM
To: FixGov FixGov
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [FixGov] A Progressive Brain Trust for Obama

 

BE:
Some time ago the below suggestion and some nominations,
and an invitation for us to add others in a
Nongovernmetnal Progressive Brain Trust for Obama
was circulated on the Internet. I forwarded it to FixGov.
Here it is again with a good number of additions. If you
have others to add, add them and pass it on.

Bill Ellis

>
> On 08, Jan 2009, at 1:08 AM, rolf.oberer wrote:
>>
>> OPINIONS: "What is the best or best possible form of government? 
>> Why?" By Lyman (us)
>
> Democracy is clearly the best form of government.
> But that is a democracy, of the people. for the people. and by the 
> people. That was impossible in 1776 when our Founding Fathers created 
> the first democracy on earth. The means of communication and travel 
> limited it to representative democracy in which a small elite makes 
> the decisions for all.
> Today with nanosecond communication around the world we can think or a 
> true democracy in which every person has a voice in every decision 
> that affects his or her life..
> As we design that we can eliminate corporate greed and consumerism. 
> They are the inevitable results of the values of self-interest, 
> competition and materialism. A change in these were the campaign 
> promise of President Elect Obama. To date his inner circle is diverse 
> but composed of proponents of reviving the old economic system, rather 
> than installing a new one based on new values of publc interest, 
> cooperation and the health of Gais (The Earth and all of its life 
> forms including humans.)
>
> There is a real progressive movement that has been promoting change 
> for a few decades. (See Hawken's "Blessed Unrest.) The best form of 
> government could be assured with the formation of a Nongovernmental 
> Progessive Brain Trust. Nomination for such a brain trust have been 
> circulting on the Internet for a few weeks. You may help promote the 
> idea by adding your nominations and sending it on to other lists. And 
> to Barak Obama. It below
>
>
>> Suggestions for an Obama Nongovernmental Progressive Brain Trust:
>>
>>
>> David Brower Wes Jackson Donald Kennedy
>> Charlrne Spretnak Thomas Berry Lawwrence Tribe
>> Paul Hawken, Herman Daly. Jane Goodall
>> Frijof Capra, Stewart Brand, Warren Buffet
>> David Suzuki, Pierre Omidyar, Joseph Stiglitz
>> Wendell Berry Elise Boukding Dennis Kucinich
>> Hazel Henderson, Gordon Moore, Barbara Tuchman
>> Jeff Skoll, George Soros, Mitchell Feigenbaum
>> Murray Gell-Mann John Hubbard Bill Moyers
>> Wolfgang Sachs Bill Gates Randy Hayes
>> OlympiaSnowe David Korten Barbara McKinney
>> John Todd David Orr Ted Turner
>> Mark Kak Al Gore Francis Fukuyama
>> Winona Laduke` Ralph Nader Matthew Rothschild
>> Kirkpatrick Sale David Morris
>> Ron Miller Jerry Mintz
>> Jeremy Rifkin Irvin Laszlo
>> Peter Senge Charles Hayes
>> 
>> 

__._,_.___ 

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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jan 11 05:24:47 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:24:47 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Looking For Info
In-Reply-To: <BLU116-W10ACAD32097887216E8924BDDA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <976294.87487.qm@web27406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?? 

--- On Sat, 10/1/09, John G Rawson <johngrawson at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: John G Rawson <johngrawson at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: "Socred elistas" <socialcredit at elistas.com>
Date: Saturday, 10 January, 2009, 9:25 PM




#yiv783853903 .hmmessage P
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Greetings all. First, let's face it.? Douglas got frustrated later in life and became anti-semitic in some of his writings.? The fact that about 60% of Britons then would have agreed with him then has been overlooked.? It was fashionable. But we now have to live with it. It was an error on my part to mention it in passing.
Helge, what you state is right on the button.? Except that, while those who control money can also control the media, we will not get unbiassed media. When SC first went political in NZ we had to get a lawyer member to demand that our main and best newspaper accept a paid advertisement from us! I believe wartime regulations about subversive movements were cited. Our TV are the worst here, regularly running distorted and misleading material regarding monetary affairs. I presently have a formal complaint in with our Complaints Authority on one programme, and although I have given cast-iron proof that the two main points in the programme (one that banks lend money deposited with them) are wrong, it is most unlikely that it will succeed.
Joe, apologies for slightly excessive bluntness, but perhaps it stirred the debate along a bit. But you still appear confused between money issued as a debt that gets cancelled out of existence, leaving the debt,? and debt-free money issued so that when the same thing happens to it it leaves no debt behind. Yet you tacitly advocate?the latter?for a Dividend etc.
I believe our political approach has had its annual hammering, so can we please have a look at the alternative? I'll number some points so that others can quote any where they disagree without repeating the text. 1. Some ruling body has to legislate S C proposals into reality, and,
1a. steer the programme into the right direction. 
2. (Step by step, please.) How will this be achieved? 
2b. (Optional!) What has the particular correspondent done to try to achieve this aim, and how far was progress made? 
3. Since we can not know what is practicable until we have?"proper national?accounts", the first step must be establishmentof an independent National Credit Authority to prepare one. How can this be made totally independent and still forced to follow SC principles? 
3a. In a constitutional monarchy, it could be separated to some extent from political control by coming under the Crown, like the judiciary. But these days Governors General are political appointees.? As are Attorneys General. Is there a problem there? Do nations without this freak constitution have an even worse problem?
4. Will the Credit Authority create money, or authorise some other body, treasury ior central bank, to do so? 
4a. Will it or government decide how the money is to be spent?
5. How will any nation repay its debt, internal and external?? 
That's probably plenty for a while.? 
Regards.

John R.





From: thomsonhiyu at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:03:40 -0800
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



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I wouldn't disagree with any of that, Helge.? Any discussion of whether Social Credit is "anti-semitic" or not is apt to be rather fruitless, however.? Since that catch-phrase, like many others of a similar ilk, is never clearly defined.?
?
?It is as nebulous as others that have crept into the lexicon of catch-phrases in recent years.? Ones in Canada ?like "distinct-society", or "aboriginal title", or "sovereingty-association".? Or my favourite, since it's so often used in conjunction with the lumber industry here in BC, "value-added".? Try and get a concise definition on that one from any of those who are always beating their gums in advocacy of it, and all the wonders it supposedly will bring!? And if I were to give one definition, what?I believe is the only correct one, how many of those calling for "'value-added" would agree with me.
?
And so it is with "anti-semitism".? It, like those others, means different things to different people, and trying to defend Social Credit itself against such a charge is likely to be an exercise in futility unless those making the charge first define clearly what they take that term to mean.? 
?
Interestingly, those who would make such a charge always seem? reluctant to do just that.?? Perhaps they realize that just because one "philosophy" is incompatible with another, this certainly does not mean any hatred need be inherent in either.? Of course if the policy of one philosophy embodies "live, and let live", while the other posits, "you'll live just as we tell you to live, or we'll make it impossible for you to live at all", we might have a problem.
?
Regards,
Joe
?
----- Original Message ----- 

From: helge nome 
To: Socialcreditlist 
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 9:04 PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

It is unfortunate that a link appears to have been established, in the popular mind, between Social Credit and anti-semitism. That gives the bankers a tool to divide and conquer the movement, which is what seems to have happened here in Alberta during the days of the provincial Socred government. 
The power of the state should be a concern for all citizens, irrespective of the kind of government elected into office.
The best way of keeping a government honest is to have a healthy democracy where citizens take an active part in decision making by their government. And that requires an unbiased press corps and an impartial judicial system.
Money has a strange way of infiltrating all of these in a corrosive way, as evidenced by what is happening around us at this time.
Ideas which may seem to be "heretical" at first glance, in the field of economics, as in other areas of intellectual endeavour, may be deserving of a second look and further consideration before being discarded. (Remember Copernicus, Galileo and the Roman Catholic Church).
I agree with Per that we shall have to adapt to the present time and circumstances without backing away from the belief that the wealth of nations belong to the people who make up those nations, rather than the bankers who are merely the managers of that wealth, not the owners that they pretend to be.
Regards,
Helge Nome

> Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 22:56:02 +0100
> From: almgren_per at telia.com
> To: socialcredit at elistas.com
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
> 
> Joe Thomson skrev:
> > (John Rawson wrote:-) Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into 
> > circulation. And yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, 
> > of course, with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build 
> > autobahns etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a 
> > chance to link us further with anti-semitism.
> > 
> > (Joe replies:-) Linking "us further with anti-semitism" would be the 
> > least of my concerns over this method of approach, John. You may not 
> > be aware of it, but what you are proposing is the building of a 
> > totalitarian "slave state", not a one in which "individual" freedom 
> > will be allowed to develop and flourish. That the "slaves" will be 
> > well fed and quartered, while they're needed, is of little 
> > consequence. They're still "slaves", beholden for their continued 
> > sustenance to "servitude" to the "State" and the "system" it imposes 
> > on them.
> In my opinion this writing of "slave state" is not what John describes. 
> My impression now is that there is to much arguing of what Douglas have 
> expressed in a special situation in this list and I think that if Social 
> Credit should be of any use in the future, it must be allowed to adjust 
> to realities of to-day. If no new thinking is accepted, there is not 
> much use to discuss, it would just be a seminar of history, not a forum 
> for promoting useful ideas for practical use in the society.
> > 
> > This is the very antithesis of "Social Credit". It is "Fascism" 
> > without the more odious facets of that failed system fully revealing 
> > themselves. Which they soon would, if ever it were imposed. It is 
> > interesting that we have been duped into calling this 'anti-semitism' 
> > considering where such a policy likely originated. 
> This could not be called Fascism in the common meaning of the word.
> 
> Per Almgren
> > 
> > (John continues:-) And, of course, your argument that new money has to 
> > be repaid means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be 
> > in the same category, which is ridiculous.
> > 
> > (Joe replies:-) It is "repaid", John. It cancels that portion of 
> > /existing/ debt charges that could not otherwise be repaid. Without 
> > creating ANOTHER debt charge in the process. It is an "accounting 
> > adjustment" carried out in the economy as a whole to more fully allow 
> > the overall costs of production to be FINANCIALLY, as well as 
> > 'physically', self-liquidating with consumption. 
> > 
> > 
> > (John continues:-) An independent Credit Authority would assess how 
> > much new money needed to be put into circulation during the ensuing 
> > period without causing demand inflation. What that money was to be 
> > used for would be a political decision, even if it only considered a 
> > divarication between discount funds and those for a dividend. Or 
> > reducing taxation.
> > 
> > (Joe replies:-) I can generally agree with that provided it be 
> > realized this "new money" is applied to reducing prices to Consumers 
> > FIRST, not to funding other things which have additional "costs".
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Joe 
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* John G Rawson <mailto:johngrawson at hotmail.com>
> > *To:* Socred elistas <mailto:socialcredit at elistas.com>
> > *Sent:* Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:07 PM
> > *Subject:* RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
> >
> > For the first parts, you have valid points. I have never debated
> > whether or not some form of price control might be necessary. But
> > based on the rather inane information that had previously been
> > circulated, I could not see how this particular mechanism could be
> > practicable. Your new information at least clears part of that
> > objection.
> > Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And
> > yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course,
> > with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns
> > etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to
> > link us further with anti-semitism.
> > And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid
> > means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the
> > same category, which is ridiculous. An independent Credit
> > Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into
> > circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand
> > inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political
> > decision, even if it only considered a divarication between
> > discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.
> > The Ottawa agreement did nothing to increase trade or spending
> > power. All it did was to close shop against other nations. And
> > one of its minor sidelines was to force us to buy useless strains
> > of forest seed from you rather than the USA. The Douglas fir
> > appeared to have come from somewhere inside the arctic circle,
> > because the lengtrh of day effect made it bud burst far too early
> > in the spring so that it got frost-burned in our much milder
> > climate in the central Nth. Is. Then it hardened off about
> > Christmas and ceased growing through all the warm summer and
> > autumn period. I remember a compartment in Kaingaroa Forest
> > planted with both this strain and a normal one from Washington or
> > wherever. The boundary looked like a sudden cliff face as the
> > canopy dropped from one to the other.The only point I was making
> > over food subsidies was that we had a humanitarian government that
> > helped both public health and a major industry by the use of
> > debt-free credit. Rooseveldt's New Deal did something the same
> > thing on borrowed money. War expenditure finallly brought us right
> > out, and as a point of interest NZ (with strict import controls)
> > came out of the war with zero overseas debt. (And a bureaucracy
> > subsidised less healthy white floured bread, not wholemeal!)
> > But the government didn't "have to" subsidise food. People were
> > starving and it used one method to help them. Coming from a
> > (broke, ex-serviceman's) farm, I never went hungry. But I knew men
> > my age whose developmenmt was stunted for that reason.
> > It seems we may have to revisit times like that before enough
> > people will again consider monetary reform. in any shape, SC or other.
> >
> > John R.
> >
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
> You're subscribed to this list with the email helgenome at hotmail.com
> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit



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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jan 11 10:01:36 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:01:36 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Bank chiefs hold talks with PM
Message-ID: <378189.7129.qm@web27402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Bank chiefs hold talks with PM

5 hours 4 mins ago 

Print Story 

The heads of the UK's biggest banks gathered at Prime Minister Gordon Brown's weekend Chequers retreat as new plans to kick-start lending took a step closer. Skip related content



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Related Hot Topic: Financial Crisis 

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Lloyds TSB chief executive Eric Daniels and Barclays chairman Marcus Agius are among the guests along with Chancellor Alistair Darling and London Stock Exchange chairman Chris Gibson-Smith, the Sunday Times said.
A Downing Street spokesman played down the meeting, calling it a "long-standing lunch" which had been in the diary for some time.
But the gathering will fuel speculation over the latest steps to help a beleaguered banking sector and boost lending to ailing businesses.
Since October, UK banks have been given guarantees worth hundreds of billions and ?37 billion in taxpayer cash to strengthen their finances. This has left the State as a majority shareholder in Royal Bank of Scotland and likely to own almost half of Lloyds TSB and HBOS when their merger completes this week.
Despite these moves, the Bank of England's latest survey said lending to businesses and households was set to decline further in the first three months of 2009.
The new aid plans - set to be unveiled in the next fortnight, according to the report - are said to include loan guarantees for firms of all sizes, and official insurance for securitisations of mortgages and other loans as suggested by former HBOS boss Sir James Crosby last year.
Before the credit crunch, banks raised vast amounts for new lending by "securitising" - packaging up and selling - loans of all types. But this market dried up when confidence was shattered in 2007 by rising defaults among US borrowers with poorer credit histories, making cash for lending scarcer and destroying the business model of now-nationalised Northern Rock.
The latest help for the beleaguered sector comes as leading accountants are said to have warned that they may not be able to sign off the accounts of the UK's leading banks.
At a secret meeting with City minister Lord Myners before Christmas, partners from the UK's "big four" accountants - Ernst & Young, PriceWaterhouseCoopers, Deloitte and KPMG said they were not sure they could state banks and building societies were a "going concern" under accounting rules, the Sunday Times added.

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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jan 11 10:04:10 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:04:10 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Looking For Info
In-Reply-To: <FB746B34-3FC9-4424-8DFD-BE271C2D4B4E@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <861420.14771.qm@web27405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Sun, 11/1/09, Wallace Klinck <wmklinck at shaw.ca> wrote:

From: Wallace Klinck <wmklinck at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sunday, 11 January, 2009, 8:58 AM


Some comments inserted in CAPITAL LETTERS.
Wally





On 10-Jan-09, at 1:02 AM, Joe Thomson wrote:



?

?
?
(John Rawson wrote:-)? Joe, your first point is unfounded and ridiculous emotionalism.? Unless you accept that the slave state already exists.? If so, who do you prefer to be the slavemasters, elected people you have a chance of sacking, or faceless permanent ones behind the scenes? ?THIS IS A RATHER ASTONISHING STATEMENT. ?ANYONE WHO HAS THE SLIGHTEST FAMILIARITY WITH THE SOCIAL CREDIT ANALYSIS AND PROPOSALS IS QUITE AWARE THAT THE SLAVE STATE EXISTS AND IS BECOMING EVER STRENGTHENED TO THE DETRIMENT OF IMMANENT SOVEREIGNTY. ?SOCIAL CREDIT POLICY IS TO FIRMLY OPPOSE AND ELIMINATE THE EXISTENCE OF SLAVE-MASTERS. ?TO ASK THE QUESTION OF A SOCIAL CREDITER WHICH FORM OF SLAVE-MASTERS HE OR SHE WOULD PREFER IS QUITE PREPOSTEROUS. ?MOREOVER, I THINK THAT THE LAST CENTURY OR SO HAS DEMONSTRATED BEYOND ANY DOUBT THE DANGERS OF STATE POWER DEVOLVING INTO A SYSTEM OF OVERT TYRANNY. ?ASK ANY OF THOSE MANY WHO HAVE SUFFERED UNDER THAT YOKE.
?
(Joe replies:-)? The "slave state" already? exists.? The present financial system is a near perfect means for?making?people "work". ?MOST ASSUREDLY THE CASE. ?THE UNIVERSAL POLICY OF PROVIDING FULL OR NEAR-FULL EMPLOYMENT WITH INCOMES TO BE DERIVED ESSENTIALLY ONLY FROM WORK PERFORMED UNDER EXTERNAL DIRECTION IN THE CONTEXT OF ENDLESS PRICE INFLATION IS PROOF-POSITIVE OF THE SUBJUGATION OF THE POPULATION TO THE WORK-STATE MENTALITY OF COMMUNISM AND FASCISM--IMPLEMENTED TODAY BY FABIAN SOCIALIST KEYNESIAN POLICY. ?NOT ONLY ARE WE FORCED TO "WORK" BUT WE ARE FORCED AS A MEANS OF SURVIVAL TO WORK FOR WASTEFUL AND EVEN DESTRUCTIVE ENDS SUCH AS WAR--WHICH PROVIDES LOTS OF "JOBS" FOR EVERYONE.
?
?I don't prefer to have any "slavemasters". Whether they be 'elected' and the visible faces of those who really pull the strings, who are certainly NOT?we who elected them, or the?actual string pullers themselves.?
?
Nor?do I want to??see? the ?"State" be in a position where it, or any agency?within it, ?can deny its citizens the means of? full access to that for which they've already worked? unless they work some more first. ?PRECISELY. ?HAS ANYONE SEEN A WORM, UPON FINDING A MORSEL, FREEZE WITH GUILT AND SEEKING FIRST A "JOB" TO JUSTIFY CONSUMING THE MORSEL. ?NOT ONLY IS THE SLAVE STATE UPON US--IT IS HERE BECAUSE OF OUR UNIVERSAL AND PERVERSE VIOLATION OF NATURAL LAW--BECAUSE OF OUR MESMERIZATION INTO ACCEPTING A FALSE "MORAL" IMPERATIVE, I.E., THAT OF SALVATION THROUGH WORKS RATHER THAN THROUGH FAITH AND GRACE.
?
I personally prefer to be in the "aristocracy of production", recognising full well that it is a 'priviledge' to remain there.??And to be able to continue to?willingly serve?the larger "democracy of consumption" of which I'm also a part.????So long as my efforts in that endeavour are useful and needed.? If they're not, then I don't think I'd have too much difficulty?finding something equally enjoyable to do. DOUGLAS UPHELD THE IDEA OF AN "ARISTOCRACY OF PRODUCERS, SERVING AND ACCREDITED BY A DEMOCRACY OF CONSUMERS." ?THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR QUALITY BUT THERE MUST BE ALSO ACCOUNTABILITY AND A SERVICE ETHIC. ?LABOUR SEEMS NEVER TO HAVE PROPERLY UNDERSTOOD THIS PRINCIPLE.
?
This does not, of course mean that everyone could just stop working, and go off and do their own thing whenever they pleased.? Or would.? Rather it is the difference between "contract under duress" ~?association agreements?freely?entered into, ?but whose terms are enforceable by some penalty on violation; and being "under duress to enter the contract" in the first place. ?THIS IS A REASONABLE STATEMENT SO FAR AS IT GOES BUT NEVERTHELESS IN A HIGHLY TECHNOLOGICAL STATE MANY COULD, AND PROBABLY SHOULD, JOIN THE LEISURED CLASS. ?REMEMBER, "HE WHO CALLS FOR 'FULL-EMPLOYMENT' CALLS FOR WAR."
?
People?have to work,?at something.? It's?part of the nature of every human.? But "work" is simply a means to an end, not the end itself. ?OF COURSE--IS IT NOT TRUE THAT IN CHRISTIAN ETHICS IT IS A SIN TO ELEVATE A MEANS INTO AN END? ?And "issuing money" to pay for infrastructure as you say your Reserve Bank did, even if it were desirable and there were no other considerations, is still?making?your citizens "work"?again to be able to fully claim that which they've already worked for. ?I THINK THAT A SOMEWHAT MORE ACCURATE STATEMENT WOULD BE THAT THE HEALTHY INDIVIDUAL NEEDS NOT NECESSARILY TO "WORK" IN THE CONVENTIONAL SENSE--BUT RATHER REQUIRES FULFILMENT OF HIS OR HER ESSENTIAL CREATIVITY AND CURIOSITY IN BEING ACTIVE IN SOME WAY OR ANOTHER. ?LEISURE PROVIDES THE ULTIMATE OPPORTUNITY FOR SUCH FULFILLING ACTIVITY. ?
?
The ND and CPD are not?making?them do anything. But what they?choose to do, in the future, if it's in any ways useful and adds to the "real credit" of the community, (as any sensible 'infrastructure' naturally would), will be reflected in a larger ND and CPD in that future. BY PROVIDING A GROWING SOURCE OF ASSURED INCOME INDEPENDENT OF ANY EARNED INCOME THE NATIONAL DIVIDEND AND THE COMPENSATED PRICE WOULD INCREASINGLY FREE INDIVIDUALS FOR SELF-CHOSEN ACTIVITY. ?IF ANYONE IS SO MISGUIDED AS TO BE EMBARRASSED OR OFFENDED AT GETTING "SOMETHING FOR NOTHING", THEY CAN REFUSE IT OR DONATE IT TO WHATEVER PURPOSE OR CAUSE THEY MIGHT CHOOSE. ?

(John continues:-)??For your second one, you are confusing "cancellation" with "repayment".? The former reduces debt, the second increases it. Whatever way new money is put into circulation, sooner or later it meets overdrawn accounts and is cancelled out of existence.
?
(Joe replies:-)? Your?Firms?cannot fully?cancel existing costs through prices and?repay the loans that initiated those costs unless your Consumers have the means?to?fully pay them.?? ?



---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email wmklinck at shaw.ca
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jan 11 10:23:08 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:23:08 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Jewish Economics!!!!
Message-ID: <316106.87131.qm@web27406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Dear All,
?
?????????? As one can be imagined economics plays a big part of the Talmud!!!
?
?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2ibiE23_8gw
?
?
R.Searle.


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jan 11 10:42:43 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:42:43 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Vid similiar to Money as Debt
Message-ID: <75870.93867.qm@web27407.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Might be of interest.
?
? http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Ivo4VtfQhlw&feature=channel_page
?
R.Searle


      
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From maryrose333 at att.net  Sun Jan 11 19:40:11 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:40:11 -0800
Subject: [GJM] A Whole New World
Message-ID: <000301c9745f$1b29a900$517cfb00$@net>

This is an  article written by Futurist -
<http://www.plaxo.com/profile/show/8589937413?pk=a3cd678d2ae3fbe7f6fed6d5c22
c80e3e1dfc802> Richard David Hames 

Distinguished Professor, Dhurakij Pundit University

Thong Lo, Bangkok, Thailand 

Published as a PLAXO Blog 

23 November 2008 

 

A Whole New World

Do you remember the year 2000? How exciting the world seemed back then and
how we were all talking about the promise of a new millennium? 

Starting around then, business corporations and governments alike entered an
unprecedented period of uncertainty, frustrating ambiguity, and disruptive
change. At the time we probably did not really understand what was going on.
But what initially seemed like just another phase of globalization has
become a race to reinvent civilization. 

How do we know? Because a series of cascading failures in our economic,
social, political and environmental systems are providing clear evidence
that our current way of life is not sustainable; that the principles on
which we built our economy are inadequate for an increasingly interconnected
global population approaching 6.5 billion people. 

In the past easy credit gave rise to easy consumption. Easy consumption
prompted material excess and debt to the extent that we now require the
resources of two and a half planets merely to meet our current ravenous
demands for more of everything. This cannot go on. As the Club of Rome
famously predicted in 1972, there are indeed limits to further growth.

During the coming decade many of our most venerable institutions and iconic
companies will hit the wall. They will go out of business as we transit to a
society based upon cooperation rather than competition, business models
turned upside down by new technologies, and an economy founded upon
renewable resources rather than on toxic petrochemicals. 

This is the new revolution. It is a revolution will irrevocably alter the
basic patterns of human production and consumption. It will also
fundamentally change the nature of business and, as a consequence, the role
of company boards, directors and managers. 

Many people still do not comprehend the profound changes that are occurring
as a result of living in a globalized world. Some do understand but prefer
to ignore the long-term consequences while they focus on meeting short-term
goals. For others, like Citigroup and General Motors, it is already a matter
of survival. For companies like Lehman Brothers, as we know, it is already
too late!

In terms of the current global economic crisis many pundits believe what we
are experiencing is cyclical and that things will eventually return to
normal. They are wrong. The global credit crisis is symptomatic of something
much larger; something barely controllable. Indeed, if by some misfortune we
were to return to normal we would only setting ourselves up to suffer
greater and more prolonged socio-economic disturbances in the future.

The truth is that things can never return to normal. Business as usual is
becoming a distant memory and we had all better wake up to what is really
going on before it is too late. 

Let us start with the major cause of today's angst. Globalization. Of course
globalization is not a new phenomenon. It can be traced back at least to the
early years of the 15th century when nation states sent out entire fleets of
adventurers intent on finding, plundering and colonizing new lands. That
early phase of globalization still continues today - as evident from the US
invasion of Iraq.

The second great phase of globalization was triggered by the invention of
the steam engine which heralded the industrial revolution. For the first
time goods could be produced for the masses rather than just for the
neighbors. Now the explorers were business corporations who sent out hordes
of executives in search of new markets and cheap labor. Again this phase
continues today in a continuous search for managing the costs of production
and sourcing new talent.

The third phase of globalization began around the year 2000 as new
information and communications technologies began destroying entire empires
(witness the demise of communism in the Soviet Union) at the same time
liberating individuals who could now connect and transact with anyone,
anywhere, at any time.

These accumulated phases of globalization have created a world in which
traditional business practices and assumptions are increasingly irrelevant.
Where geography is often a delusion. Where traditional industry boundaries
mean absolutely nothing. And where power is exercised not by conventional
means (such as ownership of property or political strength) but by
ingenuity, timing, daring, creativity and innovation. 

Ultimately the result of these successive phases of globalization is a world
where we are experiencing extraordinary tensions between the best and the
worst of human desires: 

A world where, for the first time in history, we are all interconnected and
can share each other's stories. A world in which international trade and the
expansion of commerce have given us luxuries and a quality of life we never
dreamed possible. A world in which technological breakthroughs offer the
promise of eradicating many diseases, prolonging life and enabling safer,
more secure urban environments. A world where even poverty is being
inexorably ground down..

Unfortunately it is also an uncertain world in which a burgeoning population
is rapidly depleting the planet's natural resources. A world where envy,
greed, fear and superstition still generate extreme actions, conflict and
terror and where decaying empires delight in bullying less powerful nations.
It is also a world where spiraling food costs and global warming are
displacing millions of people, tipping them back into the poverty trap. 

Meanwhile the increasingly desperate actions of central bankers, politicians
and neo-liberal economists are simply evidence of the intellectual
impoverishment of a ruling elite that seem oblivious to a reality for which
they are responsible. They live in the past, refusing to acknowledge even
glimpses of a future they cannot comprehend. Which is terrifying. For the
forces that caused this uneasy state of globalism have not finished with us
yet. They continue to converge at warp speed, creating highly volatile,
novel, complex conditions characterized by uncertainty, ambiguity and
continuous disruptive change. 

The only way out of this predicament is through reinvention and renewal. Our
current ways are simply not viable. On our current trajectory we are, quite
literally, intent on destroying our future and that of our children.

But to reinvent business and governance requires a morality that seems to
have sucked into a black hole of excessive corporate salary packages. It
also demands an awakening to new, creative and innovative thinking. Albert
Einstein famously noted that it is impossible to solve today's problems with
the same thinking that caused the problems in the first place. If business
is to survive and prosper in the current turmoil, let alone in the longer
term, we need to think differently.

In effect we need to redesign every critical system in our civilization from
an altogether higher level of consciousness, particularly regarding
intentions, ownership, possibilities and opportunities.

We have been educated to think in analytical, mechanistic and linear terms;
identifying discrete problems and splitting them up into smaller and smaller
parts from which we hope to be able to explain the whole. We now know that
is futile in the current environment.

The most brilliant entrepreneurial business minds do not work this way.
Instead, they include apparently inconsequential features in their search
for salient patterns and trends. They then synthesize information until they
have a coherent picture of the whole system - their critical domain of
attention, if you will. 
>From there they are able to transcend unacceptable trade-offs (like focusing
on the short-term at the expense of the future) and avoid band-aid solutions
(like creating massive redundancies), creating  instead resilient strategies
that are difficult to copy, are in harmony with society's needs, are
profitable, and add considerable value to the business in the long term. 

That is the kind of thinking we must begin to apply in our businesses and
our institutions. To be successful in tomorrow's environment demands a new
set of assumptions as well as different practices and different outcomes. 

Company directors and executives need to reinvent what they do and how they
do it in order to future-proof their business. Politicians and bureaucrats,
too, must do the same, in essence establishing an ethos, purpose and
direction that is both compelling, relevant and sufficient for our needs;
investing resources in ways that realize that purpose while improving
long-term capability; delivering clean, benign, yet innovative products and
practices; and ensuring excellent management through appropriate governance
activities based on the deepest humanitarian principles.

For any business to remain viable in the coming decade (and governments too
for that matter) they must learn to re-focus their attention on the things
that really matter. In particular directors and politicians need to exercise
global (rather than parochial) leadership, not merely by punctuating
external events but by imagining altogether new possibilities, while company
executives and government bureaucrats need to re-frame the purpose for which
management was originally conceived. 

Part of that process is learning to think in ways that transcend current
issues and dilemmas. Part is refusing to accept standards and practices that
were designed for an age that has long past. Yet another part, equally
critical, is the willingness to reinvent the roles of directors and managers
for a future in which collaborative relationships, rather than competition,
will dominate the global business landscape. 

Ultimately, applying sound strategic leadership and ensuring relevant
strategic management will bring success in an environment characterized by
disruptive change. But continuing to bury our heads in the sands of change
will bring nothing but misfortune and further chaos.

 

Dr. Hames is indicative of the new membership of FutureDawning.org 

We will be featuring articles from select members from time to time. 

 

 




	
FutureDawning.org 

	


Mary Rose
 <mailto:dustysummerrose at gmail.com> dustysummerrose at gmail.com 

	


 
<https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=206159508347&src=client_sig_212_1_card_join&
invite=1&lang=en> Always have my latest info

 <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_card_sig&lang=en> Want
a signature like this?

 

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From maryrose333 at att.net  Sun Jan 11 22:19:44 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:19:44 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: Check out "Greening the Ghetto / Can a remedy serve for
	both global warming and poverty? by Elizabeth Kolbert" on
	Transition California
Message-ID: <000001c97475$64f91190$2eeb34b0$@net>

Hi Everyone, I cannot emphasize how important it is to link up with either Transition California or Transition US which can be accessed from the California site.   The road ahead is going to be a very rough and bumpy one, so prepare yourself and join a group where you have local support yet are linked in to Internet access for national and international news.    

I know that the Transition California group is also supporting Julian Darley and Richard Heinberg?s efforts with the Post Carbon Institute. www.postcarbon.net  

Also recommend that someone in the community get a copy of Thomas Greco?s book: MONEY and be prepared to set up a local currency system if your community has not already done so.    <http://www.reinventingmoney.com/> www.reinventingmoney.com/

There is every indication that we are fast moving into green, except I was very concerned to learn that the new administration is going to push bio-fuels and we?ve already been there done that and know what it can do as far as food shortages and higher gasoline prices go.  

Consideration is being given to increasing the size of our garden space here on the ranch. and I highly recommend that each and every one of you figure out how you are going to raise food for yourselves.   If you live in an apartment complex, consider patio gardening in pots, getting together as a community group and approaching the unit owner(s) with utilizing the green space as an ?edible gardening/landscaping? space.  Learn how to grow sprouts indoors and even garden indoors in pots near windows and sliding glass doors.  Be sure you have a  supply of seeds on hand and beans for sprouting.  If you live in a single family dwelling, no matter how small your yard,  use edible landscaping and raise your own food.  You can Google for this information --  there is plenty available on the Net.  Reach out to those without computers and ensure that they get the information using face-to-face meetings.  

The reason, I?m saying face-to-face is that one of the main things we need to do is to cut down on the use of  paper.  Don?t print anything out unless it is absolutely essential.  The cutting down of trees to print magazines  newspapers, advertising, the printing of books, packaging of products, use of flyers, mailing items, etc.,  as well as for grazing cattle and raising sorghum to feed them. has reduced old growth forests on a major scale internationally.  The reduction of old growth forests has impacted our ecological systems in a major way and is instrumental in creating global climate change.  Deforestation leads to desertification and loss of topsoil.   Yet most of the paper we use also finds its way into the dumps rather than into recycling centers.  Desertification leads to loss of rainfall in large areas.  And as droughts occur the government attempts to mitigate this condition by using chemicals sprayed from planes in an effort to ?seed? cloud formations and bring rainfall.  Some of these chemicals may be harmful to our health.  But drought conditions may be even more harmful as it reduces in number, species necessary to maintain ecosystems balance.  Everything we do has a consequential action attached to it.  Before we do anything, we need to seriously consider the consequences ? does the upside create a downside somewhere along the chain the cancels out the benefits of the action? We must begin to weigh these things carefully.  . .  

And, whatever you do, don?t forget to do it organically.  We already have 146 dead spots in the ocean due mainly to toxic agricultural runoff.  There is one spot in the Gulf of Mexico off the coast of Texas that is approximately the size of Louisiana.  This is mainly due to the runoff from the Mississippi River  carrying  agricultural toxins which end up in the Gulf.   Some researchers estimate we have only about 10 years before the ocean itself becomes a dead  zone.      

I can go on and on here, but it is up to each of us to become ?conscious consumers? and make responsible decisions in the best interests of all concerned.  The life you save may be your own and that of your children and grandchildren.           

 

From: bob banner [mailto:share at transitioncalifornia.ning.com] 
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 11:05 PM
To: mary rose
Subject: Check out "Greening the Ghetto / Can a remedy serve for both global warming and poverty? by Elizabeth Kolbert" on Transition California

 



Transition California

 



 <http://transitioncalifornia.ning.com/xn/detail/u_bobbanner> bob banner

 <http://transitioncalifornia.ning.com/xn/detail/u_bobbanner> bob banner

Check out the blog post 'Greening the Ghetto / Can a remedy serve for both global warming and poverty? by Elizabeth Kolbert'

See the new New Yorker (Jan 12) with an article by Elizabeth Kolbert on:
Greening the Ghetto / Can a remedy serve for both global warming and poverty?

Van Jones: building an ?everybody movement.?

Blog post added by  <http://transitioncalifornia.ning.com/xn/detail/u_bobbanner> bob banner:


The Political Scene Greening the Ghetto Can a remedy serve for both global warming and poverty? by Elizabeth Kolbert January 12, 2009 htt...

Blog post link:

Greening <http://transitioncalifornia.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2379767%3ABlogPost%3A7970&xgs=1>  the Ghetto / Can a remedy serve for both global warming and poverty? by Elizabeth Kolbert

About Transition California

BUY LOCAL! EAT LOCAL! GROW YOUR OWN! LOCAL ENERGY! LIVING LOCAL ECONOMIES! TRANSITIONING FROM OIL DEPENDENCE TO LOCAL RESILIENCE!


 <http://transitioncalifornia.ning.com> Transition California

338 members
70 photos
47 videos

82 discussions
43 events
31 blog posts

 

To control which emails you receive on Transition California, click <http://transitioncalifornia.ning.com/?xgo=sVVswSAhZaH1XBMmonUVwWXvoZh-Q9UbNCha7tgPvZdyNT1flEaecg>  here

  <http://transitioncalifornia.ning.com/xn_resources/widgets/index/gfx/spacer.gif?msgtype=share.Blog+Post> 

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From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 12 00:18:47 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:48:47 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] FW: Check out "Greening the Ghetto / Can a remedy serve
	for both global warming and poverty? by Elizabeth Kolbert" on
	Transition California
In-Reply-To: <000001c97475$64f91190$2eeb34b0$@net>
Message-ID: <644635.21613.qm@web94908.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Dear Mary,
?
I am pleased with the initiatives for greening and thinking on the transition for ecologically sustainable US. Transition california appears to be working for making the habitats ecologically sustainable with reinvigorating the local sustainable systems for basic needs.This initiative appears to be towards generating more and more initiatives for carbon-neutral money,economy and habitats. As you are aware I have been calling for preparation for the end of petro-modern transport systems. Centre for Ecological Audit ,Social Inclusion and Goverance (CEASIG) has been calling for promoting carbon neutral neighbourhood consultations (CNNDs) for generating more and more ecologically benevolent responses locally and globally.
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam


--- On Mon, 12/1/09, mary rose <maryrose333 at att.net> wrote:

From: mary rose <maryrose333 at att.net>
Subject: [GJM] FW: Check out "Greening the Ghetto / Can a remedy serve for both global warming and poverty? by Elizabeth Kolbert" on Transition California
To: "'Discussion Forum for Global Justice'" <discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>, FixGov at yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 12 January, 2009, 10:49 AM








#yiv1827259420 p.MsoNormal
	{margin-left:12.0pt;}



Hi Everyone, I cannot emphasize how important it is to link up with either Transition California or Transition US which can be accessed from the California site.?? The road ahead is going to be a very rough and bumpy one, so prepare yourself and join a group where you have local support yet are linked in to Internet access for national and international news. ???
I know that the Transition California group is also supporting Julian Darley and Richard Heinberg?s efforts with the Post Carbon Institute. www.postcarbon.net ?
Also recommend that someone in the community get a copy of Thomas Greco?s book: MONEY and be prepared to set up a local currency system if your community has not already done so. ??www.reinventingmoney.com/
There is every indication that we are fast moving into green, except I was very concerned to learn that the new administration is going to push bio-fuels and we?ve already been there done that and know what it can do as far as food shortages and higher gasoline prices go.? 
Consideration is being given to increasing the size of our garden space here on the ranch. and I highly recommend that each and every one of you figure out how you are going to raise food for yourselves.?? If you live in an apartment complex, consider patio gardening in pots, getting together as a community group and approaching the unit owner(s) with utilizing the green space as an ?edible gardening/landscaping? space.? Learn how to grow sprouts indoors and even garden indoors in pots near windows and sliding glass doors. ?Be sure you have a? supply of seeds on hand and beans for sprouting.? If you live in a single family dwelling, no matter how small your yard,? use edible landscaping and raise your own food.? You can Google for this information -- ?there is plenty available on the Net.? Reach out to those without computers and ensure that they get the information using face-to-face meetings.? 
The reason, I?m saying face-to-face is that one of the main things we need to do is to cut down on the use of ?paper.? Don?t print anything out unless it is absolutely essential.? The cutting down of trees to print magazines ?newspapers, advertising, the printing of books, packaging of products, use of flyers, mailing items, etc., ?as well as for grazing cattle and raising sorghum to feed them. has reduced old growth forests on a major scale internationally.? The reduction of old growth forests has impacted our ecological systems in a major way and is instrumental in creating global climate change.? Deforestation leads to desertification and loss of topsoil.? ?Yet most of the paper we use also finds its way into the dumps rather than into recycling centers.? Desertification leads to loss of rainfall in large areas.? And as droughts occur the government attempts to mitigate this condition by using chemicals sprayed from planes in an effort
 to ?seed? cloud formations and bring rainfall.? Some of these chemicals may be harmful to our health.? But drought conditions may be even more harmful as it reduces in number, species necessary to maintain ecosystems balance.? Everything we do has a consequential action attached to it.? Before we do anything, we need to seriously consider the consequences ? does the upside create a downside somewhere along the chain the cancels out the benefits of the action? We must begin to weigh these things carefully.? . .? 
And, whatever you do, don?t forget to do it organically.? We already have 146 dead spots in the ocean due mainly to toxic agricultural runoff.? There is one spot in the Gulf of Mexico off the coast of Texas that is approximately the size of Louisiana.? This is mainly due to the runoff from the Mississippi River ?carrying ?agricultural toxins which end up in the Gulf.? ?Some researchers estimate we have only about 10 years before the ocean itself becomes a dead? zone.? ????
I can go on and on here, but it is up to each of us to become ?conscious consumers? and make responsible decisions in the best interests of all concerned.? The life you save may be your own and that of your children and grandchildren. ??????????
?


From: bob banner [mailto:share at transitioncalifornia.ning.com] 
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 11:05 PM
To: mary rose
Subject: Check out "Greening the Ghetto / Can a remedy serve for both global warming and poverty? by Elizabeth Kolbert" on Transition California
?









Transition California
?









bob banner


Check out the blog post 'Greening the Ghetto / Can a remedy serve for both global warming and poverty? by Elizabeth Kolbert'
See the new New Yorker (Jan 12) with an article by Elizabeth Kolbert on:
Greening the Ghetto / Can a remedy serve for both global warming and poverty?

Van Jones: building an ?everybody movement.?

Blog post added by bob banner:

The Political Scene Greening the Ghetto Can a remedy serve for both global warming and poverty? by Elizabeth Kolbert January 12, 2009 htt...

Blog post link:
Greening the Ghetto / Can a remedy serve for both global warming and poverty? by Elizabeth Kolbert

About Transition California

BUY LOCAL! EAT LOCAL! GROW YOUR OWN! LOCAL ENERGY! LIVING LOCAL ECONOMIES! TRANSITIONING FROM OIL DEPENDENCE TO LOCAL RESILIENCE!






338 members
70 photos
47 videos

82 discussions
43 events
31 blog posts

?

To control which emails you receive on Transition California, click here
_______________________________________________
Discussion mailing list
Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
http://globaljusticemovement.net/mailman/listinfo/discussion_globaljusticemovement.net



      Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address
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From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 12 00:40:03 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:10:03 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] Fw: Some Great Stuff on the floor of Congress
Message-ID: <182220.82562.qm@web94903.mail.in2.yahoo.com>



--- On Mon, 12/1/09, AMI <ami at taconic.net> wrote:

From: AMI <ami at taconic.net>
Subject: Some Great Stuff on the floor of Congress
To: "AMI" <ami at taconic.net>
Date: Monday, 12 January, 2009, 12:52 AM


Dear Friends of the American Monetary Institute,

First a belated Merry Christmas, Happy New Year and Seasons Greetings to all!

2008 was nasty in terms of the financial establishments long term harming of the American People? becoming visible to all. Many have long realized the damage that was being done; now there's no excuse for anyone to not see it - especially Congressmen!

The positive part of 2008 is we are closer to achieving monetary reforms than since the Great Depression. The developing financial devastation has begun to open minds to the great need for monetary reform. 

Some in Congress still believe that infrastructure expenditures are all that is needed (Forget the ones? who don't even want that - they won't be around for long!) but our best legislators understand this is the time for real monetary reform.

One of the clearest statements on how to do this ever delivered on the House Floor was made Friday by Congressman Dennis Kucinich. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR2EtMteHCg&feature=channel_page

Watch it over and over this Sunday! Email it to your friends and ask them to watch it, and to further email it to their friends, etc. Folks, this is the real thing. Help publicize it. Do what you can to support it. Understand monetary reform by reading the American Monetary Act at our website:
http://www.monetary.org/amacolorpamphlet.pdf

Stay in Touch in 09 friends. Its going to be an important year for monetary reform. We do need and rely on your help.
With very best wishes for a great 2009,
Stephen Zarlenga
Director
Ami





      Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan 12 05:39:08 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:39:08 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Looking For Info
In-Reply-To: <BLU116-W148F5F97EEF482846D11C0BDD80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <596808.89218.qm@web27404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Mon, 12/1/09, John G Rawson <johngrawson at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: John G Rawson <johngrawson at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: "Socred elistas" <socialcredit at elistas.com>
Date: Monday, 12 January, 2009, 3:18 AM




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NO Joe!?
Keep the theoretical vagaries for other parts of the discussion.
What would be your first practical step to attempt to obtain a SC economy?? Who would you approach, how would you do it, what would you use to get their attention and try to persuade them you were talking sense?? And if you have tried to do this, what level of success did you get?
In short, don't criticise unless you can demonstrate a better alternative.? Be construcrive.
Regards.

John R.





From: thomsonhiyu at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:17:07 -0800
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



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?

?
(John Rawson wrote:-)? No, Joe.? Lets start at the beginning and work through.
I want factual, practical steps, not vague generalities that may or not happen. 
?
(Joe replies:-? )? Okay, I'll go back to your questions from the beginning below.
?
?
(John continues:-) Particularly not arguments based on things that do not happen. like debt-free money now.
?
(Joe replies:-)? I'm afraid this "does" happen now, John.? It's been discussed on here before in an exchange between Vic Bridger and Bill Ryan.??And at other times, when the method used was? mentioned.? Remember that not only "loans create deposits" but also the "purchase of securities" by the Banks.? 
?
As I understand it, if I remember correctly, it involves "churning" ~?the creation and sale of securities amongst the banks themselves, on which commissions are paid.? These 'commissions' then enter the money supply "debt-free", in a manner of speaking, ?as the Banks spend what they have "earned".?
?
(John continues:-)? ?And not consumers making decisions on money we haven't even decided how they are going to get it. (I mean how, not in what form or process.)
?
(Joe replies:-) The "how" is through the National Dividend and Consumer Price Discount.? What Consumers decide to do with 'their' money is up to them.? So far as the CPD is concerned, nobody "gets" anything until the Consumer decides to buy some product from a merchant who has agreed to participate in the scheme.? Then he effectively gets the product at a lower price.? 
?
The advantages to any? merchant should be obvious.? He is enabled to sell 'more' product, provided there is a 'real' demand for that product, and?increase his profit from having a greater turnover.? (He may, with that larger turnover, be even able to lower his price in competition with other merchants.)?? 
?
>From this increase in sales, there is increased economic activity.? Without 'inflation', since "existing" financial costs can then be more fully liquidated without the necessity of introducing more money in respect of things Consumers do not currently buy.? 
?
Now back to your questions.? You wrote:-
1. Some ruling body has to legislate S C proposals into reality, and,
1a. steer the programme into the right direction.
?
Yes, that would seem to me to be a job?for a Parliament, Legislature, or Congress.? 

2. (Step by step, please.) How will this be achieved? 

Obviously by having sufficient pressure applied on those who are elected to those bodies to do what is necessary.? They "yield to pressure", that is their job.? The?question here is, I think, from "where" will that "pressure" come.? 
?
Obviously if conditions deteriorate as they seem to be doing at present there will be a general pressure applied by the "public" to "do something".???To at least restore and maintain the previous status quo for the majority of those affected, or likely to be.? 
?
But that's likely as far as it will extend, in my opinion.? And 'pressure' to go beyond that is going to have to come from a source which is capable of being more "specific"? as to not only greater objectives achievable, but also the techniques by which they might be accomplished.? The question for us, I think, is to try to identify just "who" under this latter circumstance are those in office most ?likely to listen to?? 

2b. (Optional!) What has the particular correspondent done to try to achieve this aim, and how far was progress made? 
?
I think all of us who genuinely care about Social Credit and the potential it holds have done something.? 
?
Some, like yourself have tried to win elected office, or assist others to do so.??
?
Some have tried to keep the Social Credit ideas alive, to preserve and publicise the vast volume of material that is in immanent danger of otherwise being lost.?
?
Some have tried to analyze those ideas, to separate the 'wheat from the chaff', and there has been a great deal of 'chaf' to separate, and see if they do indeed hold the promise they've long seemed to, and how, practically, that promise might be achieved.?
?
Some of us have tried to explain the ideas to the public via letters-to-the-editor columns of the newspapers.? 
?
Some have tried to expound the realities and possibilities to our elected leaders and representatives, through bombarding the same with letters.? Hopefully they've been read and remembered , even if not immediately understood.
?
Others have tried to attach our ideas to other, more prominent movements.? Or better funded ones.? Often, unfortunately, ?losing many of them in the process.? 
?
I, myself, have engaged in an experiment on a regional ?"interactive" electronic News outlet.? To see if there was any interest in looking at our ideas as a solution to several problems obviously of great concern to many people here in BC.? 
?
I'm sorry to say that there isn't.? The "objectives" desired by other participants are too diffused.? Perhaps that un-named Alberta SC cabinet minister who reportedly commented that, "... Social Credit is too good for the people, " might not have been entirely wrong!
?
3. Since we can not know what is practicable until we have?"proper national?accounts", the first step must be establishmentof an independent National Credit Authority to prepare one. How can this be made totally independent and still forced to follow SC principles? 
?
Faith in your fellow man, John.? 

3a. In a constitutional monarchy, it could be separated to some extent from political control by coming under the Crown, like the judiciary. But these days Governors General are political appointees.? As are Attorneys General. Is there a problem there? Do nations without this freak constitution have an even worse problem?
?
Only they can know.? I believe the answer here is as?I said above.? 

Regards,
Joe



?
?
?





From: thomsonhiyu at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 22:41:17 -0800
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



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This is how I see it.? Lets start at the bottom.
?
"5. How will any nation repay its debt, internal and external?"? 
?
By enabling each cycle of production to be more fully financially 'self-liquidating' through the distribution to Consumers of the ND and CPD, the exponential growth of otherwise unrepayable debt is halted.? As the economy continues to grow naturally over time, with a rise in population, increased manufacturing efficiencies, etc., existing debts are reduced in proportion to it, ?and can be gradually paid off.
?
"4. Will the Credit Authority create money, or authorise some other body, treasury ior central bank, to do so?"
?
Whatever functions as a "National Credit Office" would be a purely 'statistical agency'.? It may well be that all, or most, of the relevant data is already collected by existing statistical agencies and the central banks in most countries.? 
?
It appears there is already considerable "debt-free" money injected into the economy through the so-called "open market" operations of the central bank??and trading in "repos" amongst the private banks.? 
?
One would think that there must already be some way of measuring the amount of this activity that needs to be carried on.? Perhaps not exactly, but certainly within a safe margin.
?
If this is indeed the case, there should be nothing to stop what is now injected this way at the "top" of the financial system to "trickle down", ?from being replaced with? similar sized injections as a ND and CPD at the "bottom" of it.???Through ongoing direct payments to Consumers, from whom it would "percolate up", increasing the rate of business profit with increased sales,? allowing existing loans to be more fully amortized, and needed and wanted production to be maintained.? 
?
This is one way in which Social Credit could be introduced gradually with a high degree of safety and certainty that we were indeed on the right course.? There are no doubt others, but the ones I've seen, while?often seemingly?attractive to the initiated, might prove to be far more difficult to "sell" to a sceptical public.
?
?
"4a. Will it or government decide how the money is to be spent?"
?
Neither.? "Consumers" will decide how this money is to be spent.? It is ''their'' money.? Such a 'statistical agency', which could be an adjunct to the central bank, ?(or independent from it), may well decide how much of the overall ?'money'?might best be directed towards the ND, and how much towards the CPD, ?based on ongoing observations of just what is happening in the economy.? 
?
We would expect appropriate "government" oversight from those we elect.? 
?
But just so long as those we elect as government have to get the money they're so anxious to spend "for" us, ?"from" us, we will have a chance of having a properly functioning democracy. The oft-repeated ususal anti-bank ?'monetary quotes' attributed to long-dead notables should be joined by one more:-? " Any "government" ?that's big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take everything you have."? 
?
Your other questions, John,? I cannot answer.? I have seen?several proposed 'strategies' offered by several Social Crediters for whom I have the utmost personal respect and admiration. In spite of that, I?would be less than honest if I?said I feel that ANY of them have a hope in Hell of ever working.? 
?
There has got to be an answer,?and I?firmly believe?it will only ?come in doing something we have not yet tried.? We are certainly NOT getting anywhere repeating things we have tried.
?
Regards,
Joe

----- Original Message ----- 
From: John G Rawson 
To: Socred elistas 
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:25 PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Greetings all. First, let's face it.? Douglas got frustrated later in life and became anti-semitic in some of his writings.? The fact that about 60% of Britons then would have agreed with him then has been overlooked.? It was fashionable. But we now have to live with it. It was an error on my part to mention it in passing.
Helge, what you state is right on the button.? Except that, while those who control money can also control the media, we will not get unbiassed media. When SC first went political in NZ we had to get a lawyer member to demand that our main and best newspaper accept a paid advertisement from us! I believe wartime regulations about subversive movements were cited. Our TV are the worst here, regularly running distorted and misleading material regarding monetary affairs. I presently have a formal complaint in with our Complaints Authority on one programme, and although I have given cast-iron proof that the two main points in the programme (one that banks lend money deposited with them) are wrong, it is most unlikely that it will succeed.
Joe, apologies for slightly excessive bluntness, but perhaps it stirred the debate along a bit. But you still appear confused between money issued as a debt that gets cancelled out of existence, leaving the debt,? and debt-free money issued so that when the same thing happens to it it leaves no debt behind. Yet you tacitly advocate?the latter?for a Dividend etc.
I believe our political approach has had its annual hammering, so can we please have a look at the alternative? I'll number some points so that others can quote any where they disagree without repeating the text. 1. Some ruling body has to legislate S C proposals into reality, and,
1a. steer the programme into the right direction. 
2. (Step by step, please.) How will this be achieved? 
2b. (Optional!) What has the particular correspondent done to try to achieve this aim, and how far was progress made? 
3. Since we can not know what is practicable until we have?"proper national?accounts", the first step must be establishmentof an independent National Credit Authority to prepare one. How can this be made totally independent and still forced to follow SC principles? 
3a. In a constitutional monarchy, it could be separated to some extent from political control by coming under the Crown, like the judiciary. But these days Governors General are political appointees.? As are Attorneys General. Is there a problem there? Do nations without this freak constitution have an even worse problem?
4. Will the Credit Authority create money, or authorise some other body, treasury ior central bank, to do so? 
4a. Will it or government decide how the money is to be spent?
5. How will any nation repay its debt, internal and external?? 
That's probably plenty for a while.? 
Regards.

John R.





From: thomsonhiyu at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:03:40 -0800
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



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I wouldn't disagree with any of that, Helge.? Any discussion of whether Social Credit is "anti-semitic" or not is apt to be rather fruitless, however.? Since that catch-phrase, like many others of a similar ilk, is never clearly defined.?
?
?It is as nebulous as others that have crept into the lexicon of catch-phrases in recent years.? Ones in Canada ?like "distinct-society", or "aboriginal title", or "sovereingty-association".? Or my favourite, since it's so often used in conjunction with the lumber industry here in BC, "value-added".? Try and get a concise definition on that one from any of those who are always beating their gums in advocacy of it, and all the wonders it supposedly will bring!? And if I were to give one definition, what?I believe is the only correct one, how many of those calling for "'value-added" would agree with me.
?
And so it is with "anti-semitism".? It, like those others, means different things to different people, and trying to defend Social Credit itself against such a charge is likely to be an exercise in futility unless those making the charge first define clearly what they take that term to mean.? 
?
Interestingly, those who would make such a charge always seem? reluctant to do just that.?? Perhaps they realize that just because one "philosophy" is incompatible with another, this certainly does not mean any hatred need be inherent in either.? Of course if the policy of one philosophy embodies "live, and let live", while the other posits, "you'll live just as we tell you to live, or we'll make it impossible for you to live at all", we might have a problem.
?
Regards,
Joe
?
----- Original Message ----- 

From: helge nome 
To: Socialcreditlist 
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 9:04 PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

It is unfortunate that a link appears to have been established, in the popular mind, between Social Credit and anti-semitism. That gives the bankers a tool to divide and conquer the movement, which is what seems to have happened here in Alberta during the days of the provincial Socred government. 
The power of the state should be a concern for all citizens, irrespective of the kind of government elected into office.
The best way of keeping a government honest is to have a healthy democracy where citizens take an active part in decision making by their government. And that requires an unbiased press corps and an impartial judicial system.
Money has a strange way of infiltrating all of these in a corrosive way, as evidenced by what is happening around us at this time.
Ideas which may seem to be "heretical" at first glance, in the field of economics, as in other areas of intellectual endeavour, may be deserving of a second look and further consideration before being discarded. (Remember Copernicus, Galileo and the Roman Catholic Church).
I agree with Per that we shall have to adapt to the present time and circumstances without backing away from the belief that the wealth of nations belong to the people who make up those nations, rather than the bankers who are merely the managers of that wealth, not the owners that they pretend to be.
Regards,
Helge Nome

> Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 22:56:02 +0100
> From: almgren_per at telia.com
> To: socialcredit at elistas.com
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
> 
> Joe Thomson skrev:
> > (John Rawson wrote:-) Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into 
> > circulation. And yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, 
> > of course, with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build 
> > autobahns etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a 
> > chance to link us further with anti-semitism.
> > 
> > (Joe replies:-) Linking "us further with anti-semitism" would be the 
> > least of my concerns over this method of approach, John. You may not 
> > be aware of it, but what you are proposing is the building of a 
> > totalitarian "slave state", not a one in which "individual" freedom 
> > will be allowed to develop and flourish. That the "slaves" will be 
> > well fed and quartered, while they're needed, is of little 
> > consequence. They're still "slaves", beholden for their continued 
> > sustenance to "servitude" to the "State" and the "system" it imposes 
> > on them.
> In my opinion this writing of "slave state" is not what John describes. 
> My impression now is that there is to much arguing of what Douglas have 
> expressed in a special situation in this list and I think that if Social 
> Credit should be of any use in the future, it must be allowed to adjust 
> to realities of to-day. If no new thinking is accepted, there is not 
> much use to discuss, it would just be a seminar of history, not a forum 
> for promoting useful ideas for practical use in the society.
> > 
> > This is the very antithesis of "Social Credit". It is "Fascism" 
> > without the more odious facets of that failed system fully revealing 
> > themselves. Which they soon would, if ever it were imposed. It is 
> > interesting that we have been duped into calling this 'anti-semitism' 
> > considering where such a policy likely originated. 
> This could not be called Fascism in the common meaning of the word.
> 
> Per Almgren
> > 
> > (John continues:-) And, of course, your argument that new money has to 
> > be repaid means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be 
> > in the same category, which is ridiculous.
> > 
> > (Joe replies:-) It is "repaid", John. It cancels that portion of 
> > /existing/ debt charges that could not otherwise be repaid. Without 
> > creating ANOTHER debt charge in the process. It is an "accounting 
> > adjustment" carried out in the economy as a whole to more fully allow 
> > the overall costs of production to be FINANCIALLY, as well as 
> > 'physically', self-liquidating with consumption. 
> > 
> > 
> > (John continues:-) An independent Credit Authority would assess how 
> > much new money needed to be put into circulation during the ensuing 
> > period without causing demand inflation. What that money was to be 
> > used for would be a political decision, even if it only considered a 
> > divarication between discount funds and those for a dividend. Or 
> > reducing taxation.
> > 
> > (Joe replies:-) I can generally agree with that provided it be 
> > realized this "new money" is applied to reducing prices to Consumers 
> > FIRST, not to funding other things which have additional "costs".
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Joe 
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* John G Rawson <mailto:johngrawson at hotmail.com>
> > *To:* Socred elistas <mailto:socialcredit at elistas.com>
> > *Sent:* Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:07 PM
> > *Subject:* RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
> >
> > For the first parts, you have valid points. I have never debated
> > whether or not some form of price control might be necessary. But
> > based on the rather inane information that had previously been
> > circulated, I could not see how this particular mechanism could be
> > practicable. Your new information at least clears part of that
> > objection.
> > Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And
> > yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course,
> > with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns
> > etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to
> > link us further with anti-semitism.
> > And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid
> > means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the
> > same category, which is ridiculous. An independent Credit
> > Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into
> > circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand
> > inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political
> > decision, even if it only considered a divarication between
> > discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.
> > The Ottawa agreement did nothing to increase trade or spending
> > power. All it did was to close shop against other nations. And
> > one of its minor sidelines was to force us to buy useless strains
> > of forest seed from you rather than the USA. The Douglas fir
> > appeared to have come from somewhere inside the arctic circle,
> > because the lengtrh of day effect made it bud burst far too early
> > in the spring so that it got frost-burned in our much milder
> > climate in the central Nth. Is. Then it hardened off about
> > Christmas and ceased growing through all the warm summer and
> > autumn period. I remember a compartment in Kaingaroa Forest
> > planted with both this strain and a normal one from Washington or
> > wherever. The boundary looked like a sudden cliff face as the
> > canopy dropped from one to the other.The only point I was making
> > over food subsidies was that we had a humanitarian government that
> > helped both public health and a major industry by the use of
> > debt-free credit. Rooseveldt's New Deal did something the same
> > thing on borrowed money. War expenditure finallly brought us right
> > out, and as a point of interest NZ (with strict import controls)
> > came out of the war with zero overseas debt. (And a bureaucracy
> > subsidised less healthy white floured bread, not wholemeal!)
> > But the government didn't "have to" subsidise food. People were
> > starving and it used one method to help them. Coming from a
> > (broke, ex-serviceman's) farm, I never went hungry. But I knew men
> > my age whose developmenmt was stunted for that reason.
> > It seems we may have to revisit times like that before enough
> > people will again consider monetary reform. in any shape, SC or other.
> >
> > John R.
> >
> 
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From maryrose333 at att.net  Mon Jan 12 09:00:33 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:00:33 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: The Lynch pin? the Baltic Dry Index
Message-ID: <003001c974ce$ea350cc0$be9f2640$@net>

Thanks, Lawrence for sending this information to us. 

Very important and timely.  

I have some information indicating that this could be linked to change-over
to Amero in U.S., Canada and Mexico, but until it happens we will never know
for sure.  

Mary Rose [mailto:dustysummerrose at gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 7:39 AM
To: maryrose333 at att.net
Subject: Fwd: The Lynch pin? the Baltic Dry Index

 

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: lawrence kiely <topdownyoga at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 12:25 PM
Subject: The Lynch pin? the Baltic Dry Index
To: dustysummerrose at gmail.com



 

This information is non-existent in the mainstream media and almost
completely non-existent in the alternative press. Someone at the internet
cafe pointed my attention to consciousmedianetwork and  then I did some
further investigating. This could be the lynch pin that collapses the whole
house of cards we call global civilization. If the bankers take away the
credit lines, routine processes of distribution worldwide come to a
standstill.

Please look into this and share with me your feedback.

http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/video/010709.htm 



http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/baltic-dry-index-falls-another-107-do
wn.html

 

http://www.breakthematrix.com/Trade-Agreements/Baltic-Dry-Index-Falls-93-Are
-We-Heading-into-a-Global-Recession-or-Possibly-a-Worldwide-Depression

 

http://www.utvi.com/industry-news/other-industry-news/12788/baltic-dry-index
-falls-below-1000.html

 

http://seekingalpha.com/article/113415-baltic-dry-index-signaling-a-market-b
ottom

 




-- 
>From the desk of 
    mary rose
    dustysummerrose at gmail.com 

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From maryrose333 at att.net  Mon Jan 12 09:02:49 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:02:49 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: The Israeli Invasion and Gaza's Offshore Gas Fields
Message-ID: <003501c974cf$3b1f5050$b15df0f0$@net>

Another very, very informative and important message.

Thanks to Stephanie for this one. 

Sooner or later the truth does out - more blood for oil.     

 

From: Mary Rose [mailto:dustysummerrose at gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 7:34 AM
To: maryrose333 at att.net
Subject: Fwd: The Israeli Invasion and Gaza's Offshore Gas Fields

 

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Stephanie Sutton <ssutton23 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:27 AM
Subject: The Israeli Invasion and Gaza's Offshore Gas Fields
To: Mary Rose <dustysummerrose at gmail.com>



 

I thought this was note worthy  . . . . 

From: "Mark Graffis" <mgraffis at gmail.com>

Date: January 11, 2009 9:03:38 PM GMT-05:00

To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:;>

Subject: The Israeli Invasion and Gaza's Offshore Gas Fields

 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va
<http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11680> &aid=11680

 


War and Natural Gas: The Israeli Invasion and Gaza's Offshore Gas Fields

 

by Michel Chossudovsky


Error! Filename not specified.


Global <http://www.globalresearch.ca/>  Research, January 8, 2009


 


 

	


The military invasion of the Gaza Strip by Israeli Forces bears a direct
relation to the control and ownership of strategic offshore gas reserves. 

This is a war of conquest. Discovered in 2000, there are extensive gas
reserves off the Gaza coastline. 

 
<http://www.bg-group.com/OurBusiness/WhereWeOperate/Pages/pgIsraelandAreasof
PalestinianAuthority.aspx> British Gas (BG Group) and its partner, the
Athens based  <http://www.ccc.gr/> Consolidated Contractors International
Company(CCC) owned by Lebanon's Sabbagh and Koury families, were granted oil
and gas exploration rights in a 25 year agreement signed in November 1999
with the Palestinian Authority. 

The rights to the offshore gas field are respectively British Gas (60
percent); Consolidated Contractors (CCC) (30 percent); and the Investment
Fund of the Palestinian Authority (10 percent). (Haaretz, October 21,
2007). 

The PA-BG-CCC agreement includes field development and the construction of a
gas pipeline.(Middle East Economic Digest, Jan 5, 2001). 

The BG licence covers the entire Gazan offshore marine area, which is
contiguous to several Israeli offshore gas facilities. (See Map below). It
should be noted that 60 percent of the gas reserves along the Gaza-Israel
coastline belong to Palestine.  

The BG Group drilled two wells in 2000: Gaza Marine-1 and Gaza Marine-2.
Reserves are estimated by British Gas to be of the order of 1.4 trillion
cubic feet, valued at approximately 4 billion dollars. These are the figures
made public by British Gas. The size of Palestine's gas reserves could be
much larger. 

 




-- 
>From the desk of 
    mary rose
    dustysummerrose at gmail.com 

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From maryrose333 at att.net  Mon Jan 12 09:29:11 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:29:11 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: On TRANSITION UNITED STATES: [TTUS] TRANSITION ONTARIO --
	Welcome!
Message-ID: <004001c974d2$ea152be0$be3f83a0$@net>

The transition movement is going world-wide -- here it is moving into Canada. 
This is the "Blessed Unrest" movement as told by Paul Hawken in his book by 
the same name in which he calls it "the largest movement the world has ever seen".
This is a spontaneous "people-powered" integral creative movement with no leaders. SHIFT is happening and will continue to happen as people demand to be free.  Food sovereignty is the cornerstone of freedom. 

Get on board now!!!          

-----Original Message-----
From: TRANSITION UNITED STATES [mailto:mail at transitionus.ning.com] 
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 8:10 PM
To: maryrose333 at att.net
Subject: On TRANSITION UNITED STATES: [TTUS] TRANSITION ONTARIO -- Welcome!

A message to all members of TRANSITION UNITED STATES

G?Day and G?2009!

When asked if he was ready to announce the first Transition social network in Canada, Chris Mills said... ?Absolutely announce it! I'll no doubt want to do some tweaking on it as time goes on... heck that's my stock in trade... but for the time being, let's turn 'er loose! 

Welcome TRANSITION ONTARIO.  Can the other provinces be far behind... 

Drop in and welcome Chris and Yoshi!

Les Squires

Visit TRANSITION UNITED STATES at: http://transitionus.ning.com

--
To control which emails you receive on TRANSITION UNITED STATES, go to:
http://transitionus.ning.com/profiles/profile/emailSettings



From maryrose333 at att.net  Mon Jan 12 17:02:17 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:02:17 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] Bill McKibben Interview
Message-ID: <001d01c97512$35806d80$a0814880$@net>



-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 10:31 AM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] Bill McKibben Interview


(To change your settings or unsubscribe please go to
http://lists.riseup.net/www/info/globalnetnews-summary)

"McKibben: I think it will look different depending on where you are. The
economy will be much more localized. Many commodities, food, energy,
entertainment will be much more likely to come from your neighbors or from
people in your region than at present. I don't think food will be
traveling 2,000 miles. I think it will be traveling 20 miles."


Bill McKibben Interview
By Diane Silver, January 2009 Issue
http://www.progressive.org/node/124963

A little more than two years ago, bestselling author Bill McKibben's life
was filled with canoe trips, mountaineering, writing, and teaching. The
author of a dozen books and a scholar in residence at Vermont's
Middlebury College, McKibben lived at a relatively slow pace with his wife,
writer Sue Halpern, and daughter, Sophie.

But the author who made his reputation in 1989 with the first general
audience book on global warming, The End of Nature, would soon organize his
first protest. That would lead to the creation of one activist organization
and then another. His goal? End the global lethargy on climate change.

Today, McKibben works with a handful of recent college graduates in a group
called 350.org.

These days, McKibben is in constant motion. The only way we could talk was
to connect via cell phone one Sunday as McKibben drove from one speech to
another in New Hampshire. He had just returned from a trip to China, Italy,
Trinidad, Sweden, and Canada to promote 350.org. "Right now my carbon
footprint is much higher than it should be," he says.

Q: You recently wrote that global warming is the biggest problem humans
have ever faced. Why do you believe this?

Bill McKibben: Think about it. All the other things that we've done as a
species have had a limited scope. We're now talking about melting the ice
caps, raising the level of the seas dramatically, changing the distribution
of every other species on Earth, perhaps wiping out one-third or half of
them. The changes at work now are geologic in scale. The level of change
required to deal with it is enormous, too. It will require change in every
country. It will require a degree of global cooperation that we haven't
seen before.

Q: How did we get into this mess?

McKibben: Fossil fuel is very seductive stuff. [John Maynard] Keynes once
said that, as far as he could tell, the average standard of living from the
beginning of human history to the middle of the eighteenth century had
perhaps doubled. Not much had changed, and then we found coal and gas and
oil and everything changed. Now we're reaping the result of that, both
ecologically and socially.

In the United States, cheap fossil fuel has eroded communities. We're the
first people with no real practical need for each other. Everything comes
from a great distance through anonymous and invisible transactions. We've
taken that to be a virtue, but it's as much a curse. Americans are not
very satisfied with their lives, and the loss of community is part of that.

Q: You wrote about those problems in your book Deep Economy.

McKibben: That was an essay about my hope for the emergence of a more
localized economy. Now, it's happened, or begun to happen, with amazing
speed. We're flying less and driving less. The only houses holding most
of their value during this economic downturn are in the city or along the
transit lines or in the walkable suburbs. All of a sudden, the fifty-year
American dream of building a bigger house away from people is turning into
a nightmare. SUVs have gone from being objects of desire to expensive
planters.

Q: Has the Bush Administration played a role in making global warming
worse?

McKibben: The Bush Administration was precisely the wrong thing at the
wrong time. This was a crucial eight years we lost. We did nothing about
our own carbon emissions. As important, we sat idly on the sidelines as
emissions in China and India began to take off. I imagine that history will
clearly hold Bush responsible for the folly in Iraq. My guess is that doing
nothing on global warming at the moment that it was accelerating will also
be seen as an abdication of responsibility.

Q: You've spent much of your career as a writer, but in the last two
years you've stepped into the role of a political organizer. What
prompted you to make the change?

McKibben: It's really not my favorite thing. I'm happy to do some of
it. I still write. I look forward to the day when that's all I do. But
about two years ago, I was obsessed with the idea that nothing was getting
done. Everyone had seen Al Gore's movie. Everyone had seen what happened
in Hurricane Katrina, and nothing was going on in Washington. I organized a
march on global warming in Vermont. That march was successful in converting
our Congressional delegation into zealots on global warming, but it was
depressing to read in that newspaper that the 1,000 people we gathered for
the march made it one of the largest demonstrations on global warming in
this country. That spurred us to try the Step It Up campaign we did last
year. We organized 1,400 demonstrations in all fifty states. Then we
created 350.org, a global version of the same idea.

Q: How did you come up with the name, 350.org?

McKibben: Scientists are now telling us that 350 parts per million [of
carbon] in the atmosphere is the upper limit. We're at 387 parts per
million now, and we're up in that zone where the risk of going past
irrevocable tipping points is elevated. It's no different than going to a
doctor and learning your cholesterol is too high, and you're at risk for
a heart attack. You have to work to lower your cholesterol and hope to get
there before the heart attack comes.

Q: When I interview climate scientists, they often tell me to turn off my
recorder and then confess that they have little hope that we will find the
political will to stop global warming. Do you agree?

McKibben: They're absolutely right. That's why we're trying to build
the political will. There's no shortcut around it.

Without a movement pressing for change, there's little hope. We've got
to work the political system to make this happen fast. The physics and
chemistry are daunting. The resources on the other side are very large.

Q: Do people elsewhere respond differently than Americans do when you talk
about this?

McKibben: Where people aren't as deeply reliant on fossil fuel as in the
United States, it's far easier for them to imagine change on this scale.
When you go to Europe, they're much more ready. They use half the amount
of energy per capita that we use. They can imagine using less than that.
They see the benefits. They're ready to go.

When you go to China and the developing world, people understand more
clearly the dangers that are coming at them because they're living closer
to the margin. They don't have any of the false sense of invulnerability
that Americans have.

People from developing countries also feel that it's their right, if
you're talking in terms of justice, to use fossil fuels like we did for a
hundred years to get rich. It's hard for them to give up that vision.

But there are people in China who know that it's possible to leapfrog to
good technology. I was just at one of the largest solar panel factories in
the world in China, and it is an exciting place to be.

Q: It sounds like you came back from your trip more optimistic.

McKibben: It's hard to be optimistic. I spent two weeks hardly able to
see the sun [in China] because of the pollution in the air. For me, it's
not an issue anymore of being optimistic or pessimistic. I work as hard as
I can to organize, and then we'll see. It's realistic to hope for
dramatic change in China, but it's not going to happen without dramatic
change here. We're going to have to lead the way. That's only fair
because we led the way down the path of burning fossil fuels.

Q: What does life in a post-fossil fuel world look like?

McKibben: I think it will look different depending on where you are. The
economy will be much more localized. Many commodities, food, energy,
entertainment will be much more likely to come from your neighbors or from
people in your region than at present. I don't think food will be
traveling 2,000 miles. I think it will be traveling 20 miles. In a
post-fossil fuel economy, energy will be coming from solar panels on your
neighbor's roof and your roof.

Not only will that provide good, clean power, but it will do that without
your having to send your daughter or son off to the Persian Gulf to defend
a 10,000-mile-long straw through which we suck hydrocarbons. We won't
have to blow the tops off any more mountains to mine coal. The most
important parts of our standard of living, good food and good friends, will
be strengthened by a more energy efficient economy. I look forward to its
advent.

Q: What is the one, most important thing each of us can do to stop global
warming?

McKibben: Get involved politically. Often when I'm on TV, they'll ask
what are the three most important things for people to do. I know they want
me to say that people should change their light bulbs. I say the number one
thing is to organize politically; number two, do some political organizing;
number three, get together with your neighbors and organize; and then if
you have energy left over from all of that, change the light bulb.

Diane Silver is a nationally syndicated columnist who writes about climate
change and LGBT issues. She blogs at www.hopeandpolitics.blogspot.com.




From maryrose333 at att.net  Mon Jan 12 17:19:06 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:19:06 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: Kilowatt Cards: electricity gift cards
Message-ID: <002401c97514$8fe8e390$afbaaab0$@net>

 

 

For your consideration.  

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Robert Hahl <121Rhahl at kilowattcards.com>
Date: Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 4:33 AM
Subject: Kilowatt Cards: electricity gift cards
To: dustysummerrose at gmail.com


Mary Rose,

A gift card system that works for saving and trading kilowatt-hours of
electricity (www.kilowattcards.com <http://www.kilowattcards.com/> ) is
described below. It is run by a non-profit corporation and provides
fixed-value paper for those who want it. The value is fixed because a given
amount of electrical energy is a physical constant. 

Kilowatt Cards are backed by tangible assets, not promises. They are issued
as barter for assets (e.g. firewood, food stores, rental properties), which
are held, and later sold to pay for the electricity as needed. They are
redemable for electricity worldwide, resulting in a store-of-value
(property) and medium-of-exchange (paper) that avoids inflation. 

The system is still experimental. It is meant to show how paper can
represent the value of goods and labor in a way that is not fictitious and
which cannot be destroyed by inflation, or even war, since Kilowatt Cards
can retain some barter value even in places without electricity. 

Please let me know what you think. 


Robert W. Hahl, J.D., Ph.D. 
Chairman 
Kilowatt-Hour Card Corp. 
121 S. Lee St. 
Falls Church, VA 22046 
US +1 7039817447 Call (mobile) 
121rhahl at kilowattcards.com


Economists and Social Scientists:

Kilowatt Cards are gift cards that can be redeemed to pay for 10
kilowatt-hours of electricity in any residential utility account, almost
anywhere in the world. Electric companies don't accept them - we do - at
<http://www.kilowattcards.com/> www.kilowattcards.com and then send payments
directly to the power companies at the rate they normally charge home
customers for the same amount of electricity, including taxes and fees.
These gift cards are supported by the non-profit Kilowatt-Hour Card
Corporation (KHCC).

Because energy is needed to produce or to use all goods and services today
"the ability to consume electricity" is a meaningful definition of wealth.
While some people want gold and silver, everybody wants light, heat or
transportation. Kilowatt Cards show that paper notes can be redeemed for
something useful. But we do not produce or deliver the electricity; we only
pay for it with national currencies, supported by investments. 

One purpose of Kilowatt Cards is to promote stable commerce and reduce the
boom-bust financial cycle, by letting people save and lend their wealth in a
form which cannot be diminished by currency inflation. If electricity cards
stay redeemable at face value they cannot loose barter value as energy. 

Traditional currencies have the attributes of being:  (i) portable, (ii)
difficult to counterfeit, (iii) limited in supply, (iv) non-perishable, and
(v) easy to recognize. While electricity itself meets none of these
criteria, electrical capacity meets criteria (ii) to (v), while paper cards
representing payments for electricity supply attribute (i).

Kilowatt Cards are gift cards not currency, but since they will pay for
anyone's electricity, they are useful to barter for other things - and as a
store of value - worth a fixed amount of energy, regardless of electricity
prices. They have fixed value because 10 kilowatt-hours is a physical
constant - a standard amount of work (in the scientific sense) that one can
evaluate intuitively: 10 kWh = 10,000 Watt-hours, enough energy to run a 100
Watt light bulb for 100 hours (exactly), and roughly enough to drive a
Toyota Prius 25 miles. The typical price for 10 kilowatt-hours is about US
$1 - $3.

A Hedge against Inflation

The concepts of "price" and "value" seem equivalent, but that is not always
true. For instance the price of food may be going up because the purchasing
power of money is dropping, not because the value of food is rising. This
shows why inflation is so dangerous: rising prices matter little to people
with extra money, but impoverish those without it. If electricity gift cards
stay redeemable at face value, then one cannot loose the savings to
inflation (but one can, for example, save a stable asset that is less
expensive than land).

The world's money supply grows at least 15% annually. That new cash buys
political influence and assets every year, at essentially no cost. And it
causes inflation. One reason labor is politically weak is the economic
disadvantage that comes from earning money though labor alone compared to
creating it by fiat.

Economist Joseph Stiglitz has spoken about past failures of the gold
standard and the coming failure of the "dollar standard," predicting that
all national currencies will eventually fail due to inflation, and be
replaced by private currencies from competing companies, backed by gold and
their reputations.

However, electricity offers a unique alternative. It is a standard and pure
product (120V, 60 Hz; U.S.) that is widely used by individuals. But it need
not be owned, produced or delivered by the gift card system itself, as we
demonstrate. 

While the price of electricity is not stable, its value as a source of
light, heat and motion is very stable to people. Unlike gold, electricity
does "work." Its value is objective because kilowatt-hours can be expressed
in terms of light, heat, motion or fuel, by the conservation of energy
principle (e.g., 10 kWh = 34120 BTU). For examples: reading at night, or
traveling by train, use about the same amount of electricity every time. So
no matter what its price in money, a fixed amount of electricity has about
the same value to individuals. Assets should have value to other people. 

If kilowatt-hour notes were registered for sale as securities they might be
exhanged for national currencies. However, at present we only barter them
for tangible items that tend to hold value, such as firewood and food
grains. These assets are held until needed to pay for electricity. We
safeguard the value of Kilowatt Cards by linking the issuance of new ones to
the acquisition of firewood and food stores because these are visible assets
that embody labor - and so something more than a fiat currency is involved
in their creation. 

During storage a portion of the assets can be sold (at retail prices) and
replaced (at wholesale prices) generating income to support the system
itself, while preserving the asset base at a steady state. Likewise, land
can be aquired and rented without deminishing its value. Thus Kilowatt Cards
represent the underlying assets but in liquid form.

Kilowatt Cards may also be viewed as a type of insurance product. Instead of
pooling money to guard against physical losses, we can pool tangible goods
to guard against currency losses. This approach to hedging may outperform
trading between currencies because they all devalue together (more or less)
and currency traders often loose. But as with any risk pool, it is important
not to have too many claims at once. Circulating Kilowatt Cards are being
redeemed at the rate of about 10% of the total per year. We expect this rate
to rise to at least 20%, assuming the proportion of income used to buy
energy rises to 20% some day.

Paper notes backed by gold fix the total number of notes in circulation
(because the amount of gold in a system is finite) but not their worth,
since the barter value of gold is subjective and variable. In contrast, the
electricity standard fixes the worth of each note (as a physical constant)
but not the total number in circulation, since competing systems may
coexist, each offering to pay for the same electricity with its own assets.

Counterfeit Cards Easily Foiled

Kilowatt Cards are printed on plain paper but cannot be effectively copied
because value resides in both the six-digit serial number and the coupon
together. One can prove that a card is real (and active) by authenticating
it at  <http://www.kilowattcards.com/> www.kilowattcards.com in a process
that alters the serial number. If it is active, two new digits will be
returned that should be written on the card by hand, forming the end of a
new six-digit serial number (as the first two digits are cancelled). Thus,
nobody holding a Kilowatt Card can use copies of it, since every copy will
have a cancelled serial number after any one of them has been authenticated.
In this way plain paper can be traded widely, yet proven unique by anyone
(with access to the internet) before accepting it. No need for special
printing methods - just a secure web server.

The six-digit serial numbers are printed on blank Kilowatt Cards (i.e.,
un-numbered card images) using a desktop printer. Because the serial numbers
are generated from our database remotely, the un-numbered cards may be
shipped safely and then activated with a printer. They can also be wired
electronically by bringing them to an agent who deactivates them while
authorising an equal number of replacement cards be issued at the
destination, for pick up.

Portable Wealth in an Unstable World

While any electric company might issue its own kilowatt-hour notes, the
chances for a system failure due to war and fuel shortages are high. In
contrast, delocalized systems like Kilowatt Cards transform such physical
risks into financial risks, which can be analyzed. And because delocalized
redemptions are independent of any given electric company, Kilowatt Cards
work as a stateless medium-of-exchange.

Rising and falling oil prices have little effect on the barter value of
Kilowatt Cards. For instance, look at your own electricity bills. The cost
per kilowatt-hour (including taxes and fees) did not rise as oil went to
$150/bbl, and did not fall as it dropped below $50/bbl. But one's personal
cost for electricity is not how to value tradeable kilowatt-hours anyway. 

W10 Kilowatt Cards are probably worth about $3.00 in cash because that is
just below the relatively high price ($3.50/10 kWh) charged by power
companies for electricity in many populated areas (e.g., Maine, Alaska,
Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic) where Kilowatt Cards can be
redeemed. The fact that electricity costs less elsewhere is relevant, but
not very. To see why, imagine having a used Toyota for sale in Detroit,
where Japanese cars are unpopular. If the national price for the car was
$10,000, but your top offer in Detroit was $5,000, it would not mean that
the car was worth only $5,000. Instead it would be worth $10,000 minus your
personal cost to move and sell it elsewhere, perhaps $9,500.

Kilowatt Cards presently pays up to $3.50 for W10 redemptions, because about
90% of those who buy electricity pay $3.50/10 kWh or less. By reference to
the top redemption price, anyone may discount the cash value of
kilowatt-hours considering the local price of electricity and their own
ability to trade them elsewhere. And Kilowatt Cards probably have some value
even in places without electricity, if they might someday be traded to a
person on the grid.

If the price of electricity were to climb very high then electricity gift
cards would become more precious, but the effects that that might have on
the system are difficult to predict. For instance, would national currencies
hold their values as usual (i.e., 2 - 15% annual inflation) or go into
hyperinflation? Would electricity grids serve the developed world 24 x 7, or
would we rely more on private generators to cope with unreliable power
supplies? If so the premise of Kilowatt Cards might become unrealistic, and
the wealthy wouldn't be living in total comfort any longer, but that's life.


Compare Prices in Energy Units

Two things to be gained by trading kilowatt-hours are: 1) a store of fixed
value, and 2) a way to compare values without reference to any fiat
currency. Three questions must be answered for a typical pricing
calculation: a) What is the item worth? b) What is the money itself worth?
and c) What is the buyer worth? (since a wealthy buyer may carelessly
overpay)

Using kilowatt-hours as the medium-of-exchange gives a clear answer to
question b). 

For instance, the thermal energy in one gallon of gasoline is 36.6 kWh (U.S,
no ethanol). If burned to make heat the amount of energy actually released
is about 30 kWh (at 80% efficiency). The cost of electricity in Virginia is
11 cents per kWh, while in New York it is about 18 cents/kWh. So if the
price of electricity is taken as the true cost of heat in those places, then
gasoline should sell for $3.30 to $5.40 per gallon for its heat content
alone. And the energy used to produce and distribute it (plus a profit)
should be added. Yet gas is sold for less than $3.00/gal in the United
States, so it is apparently being dumped. While some people say that policy
promotes high productivity, it also promotes waste. Pricing in
kilowatt-hours may help us become more productive with energy by expressing
its true value.

Another example: had you 500 kilowatt-hours in hand you could call it about
$100 worth of electricity (in NY or CA) or, more meaningfully "about 3 weeks
of electricity" (anywhere). Likewise a 4' x 4' x 4' stack of firewood (64
cubic feet) is worth about $100, but is better described as "1/2 cord of
wood; about 2 weeks of heat in winter." 

One cord of maple firewood (128 cubic feet) contains 750 kWh of energy and
red oak has 720 kWh (white pine has only 460 kWh). The Kilowatt Cards system
will barter 800 kWh for cords of maple and oak - about equal to the energy
content. While the tree itself is generally free, labor and fuel are needed
to make it into firewood: about 6 hours to cut with a chainsaw, split into
sticks, load on a truck, and stack upon delivery - plus 3 gallons of gas for
the saw, oil for the gas, oil for the chain, and diesel for the truck. So
one days' labor and supplies (plus a big tree) yields about one month of
electricity for a typical home anytime, even years later, no matter what the
inflation rate. 

A lawyer billing $300 per hour earns 15,000 hours of light per hour (at a
typical rate of 20 cents/kWh and a 100 Watt bulb). Is that necessary to
motivate good work? Not really but it happens - because electricity prices
are low - and because the value of money is so abstract.  The U.S. minimum
wage is $6.55/hour, paying about 325 hours of light per hour (from a single
100 Watt bulb at $0.20/kWh). Some might say even that rate of pay is too
high, but the point is that by expressing wages in terms of energy we might
reestablish a link between compensation and the value in different types of
work - a link that was lost somehow under Stigliz's dollar standard.

Inflation Protection linked to Food, Energy Production and Rents

Some may ask: How can Kilowatt Cards protect itself from inflation? Answer:
The way others do, by saving goods and land, not cash. If money itself were
to back the issuance of new Kilowatt Cards, it would have to be converted
into wood, food stores, or land. Such assets would store value and could be
liquidated as needed to pay for electricity anywhere in the world. Since
prices for firewood and food tend to rise with energy prices, such commodity
stores may even survive hyperinflation. And wood might even be burned to
produce electricity directly to generate income for electricity payments
elsewhere.

An alternative to buying food grains would be to pay farmers to plant, and
then collect the grains at harvest, offering farmers an alternative to bank
financing. Funding infrastructure projects, such as wind turbines and water
treatment plants, might also be possible if the outputs were sold to fund
redemptions.

Because high inflation compels all of us to invest for economic "growth" we
get over-consumption as well, since businesses must convince more people to
consume more products in order to grow. Electricity gift cards offer a
store-of-value that may be saved without regard for growth, and so enhance
economic stability.

This system is still experimental. Eventually the bulk of its assets will
probably be rental properties. Owners (whether individuals or banks) could
trade houses for newly issued kilowatt-hours to become rental properties,
run by independent managers paying fees that build reserves for electricity
payments. The balance of the rents would go to pay the managers and to
maintaining the housing. So, the users of capital (renters, managers) would
have an interest in caring for the properties but no equity; while the
owners of the capital (kW Card holders) would have an interest in the assets
generally but not in the housing business, or any particular property. If
redemptions exceeded the reserves some assets would hve to be sold, as
rental properties.

Such owners could not expect growth from but merely preservation of their
capital ("preservation" is not so easy to find lately) albiet in liquid
form, i.e., negotiable kilowatt-hour notes. For example, this is a route by
which a philanthropy could put their money to work (affordable housing)
while retaining their assets.

Variable Electricity Prices and Financial Stability

Because electricity is very costly in some places (e.g. Barrow, Alaska;
$11.70/10 kWh; ten times the U.S. average) one can theoretically buy
circulating Kilowatt Cards in a low-cost area and sell them for more money
in a high-cost area. Such arbitrage does work, but we limit the top
redemption price to a world-average price for electricity, weighted by
population. That way places with very high electricity rates, but small
populations like rural Alaska, cannot threaten the financial stability of
the system. Presently the top redemption rate is $3.50/W10, so a great
majority of people in the world can redeem Kilowatt Cards at face value
where they live. 

Having a top redemption price also helps one to judge the local supply and
demand for Kilowatt Cards. If the trading price is higher than the local
cost of electricity, or near $3.50/W10, then there must be significant
demand for the cards.

FAQs

Q: Does our ability to pay electric companies depend on selling new Kilowatt
Cards? A: No. Payments are funded by selling assets. New Kilowatt Cards are
issued as barter for tangible goods.

Q: If redemption funding did depend on selling new Kilowatt Cards, would
that be a new kind of pyramid or Ponzi scheme? 
A: Possibly yes, which is why we don't do that. Pyramid schemes promise
returns to all investors. Mr. Ponzi said "Give me your money now, and I will
return (a lot) more money in the future." But Kilowatt Cards pay no
interest,and promise no returns at all unless redeemed, then pay only for
the face amount of electricity, and pay only someone else - a power company.
They are gift cards, but for something everyone needs. And if the card
redemption rate remains a fraction of the total in circulation, then our
obligations can be met by maintaining high reserves, which we do.  

Q. Can one invest in the company behind Kilowatt Cards? A. No, the KHCC is a
not-for-profit enterprise. It is not a growth business but a store-of-value
and demonstrates that fixed-value paper can exist, in case anybody wants it.

Q: Are there any larger denominations than W10 Kilowatt Cards? A: Yes, there
are W100 (i.e., 100 kWh) and W1000 (i.e., 1,000 kWh) which work with 7-digit
and 8-digit serial numbers, respectively.

Q: If the KHCC can do this, anyone can. What would happen if other
kilowatt-hour systems competed? A: That should be a good thing. Competing
electricity cards might be used to trade for circulating Kilowatt Cards (if
those products were trustworthy) and redeemed. Any failures could become
public knowledge, hurting our reputation. As more people began paying
utility bills with these cards any redemption failures in any system should
become news, so that competing systems ought to keep each other honest, like
competing private bank notes did before 1862 in the U.S.

Q: Instead of acquiring wood, land and food stores, couldn't Kilowatt Cards
pay for wind and solar electricity projects only, thus supporting a
zero-carbon energy cycle?  A: Yes in principle, but not in reality, for the
same reasons that wind and solar plants are so rare today. Depending on
location, a 100 foot-tall wind turbine might cost $3 million to $5 million,
because land in a windy place, near a power grid, with road acess must be
obtained, and the zoning changed, while a yearlong test of winds to predict
power output done. If tax credits are available they must be sold to someone
who can use them; bank loans and municipal bonds must be floated, insurance
bought for the towers, insurance bought for the bonds, maintenance for the
equipment, etc., etc., etc. Financing all this activity is the essence of
every project. They are moslty about making money, not electricity. A town
we know of in Maine wanted three wind turbines but was cautioned to buy only
two because if something went wrong, three could result in bankruptcy.

If one is serious about reducing fossil fuel use then understand that wood
can help do so. It is not "zero-carbon" but it is net zero-carbon, and has
less potential to be captured by special interests. (See: the cap-and-trade
carbon nonsense.)

Q: Kilowatt-hours may become more expensive relative to labor-produced goods
(if electricity prices rise). Would they have the same problem of
deflationary pricing that gold notes have? A: Probably. But since electric
grids cannot be "cornered" or transferred away from a community the way gold
can, electrical capacity should remain where it is built (in a peaceful
society). Yet deflation of some labor-produced goods is inevitable as energy
prices raise because so much of modern life is enabled by cheap and abundant
energy. Once that is gone, many things may become uneconomical, and relative
deflations will occur no matter how prices are expressed - the asset
collapse of 2008 being an example.

Q: Can Kilowatt Cards be used as collateral for conventional loans of money
at interest? A: Yes.  

Q: Can Kilowatt Cards themselves be loaned at interest? A: Yes, and if the
interest were paid in kilowatt-hours then the real rate of return would
always be positive, no matter how high the monetary inflation rate, a great
improvement over the current policy of lending money at negative real
interest rates. 

Q: Are Kilowatt Cards compatible with Islamic finance? A: Yes. One may lend
them at 0% interest to anyone who could trade them for money (or something
productive) and eventually repay the debt with Kilowatt Cards, perhaps
bought for more money than was originally received for the kilowatt-hours.
Though Islam forbids payment of debt interest, it might allow extra payment
for currency inflation if the real debt were defined as energy. The lender
would get nominal interest in money, if not real interest in kilowatt-hours.

Get Some:

We started in July 2007 by giving away 1,200 Kilowat Cards (12,000 kWh) at a
Rainbow Gathering in Arkansas. You may obtain a few cards as a free sample
just by asking, in reply to this e-mail. Or you may obtain more through
barter. Our goals are to establish a trusted store-of-value; to redeem the
cards on site rather than only on the web, and to eventually broker
exchanges of circulating kilowatt-hours (from all sources) for local
currencies and for each other, i.e., a secondary market, as laws permit. 

Today anyone may barter Kilowatt Cards with anyone else (craigslist.com
<http://craigslist.com/>  has worked) or give them away, gamble them, pay
for electricity, lend them at interest, invest them in a private business,
borrow against them as collateral or just save them for retirement. 

Yes, if the system failed Kilowatt Cards would be worthless - But cash is
forever!






















































-- 
>From the desk of 
    mary rose
    dustysummerrose at gmail.com 

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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan 13 02:26:17 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:26:17 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [monetaryReform] Exxon favors carbon tax over cap and
	trade for CO2 curbs
In-Reply-To: <f2a3ba50901121319v4d31dcai36d6085382455265@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <546675.67236.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?? Dear All,
?
?????????????? This story about Tillerson appeared in the Independent last Saturday if I recall correctly.
?
??????? R.Searle

--- On Mon, 12/1/09, Jim Whitescarver <jimscarver at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Jim Whitescarver <jimscarver at gmail.com>
Subject: [monetaryReform] Exxon favors carbon tax over cap and trade for CO2 curbs
To: "monetary reform" <monetaryReform at yahoogroups.com>, FixGov at yahoogroups.com, "Discussion Forum for Global Justice" <discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>, quantumrelativity at yahoogroups.com, "Franklin Whitescarver" <grampscarver at gmail.com>, "James Whitescarver" <blixyz at gmail.com>, "Gregory Whitescarver" <gwhitescarver at yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, 12 January, 2009, 9:19 PM






http://www.marketwa tch.com/news/ story/exxon- favors-carbon- tax-over/ story.aspx
CEO Rex Tillerson said Thursday...

"A carbon tax strikes us as a more direct, transparent and effective
approach," said Tillerson. "It is easier to apply globally, avoids the
establishment of new markets for trading emissions and new regulators
to monitor them, can be implemented through the existing tax
infrastructure and made revenue neutral to mitigate the impact on the
economy."

triangletrader 4 days ago +2 Votes (2 Up / 0 Dn)
"That's right. No brokerage house crooks trading carbon. Government
pockets all the money and gives it back to the citizen ,thus making it
revenue neutral.
The carbon tax is an effective way to go."

It makes sense. Rex Tillerson is right. Why create another humongous
bureaucracy to be abused at tax payer expense. Why not learn from the
money masters and control industry and commerce by the pocketbook for
the benefit of the people, rather than the benifit of Wall Street.
The money masters own Wall Street and always win because they have
unlimited money. The rest of us are suckers. Why would we create yet
another market they can dominate at our expence? Well, because they
own all the media and teach us what we ought to think is right in
order that they may line their own pockets. We know well a few of
their trolls on the internet, like those who debase the fractional
reserve banking page weekly so that we are fooled into believing they
actually have deposits backing the loans they make. Ha! But it
works. They appearently own all but two of the US congresspersons.

Instead we need a sustainable transparent, powerful, self funding
mechanism to regulate all the exponential impacts of society with a
stock mechanism, we do not need a new one for each separate commodity
making things more complex then they already are. We need to simplify
if we hope to understand it and stop making stupid regulations that
most always abused in some manner we did not anticipate.
See http://sites. google.com/ a/monetaryreform act.org/monetary -reform-act/ sustainability

Only a man with the financial power of Rex Tillerson can go against
the world powers since they cannot use their standard ploy of insuring
he gets no money. ExxonMobile it too big for even them to control
financially. I believe strongly we ought support him in this actively
or he will be discredited by them.

"Money power denounces, as public enemies, all who question its
methods or throw light upon its crimes." - Wm. Jennings Bryan

I am just waiting for the announcement that Rex Tillerson is under
invertigation, ug.

If WE do not act, he will lose the fight on behalf of our interests.
Fight the good fight!

Jim
http://MonetaryRefo rmAct.org

"A power has risen up in the government greater than the people
themselves, consisting of many and various powerful interest, combined
in one mass; and held together by the cohesive power of the vast
surplus in banks." - John C. Calhoun

"The real truth of the matter is,as you and I know, that a financial
element in the large centers has owned the government ever since the
days of Andrew Jackson..." -Franklin D. Roosevelt

"History records that the money changers have used every form of
abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their
control over governments by controlling money and its issuance." -James Madison

"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who makes
its Laws." ANSELM MEYER ROTHSCHILD (owner of major world banks)

"I sincerely believe ... that banking establishments are more
dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending
money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but
swindling futurity on a large scale."- Thomas Jefferson

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute
master of all industry and commerce." - James A. Garfield

"Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the
power to create money and control credit, and with a flick of a pen
they will create enough to buy it back." - Sir Josiah Stamp, former
President, Bank of England

http://MonetaryRefo rmAct.org
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan 13 02:31:08 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:31:08 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Looking For Info
In-Reply-To: <COL113-W69A55DC5C7533084FA9FE0A5D90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <762436.52635.qm@web27405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Tue, 13/1/09, helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: "Socialcreditlist" <socialcredit at elistas.com>, "Len Skowronski" <lmskowronski at shaw.ca>
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 2:24 AM




#yiv148413121 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv148413121 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

I would like to comment on some changes that have taken place in the world since the time when Douglas entered upon the world stage. 
>From reading his writings it appears that the prevailing belief at that time was that industrialization of production would lead to more leisure by an ever increasing number of people. And since you don't pay machines a wage to produce goods and services, the amount of purchasing power provided to a shrinking number of workers for producing
those goods and services would be wholly inadequate to buy them and so make continuing funds available to finance ongoing production. 
In order to deal with this problem the "leisured" class of people would be given access to free credit to purchase the excess goods and services available and, in the process, provide the required funds to maintain production. A win-win for everybody.? (I suspect Douglas had in mind the British aristocracy when he envisioned a "leisured" class of people because that was part of his experience growing up).
However, society did not develop quite the way envisioned: As affluence increased, people developed an insatiable appetite for ever more frivolous goods and services, making everybody even more busy than they were before!
As a result we now have a world that is choking in waste products from an overheated production system fueled by debt based credit (instead of free credit) where the people who made the ledger entries to create new money not only claim ownership of the stuff, but also claim interest on it for the arduous task of pushing a few keyboard buttons!
Awesome audacity. And they are actually getting away with it because most people don't understand what they are doing.
?Giving them that understanding is our job in the Social Credit Movement
Regards,
Helge



From: wmklinck at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:19:12 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Per, Social Credit has no intention of "adjusting to the realities of to-day." ?The so-called "realities" of the present are the evils which Social Credit aims to eliminate or rectify. ?Of prime concern is the elimination of both the threat and reality of the Servile State--whether it be fascist, communist, socialist, that of Keynesian debt-finance or any form of totalitarian or semi-totalitarian regime. ?As Douglas avered, we must build up from the individual and not down from the state. ?Systems were made for men and not men for systems. ?Economic policy must originate with individual consumers and not from the state. ?The ills that Douglas identified have only become more accentuated and more entrenched than when he wrote. ?Social Credit becomes more applicable with every increase in technological efficiency which displaces labor with technology and hence is even more appropriate than when Douglas began writing on the subject--which became
 known as Social Credit. ?I note that you have for some time made submissions to this group. ?The group exists to study the subject of Douglas Social Credit and anyone who contributes to it should reasonably be expected to have made a sincere and serious effort to read and understand the written works of Douglas and his close supporters. ?Would you kindly indicate to the group specifically which of those works you have read diligently so that those of the group might be informed as to your qualifications to expound on the subject. ?I am sure that you will agree that this is a fair request.
Sincerely
Wally





On 9-Jan-09, at 2:56 PM, Per Almgren wrote:


Joe Thomson skrev:

(John Rawson wrote:-) ?Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course, with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to link us further with anti-semitism.

(Joe replies:-) ?Linking "us further with anti-semitism" would be the least of my concerns over this method of approach, John. ?You may not be aware of it, but what you are proposing is the ?building of a totalitarian "slave state", ?not a one in which "individual" freedom will be allowed to develop and flourish. ?That the "slaves" will be well fed and quartered, while they're needed, is of little consequence. ?They're still "slaves", beholden for their continued ?sustenance to "servitude" to the "State" and the "system" it imposes on them.
In my opinion this writing of "slave state" is not what John describes. My impression now is that there is to much arguing of what Douglas have expressed in a special situation in this list and I think that if Social Credit should be of any use in the future, ?it must be allowed to adjust to realities of to-day. If no new thinking is accepted, there is not much use to discuss, it would just be a seminar of history, not a forum for promoting useful ideas for practical use in the society.

This is the very antithesis of "Social Credit". ??It is "Fascism" without the more odious facets of that failed system fully revealing themselves. ?Which they soon would, if ever it were imposed. ?It is interesting that we have been duped into calling this 'anti-semitism' considering where such a policy likely originated. 
This could not be called Fascism in the common meaning of the word.

Per Almgren

(John continues:-) And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the same category, which is ridiculous.

(Joe replies:-) ?It is "repaid", John. ?It cancels that portion of /existing/ debt charges that could not otherwise be repaid. ?Without creating ANOTHER debt charge in the process. ?It is an "accounting adjustment" carried out in the economy as a whole to more fully allow the overall costs of production to be FINANCIALLY, as well as 'physically', self-liquidating with consumption. ??(John continues:-) An independent Credit Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political decision, even if it only considered a divarication between discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

(Joe replies:-) ?I can ?generally agree with that provided it be realized this "new money" is applied to reducing prices to ?Consumers FIRST, not ?to funding other things which have additional "costs".

Regards,

Joe 

???----- Original Message -----

???*From:* John G Rawson <mailto:johngrawson at hotmail.com>

???*To:* Socred elistas <mailto:socialcredit at elistas.com>

???*Sent:* Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:07 PM

???*Subject:* RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



???For the first parts, you have valid points. ?I have never debated

???whether or not some form of price control might be necessary. But

???based on the rather inane information that had previously been

???circulated, I could not see how this particular mechanism could be

???practicable. Your new information at least clears part of that

???objection.

???Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And

???yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course,

???with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns

???etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to

???link us further with anti-semitism.

???And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid

???means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the

???same category, which is ridiculous. An independent Credit

???Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into

???circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand

???inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political

???decision, even if it only considered a divarication between

???discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

???The Ottawa agreement did nothing to increase trade or spending

???power. ?All it did was to close shop against other nations. And

???one of its minor sidelines was to force us to buy useless strains

???of forest seed from you rather than the USA. The Douglas fir

???appeared to have come from somewhere inside the arctic circle,

???because the lengtrh of day effect made it bud burst far too early

???in the spring so that it got frost-burned in our much milder

???climate in the central Nth. Is. Then it hardened off about

???Christmas and ceased growing through all the warm summer and

???autumn period. ?I remember a compartment in Kaingaroa Forest

???planted with both this strain and a normal one from Washington or

???wherever. The boundary looked like a sudden cliff face as the

???canopy dropped from one to the other.The only point I was making

???over food subsidies was that we had a humanitarian government that

???helped both public health and a major industry by the use of

???debt-free credit. Rooseveldt's New Deal did something the same

???thing on borrowed money. War expenditure finallly brought us right

???out, and as a point of interest NZ (with strict import controls)

???came out of the war with zero overseas debt. (And a bureaucracy

???subsidised less healthy white floured bread, not wholemeal!)

???But the government didn't "have to" subsidise food. People were

???starving and it used one method to help them. Coming from a

???(broke, ex-serviceman's) farm, I never went hungry. But I knew men

???my age whose developmenmt was stunted for that reason.

???It seems we may have to revisit times like that before enough

???people will again consider monetary reform. in any shape, SC or other.



???John R.



---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email wmklinck at shaw.ca
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email helgenome at hotmail.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit






---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit




      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan 13 02:37:57 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:37:57 GMT
Subject: [GJM] [BBC] Cost the Earth....BBC Radio Broadcast
Message-ID: <200901130937.n0D9bvwl006690@cgiperl12.thdo.bbc.co.uk>

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/costingtheearth_archive.shtml

Dear All,

	This may be of interest.

R.Searle





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From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 13 04:09:54 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:39:54 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] [monetaryReform] Exxon favors carbon tax over cap and
	trade for CO2 curbs
In-Reply-To: <546675.67236.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <167479.41871.qm@web94913.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Let us also call for reducing the emission through transformation of leisure pattern in the cities and across the cities of the world.Let us call for carbon neutral neighbourhood consultations/ discussions and adoption of faith based measure for transforming leisure. Making leisure use carbon-neutral is the most important contribution toward reduction in the emission of green house gases. We all in the cities and the villages need to appreciate the need to reduce fossil fuel travels for various purposes. More taxation results in call for more payment for more and more with rising inflation and expansion of ecologically hostile irreverent consumption and leisure use pattern including dancing,gambling ,drinking intoxicating drinks,smoking, substance abuse. It is all about transforming the leisure that we need to understand first and foremost along with the transformation of ecologically hostile habitats.
?
Prepare for the end of petro modern times and let us not declare a war on emissions.
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam


--- On Tue, 13/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [GJM] [monetaryReform] Exxon favors carbon tax over cap and trade for CO2 curbs
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 2:56 PM







?? Dear All,
?
?????????????? This story about Tillerson appeared in the Independent last Saturday if I recall correctly.
?
??????? R.Searle

--- On Mon, 12/1/09, Jim Whitescarver <jimscarver at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Jim Whitescarver <jimscarver at gmail.com>
Subject: [monetaryReform] Exxon favors carbon tax over cap and trade for CO2 curbs
To: "monetary reform" <monetaryReform at yahoogroups.com>, FixGov at yahoogroups.com, "Discussion Forum for Global Justice" <discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>, quantumrelativity at yahoogroups.com, "Franklin Whitescarver" <grampscarver at gmail.com>, "James Whitescarver" <blixyz at gmail.com>, "Gregory Whitescarver" <gwhitescarver at yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, 12 January, 2009, 9:19 PM






http://www.marketwa tch.com/news/ story/exxon- favors-carbon- tax-over/ story.aspx
CEO Rex Tillerson said Thursday...

"A carbon tax strikes us as a more direct, transparent and effective
approach," said Tillerson. "It is easier to apply globally, avoids the
establishment of new markets for trading emissions and new regulators
to monitor them, can be implemented through the existing tax
infrastructure and made revenue neutral to mitigate the impact on the
economy."

triangletrader 4 days ago +2 Votes (2 Up / 0 Dn)
"That's right. No brokerage house crooks trading carbon. Government
pockets all the money and gives it back to the citizen ,thus making it
revenue neutral.
The carbon tax is an effective way to go."

It makes sense. Rex Tillerson is right. Why create another humongous
bureaucracy to be abused at tax payer expense. Why not learn from the
money masters and control industry and commerce by the pocketbook for
the benefit of the people, rather than the benifit of Wall Street.
The money masters own Wall Street and always win because they have
unlimited money. The rest of us are suckers. Why would we create yet
another market they can dominate at our expence? Well, because they
own all the media and teach us what we ought to think is right in
order that they may line their own pockets. We know well a few of
their trolls on the internet, like those who debase the fractional
reserve banking page weekly so that we are fooled into believing they
actually have deposits backing the loans they make. Ha! But it
works. They appearently own all but two of the US congresspersons.

Instead we need a sustainable transparent, powerful, self funding
mechanism to regulate all the exponential impacts of society with a
stock mechanism, we do not need a new one for each separate commodity
making things more complex then they already are. We need to simplify
if we hope to understand it and stop making stupid regulations that
most always abused in some manner we did not anticipate.
See http://sites. google.com/ a/monetaryreform act.org/monetary -reform-act/ sustainability

Only a man with the financial power of Rex Tillerson can go against
the world powers since they cannot use their standard ploy of insuring
he gets no money. ExxonMobile it too big for even them to control
financially. I believe strongly we ought support him in this actively
or he will be discredited by them.

"Money power denounces, as public enemies, all who question its
methods or throw light upon its crimes." - Wm. Jennings Bryan

I am just waiting for the announcement that Rex Tillerson is under
invertigation, ug.

If WE do not act, he will lose the fight on behalf of our interests.
Fight the good fight!

Jim
http://MonetaryRefo rmAct.org

"A power has risen up in the government greater than the people
themselves, consisting of many and various powerful interest, combined
in one mass; and held together by the cohesive power of the vast
surplus in banks." - John C. Calhoun

"The real truth of the matter is,as you and I know, that a financial
element in the large centers has owned the government ever since the
days of Andrew Jackson..." -Franklin D. Roosevelt

"History records that the money changers have used every form of
abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their
control over governments by controlling money and its issuance." -James Madison

"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who makes
its Laws." ANSELM MEYER ROTHSCHILD (owner of major world banks)

"I sincerely believe ... that banking establishments are more
dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending
money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but
swindling futurity on a large scale."- Thomas Jefferson

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute
master of all industry and commerce." - James A. Garfield

"Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the
power to create money and control credit, and with a flick of a pen
they will create enough to buy it back." - Sir Josiah Stamp, former
President, Bank of England

http://MonetaryRefo rmAct.org
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From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 13 04:10:59 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:40:59 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] Declaring war on carbon emissions through simultaneous
	direct personal action
In-Reply-To: <546675.67236.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <663337.43796.qm@web94902.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Let us also call for reducing the emission through transformation of leisure pattern in the cities and across the cities of the world.Let us call for carbon neutral neighbourhood consultations/ discussions and adoption of faith based measure for transforming leisure. Making leisure use carbon-neutral is the most important contribution toward reduction in the emission of green house gases. We all in the cities and the villages need to appreciate the need to reduce fossil fuel travels for various purposes. More taxation results in call for more payment for more and more with rising inflation and expansion of ecologically hostile irreverent consumption and leisure use pattern including dancing,gambling ,drinking intoxicating drinks,smoking, substance abuse. It is all about transforming the leisure that we need to understand first and foremost along with the transformation of ecologically hostile habitats.
?
Prepare for the end of petro modern times and let us not declare a war on emissions.
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam


--- On Tue, 13/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [GJM] [monetaryReform] Exxon favors carbon tax over cap and trade for CO2 curbs
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 2:56 PM







?? Dear All,
?
?????????????? This story about Tillerson appeared in the Independent last Saturday if I recall correctly.
?
??????? R.Searle

--- On Mon, 12/1/09, Jim Whitescarver <jimscarver at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Jim Whitescarver <jimscarver at gmail.com>
Subject: [monetaryReform] Exxon favors carbon tax over cap and trade for CO2 curbs
To: "monetary reform" <monetaryReform at yahoogroups.com>, FixGov at yahoogroups.com, "Discussion Forum for Global Justice" <discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>, quantumrelativity at yahoogroups.com, "Franklin Whitescarver" <grampscarver at gmail.com>, "James Whitescarver" <blixyz at gmail.com>, "Gregory Whitescarver" <gwhitescarver at yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, 12 January, 2009, 9:19 PM






http://www.marketwa tch.com/news/ story/exxon- favors-carbon- tax-over/ story.aspx
CEO Rex Tillerson said Thursday...

"A carbon tax strikes us as a more direct, transparent and effective
approach," said Tillerson. "It is easier to apply globally, avoids the
establishment of new markets for trading emissions and new regulators
to monitor them, can be implemented through the existing tax
infrastructure and made revenue neutral to mitigate the impact on the
economy."

triangletrader 4 days ago +2 Votes (2 Up / 0 Dn)
"That's right. No brokerage house crooks trading carbon. Government
pockets all the money and gives it back to the citizen ,thus making it
revenue neutral.
The carbon tax is an effective way to go."

It makes sense. Rex Tillerson is right. Why create another humongous
bureaucracy to be abused at tax payer expense. Why not learn from the
money masters and control industry and commerce by the pocketbook for
the benefit of the people, rather than the benifit of Wall Street.
The money masters own Wall Street and always win because they have
unlimited money. The rest of us are suckers. Why would we create yet
another market they can dominate at our expence? Well, because they
own all the media and teach us what we ought to think is right in
order that they may line their own pockets. We know well a few of
their trolls on the internet, like those who debase the fractional
reserve banking page weekly so that we are fooled into believing they
actually have deposits backing the loans they make. Ha! But it
works. They appearently own all but two of the US congresspersons.

Instead we need a sustainable transparent, powerful, self funding
mechanism to regulate all the exponential impacts of society with a
stock mechanism, we do not need a new one for each separate commodity
making things more complex then they already are. We need to simplify
if we hope to understand it and stop making stupid regulations that
most always abused in some manner we did not anticipate.
See http://sites. google.com/ a/monetaryreform act.org/monetary -reform-act/ sustainability

Only a man with the financial power of Rex Tillerson can go against
the world powers since they cannot use their standard ploy of insuring
he gets no money. ExxonMobile it too big for even them to control
financially. I believe strongly we ought support him in this actively
or he will be discredited by them.

"Money power denounces, as public enemies, all who question its
methods or throw light upon its crimes." - Wm. Jennings Bryan

I am just waiting for the announcement that Rex Tillerson is under
invertigation, ug.

If WE do not act, he will lose the fight on behalf of our interests.
Fight the good fight!

Jim
http://MonetaryRefo rmAct.org

"A power has risen up in the government greater than the people
themselves, consisting of many and various powerful interest, combined
in one mass; and held together by the cohesive power of the vast
surplus in banks." - John C. Calhoun

"The real truth of the matter is,as you and I know, that a financial
element in the large centers has owned the government ever since the
days of Andrew Jackson..." -Franklin D. Roosevelt

"History records that the money changers have used every form of
abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their
control over governments by controlling money and its issuance." -James Madison

"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who makes
its Laws." ANSELM MEYER ROTHSCHILD (owner of major world banks)

"I sincerely believe ... that banking establishments are more
dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending
money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but
swindling futurity on a large scale."- Thomas Jefferson

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute
master of all industry and commerce." - James A. Garfield

"Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the
power to create money and control credit, and with a flick of a pen
they will create enough to buy it back." - Sir Josiah Stamp, former
President, Bank of England

http://MonetaryRefo rmAct.org
__._,_.___ 
Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic 
Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar 
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From maryrose333 at att.net  Tue Jan 13 12:29:41 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:29:41 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [SPAM]Re: Declaring war on carbon emissions through
	simultaneous	direct personal action
Message-ID: <000001c975b5$4babcb10$e3036130$@net>

Excuse me, Dr. Alam --  since when do ?leisure use patterns? contribute more
to carbon emissions than industrial production ? particularly that of
manufacturing weapons of mass destruction and chemicals for agricultural
use; commercialized agricultural practices;  and  mass transportation of
goods worldwide, among other things in a list too long to publish here.  

 

And, let us please look at things from a  biological and science-based
perspective instead of a faith-based one that fails to hold water.  Let us
first look to the depraved minds that dream up chemical cocktails for us to
eat and drink, and who invent the weapons of mass destruction with which to
destroy one another based on ?faith-based? belief systems in conflict with
one another.  

 

 

 

From: discussion-bounces at globaljusticemovement.net
[mailto:discussion-bounces at globaljusticemovement.net] On Behalf Of
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 3:11 AM
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net; dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Center For Ecological Audit Social Inclusion and Governance
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [GJM] Declaring war on carbon emissions through
simultaneous direct personal action

 


Let us also call for reducing the emission through transformation of leisure
pattern in the cities and across the cities of the world.Let us call for
carbon neutral neighbourhood consultations/ discussions and adoption of
faith based measure for transforming leisure. Making leisure use
carbon-neutral is the most important contribution toward reduction in the
emission of green house gases. We all in the cities and the villages need to
appreciate the need to reduce fossil fuel travels for various purposes. More
taxation results in call for more payment for more and more with rising
inflation and expansion of ecologically hostile irreverent consumption and
leisure use pattern including dancing,gambling ,drinking intoxicating
drinks,smoking, substance abuse. It is all about transforming the leisure
that we need to understand first and foremost along with the transformation
of ecologically hostile habitats.

 

Prepare for the end of petro modern times and let us not declare a war on
emissions.

 

Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam



--- On Tue, 13/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [GJM] [monetaryReform] Exxon favors carbon tax over cap and
trade for CO2 curbs
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 2:56 PM


   Dear All,

 

               This story about Tillerson appeared in the Independent last
Saturday if I recall correctly.

 

        R.Searle

--- On Mon, 12/1/09, Jim Whitescarver <jimscarver at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Jim Whitescarver <jimscarver at gmail.com>
Subject: [monetaryReform] Exxon favors carbon tax over cap and trade for CO2
curbs
To: "monetary reform" <monetaryReform at yahoogroups.com>,
FixGov at yahoogroups.com, "Discussion Forum for Global Justice"
<discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>, quantumrelativity at yahoogroups.com,
"Franklin Whitescarver" <grampscarver at gmail.com>, "James Whitescarver"
<blixyz at gmail.com>, "Gregory Whitescarver" <gwhitescarver at yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, 12 January, 2009, 9:19 PM

http://www.marketwa tch.com/news/ story/exxon- favors-carbon-
<http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/exxon-favors-carbon-tax-over/story.as
px>  tax-over/ story.aspx
CEO Rex Tillerson said Thursday...

"A carbon tax strikes us as a more direct, transparent and effective
approach," said Tillerson. "It is easier to apply globally, avoids the
establishment of new markets for trading emissions and new regulators
to monitor them, can be implemented through the existing tax
infrastructure and made revenue neutral to mitigate the impact on the
economy."

triangletrader 4 days ago +2 Votes (2 Up / 0 Dn)
"That's right. No brokerage house crooks trading carbon. Government
pockets all the money and gives it back to the citizen ,thus making it
revenue neutral.
The carbon tax is an effective way to go."

It makes sense. Rex Tillerson is right. Why create another humongous
bureaucracy to be abused at tax payer expense. Why not learn from the
money masters and control industry and commerce by the pocketbook for
the benefit of the people, rather than the benifit of Wall Street..
The money masters own Wall Street and always win because they have
unlimited money. The rest of us are suckers. Why would we create yet
another market they can dominate at our expence? Well, because they
own all the media and teach us what we ought to think is right in
order that they may line their own pockets. We know well a few of
their trolls on the internet, like those who debase the fractional
reserve banking page weekly so that we are fooled into believing they
actually have deposits backing the loans they make. Ha! But it
works. They appearently own all but two of the US congresspersons.

Instead we need a sustainable transparent, powerful, self funding
mechanism to regulate all the exponential impacts of society with a
stock mechanism, we do not need a new one for each separate commodity
making things more complex then they already are. We need to simplify
if we hope to understand it and stop making stupid regulations that
most always abused in some manner we did not anticipate.
See http://sites. google.com/ a/monetaryreform act.org/monetary
<http://sites.google.com/a/monetaryreformact.org/monetary-reform-act/sustain
ability>  -reform-act/ sustainability

Only a man with the financial power of Rex Tillerson can go against
the world powers since they cannot use their standard ploy of insuring
he gets no money. ExxonMobile it too big for even them to control
financially. I believe strongly we ought support him in this actively
or he will be discredited by them.

"Money power denounces, as public enemies, all who question its
methods or throw light upon its crimes." - Wm. Jennings Bryan

I am just waiting for the announcement that Rex Tillerson is under
invertigation, ug.

If WE do not act, he will lose the fight on behalf of our interests.
Fight the good fight!

Jim
http://MonetaryRefo <http://monetaryreformact.org/>  rmAct.org

"A power has risen up in the government greater than the people
themselves, consisting of many and various powerful interest, combined
in one mass; and held together by the cohesive power of the vast
surplus in banks." - John C. Calhoun

"The real truth of the matter is,as you and I know, that a financial
element in the large centers has owned the government ever since the
days of Andrew Jackson..." -Franklin D. Roosevelt

"History records that the money changers have used every form of
abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their
control over governments by controlling money and its issuance." -James
Madison

"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who makes
its Laws." ANSELM MEYER ROTHSCHILD (owner of major world banks)

"I sincerely believe ... that banking establishments are more
dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending
money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but
swindling futurity on a large scale."- Thomas Jefferson

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute
master of all industry and commerce." - James A. Garfield

"Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the
power to create money and control credit, and with a flick of a pen
they will create enough to buy it back." - Sir Josiah Stamp, former
President, Bank of England

http://MonetaryRefo <http://monetaryreformact.org/>  rmAct.org

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From maryrose333 at att.net  Tue Jan 13 12:36:19 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:36:19 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: Obama Answers Our Special Prosecutor Question on TV
Message-ID: <001e01c975b6$38c7ddd0$aa579970$@net>

 

 

From: Democrats.com [mailto:activist at democrats.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 5:16 AM
To: maryrose333 at att.net
Subject: Obama Answers Our Special Prosecutor Question on TV

 


 Democrats.com, the Aggressive Progressives - 500,000 strong and growing!
<http://democrats.com/files/images/small.gif>
<http://mail.democrats.com:80/OT000058MjA2NDQ5NAAA.GIF?D=2009-01-13> 

Obama Answers Our Special Prosecutor Question on TV 

Thanks to you, something remarkable happened this weekend: President-elect
Barack Obama answered our question asking if he will appoint a Special
Prosecutor to "investigate the gravest crimes of the Bush Administration,
including torture and warrantless wiretapping." Watch
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b-YXJ0PwJo>  the video.

Because of your votes, our question was #1
<http://change.gov/newsroom/entry/open_for_questions_round_2_response/>  on
Change.gov after 4.7 million votes were cast for 76,000 questions. We
received 22,779 votes; the next question (on bank bailout accountability)
received 19,271.

We shocked the political and media elites who believe ordinary Americans
don't care about holding Bush and Cheney accountable for their crimes. Your
votes proved them wrong!

But winning the vote didn't guarantee an answer; Obama tried to dodge the
question by recycling
<http://www.democrats.com/obama-fails-citizen-power-test>  an evasive answer
from Joe Biden.

Obama's strategy backfired. Bloggers like Ari <http://tinyurl.com/8gefha>
Melber of The Nation objected. Then MSNBC's Keith
<http://www.democrats.com/olbermann-features-our-special-prosecutor-question
>  Olbermann discussed our question with John Dean on Friday. Then on
Sunday, ABC's George
<http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2009/01/obama-leaves-do.html>
Stephanopoulos asked Obama our question on This Week. Obama replied:

Obviously we're going to look at past practices. And I don't believe that
anybody is above the law. On the other hand, I also have a belief that we
need to look forward as opposed to looking backwards. And part of my job is
to make sure that for example at the CIA, you've got extraordinarily
talented people who are working very hard to keep Americans safe. I don't
want them to suddenly feel like they've got to spend all their time looking
over their shoulders and lawyering up.

If nobody is above the law, then Obama must prosecute those who broke it.
That's why Obama's very first act is swearing the oath
<http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/pihtml/pioaths.html>  of office to "preserve,
protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

But Obama should not spend his time "looking backwards" and neither should
his Attorney General. That is exactly why we want a Special Prosecutor who
will pay no attention to politics and simply enforce the law.

And the Special Prosecutor should target the highest officials who have
admitted on TV they authorized torture: George Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald
Rumsfeld, and their thoroughly corrupt lawyers. No one else should have to
"look over their shoulders" or "lawyer up."

So we need your help again to continue our efforts to persuade
President-elect Obama to appoint a Special Prosecutor. Please vote for our
question again at a great independent website called change.org (not Obama's
change.gov):
 <http://tinyurl.com/5ohjyl> http://tinyurl.com/5ohjyl

You can also vote for 9 other questions. We hope you'll also vote for "Get
FISA Right, repeal the PATRIOT Act, and restore our civil liberties."
http://tinyurl.com/8ovtnt

Voting closes Thursday at 5 pm and the the top 10 finishers will be
announced at the National Press Club on Friday - so please vote today.

Thanks for all you do!

Bob Fertik

_______________________ 

Inaugural Events in Washington DC

Are you coming to Washington DC for the historic inauguration of President
Obama?

There are dozens of progressive events taking place:
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/inauguralevents 

And if you live in the DC area, there are even more progressive events
throughout January:
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/january

Some of the most committed Democrats.com members and friends marched in
Washington DC wearing death masks to remind Congress about the victims of
America's wars. Bill Moyers discussed the march on his PBS show:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Efm9uAnUU00

Together we're making a difference!

##### 

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From maryrose333 at att.net  Tue Jan 13 13:44:32 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:44:32 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] FDA is lax on oversight during
	trials, inquiry finds
Message-ID: <002e01c975bf$c0d1d470$42757d50$@net>

In her book, "Molecules of Emotion" which reveals the role that
neurotransmitters and other molecules play in creating our emotional
feelings, Dr. Candace Pert also reveals the games played at NIH by the Old
Boy's Network of scientific researchers as prestige interests and getting
funding for research of any kind, override finding cures.  

Dr. Pert was the first to discover opiate receptors in the brain as a
psychopharmocologist at NIH.  She is now on the speaking circuit telling the
story of our body as the subconscious mind and revealing her experiences at
research institutions. Coupled with cellular biologist Dr. Bruce Lipton's
revelations of his time as a researcher and professor at Ivy league
institutions, told in his book: "The Biology of Belief - The Science of How
Thoughts Control Life," their stories are shocking to say the least. 

Perhaps the next time the football, baseball, or soap operas beckon, the
time might be better spent on finding out how your health is being
jeopardized by those you trust.  

But, then on second thought I have to recognize that in San Diego County
alone some 422,000 individuals are functionally illiterate. Statewide in
California the number is 5.9 million. If we extrapolate this nationwide, the
figures are staggering. 

Then my mind jumps to the statistics provided previously that almost 28% of
the population of the U.S. is deemed to be legally insane (and this figure
may be low due to underreporting), coupled with the statistic that 40% of
all worldwide illegal drug production is sold in the U.S. (which has only
.05 of the world's population) and we use goodness only knows how much of
the world's legal drug production. Wow! Who is running the country? 

Note: Remember that we do not have a "drug problem" we have a "pain problem"
as people attempt to live in circumstances that were not inherent at our
biological beginning. We have now created an artificial world which has
removed us from the things that originally gave us soul and kept us
"grounded" -- our natural environment. Is it any wonder that our behavior
has become deviant in so many ways? 

What I am attempting to point out here is that there is one underlying cause
of our social diseases -- it is our present state of human consciousness.
Recall the figures as provided by Joseph Chilton Pearce that 75% of our
society today is "left-brain oriented".  A decidedly unbalanced state. The
holographic or "centered state" is the normal orientation and is found in
most children at birth.                         

-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 7:58 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] FDA is lax on oversight during trials,
inquiry finds


(To change your settings or unsubscribe please go to
http://lists.riseup.net/www/info/globalnetnews-summary)

FDA is lax on oversight during trials, inquiry finds
By Gardiner Harris
Published: January 12, 2009
http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/12/america/12fda.php

The Food and Drug Administration does almost nothing to police the
financial conflicts of doctors who conduct clinical trials of drugs and
medical devices in human subjects, government investigators are reporting.

Moreover, the investigators say, agency officials told them that trying to
protect patients from such conflicts was not worth the effort.

In 42 percent of clinical trials, the agency did not receive forms
disclosing doctors' financial conflicts and did nothing about the problem,
according to the investigation, which was conducted by the inspector
general of the Department of Health and Human Services and whose results
were scheduled to be made public Monday.

In 31 percent of the trials in which the agency did receive the required
forms, agency reviewers did not document that they looked at the
information. And in 20 percent of the cases in which doctors revealed
significant financial conflicts, neither the FDA nor the sponsoring
companies took any action to deal with the conflicts, the investigators
found.

Karen Riley, a spokeswoman for the F.D.A, said the agency opposed reviewing
doctors' financial conflicts before trials because they represented just
one possible source of bias.
Today in Americas
Obama's closing in on who will be appointed First Dog
Some doctors want the seriously ill to get up and move
Who would Jesus smack down?

A similar investigation by the inspector general last year found that the
National Institutes of Health did almost nothing to police the financial
conflicts of university professors who received federal money. And like
their colleagues at the FDA, officials at the health institutes said they
did not want to start doing so, that investigation found.

The inquiries feed a growing debate about how money that doctors routinely
collect from drug and device makers may hurt patients and skew studies.

In 1999, the agency required drug and device companies to disclose the
financial conflicts of doctors overseeing patient care in clinical trials.
The rules require companies to collect this information before the start of
any trial and to consult with the FDA to resolve serious conflicts.

But the inspector general found that the agency had done almost nothing to
enforce these rules or even to use the information generated.

Fewer than 1 percent of the doctors who helped oversee clinical trials
registered with the agency and who filed the required financial disclosure
forms reported that they had a significant conflict of interest. By
contrast, studies have found that one-fifth to one-third of all doctors
have such conflicts.

"This represents 206 of the 29,691 clinical investigators listed in
financial interest forms," the report says. "Of these 206 clinical
investigators, almost all disclosed only one financial interest."

Since the FDA does not have a complete list of all clinical investigators,
the agency has no way of knowing whether every doctor who is required to
file a form actually did so.

The rules allow drug and device makers to avoid reporting doctors'
financial conflicts if the companies certify that they tried diligently to
get the information but could not. Companies cited this exemption in 28
percent of drug and device applications, the inspector general found. But
in an additional 23 percent of applications, companies filed neither an
exemption nor the appropriate disclosure forms.

The inspector general recommended that the FDA do a better job of making
sure that companies follow the rules regarding financial disclosures, that
agency reviewers actually read these disclosures, and that all of this is
done before trials take place so patients are protected.

But the report said the agency replied that collecting and checking this
information before the trials was not worth the effort for either the
companies or the agency, even though the agency's own rules required it.



From jimscarver at gmail.com  Thu Jan  8 07:04:57 2009
From: jimscarver at gmail.com (Jim Whitescarver)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 09:04:57 -0500
Subject: [GJM] Currency vs. money
In-Reply-To: <200901070029.n070TqTT016031@mail14.tpg.com.au>
References: <20090106160921.810B432675E@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com>
	<f2a3ba50901061046l68f4436ev59c09816a5ac5478@mail.gmail.com>
	<200901070029.n070TqTT016031@mail14.tpg.com.au>
Message-ID: <f2a3ba50901080604u63dc77d7m9f50594e6784f42c@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 7:29 PM, John Hermann <hermann at picknowl.com.au> wrote:
> At 05:16 AM 7/01/2009, Jim wrote:
>
>> Suppose $10 trillion is created by debt and the amount of money not
>> representing debt is insignificant as it is in the US.  Say the amount to be
>> paid back is $10.5 trillion.  If, as I said, the principal of $10 trillion
>> is paid back, where does the 500 billion to pay the interest come from?
>
> It is clear that you did not understand what I said previously. The problem
> is that you are trying to interpret the situation without appreciating that
> we are dealing with a continuous dynamical system.  Money is flowing
> (virtually) continuously - in to and out of the economy.  And for this
> reason, the financial system always can provide the interest portion (or
> almost all of the interest portion) of any loan repayment.  That is, even in
> the hypothetical situation where the money supply is not growing (a thought
> experiment only, since our current economic system requires growth), the
> simple fact is that almost all of the interest portion of every loan
> repayment is available within the financial system - at any time.

I understand fully that this is a hypothetical situation, and not all
the principle will be paid back before the interest is paid in the
real dynamical system.

I am not taking about the dynamical system but the hypothetical
situation where all the principle is paid on all the debt before any
interest is paid.

It is a very unjust idea to tie the money supply to debt.  The
silliness of this hypothetical problem is just a way of illuminating
that fact. I am not trying to say that payment of interest reduces the
money supply and made that clear, I think.

Sorry if I cause confusion.

>> The sad reality is that the 500 billion comes from the tax payer who
>> perpetually pays compounded interest on it, impossible ultimately because of
>> its exponential nature.
>
> Incorrect.  The interest portion of loan repayments does not come from the
> taxpayer.


Interest on the national debt is paid by the taxpayers.   The
taxpayers are also citizens who pay the interest on our own money
supply created by loans.  The $500 billion bailout is also paid by the
taxpayers. No matter how you cut it we unfairly pay interest on the
money supply created out of thin air and pay for the failures of the
system as well.

Perhaps I should not have implied that the taxpayers pay all the
interest on our own money supply as tax.  Clearly much of this
interest is paid in the form of regular interest on money created out
of thin air, but they still pay it!  This is in addition to the
interest they pay on loans against actual deposits of money previously
in circulation.

Jim
http://MonetaryReformAct.org
> John Hermann


From steve at behappyandfree.com  Thu Jan  8 08:05:02 2009
From: steve at behappyandfree.com (Steve Consilvio)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:05:02 -0500
Subject: [GJM] complete	truth and the monkey parable
In-Reply-To: <mailman.174.1231419731.9479.discussion_globaljusticemovement.net@globaljusticemovement.net>
References: <mailman.174.1231419731.9479.discussion_globaljusticemovement.net@globaljusticemovement.net>
Message-ID: <B7E91A2F-7681-423B-AF1F-BC4A5FBE99BC@behappyandfree.com>

Jim,
We have the same goal, but you have used the word value here in many  
different ways.  One minute it is subjective, then market-place  
driven, then determined by bankers, then by government, then a  
mathematical equation, etc.  You don't really have it in focus, which  
is why you (and others) don't quite grasp what I am saying.

Each definition of value is a separate discussion, but in a discussion  
of economics, we need to have the math as a baseline!  If we are  
discussing the quality of life, that is a political (social) discussion.

This is what this image is trying to convey:  http://www.behappyandfree.com/pdf/commonground.jpg

Not only are definitions important, but the context of the realm in  
which they are used.  Liberty, for example, means voting politically,  
making money economically, and redemption religiously.  Which  
definition of liberty is 'real' or correct?  I would argue that the  
concept of liberty has to fit all three realms without contradiction.   
The same is true for the word 'value,' since liberty is based directly  
on what and how we value things and one another.

I know from experience how difficult it is to recognize ones own  
contradictions, but believe me when I say you are contradicting  
yourself.  I'm not making it up to hurt your feelings, but to help  
you.  Doubting yourself must be a constant exercise.

Money (value) is always simultaneously a practical act, a political  
act and a spiritual act.  Like a puzzle, the pieces cannot exist  
without the other, and they are cut to interlock, but they must be  
placed correctly to see the entire image.

What I am saying is that you are missing or have misfit some of the  
pieces, but you are actually a lot closer than many people on the  
list, fwiw.  You are at least engaging the concept of value, contracts  
and results.  We all see the mountain top, but we do not know the  
terrain well enough to find the path to the top.  Having been self- 
misemployed for 22 years, I am intimately familiar with the terrain.

I think you said you were a CPA; I sell t-shirts and advertising.  I  
sell pride, you sell fear.  The world doesn't need us.  Pride and fear  
are the twin demons that prevent liberty.  (Behappyandfree is just  
another description of liberty.)  But we need money to survive,  
regardless of the value we bring.

There are currents of ideas, currents of numbers, currents of habit.    
 From space, the Earth looks very calm, but on the surface, people are  
swept away in different currents.  Whether the analogy is paths on  
land or currents in water, how we understand our own definitions is  
pretty important.

Principles must precede policies, and consciousness must precede  
principles.  Definitions are the building blocks of consciousness.   
The image linked is a map of the currents of thought.

In the final analysis, nobody created anything.  The Earth was given  
to everyone.  Life is a gift.  We can only use it or misuse it,  
depending upon how we understand the concept of value.  Politically,  
prophets are stoned.  Why would people stone the wise, or crucify the  
just, etc?  It is because f what they believe.  Ideas rule the world,  
not men.

You, like many others here, keep focusing on men and/or procedures,  
but what you need to understand most is the power of ideas, and how  
ideas interact.  Which, again, is what that model is trying to  
convey.  Each empire has its own definition of value.  The  
contradictions are between and within the empires, and between the  
empires and theories.  In fact, we are swirling is a sea of various  
(contradictory) definitions of value; new ones are invented every  
day.  Obama's stimulus plan is yet another.  I see it as putting  
lipstick on Orwell.  (see my blog.)  I think that image would make a  
funny t-shirt, but what would be the point of selling it?  The value  
is in the concept.  If I sell it, I engage in 2+2=5.  We cannot escape  
the math until we confront it, and put ourselves within the equation.   
We are the monkey.

peace,
Steve
www.behappyandfree.com


On ThuJan 8, 2009, at 8:02 AM, discussion-request at globaljusticemovement.net 
  wrote:

>
> The economic value of a person or anything is subjective.  To me a
> human being is priceless.  But we can assign a value, say $20K per
> year for 50 years of enterprise or $1 million dollars as a baseline.
> Past value is not what I am talking about, it is future value.
...
>
>
> But value is subjective, if it is just colored dirt to you, it has
> little value.  The issue is not what value we were taught, it is what
> value it adds to our lives.
> ...
> We do not need to be stuck on the values we have been taught, we can
> choose a better way.
> Once we take the power to issue money away from the money masters they
> will no longer have the power to hoard commodities and control
> production as they now have.  We will be free to use abundant
> alternatives to enrich our lives given the ability to capitalize on
> them.
> ...
> Value is what you value and what society values.  A child is the most
> precious thing to me and to the future of humanity.
>
>> If you want to reform, then you must get back to basics.  You  
>> haven't gotten
>> back far enough to the beginning.  At the point where government  
>> creates
>> money, the system is doomed, since the government can't ever have  
>> enough
>> money for itself.
> ....
> If government creates money, and spends the money to create real value
> for the people, there cannot be too much value.
> ...
> It is not easy to account for real value.  Clearly if we make widets,
> and nobody buys widgets, then widgets are of no value.  If widgets are
> used once, and thrown away, they clearly have much less value than
> something that provides a lasting value.
>
> Responsible government spending must have objective requirements and
> accountability.  Taking control of the government from the money
> interests is a necessary prerequisite.
>> ...
>
> Yes, value is what you feel in your heat, not something assigned by
> others.  As a collective the notion of value is one of our consensus,
> not something that can be imposed on us.
>
> Each human being has equal rights to the resources of the planet, and
> that value belongs to them at any age.  the notion of value does not
> separate the generations in that respect.
> ...
> It is consumed, but sustains a human being.  I never suggested that
> price, under the current economic system has anything to do with
> value.
> ...
> I support currencies based on hours, and also on resources, and also
> derived value.  I just do not support money as debt as it exists
> today.  It is not worth the paper it is printed on in my view and we
> ought not use it.
>
> Everyone being housed, fed, educated, healthy, happy and productive is
> real value in my view and we need just enough money to represent that
> value while sustaining our planet.  To that end we will necessarily
> need to do some accounting, but that accounting need no obscure what
> is really of value to humanity.
>
> Peace,
>
> Jim
> http://MonetaryReformAct.org

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From jimscarver at gmail.com  Thu Jan  8 08:31:12 2009
From: jimscarver at gmail.com (Jim Whitescarver)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:31:12 -0500
Subject: [GJM] Currency vs. money
In-Reply-To: <20090107050309.985153267CA@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com>
References: <20090107050309.985153267CA@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <f2a3ba50901080731h4e130344g920596ce49162190@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 12:03 AM, Brock Moore <brock_moore at accountant.com> wrote:
> Brock, you have cleared up quite a few things for me concerning bank
> lending. Can you shed some light on how the national debt to the federal
> reserve can ever be paid? As things currently stand, for every dollar they
> "make" we owe it back plus interest. Borrowing continues to escalate while
> most of our income tax goes simply to pay interest on money they invented.
> ---------------------------------------------------
> The Fed holds less than ten percent of the national debt.  Most of it owed
> to banks, both domestic and foreign.  A large part of the debt is owed by
> the government to itself, that involving the various trust funds, including
> Social Security and the Highway Trust Fund.  The portion owed to the Fed is
> effectively also owed to itself, since the Fed rebates it profit to the
> government.  It is not true that most of the income tax goes to pay interest
> on the national debt:

This does not address how the debt will be paid or why we should pay
interest to the banks on money we ourselves back, not the banks.  We
must face the fact that the national debt is increasing exponentially
and will never be paid unless the monetary system is fixed.

And the federal debt is only the tip of the iceberg.  All money
created in the bank system is accompanied by interest paid to the
private banks.  It is true that some of the interest we pay is on
money that was previously in circulation and deposited in banks.  This
is a fair loan since is a consideration against existing value.
However, the money supply is increasing exponentially.  There is no
preexisting value on deposit corresponding to the new money created
within the banking system.  The loan contract in this case is not a
just contract and no consideration by the bank backs of the loan.
Repayment of the loan represents nearly infinite profit in the banking
system.

With the money supply doubling about every five years, if we assume
the average term of a loan is five years, than half of all interest
paid is paid on money that never existed before and was not owned by
anyone and was not deposited by anyone before the loan was issued.
The fact is that we pay interest on the entire money supply in a
system of debt based money.  There is no just cause that there must be
debt associated with the money supply.  It can be argued that we
should pay interest on loans against that portion that preexisted and
has been deposited in banks, but the fact that we pay interest on the
entire money supply is the greatest swindle against humanity.

"I sincerely believe ... that banking establishments are more
dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending
money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but
swindling futurity on a large scale."- Thomas Jefferson

> "Some people claim that 100% of the money the government gets from income
> tax goes to pay interest on the national debt.
>
> "Not true. In fact, not even close.
>
> "This myth is easily debunked by just looking up the numbers involved.
> Unfortunately, looking things up is a skill many tax protestors lack.
>
> "Let's look at the Budget of the United States.
>
> "The amount collected from income tax greatly exceeds the amount spent on
> interest on the national debt every year. For example, in 2006, the
> individual income tax raised $1.04 trillion (click this link and see page 30
> of the historical tables). The government's net interest expense in 2006 was
> $226 billion (see page 54 of the tables). That's about 20% of individual
> income tax revenues, not 100%."
> http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/debt.htm

Indeed, the federal debt is just a small part of the total US debt,
insluding state, local, and personal debt, which is nearly equal to
the money supply since the money supply is dependent on debt in the
current monetary system. The interest we pay to banks without fair
consideration on our own money supply is far greater than the total
income tax paid.  The total money supply is tied to the total debt.
The simple fact is that if government itself spent or loaned the money
into existence, responsibly, rather than allowing private banks to
create it, for the personal purposes of the money masters, there would
be no need of income tax.

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute
master of all industry and commerce." - James A. Garfield
(assassinated by the money interests after only 3 months as president)

Freeing the money supply from debt means there would be no necessary
liability associated with the money supply and we would not need ever
increasing debt and payment of interest to expand the money supply.

"History records that the money changers have used every form of
abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their
control over governments by controlling money and its issuance."
-James Madison

Jim

> Brock
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Whitescarver"
> To: "Brock Moore"
> Cc: "Discussion Forum for Global Justice" , FixGov at yahoogroups.com,
> "monetary reform" , "Franklin Whitescarver" , "Robert Whitescarver" ,
> "Gregory Whitescarver"
> Subject: Re: [GJM] Currency vs. money
> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 21:27:23 -0500
>
> I could not read all of this because it's too frustrating.
> I think that Jim's arguments are meant to address money created by the
> Federal Reserve and the fate of interest paid to it.
> Bank lending is different.
>
> Brock, you have cleared up quite a few things for me concerning bank
> lending.
> Can you shed some light on how the national debt to the federal reserve can
> ever be paid?
> As things currently stand, for every dollar they "make" we owe it back plus
> interest.
> Borrowing continues to escalate while most of our income tax goes simply to
> pay interest on money they invented.
>
> Brock, don't waste your time correcting Jim's spelling.  He's dyslexic.  It
> also makes you sound condescending.
>
> Can you defend the federal reserve the same way you've defended regular
> private banks?
>
> JamesJr
>
>
>
> --
> Be Yourself @ mail.com!
> Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
> Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!
> _______________________________________________
> Discussion mailing list
> Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
> http://globaljusticemovement.net/mailman/listinfo/discussion_globaljusticemovement.net
>
>


From jimscarver at gmail.com  Thu Jan  8 12:02:30 2009
From: jimscarver at gmail.com (Jim Whitescarver)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 14:02:30 -0500
Subject: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical Economics.....
In-Reply-To: <98183.2612.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <98183.2612.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f2a3ba50901081102h3cd36072n6522bdd90bc871a0@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, Robert.  Social Credit is a great concept but we have to be more
pragmatic, as you suggest by its failure in Canada, if we hope to beat
the money interests.  It is also not clear to me that Social Credit is
a complete solution by itself.  Instead, it seems to be just one tool
in an arsenal of powers provided by ability for humanity to create
money, and control the money supply, for its own betterment.

Transfinanical Economics seems to be a very general notion with
specifics that change day to day.  While this leaves me clueless on
the specifics of its experimentation, it may be prudent that we adopt
principle, rather than specifics, as a path to a solution.

The present description
http://www.kheper.net/essays/Transfinancial_Economics.html
is incomplete and out of date.  The basic principle is to use our
power to create money for the benefit of humanity.

It can be improved in many ways. Social Credit, for example, is a
mechanism I would employ before price controls.  I would also tax
unfair competition and resource depletion before employing social
Credit..  I would only eliminate taxes on income and sales.  It is
unjust not to tax those who exploit the rest of us.  It is wrong to
tax enterprise.  Enterprise that is taxed, is not free.

Our ability to spend and tax is our collective means to control the
effects of Behavioral Economics, employed for our benefit, rather than
our detriment.

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute
master of all industry and commerce." - US President James A. Garfield
(assassinated by the money interests)

Our control is fine tuned by spending or lending money into existence,
and taxing money out of circulation selectively.

"We are all keynesians....again!" - Robert

There is merit in this statement, Robert, I hope, in a true sense it
is true.  Not in the popular view promoted by the money interests, but
in the true Keynesian sense.

John Maynard Keynes,
The Economic Consequences of the Peace,
1920, page 240 	"If, however, a government refrains from regulations
and allows matters to take their course,  essential commodities soon
attain a level of price out of the reach of all but the rich, the
worthlessness of the money becomes apparent, and the fraud upon the
public can be concealed no longer."

I hope we are at that point now and we fix it!

John Maynard Keynes,
The Economic Consequences of the Peace,
1920, page 235ff 	"Lenin is said to have declared that the best way to
destroy the Capitalistic System was to debauch the currency. . .
Lenin was certainly right. There is no subtler, no surer means of
overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the
currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on
the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in
a million can diagnose."

If only we had heeded this warning, so much suffering could have been
avoided.  But regulation most often restricts enterprise and is
harmful to free enterprise.  Regulation by means of taxing and
spending regulates without limiting free enterprise and ought be the
preferred means of regulation.  Most attempts at regulation are
ineffectual because the game is changed by the money interests as fast
as regulations can be written.  A windfall profit tax, on the other
hand, is independent of the means used to obtain it, and can make
market manipulation unprofitable, or at least less profitable than
providing real value to consumers.

For Transfinanical Economics to be a real solution, in my view, it
must be extended to include every way we can use the power to control
money for the benefit of humanity.

And we cannot put our stock in any theory or ideal without proving it
in operational trials.

I invite you, or anyone, to apply Transfinanical Economics, or any
proposed solution, in the AnewGo economy.  Alternative currencies are
real money, unlike money of the central banking system, we can apply
potential solutions to the exchange of these real currencies,  in
addition to the AnewGo currency, in the AnewGo economy, where we are
free to be the change, and see what works.
http://WikiWorld.com/AnewGo

Jim
http://MonetaryReformAct.org
On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 11:13 AM, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> --- On Thu, 8/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: RE: Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical Economics.....
> To: "helge nome" <helgenome at hotmail.com>
> Date: Thursday, 8 January, 2009, 4:10 PM
>
>   Dear Helge Nome, et al,
>
>                     What you say appears to be correct. Japanese banks cut
> their interest rates to Zero in the 90s but this did not have the desired
> effect to fully encourage spending, and new investment. They experienced
> deflation, and may well enter another period of it .
>
> However, it appears that pumping in more money (ie spend out of recession)
> in a "measured way" over a period of time can  bring things back to
> "normal"and stimulate the economy. It is all a question really of when, and
> how much would be required. This cannot be easily predicted though
> economists try!!!
>
> One approach to stimulate growth is for a democratic government to bail out
> practically all industries plus most of the private, and public debts of
> individuals if things get really tough. With TFE this would be possible but
> it would also could arguably create  moral hazard, and could be seen as
> "morally absurd "depending on who, and what you are bailing out! Moreover,
> inflation, or worse could ensue. With TFE this can be directly controlled
> without the need for taxes, or ofcourse interest rartes.
>
> Indeed, in TFE we would have a far more accurate understanding of the
> electronic dimension of the entire economy of supply, and demand (as most
> transactions, and their registered ID codes  could be tracked
> electronically, and transmitted to the specially programmed bank computers),
> and would be better to know in record time when a recovery were likely or
> not. I know this may smack a bit of Big Brother but there we are
>
> As I am sure you know Behaviourial Economics has become very much the vogue
> in academia especially in connection with money markets. It is also
> something which we must take into account with any new serious  economic
> paradigm. Computational Economics is also another subject which is being
> taken more, and more seriously. It has notably played a major role in the
> money markets especially in connection with algorithmic trading.
>
> Ofcourse when the  Social Credit Party of Alberta first came into power back
> in the early 20th century  it tried to sort out the banks who in turn filed
> lawsuits against it, and largely won as far as I understand it. So, you can
> see that if one tried to do the same in the 21st century the chances of
> success would probably be nil. This is why one advocates a very different
> approach which most monetary reformers will not like. It would admitedly
> continue to accept the elite for the time being but could also lead
> ultimately to their demise with better financed, and better empowered NGOs
> to tackle them so to speak by winning public support for the gradual
> emergence of more advanced ways of doing things sustainably with an emphasis
> on fairer wealth distribution for all.................
>
> But I think it is more important that some kind of advanced system of
> finance is created which can lead to greater global justice (using a price
> tag to achieve it as already indicated in the previous email!!) .I find it
> difficult to see any other way forward with the possible exception of
> something like Simultaneous Policy. A moral approach of activism, and
> governmental intervention would be far better...but is unlikely to  work if
> at all unless as you suggest something really serious happened to force
> people to do something about the status quo. and to get them on the streets
> so to speak!
>
> So, there you are!
>
> Robert Searle.
>
>                   We are all keynesians....again!
>
>
>
> --- On Thu, 8/1/09, helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com>
> Subject: RE: Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical
> Economics............................
> To: "Robert Searle" <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Date: Thursday, 8 January, 2009, 1:13 AM
>
> Hi Robert,
> Sounds like there are some interesting moments on the eList. Be that as it
> may. Inflation/deflation is a fascinating subject. It seems to me that in
> order to account for human economic behaviour, we need to take into account
> the prevailing public mood at any given time. For example, a bull or bear
> market is driven by collective beliefs in future market trends.
>  So merely pumping new money into circulation does not mean that it will
> automatically begin to inflate prices. That depends on the prevailing public
> mood which may dictate the money to be hoarded rather than spent, as is the
> case right now with a financial crisis in the making. That means, at this
> time, even if free money was made available to consumers, those consumers
> may elect to hold on to the money rather than spending it on goods and
> services which would stimulate the real economy. FDR said: "The only thing
> we have to fear is fear itself". And he was right. The current deflationary
> trend is driven by collective fear, fear of going bankrupt if you spend your
> money or continue to use your available credit.
> Here in Alberta, we are trying to build awareness of monetary ownership,
> once again. There are just a few old timers left who has any memory of the
> Great Depression and its causes.
> As you point out, the financial establishment is not willingly going to
> allow anybody to wrestle the control and claimed ownership of capital away
> from it. Things will need to get pretty grim before people decide that
> enough is enough.
> Regards,
> Helge
>
> ________________________________
> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:07:53 +0000
> From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
> Subject: RE: Beyond Social Credit to Transfinanical
> Economics............................
> To: helgenome at hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Easily add maps and directions to your online party invites. Click to learn
> how.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discussion mailing list
> Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
> http://globaljusticemovement.net/mailman/listinfo/discussion_globaljusticemovement.net
>
>


From jimscarver at gmail.com  Thu Jan  8 15:52:48 2009
From: jimscarver at gmail.com (Jim Whitescarver)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:52:48 -0500
Subject: [GJM] Blagojevich framed?
Message-ID: <f2a3ba50901081452q7a3e84bbm8ac944df43b33556@mail.gmail.com>

My great grand father, told his son, who told my father, who told me,
"Never go into politics.  The will say you are a crook and prove it!"

Everyone who has gone up against the money interests has been
assassinated or discredited.  Chicago government has indeed largely
been a den of iniquity.  Illinois state government however has been
relatively clean in spite of the fact that is has been a leader in
advocating monetary reform in the spirit of Abraham Lincoln.

"The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency
and credits needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and
the buying power of  consumers. By the adoption of these principles,
the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease
to be master and become the servant of humanity." - Abraham  Lincoln

December 8th - Blagojevich announces the State of Illinois will
suspend doing business with Bank of America

December 9th -
Feds suddenly announce he's been under investigation for 3 years and
is indicted based on recent a wire tap.

"His real crime" captured on video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkGFOn8X1X4
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=agOFtufX.FXQ&refer=home

His alleged crime.
"On the issue of the U.S. Senate seat that Obama resigned Nov. 16,
federal prosecutors said they had numerous recorded conversations of
Blagojevich discussing the merits of potential candidates, including
their abilities to benefit the people of Illinois as well as the
financial and political benefits he and his wife, First Lady Patricia
Blagojevich, could receive."

What right did they have to listen in on his private conversations and
how can they conclude from this that he was selling the seat to the
highest bidder? In a personal conversation is it illegal to talk about
personal benefit?

On the one hand, we can say even considering personal benefit stinks.
But realistically we could not expect that anyone denies or does not
consider or discuss personal benefit.  For all we know, personal
benefit was considered a negative determinant to the nomination as it
would throw suspicion on his appointment.  If for no other reason,
because he is one of the very few politicians who stands up against
the money masters, he should be given the benefit of the doubt, and
even affirmative action in my book, nobody is perfect, but Blagojevich
has come close, as demonstrated in the video, in his fight for the
people.

If it were true that Blagojevich is a corrupt politician seeking to
line his own pocket, then he would most certainly embrace the money
masters whom are the largest buyers of influence.  The fact that he
stood up against them proves to me that he could not be bought.

And why is the Blagojevich impeachment committee threatening Burris?

Jim Durkin, a Republican state representative who sits on a committee
that is conducting an impeachment inquiry into the governor and who
said he now intended to request that Burris be summoned before the
committee to discuss how the Senate appointment had come about. "Mr.
Burris left Illinois government with a good reputation, which will be
significantly tarnished if he accepts this appointment," Durkin said.

America has been bamboozled by the money masters again, in my view,
and they seems to be succeeding again in ruling the state of Illinois
and controlling the US Senate.

Would a reasonable man even consider there could be such a conspiracy?
 Consider the following:

"Money power denounces, as public enemies, all who question its
methods or throw light upon its crimes." - Wm. Jennings Bryan

"History records that the money changers have used every form of
abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their
control over governments by controlling money and its issuance."
-James Madison

"A power has risen up in the government greater than the people
themselves, consisting of many and various powerful interest, combined
in one mass; and held together by the cohesive power of the vast
surplus in banks." - John C. Calhoun

"The real truth of the matter is,as you and I know, that a financial
element in the large centers has owned the government ever since the
days of Andrew Jackson..." -Franklin D. Roosevelt

Woodrow Wilson signed the 1913 Federal Reserve Act. A few years later
he wrote: "I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my
country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of
credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the
nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few
men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most
completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world
no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by
conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the
opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson

"The issue which has swept down the Centuries, and must be fought -
sooner or later -is the people versus the banks...Power tends to
corrupt, and absolute power corrupt absolutely..." - Lord Acton

"All wars are economic in their origin". BERNARD BARUCH

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute
master of all industry and commerce." - James A. Garfield,
assassinated as were Lincoln and Kennedy after standing up against the
secrete society of the money masters..

"There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis
of society than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the
hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it
in a manner which not one man in a million can diagnose." - John
Maynard Keynes, economist

"You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by
the eternal God, I will rout you out." - Andrew Jackson: To delegation
of bankers discussing the Bank Renewal Bill, 1832

Jackson did beat the banks, and paid off the national debt,
temporarily, but has since been largely discredited.  I think the time
has come that we renew his determination and take back our freedom
from the money masters. It is unfortunate that Blagojevich and many
others will be martyred in the fight.  The money interests own our
political parties and our media, their trols even succeed in
corrupting information in WikiPedia.  Massive www.EndTheFed.us
demonstrations at 38 Federal Reserve locations Nov. 20 2008 went
virtually unreported even on the internet.  The money masters hold the
keys to what we believe is truth in spite of all the evidence to the
contrary we still fall victim to believing the version of reality they
promote.  It will not be an easy fight.

"Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the
power to create money and control credit, and with a flick of a pen
they will create enough to buy it back." - Sir Josiah Stamp, former
President,  Bank of England

Let us pray, that in the spirit of Lincoln, Obama takes back the power
of money that rightly belongs to the people so that we may prosper and
truth can rule in our collective action.

Jim
http://MonetaryRefomAct.org


From bmslib at mit.edu  Fri Jan  9 14:22:12 2009
From: bmslib at mit.edu (W. Curtiss Priest)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:22:12 -0500
Subject: [GJM] CNN To Air I.O.U.S.A. This Weekend [CITS Capital & Debt Watch
	Alert]
Message-ID: <4967C003.179@mit.edu>

CNN To Air I.O.U.S.A. This Weekend [CITS Capital & Debt Watch Alert]

As some know, Peterson, philanthropist, decided to put
$1 billion into exposing the condition of this nation after
being convinced by David Walker, prior Director, US General
Accountability Office (GAO), of the massive dislocations
occurring in this country.

As the story goes, Walker personally took on the challenge
of trying to inform Washington folk of the coming 
maelstrom.  Per the wisdom expressed by Davidson/Rees-Mogg
(Blood in the Streets, 1989; The Great Reckoning, 1992) it
is never in the interest of politicians to allow themselves
to be forewarned of dire economic information, and Walker
personally experienced the unwillingness of "the Hill" to
listen to such messages, even though he was perhaps the most
singularly important watchdog member of the Congressional
Branch of US Government.

Later, Walker began tours of the US to speak to anyone who
would listen, and about two years ago became President of
the Peter G. Peterson Foundation in February of 2008.

One of the projects of the Foundation was the creation and
funding of the movie I.O.U.S.A.  Addison Wiggin of Bonner and
Wiggin's "Empire of Debt" was a consultant to the movie, and
material from this newsletter also helped shape the movie.

In reading some online reviews, responses by people who have
seen the movie in the theaters ranges from amazement to "so what?"

CITS views the movie as yet one more insightful documentation
of the kind of thinking and eventual mass hysteria that leads
to serious recessions and to depressions.  Now that the media
and the politicians have been "unmuzzled," as now there is
no denying anything dire, the movie, unfortunately, joins that
'fanfare' ... and whatever fanfare that thirty years of mania and
denial deserves.

Since 1998, when we published an article in the Boston Globe,
we took what we call the Humpty-Dumpty approach to 
avoiding depressions.  While, today, all King's horses and all
the King's men are attempting to put Humpty-Dumpty back together,
we asked in 1998, and we ask now, "why was a fragile egg precariously
perched on a wall?"

In our recent video/comic book project called "Turning to Warriors at
Times Like Now"  -- see YouTube:

	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm3PEkzDppk (9 minutes)

Liner notes, etc. are at http://www.cybertrails.org/mil

In the video we cite our 1998 article which suggests that the best we
can
do, for now, is to carefully record what allowed yet another
depressional cycle to occur, and ask that, rather than applying
our scarce resources to "stimulus" and rather than greatly increasing
the possible "hyperinflation" of the US dollar (imitating
the "brilliance" of Germany circa 1920-1924), we need
to, instead, accept the fact that we "spent it all, already." 

And we, in our many, unfilled, quiet hours ahead have lots of time to
figure out how to restructure capitalism to prevent the next major
depression expected around 2070.  And further, we need to also figure
out how to spend these hours with meager resources without
resorting to warfare where some, exhibiting their more beastly
natures, will want to take those desired resources from others.

For further thoughts about what the restructuring might involve,
one can consult the works of Kucinich (recently submitted House
Bill, the writings and materials of Ron Paul, draft legislation
published
by the American Monetary Institute (AMI), and a draft Constitutional
Amendment we have written -- "the 28th Amendment."  There is much
to Google about for, still, too few ideas.

Sincerely,

WCP, Editor
CITS Capital & Debt Watch
-- 

	   W. Curtiss Priest, Director, CKL&S
	 Center for Knowledge, Learning & Progress
    (formerly the Center for Information, Technology & Society)
	 466 Pleasant St., Melrose, MA  02176
   781-662-4044  BMSLIB at MIT.EDU http://Cybertrails.org
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Subject: CNN To Air I.O.U.S.A. This Weekend
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From jimscarver at gmail.com  Mon Jan 12 14:19:14 2009
From: jimscarver at gmail.com (Jim Whitescarver)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:19:14 -0500
Subject: [GJM] Exxon favors carbon tax over cap and trade for CO2 curbs
Message-ID: <f2a3ba50901121319v4d31dcai36d6085382455265@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/exxon-favors-carbon-tax-over/story.aspx
CEO Rex Tillerson said Thursday...

"A carbon tax strikes us as a more direct, transparent and effective
approach," said Tillerson. "It is easier to apply globally, avoids the
establishment of new markets for trading emissions and new regulators
to monitor them, can be implemented through the existing tax
infrastructure and made revenue neutral to mitigate the impact on the
economy."

triangletrader 4 days ago +2 Votes (2 Up / 0 Dn)
"That's right. No brokerage house crooks trading carbon. Government
pockets all the money and gives it back to the citizen ,thus making it
revenue neutral.
The carbon tax is an effective way to go."

It makes sense.  Rex Tillerson is right. Why create another humongous
bureaucracy to be abused at tax payer expense.  Why not learn from the
money masters and control industry and commerce by the pocketbook for
the benefit of the people, rather than the benifit of Wall Street.
The money masters own Wall Street and always win because they have
unlimited money.  The rest of us are suckers.  Why would we create yet
another market they can dominate at our expence?  Well, because they
own all the media and teach us what we ought to think is right in
order that they may line their own pockets.  We know well a few of
their trolls on the internet, like those who debase the fractional
reserve banking page weekly so that we are fooled into believing they
actually have deposits backing the loans they make.  Ha!  But it
works. They appearently own all but two of the US congresspersons.

Instead we need a sustainable transparent, powerful, self funding
mechanism to regulate all the exponential impacts of society with a
stock mechanism, we do not need a new one for each separate commodity
making things more complex then they already are.  We need to simplify
if we hope to understand it and stop making stupid regulations that
most always abused in some manner we did not anticipate.
See http://sites.google.com/a/monetaryreformact.org/monetary-reform-act/sustainability

Only a man with the financial power of Rex Tillerson can go against
the world powers since they cannot use their standard ploy of insuring
he gets no money.  ExxonMobile it too big for even them to control
financially.  I believe strongly we ought support him in this actively
or he will be discredited by them.

"Money power denounces, as public enemies, all who question its
methods or throw light upon its crimes." - Wm. Jennings Bryan

I am just waiting for the announcement that Rex Tillerson is under
invertigation, ug.

If WE do not act, he will lose the fight on behalf of our interests.
Fight the good fight!

Jim
http://MonetaryReformAct.org

"A power has risen up in the government greater than the people
themselves, consisting of many and various powerful interest, combined
in one mass; and held together by the cohesive power of the vast
surplus in banks." - John C. Calhoun

"The real truth of the matter is,as you and I know, that a financial
element in the large centers has owned the government ever since the
days of Andrew Jackson..." -Franklin D. Roosevelt

"History records that the money changers have used every form of
abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their
control over governments by controlling money and its issuance." -James Madison

"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who makes
its Laws." ANSELM MEYER ROTHSCHILD (owner of major world banks)

"I sincerely believe ... that banking establishments are more
dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending
money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but
swindling futurity on a large scale."- Thomas Jefferson

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute
master of all industry and commerce." - James A. Garfield

"Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the
power to create money and control credit, and with a flick of a pen
they will create enough to buy it back." - Sir Josiah Stamp, former
President,  Bank of England

http://MonetaryReformAct.org


From steve at behappyandfree.com  Mon Jan 12 16:49:43 2009
From: steve at behappyandfree.com (Steve Consilvio)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 18:49:43 -0500
Subject: [GJM] A Bill for the Betterment of Virtue and Wisdom
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1231786804.32099.discussion_globaljusticemovement.net@globaljusticemovement.net>
References: <mailman.1.1231786804.32099.discussion_globaljusticemovement.net@globaljusticemovement.net>
Message-ID: <D30383C4-B0A5-4029-8D92-175F86A9766C@behappyandfree.com>

Hello everyone,

I am in the process of submitting a citizen's petition to the  
Massachusetts State House.  (Just because I lost the election, that  
doesn't mean that I am going away.) :-)

It is entitled: A Bill for the Betterment of Virtue and Wisdom

While it is written for conditions here in Massachusetts, it can be  
easily adapted to any locale.

It contains 18 concrete changes, all of which can be accomplished at  
the state and local level, without Federal government permission or  
intervention.

It is a bit long for an e-mail, but you can read it here:

http://www.behappyandfree.com/Home/solution.html

thanks,
steve


From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 13 03:41:50 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:11:50 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] Prayers for Warmongering usurers respecting the commands
	against usury
In-Reply-To: <762436.52635.qm@web27405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <15460.24039.qm@web94902.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

The goals of the social credit is laudable and I recall that this is very much accepted by Rodney and all in GJM. The call for public controlled creation of interest free money eliminiating usurious finance is based on that. It is worthnoting that the desire of the plenty of leisure is not ecologically sustainable for as all of us need to relearn to value?of physical labour involved in agriculture. While Israel is involved in killing the children, women and men in Gaza strip we need to call their religious leaders to call the bluff and show the way of Moses against usury. let us pray for their guidance. Usury is prohibited for all and God gave us a criterion to follow not distinguishing between the 'chosen' ?people and others. People were chosen for their covenants and not for the violation of the covenants. We all need to unite to respect the command against usury.
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam

--- On Tue, 13/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [GJM] [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 3:01 PM








--- On Tue, 13/1/09, helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: "Socialcreditlist" <socialcredit at elistas.com>, "Len Skowronski" <lmskowronski at shaw.ca>
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 2:24 AM




#yiv689468885 #yiv148413121 .hmmessage P
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I would like to comment on some changes that have taken place in the world since the time when Douglas entered upon the world stage. 
>From reading his writings it appears that the prevailing belief at that time was that industrialization of production would lead to more leisure by an ever increasing number of people. And since you don't pay machines a wage to produce goods and services, the amount of purchasing power provided to a shrinking number of workers for producing
those goods and services would be wholly inadequate to buy them and so make continuing funds available to finance ongoing production. 
In order to deal with this problem the "leisured" class of people would be given access to free credit to purchase the excess goods and services available and, in the process, provide the required funds to maintain production.. A win-win for everybody.? (I suspect Douglas had in mind the British aristocracy when he envisioned a "leisured" class of people because that was part of his experience growing up).
However, society did not develop quite the way envisioned: As affluence increased, people developed an insatiable appetite for ever more frivolous goods and services, making everybody even more busy than they were before!
As a result we now have a world that is choking in waste products from an overheated production system fueled by debt based credit (instead of free credit) where the people who made the ledger entries to create new money not only claim ownership of the stuff, but also claim interest on it for the arduous task of pushing a few keyboard buttons!
Awesome audacity. And they are actually getting away with it because most people don't understand what they are doing.
?Giving them that understanding is our job in the Social Credit Movement
Regards,
Helge



From: wmklinck at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:19:12 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Per, Social Credit has no intention of "adjusting to the realities of to-day." ?The so-called "realities" of the present are the evils which Social Credit aims to eliminate or rectify. ?Of prime concern is the elimination of both the threat and reality of the Servile State--whether it be fascist, communist, socialist, that of Keynesian debt-finance or any form of totalitarian or semi-totalitarian regime. ?As Douglas avered, we must build up from the individual and not down from the state. ?Systems were made for men and not men for systems. ?Economic policy must originate with individual consumers and not from the state. ?The ills that Douglas identified have only become more accentuated and more entrenched than when he wrote. ?Social Credit becomes more applicable with every increase in technological efficiency which displaces labor with technology and hence is even more appropriate than when Douglas began writing on the subject--which became
 known as Social Credit. ?I note that you have for some time made submissions to this group. ?The group exists to study the subject of Douglas Social Credit and anyone who contributes to it should reasonably be expected to have made a sincere and serious effort to read and understand the written works of Douglas and his close supporters. ?Would you kindly indicate to the group specifically which of those works you have read diligently so that those of the group might be informed as to your qualifications to expound on the subject. ?I am sure that you will agree that this is a fair request. 
Sincerely
Wally





On 9-Jan-09, at 2:56 PM, Per Almgren wrote:


Joe Thomson skrev:

(John Rawson wrote:-) ?Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course, with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to link us further with anti-semitism.

(Joe replies:-) ?Linking "us further with anti-semitism" would be the least of my concerns over this method of approach, John. ?You may not be aware of it, but what you are proposing is the ?building of a totalitarian "slave state", ?not a one in which "individual" freedom will be allowed to develop and flourish. ?That the "slaves" will be well fed and quartered, while they're needed, is of little consequence. ?They're still "slaves", beholden for their continued ?sustenance to "servitude" to the "State" and the "system" it imposes on them.
In my opinion this writing of "slave state" is not what John describes. My impression now is that there is to much arguing of what Douglas have expressed in a special situation in this list and I think that if Social Credit should be of any use in the future, ?it must be allowed to adjust to realities of to-day. If no new thinking is accepted, there is not much use to discuss, it would just be a seminar of history, not a forum for promoting useful ideas for practical use in the society.

This is the very antithesis of "Social Credit". ??It is "Fascism" without the more odious facets of that failed system fully revealing themselves. ?Which they soon would, if ever it were imposed. ?It is interesting that we have been duped into calling this 'anti-semitism' considering where such a policy likely originated. 
This could not be called Fascism in the common meaning of the word.

Per Almgren

(John continues:-) And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the same category, which is ridiculous.

(Joe replies:-) ?It is "repaid", John. ?It cancels that portion of /existing/ debt charges that could not otherwise be repaid. ?Without creating ANOTHER debt charge in the process. ?It is an "accounting adjustment" carried out in the economy as a whole to more fully allow the overall costs of production to be FINANCIALLY, as well as 'physically', self-liquidating with consumption. ??(John continues:-) An independent Credit Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political decision, even if it only considered a divarication between discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

(Joe replies:-) ?I can ?generally agree with that provided it be realized this "new money" is applied to reducing prices to ?Consumers FIRST, not ?to funding other things which have additional "costs".

Regards,

Joe 

???----- Original Message -----

???*From:* John G Rawson <mailto:johngrawson at hotmail.com>

???*To:* Socred elistas <mailto:socialcredit at elistas.com>

???*Sent:* Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:07 PM

???*Subject:* RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



???For the first parts, you have valid points. ?I have never debated

???whether or not some form of price control might be necessary. But

???based on the rather inane information that had previously been

???circulated, I could not see how this particular mechanism could be

???practicable. Your new information at least clears part of that

???objection.

???Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation.. And

???yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course,

???with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns

???etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to

???link us further with anti-semitism.

???And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid

???means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the

???same category, which is ridiculous. An independent Credit

???Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into

???circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand

???inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political

???decision, even if it only considered a divarication between

???discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

???The Ottawa agreement did nothing to increase trade or spending

???power. ?All it did was to close shop against other nations. And

???one of its minor sidelines was to force us to buy useless strains

???of forest seed from you rather than the USA. The Douglas fir

???appeared to have come from somewhere inside the arctic circle,

???because the lengtrh of day effect made it bud burst far too early

???in the spring so that it got frost-burned in our much milder

???climate in the central Nth. Is. Then it hardened off about

???Christmas and ceased growing through all the warm summer and

???autumn period. ?I remember a compartment in Kaingaroa Forest

???planted with both this strain and a normal one from Washington or

???wherever. The boundary looked like a sudden cliff face as the

???canopy dropped from one to the other.The only point I was making

???over food subsidies was that we had a humanitarian government that

???helped both public health and a major industry by the use of

???debt-free credit. Rooseveldt's New Deal did something the same

???thing on borrowed money. War expenditure finallly brought us right

???out, and as a point of interest NZ (with strict import controls)

???came out of the war with zero overseas debt. (And a bureaucracy

???subsidised less healthy white floured bread, not wholemeal!)

???But the government didn't "have to" subsidise food. People were

???starving and it used one method to help them. Coming from a

???(broke, ex-serviceman's) farm, I never went hungry. But I knew men

???my age whose developmenmt was stunted for that reason.

???It seems we may have to revisit times like that before enough

???people will again consider monetary reform. in any shape, SC or other.



???John R.



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From steve at behappyandfree.com  Tue Jan 13 13:31:14 2009
From: steve at behappyandfree.com (Steve Consilvio)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:31:14 -0500
Subject: [GJM] Declaring war on carbon emissions through
	simultaneous	direct personal action
In-Reply-To: <mailman.255.1231875007.9479.discussion_globaljusticemovement.net@globaljusticemovement.net>
References: <mailman.255.1231875007.9479.discussion_globaljusticemovement.net@globaljusticemovement.net>
Message-ID: <32D42875-6A02-4770-9475-A1D36284D447@behappyandfree.com>

Consumption is consumption regardless of the purpose.  Building  
schoolbuildings have the same footprint as building homes or building  
armament factories.  A person will be in very different building, but  
they will, as individuals, all have the same 'carbon footprint' for  
food, shelter, etc.

Of course, some activities generate more waste than others.  War  
machine are built to destroy things previously built.  War has a huge  
carbon footprint, but in the end everything is about the same.  War  
reduces the number of people alive, and impoverishes others, so it  
does have an effect on reducing carbon footprints, too.  Nature abhors  
an imbalance.  :-)

Nature doesn't need our protection, we need its bounty.  War  
compresses time.  The people were going to die, and the building were  
going to collapse anyway.  Nature is trying to teach us about time.   
How to savor it.

To end war, people need to embrace faith, not dispute it.  The  
atheist's accusation that faith causes war is wrong, and is just  
another 'faith-based' accusation (even if a faith in nothingness.)   
Disputes cause war, not the content of the dispute.  Eliminate  
religion and people will fight about soccer instead, or whatever  
stupid thing fits their fancy, like carbon footprints, elections, toll  
roads, where to hang a picture, etc.

I much prefer leisure to war or to work.  Don't you?

If the world wasn't so screwed up, I could work harder at a different  
leisure.  But I am at war, as we all are; at war against ourselves and  
the false beliefs we share.

An accusation doesn't make something true; it just reveals how the  
accuser thinks.  An accusation is often a good description of the  
accuser.  Be careful of how you see others; much of it is a  
projection.  It's much better to see the good in others, so you can  
draw it out of yourself, too.

peace,
steve


On TueJan 13, 2009, at 2:30 PM, discussion-request at globaljusticemovement.net 
  wrote:

> Excuse me, Dr. Alam --  since when do ?leisure use patterns?  
> contribute more
> to carbon emissions than industrial production ? particularly that of
> manufacturing weapons of mass destruction and chemicals for  
> agricultural
> use; commercialized agricultural practices;  and  mass  
> transportation of
> goods worldwide, among other things in a list too long to publish  
> here.
>
>
>
> And, let us please look at things from a  biological and science-based
> perspective instead of a faith-based one that fails to hold water.   
> Let us
> first look to the depraved minds that dream up chemical cocktails  
> for us to
> eat and drink, and who invent the weapons of mass destruction with  
> which to
> destroy one another based on ?faith-based? belief systems in  
> conflict with
> one another.



From maryrose333 at att.net  Tue Jan 13 19:50:22 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 18:50:22 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] Shipping rates hit zero as trade
	sinks
Message-ID: <003401c975f2$dbb92850$932b78f0$@net>

More on the shipping collapse. 

-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 4:46 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] Shipping rates hit zero as trade sinks


(To change your settings or unsubscribe please go to
http://lists.riseup.net/www/info/globalnetnews-summary)

"This is no regular cycle slowdown, but a complete collapse in foreign
demand"


Shipping rates hit zero as trade sinks
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/4229198/Shipping-rates-hit-zero-as-trade-
sinks.html
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, International Business Editor
Last Updated: 5:42PM GMT 13 Jan 2009

Freight rates for containers shipped from Asia to Europe have fallen to
zero for the first time since records began, underscoring the dramatic
collapse in trade since the world economy buckled in October.
 
"They have already hit zero," said Charles de Trenck, a broker at Transport
Trackers in Hong Kong. "We have seen trade activity fall off a cliff.
Asia-Europe is an unmit-igated disaster."

Shipping journal Lloyd's List said brokers in Singapore are now waiving
fees for containers travelling from South China, charging only for the
minimal "bunker" costs. Container fees from North Asia have dropped $200,
taking them below operating cost.

Industry sources said they have never seen rates fall so low. "This is a
whole new ball game," said one trader.

The Baltic Dry Index (BDI) which measures freight rates for bulk
commodities such as iron ore and grains crashed several months ago, falling
96pc. The BDI - though a useful early-warning index - is highly
volatile and exaggerates apparent ups and downs in trade. However, the
latest phase of the shipping crisis is different. It has spread to core
trade of finished industrial goods, the lifeblood of the world economy.

Trade data from Asia's export tigers has been disastrous over recent weeks,
reflecting the collapse in US, UK and European markets.

Korea's exports fell 30pc in January compared to a year earlier. Exports
have slumped 42pc in Taiwan and 27pc in Japan, according to the most recent
monthly data. Even China has now started to see an outright contraction in
shipments, led by steel, electronics and textiles.

A report by ING yesterday said shipping activity at US ports has suddenly
dived. Outbound traffic from Long Beach and Los Angeles, America's two top
ports, has fallen by 18pc year-on-year, a far more serious decline than
anything seen in recent recessions.

"This is no regular cycle slowdown, but a complete collapse in foreign
demand," said Lindsay Coburn, ING's trade consultant.

Idle ships are now stretched in rows outside Singapore's harbour, creating
an eerie silhouette like a vast naval fleet at anchor. Shipping experts
note the number of vessels moving around seem unusually high in the water,
indicating low cargoes.

It became difficult for the shippers to obtain routine letters of credit at
the height of financial crisis over the autumn, causing goods to pile up at
ports even though there was a willing buyer at the other end. Analysts say
this problem has been resolved, but the shipping industry has since been
swamped by the global trade contraction.

The World Bank caused shockwaves with a warning last month that global
trade may decline this year for the first time since the Second World War.
This appears increasingly certain with each new batch of data.

Mr de Trenck predicts Asian trade to the US will fall 7pc this year. To
Europe he estimates a drop of 9pc - possibly 12pc. Trade flows grow 8pc
in an average year.

He said it was "illogical" for shippers to offer zero rates, but they do
whatever they can to survive in a highly cyclical market.

Offering slots for free is akin to an airline giving away spare seats for
nothing in the hope of making something from meals and fees. 



From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 14 03:23:01 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 10:23:01 GMT
Subject: [GJM] [BBC] Kucinich on the World Tonight
Message-ID: <200901141023.n0EAN1tW011884@cgiperl3.thdo.bbc.co.uk>

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/worldtonight/index.shtml

Dear All,

      Last night (Jan 13th) on the World Tonight there were among other
people a fairly "long" interview of Dennis Kucinich who clearly states
his case for monetary reform. It would be wonderful if it were to
become reality, and would make my own research easier to be taken
seriously when the key work has been done, and a future professional
website is set up in the next two, to three years, or so.

To hear the broadcast there is an archive section which can be clicked
on to hear 





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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 14 04:15:15 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:15:15 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial
	Economics..............................
Message-ID: <964646.19840.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



?? Dear Helge Nome,et al,
?
????????????? I think that Social Credit has in one sense run its course, and carries quite alot of baggage from the past.It is also to some extent out of date.?Most people as you realize have never ever heard of it even those who have been in politics for many years. 
?
Furthermore, it can be overcomplex even though basically it is very simple. As such this tends to disuade the general populace in trying to examine it to any degree, and feel inexpert in trying to criticize it.
?
?Also, one reason why it was descredited (pardon the pun if you can call it that!!) was that there was a general fear that debt-free money could lead to serious inflation, or worse. 
?
However,?many failed to realize that it already exists but it is earned money as tax which is largely spent as non-repayable grants (rather like debt-free capital which one assumes to be newly created finance). This like SC is based on accounting information of relevant public goods, and services. When "enough" tax-payer money is pumped in or rather transmitted electronically to relevant accounts it does not lead to serious inflation ofcourse.
?
My own developing project of Transfinancial Economics was independently being created without knowledge of anything about SC.. initially that is. I was very suprised that there was anything seriously similiar to it, and I found it difficult to get any sense about it from people claiming to be "experts" on the subject. Like mainstream economics there was a tendency to mystify rather than clarify. This may be due in part with the use, or "abuse" of language. We can see this all too well on the Socialcredit/elistas discussion group. 
?
Moreover, if we are to use?SC it has to be modernized to incorporate the computer age. It is rediculous to see that people talk of? money in terms of something other than electronic transmissions of vital data from one bank account to another. This is the whole key to the problem
?
??????????????? MONEY = ELECTRONIC TRANSMISSION OF DATA.
?
The above is the simple reality...full stop,end of sentence. With the right computer programming it would be possible to track virtually all transactions. If such data has to a large extent an ID as to what is being sold, or exchanged (ie. product, and serivce IDs) we gain a very accurate picture of how the entire economy of a country works plus the velocity of aggregate transactions ofcourse. 
?
We will also get a good idea as to how much new non-repayable money could be created, and transmitted electronically without the need for raising taxes for government, or indeed, most forms of fundraising for various charities, or non-profit ngos. 
?
?Businesses by law would have to register their product, and service IDs replacing direct, and indirect taxation legislation/registration. As to how such an electronic accounting system would work is not fully clear. But barcode readers used in many shops including supermarkets could be replaced, or modified (depending on model) to register changes in price?when products are sold. This data could then be transmitted to the bank, or a relevant agency of it.?
?
Ofcourse, even if we do not have the IDs of most products, and services of the economy a "blind" electronic system to some degree could be utilised as the new economic model. It would still be able to determine transactions, and their velocity if the right programming is there. Some idea of what is being exchanged could be determined too electronically.
?
At present, the bailouts, and the like are created by debt-based capital which is absurd, and criminally wrong. This is something which is difficult for mainstream politicians to fully understand, or appreciate because they have "brainwashed" by orthodox economic thinking..which incidently is also the key reason why they are loathe to nationalize the banks being "unable" to realize that these institutions?should strictly speaking be a public service rather than a private business for a plutocracy.
?
However, there may be now a serious chance of them of being put into state ownership. Fingers crossed!
?
Robert Searle.
?
?
?


--- On Tue, 13/1/09, helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: "Socialcreditlist" <socialcredit at elistas.com>, "Len Skowronski" <lmskowronski at shaw.ca>
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 2:24 AM




#yiv897821316 #yiv977366417 #yiv1170827877 .hmmessage P
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I would like to comment on some changes that have taken place in the world since the time when Douglas entered upon the world stage. 
>From reading his writings it appears that the prevailing belief at that time was that industrialization of production would lead to more leisure by an ever increasing number of people. And since you don't pay machines a wage to produce goods and services, the amount of purchasing power provided to a shrinking number of workers for producing
those goods and services would be wholly inadequate to buy them and so make continuing funds available to finance ongoing production. 
In order to deal with this problem the "leisured" class of people would be given access to free credit to purchase the excess goods and services available and, in the process, provide the required funds to maintain production. A win-win for everybody.? (I suspect Douglas had in mind the British aristocracy when he envisioned a "leisured" class of people because that was part of his experience growing up).
However, society did not develop quite the way envisioned: As affluence increased, people developed an insatiable appetite for ever more frivolous goods and services, making everybody even more busy than they were before!
As a result we now have a world that is choking in waste products from an overheated production system fueled by debt based credit (instead of free credit) where the people who made the ledger entries to create new money not only claim ownership of the stuff, but also claim interest on it for the arduous task of pushing a few keyboard buttons!
Awesome audacity. And they are actually getting away with it because most people don't understand what they are doing.
?Giving them that understanding is our job in the Social Credit Movement
Regards,
Helge



From: wmklinck at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:19:12 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Per, Social Credit has no intention of "adjusting to the realities of to-day." ?The so-called "realities" of the present are the evils which Social Credit aims to eliminate or rectify. ?Of prime concern is the elimination of both the threat and reality of the Servile State--whether it be fascist, communist, socialist, that of Keynesian debt-finance or any form of totalitarian or semi-totalitarian regime. ?As Douglas avered, we must build up from the individual and not down from the state. ?Systems were made for men and not men for systems. ?Economic policy must originate with individual consumers and not from the state. ?The ills that Douglas identified have only become more accentuated and more entrenched than when he wrote. ?Social Credit becomes more applicable with every increase in technological efficiency which displaces labor with technology and hence is even more appropriate than when Douglas began writing on the subject--which became
 known as Social Credit. ?I note that you have for some time made submissions to this group. ?The group exists to study the subject of Douglas Social Credit and anyone who contributes to it should reasonably be expected to have made a sincere and serious effort to read and understand the written works of Douglas and his close supporters. ?Would you kindly indicate to the group specifically which of those works you have read diligently so that those of the group might be informed as to your qualifications to expound on the subject. ?I am sure that you will agree that this is a fair request. 
Sincerely
Wally





On 9-Jan-09, at 2:56 PM, Per Almgren wrote:


Joe Thomson skrev:

(John Rawson wrote:-) ?Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course, with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to link us further with anti-semitism.

(Joe replies:-) ?Linking "us further with anti-semitism" would be the least of my concerns over this method of approach, John. ?You may not be aware of it, but what you are proposing is the ?building of a totalitarian "slave state", ?not a one in which "individual" freedom will be allowed to develop and flourish. ?That the "slaves" will be well fed and quartered, while they're needed, is of little consequence. ?They're still "slaves", beholden for their continued ?sustenance to "servitude" to the "State" and the "system" it imposes on them.
In my opinion this writing of "slave state" is not what John describes. My impression now is that there is to much arguing of what Douglas have expressed in a special situation in this list and I think that if Social Credit should be of any use in the future, ?it must be allowed to adjust to realities of to-day. If no new thinking is accepted, there is not much use to discuss, it would just be a seminar of history, not a forum for promoting useful ideas for practical use in the society.

This is the very antithesis of "Social Credit". ??It is "Fascism" without the more odious facets of that failed system fully revealing themselves. ?Which they soon would, if ever it were imposed. ?It is interesting that we have been duped into calling this 'anti-semitism' considering where such a policy likely originated. 
This could not be called Fascism in the common meaning of the word.

Per Almgren

(John continues:-) And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the same category, which is ridiculous.

(Joe replies:-) ?It is "repaid", John. ?It cancels that portion of /existing/ debt charges that could not otherwise be repaid. ?Without creating ANOTHER debt charge in the process. ?It is an "accounting adjustment" carried out in the economy as a whole to more fully allow the overall costs of production to be FINANCIALLY, as well as 'physically', self-liquidating with consumption. ??(John continues:-) An independent Credit Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political decision, even if it only considered a divarication between discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

(Joe replies:-) ?I can ?generally agree with that provided it be realized this "new money" is applied to reducing prices to ?Consumers FIRST, not ?to funding other things which have additional "costs".

Regards,

Joe 

???----- Original Message -----

???*From:* John G Rawson <mailto:johngrawson at hotmail.com>

???*To:* Socred elistas <mailto:socialcredit at elistas.com>

???*Sent:* Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:07 PM

???*Subject:* RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



???For the first parts, you have valid points. ?I have never debated

???whether or not some form of price control might be necessary. But

???based on the rather inane information that had previously been

???circulated, I could not see how this particular mechanism could be

???practicable. Your new information at least clears part of that

???objection.

???Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And

???yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course,

???with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns

???etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to

???link us further with anti-semitism.

???And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid

???means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the

???same category, which is ridiculous. An independent Credit

???Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into

???circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand

???inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political

???decision, even if it only considered a divarication between

???discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

???The Ottawa agreement did nothing to increase trade or spending

???power. ?All it did was to close shop against other nations. And

???one of its minor sidelines was to force us to buy useless strains

???of forest seed from you rather than the USA. The Douglas fir

???appeared to have come from somewhere inside the arctic circle,

???because the lengtrh of day effect made it bud burst far too early

???in the spring so that it got frost-burned in our much milder

???climate in the central Nth. Is. Then it hardened off about

???Christmas and ceased growing through all the warm summer and

???autumn period. ?I remember a compartment in Kaingaroa Forest

???planted with both this strain and a normal one from Washington or

???wherever. The boundary looked like a sudden cliff face as the

???canopy dropped from one to the other.The only point I was making

???over food subsidies was that we had a humanitarian government that

???helped both public health and a major industry by the use of

???debt-free credit. Rooseveldt's New Deal did something the same

???thing on borrowed money. War expenditure finallly brought us right

???out, and as a point of interest NZ (with strict import controls)

???came out of the war with zero overseas debt. (And a bureaucracy

???subsidised less healthy white floured bread, not wholemeal!)

???But the government didn't "have to" subsidise food. People were

???starving and it used one method to help them. Coming from a

???(broke, ex-serviceman's) farm, I never went hungry. But I knew men

???my age whose developmenmt was stunted for that reason.

???It seems we may have to revisit times like that before enough

???people will again consider monetary reform. in any shape, SC or other.



???John R.



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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 14 04:40:19 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:40:19 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Looking For Info
In-Reply-To: <BLU116-W381E7848E9A7626E4B2834BDD90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <772399.89694.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Tue, 13/1/09, John G Rawson <johngrawson at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: John G Rawson <johngrawson at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: "Socred elistas" <socialcredit at elistas.com>
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 9:45 PM




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Yes, Joe.? You have dodged the issue, which is what would you do to promote Social Credit, not what you would do to stop others promoting it in a way that does not meet your approval.
I believe that present state of this discussion is that any criticism of political action is completely invalid because none of the critics can suggest even the beginning of a better method. 
Regards.

John R.





From: thomsonhiyu at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:07:09 -0800
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



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How am?I? "dodging the issue", John.? You asked me specifically what would be my "first practical step to attempt to obtain a SC economy", and I told you.? 
?
Is it "practical" to try to get a so-called "Social Credit" Party elected when NONE of the ones remaining in existence today can even field a full slate of candidates?? 
?
When NONE of them can raise the kind of money it takes, or the kind of 'grass-roots' enthusiasm that is a secondary substitute, to put on a proper campaign?? 
?
And if, perchance, by some miracle of finding the modern day equivalent of a William Aberhart as your 'messiah', someone who can "fire them up", you did manage to attract a full slate of candidates, and enough donations to put on a proper campaign, and you did get elected government, what then are you actually going to "do"??? 
?
Are you going to be the "second rate experts" who figure they know enough to direct "first rate experts" in how to bring 'social credit' about?? You couldn't hope to be anything more than that, at best, since you can't even put the "ancient texts", which you don't understand in any case, in a language those "first rate experts" could either.?
?
They will do exactly as Douglas said they'd do in such a circumstance.? Make sure the 'blame' for everything that goes wrong, and there'd be plenty if you ever tried to follow the Democrats existing platform, is placed squarely where it would so rightly belong.? 
?
Regards,
Joe
?
.?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: John G Rawson 
To: Socred elistas 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 1:43 PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

You are still dodging the issue, Joe, again with your main thrust negative.? Perhaps someone else will come in with something constructive.
However, I must accept Wally's comment that this group exists to study Douglas ideas, not to promote them. 
Somehow, I can't accept that Douglas wanted us to simply make better sense of his statements, just as an intellectual (and as Per has put it, historical) exercise.? I do believe he would have liked his proposals to be put into effect. Right?
So, if political action is taboo, what practical steps should be taken to try to do this? What have been tried, and what success have they gained?
They exist, they have been tried in this country with abyssmal failure, but I want to know if anyone can suggest better. But this approach can also be an excuse for sitting on one's backside and giving nothing in the form of time, effort or money for the sake of one's fellow beings. 
Regards.
John R.






From: thomsonhiyu at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:43:48 -0800
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



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?

(John Rawson wrote:-)? NO Joe!?
Keep the theoretical vagaries for other parts of the discussion.
?
(Joe replies:-)? You can't avoid "theoretical vagaries" in any kind of a discussion involving the questions you're asking.? 

(John continues:-) What would be your first practical step to attempt to obtain a SC economy??
?
?(Joe replies:-) To forget about trying to get a so-called "Social Credit" Party elected government..? That isn't going to happen.???Anywhere.? And if it did, given the "talent" available in any of those Parties?at present it would be an even bigger disaster than it would've been when that approach was first tried..? 
?
(John continues:-)? Who would you approach, how would you do it, what would you use to get their attention and try to persuade them you were talking sense??
?
(Joe replies:-)? ?As I see it, there are probably two possible ways.? The first is to do pretty much as I think Bill Ryan might like to do.? Thoroughly analyze the "ancient texts", in light of what they might actually mean.? Which he, amongst all of us here, certanly seems to have the necessary background in 'accounting', as well as the equally necessary academic 'objectivity' to be able to do.? It is not an "easy" task.? But it is something that has to be done.? 
?
Get the knowledge contained therein?into a form in which others in 'academia' can study and test the possibilities in their own minds.? These are ?the people who will have the ear of the elected politician, whatever his Party, when that politician is under a general pressure to "do something", ?and hasn't the foggiest idea "what".? That's one way.
?
The other way is preferably done in conjunction with the above.? And it is here that the existing political Party apparatus might possibly be of some use.? Particularly if it has any ability at 'fund-raising'.? Transform yourselves into what is essentially a 'lobby group'.? Begin to popularise what is wrong with the present system, why it can't seem to deliver results we'd all like to see, and how, in very broad terms it might be made better.? 
?
This type of thing was done quite successfully by a rather nebulous 'right-wing' group here called the National Citizen's Coalition, whose efforts in no small way aided the ascention to power of the present 'Conservative' government.
?
(John continues:-)? And if you have tried to do this, what level of success did you get?
?
(Joe replies:-)? I have NOT tried to do this.? I do NOT have Bill's background in the detail knowledge of the basics necessary for proper analysis.?
?
?Nor have I any background or familiarity with the hallowed halls of "academia".? Where people are trained, or at least we suppose that they are, to "think".? 
?
All I have tried to do was some of the things?I previously mentioned,? plus,??many years ago,? before I knew any better, trying to?generate some renewed ?interest in the BC Social Credit Party.?None of those approaches were successful.?
?
(John continues:-)? In short, don't criticise unless you can demonstrate a better alternative.? Be construcrive.
?
(Joe replies:-)? Is what I've suggested a "better alternative"?? How do I know?? We're back to "theoretical vagaries".? But one thing is certain, what we have been doing is not moving us ahead towards realizing what I believe we'd all?basically like to see happen.? Other people, of course, will have their own ideas.? But if they've already been tried......? 

?
Regards.
Joe

?





From: thomsonhiyu at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:17:07 -0800
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



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?

?
(John Rawson wrote:-)? No, Joe.? Lets start at the beginning and work through.
I want factual, practical steps, not vague generalities that may or not happen. 
?
(Joe replies:-? )? Okay, I'll go back to your questions from the beginning below.
?
?
(John continues:-) Particularly not arguments based on things that do not happen. like debt-free money now.
?
(Joe replies:-)? I'm afraid this "does" happen now, John.? It's been discussed on here before in an exchange between Vic Bridger and Bill Ryan.??And at other times, when the method used was? mentioned.? Remember that not only "loans create deposits" but also the "purchase of securities" by the Banks.? 
?
As I understand it, if I remember correctly, it involves "churning" ~?the creation and sale of securities amongst the banks themselves, on which commissions are paid.? These 'commissions' then enter the money supply "debt-free", in a manner of speaking, ?as the Banks spend what they have "earned".?
?
(John continues:-)? ?And not consumers making decisions on money we haven't even decided how they are going to get it. (I mean how, not in what form or process.)
?
(Joe replies:-) The "how" is through the National Dividend and Consumer Price Discount.? What Consumers decide to do with 'their' money is up to them.? So far as the CPD is concerned, nobody "gets" anything until the Consumer decides to buy some product from a merchant who has agreed to participate in the scheme.? Then he effectively gets the product at a lower price.? 
?
The advantages to any? merchant should be obvious.? He is enabled to sell 'more' product, provided there is a 'real' demand for that product, and?increase his profit from having a greater turnover.? (He may, with that larger turnover, be even able to lower his price in competition with other merchants.)?? 
?
>From this increase in sales, there is increased economic activity.? Without 'inflation', since "existing" financial costs can then be more fully liquidated without the necessity of introducing more money in respect of things Consumers do not currently buy.? 
?
Now back to your questions.? You wrote:-
1. Some ruling body has to legislate S C proposals into reality, and,
1a. steer the programme into the right direction.
?
Yes, that would seem to me to be a job?for a Parliament, Legislature, or Congress.? 

2. (Step by step, please.) How will this be achieved? 

Obviously by having sufficient pressure applied on those who are elected to those bodies to do what is necessary.? They "yield to pressure", that is their job.? The?question here is, I think, from "where" will that "pressure" come.? 
?
Obviously if conditions deteriorate as they seem to be doing at present there will be a general pressure applied by the "public" to "do something".???To at least restore and maintain the previous status quo for the majority of those affected, or likely to be.? 
?
But that's likely as far as it will extend, in my opinion.? And 'pressure' to go beyond that is going to have to come from a source which is capable of being more "specific"? as to not only greater objectives achievable, but also the techniques by which they might be accomplished.? The question for us, I think, is to try to identify just "who" under this latter circumstance are those in office most ?likely to listen to?? 

2b. (Optional!) What has the particular correspondent done to try to achieve this aim, and how far was progress made? 
?
I think all of us who genuinely care about Social Credit and the potential it holds have done something.? 
?
Some, like yourself have tried to win elected office, or assist others to do so.??
?
Some have tried to keep the Social Credit ideas alive, to preserve and publicise the vast volume of material that is in immanent danger of otherwise being lost.?
?
Some have tried to analyze those ideas, to separate the 'wheat from the chaff', and there has been a great deal of 'chaf' to separate, and see if they do indeed hold the promise they've long seemed to, and how, practically, that promise might be achieved.?
?
Some of us have tried to explain the ideas to the public via letters-to-the-editor columns of the newspapers.? 
?
Some have tried to expound the realities and possibilities to our elected leaders and representatives, through bombarding the same with letters.? Hopefully they've been read and remembered , even if not immediately understood.
?
Others have tried to attach our ideas to other, more prominent movements.? Or better funded ones.? Often, unfortunately, ?losing many of them in the process.? 
?
I, myself, have engaged in an experiment on a regional ?"interactive" electronic News outlet.? To see if there was any interest in looking at our ideas as a solution to several problems obviously of great concern to many people here in BC.? 
?
I'm sorry to say that there isn't.? The "objectives" desired by other participants are too diffused.? Perhaps that un-named Alberta SC cabinet minister who reportedly commented that, "... Social Credit is too good for the people, " might not have been entirely wrong!
?
3. Since we can not know what is practicable until we have?"proper national?accounts", the first step must be establishmentof an independent National Credit Authority to prepare one. How can this be made totally independent and still forced to follow SC principles? 
?
Faith in your fellow man, John.? 

3a. In a constitutional monarchy, it could be separated to some extent from political control by coming under the Crown, like the judiciary. But these days Governors General are political appointees.? As are Attorneys General. Is there a problem there? Do nations without this freak constitution have an even worse problem?
?
Only they can know.? I believe the answer here is as?I said above.? 

Regards,
Joe



?
?
?





From: thomsonhiyu at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 22:41:17 -0800
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



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This is how I see it.? Lets start at the bottom.
?
"5. How will any nation repay its debt, internal and external?"? 
?
By enabling each cycle of production to be more fully financially 'self-liquidating' through the distribution to Consumers of the ND and CPD, the exponential growth of otherwise unrepayable debt is halted.? As the economy continues to grow naturally over time, with a rise in population, increased manufacturing efficiencies, etc., existing debts are reduced in proportion to it, ?and can be gradually paid off.
?
"4. Will the Credit Authority create money, or authorise some other body, treasury ior central bank, to do so?"
?
Whatever functions as a "National Credit Office" would be a purely 'statistical agency'.? It may well be that all, or most, of the relevant data is already collected by existing statistical agencies and the central banks in most countries.? 
?
It appears there is already considerable "debt-free" money injected into the economy through the so-called "open market" operations of the central bank??and trading in "repos" amongst the private banks.? 
?
One would think that there must already be some way of measuring the amount of this activity that needs to be carried on.? Perhaps not exactly, but certainly within a safe margin.
?
If this is indeed the case, there should be nothing to stop what is now injected this way at the "top" of the financial system to "trickle down", ?from being replaced with? similar sized injections as a ND and CPD at the "bottom" of it.???Through ongoing direct payments to Consumers, from whom it would "percolate up", increasing the rate of business profit with increased sales,? allowing existing loans to be more fully amortized, and needed and wanted production to be maintained.? 
?
This is one way in which Social Credit could be introduced gradually with a high degree of safety and certainty that we were indeed on the right course.? There are no doubt others, but the ones I've seen, while?often seemingly?attractive to the initiated, might prove to be far more difficult to "sell" to a sceptical public.
?
?
"4a. Will it or government decide how the money is to be spent?"
?
Neither.? "Consumers" will decide how this money is to be spent.? It is ''their'' money.? Such a 'statistical agency', which could be an adjunct to the central bank, ?(or independent from it), may well decide how much of the overall ?'money'?might best be directed towards the ND, and how much towards the CPD, ?based on ongoing observations of just what is happening in the economy.? 
?
We would expect appropriate "government" oversight from those we elect.? 
?
But just so long as those we elect as government have to get the money they're so anxious to spend "for" us, ?"from" us, we will have a chance of having a properly functioning democracy. The oft-repeated ususal anti-bank ?'monetary quotes' attributed to long-dead notables should be joined by one more:-? " Any "government" ?that's big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take everything you have."? 
?
Your other questions, John,? I cannot answer.? I have seen?several proposed 'strategies' offered by several Social Crediters for whom I have the utmost personal respect and admiration. In spite of that, I?would be less than honest if I?said I feel that ANY of them have a hope in Hell of ever working.? 
?
There has got to be an answer,?and I?firmly believe?it will only ?come in doing something we have not yet tried.? We are certainly NOT getting anywhere repeating things we have tried.
?
Regards,
Joe

----- Original Message ----- 
From: John G Rawson 
To: Socred elistas 
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:25 PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Greetings all. First, let's face it.? Douglas got frustrated later in life and became anti-semitic in some of his writings.? The fact that about 60% of Britons then would have agreed with him then has been overlooked.? It was fashionable. But we now have to live with it. It was an error on my part to mention it in passing.
Helge, what you state is right on the button.? Except that, while those who control money can also control the media, we will not get unbiassed media. When SC first went political in NZ we had to get a lawyer member to demand that our main and best newspaper accept a paid advertisement from us! I believe wartime regulations about subversive movements were cited. Our TV are the worst here, regularly running distorted and misleading material regarding monetary affairs. I presently have a formal complaint in with our Complaints Authority on one programme, and although I have given cast-iron proof that the two main points in the programme (one that banks lend money deposited with them) are wrong, it is most unlikely that it will succeed.
Joe, apologies for slightly excessive bluntness, but perhaps it stirred the debate along a bit. But you still appear confused between money issued as a debt that gets cancelled out of existence, leaving the debt,? and debt-free money issued so that when the same thing happens to it it leaves no debt behind. Yet you tacitly advocate?the latter?for a Dividend etc.
I believe our political approach has had its annual hammering, so can we please have a look at the alternative? I'll number some points so that others can quote any where they disagree without repeating the text. 1. Some ruling body has to legislate S C proposals into reality, and,
1a. steer the programme into the right direction. 
2. (Step by step, please.) How will this be achieved? 
2b. (Optional!) What has the particular correspondent done to try to achieve this aim, and how far was progress made? 
3. Since we can not know what is practicable until we have?"proper national?accounts", the first step must be establishmentof an independent National Credit Authority to prepare one. How can this be made totally independent and still forced to follow SC principles? 
3a. In a constitutional monarchy, it could be separated to some extent from political control by coming under the Crown, like the judiciary. But these days Governors General are political appointees.? As are Attorneys General. Is there a problem there? Do nations without this freak constitution have an even worse problem?
4. Will the Credit Authority create money, or authorise some other body, treasury ior central bank, to do so? 
4a. Will it or government decide how the money is to be spent?
5. How will any nation repay its debt, internal and external?? 
That's probably plenty for a while.? 
Regards.

John R.





From: thomsonhiyu at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:03:40 -0800
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



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I wouldn't disagree with any of that, Helge.? Any discussion of whether Social Credit is "anti-semitic" or not is apt to be rather fruitless, however.? Since that catch-phrase, like many others of a similar ilk, is never clearly defined.?
?
?It is as nebulous as others that have crept into the lexicon of catch-phrases in recent years.? Ones in Canada ?like "distinct-society", or "aboriginal title", or "sovereingty-association".? Or my favourite, since it's so often used in conjunction with the lumber industry here in BC, "value-added".? Try and get a concise definition on that one from any of those who are always beating their gums in advocacy of it, and all the wonders it supposedly will bring!? And if I were to give one definition, what?I believe is the only correct one, how many of those calling for "'value-added" would agree with me.
?
And so it is with "anti-semitism".? It, like those others, means different things to different people, and trying to defend Social Credit itself against such a charge is likely to be an exercise in futility unless those making the charge first define clearly what they take that term to mean.? 
?
Interestingly, those who would make such a charge always seem? reluctant to do just that.?? Perhaps they realize that just because one "philosophy" is incompatible with another, this certainly does not mean any hatred need be inherent in either.? Of course if the policy of one philosophy embodies "live, and let live", while the other posits, "you'll live just as we tell you to live, or we'll make it impossible for you to live at all", we might have a problem.
?
Regards,
Joe
?
----- Original Message ----- 

From: helge nome 
To: Socialcreditlist 
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 9:04 PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

It is unfortunate that a link appears to have been established, in the popular mind, between Social Credit and anti-semitism. That gives the bankers a tool to divide and conquer the movement, which is what seems to have happened here in Alberta during the days of the provincial Socred government. 
The power of the state should be a concern for all citizens, irrespective of the kind of government elected into office.
The best way of keeping a government honest is to have a healthy democracy where citizens take an active part in decision making by their government. And that requires an unbiased press corps and an impartial judicial system.
Money has a strange way of infiltrating all of these in a corrosive way, as evidenced by what is happening around us at this time.
Ideas which may seem to be "heretical" at first glance, in the field of economics, as in other areas of intellectual endeavour, may be deserving of a second look and further consideration before being discarded. (Remember Copernicus, Galileo and the Roman Catholic Church).
I agree with Per that we shall have to adapt to the present time and circumstances without backing away from the belief that the wealth of nations belong to the people who make up those nations, rather than the bankers who are merely the managers of that wealth, not the owners that they pretend to be.
Regards,
Helge Nome

> Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 22:56:02 +0100
> From: almgren_per at telia.com
> To: socialcredit at elistas.com
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
> 
> Joe Thomson skrev:
> > (John Rawson wrote:-) Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into 
> > circulation. And yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, 
> > of course, with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build 
> > autobahns etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a 
> > chance to link us further with anti-semitism.
> > 
> > (Joe replies:-) Linking "us further with anti-semitism" would be the 
> > least of my concerns over this method of approach, John. You may not 
> > be aware of it, but what you are proposing is the building of a 
> > totalitarian "slave state", not a one in which "individual" freedom 
> > will be allowed to develop and flourish. That the "slaves" will be 
> > well fed and quartered, while they're needed, is of little 
> > consequence. They're still "slaves", beholden for their continued 
> > sustenance to "servitude" to the "State" and the "system" it imposes 
> > on them.
> In my opinion this writing of "slave state" is not what John describes. 
> My impression now is that there is to much arguing of what Douglas have 
> expressed in a special situation in this list and I think that if Social 
> Credit should be of any use in the future, it must be allowed to adjust 
> to realities of to-day. If no new thinking is accepted, there is not 
> much use to discuss, it would just be a seminar of history, not a forum 
> for promoting useful ideas for practical use in the society.
> > 
> > This is the very antithesis of "Social Credit". It is "Fascism" 
> > without the more odious facets of that failed system fully revealing 
> > themselves. Which they soon would, if ever it were imposed. It is 
> > interesting that we have been duped into calling this 'anti-semitism' 
> > considering where such a policy likely originated. 
> This could not be called Fascism in the common meaning of the word.
> 
> Per Almgren
> > 
> > (John continues:-) And, of course, your argument that new money has to 
> > be repaid means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be 
> > in the same category, which is ridiculous.
> > 
> > (Joe replies:-) It is "repaid", John. It cancels that portion of 
> > /existing/ debt charges that could not otherwise be repaid. Without 
> > creating ANOTHER debt charge in the process. It is an "accounting 
> > adjustment" carried out in the economy as a whole to more fully allow 
> > the overall costs of production to be FINANCIALLY, as well as 
> > 'physically', self-liquidating with consumption. 
> > 
> > 
> > (John continues:-) An independent Credit Authority would assess how 
> > much new money needed to be put into circulation during the ensuing 
> > period without causing demand inflation. What that money was to be 
> > used for would be a political decision, even if it only considered a 
> > divarication between discount funds and those for a dividend. Or 
> > reducing taxation.
> > 
> > (Joe replies:-) I can generally agree with that provided it be 
> > realized this "new money" is applied to reducing prices to Consumers 
> > FIRST, not to funding other things which have additional "costs".
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Joe 
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* John G Rawson <mailto:johngrawson at hotmail.com>
> > *To:* Socred elistas <mailto:socialcredit at elistas.com>
> > *Sent:* Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:07 PM
> > *Subject:* RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
> >
> > For the first parts, you have valid points. I have never debated
> > whether or not some form of price control might be necessary. But
> > based on the rather inane information that had previously been
> > circulated, I could not see how this particular mechanism could be
> > practicable. Your new information at least clears part of that
> > objection.
> > Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And
> > yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course,
> > with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns
> > etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to
> > link us further with anti-semitism.
> > And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid
> > means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the
> > same category, which is ridiculous. An independent Credit
> > Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into
> > circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand
> > inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political
> > decision, even if it only considered a divarication between
> > discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.
> > The Ottawa agreement did nothing to increase trade or spending
> > power. All it did was to close shop against other nations. And
> > one of its minor sidelines was to force us to buy useless strains
> > of forest seed from you rather than the USA. The Douglas fir
> > appeared to have come from somewhere inside the arctic circle,
> > because the lengtrh of day effect made it bud burst far too early
> > in the spring so that it got frost-burned in our much milder
> > climate in the central Nth. Is. Then it hardened off about
> > Christmas and ceased growing through all the warm summer and
> > autumn period. I remember a compartment in Kaingaroa Forest
> > planted with both this strain and a normal one from Washington or
> > wherever. The boundary looked like a sudden cliff face as the
> > canopy dropped from one to the other.The only point I was making
> > over food subsidies was that we had a humanitarian government that
> > helped both public health and a major industry by the use of
> > debt-free credit. Rooseveldt's New Deal did something the same
> > thing on borrowed money. War expenditure finallly brought us right
> > out, and as a point of interest NZ (with strict import controls)
> > came out of the war with zero overseas debt. (And a bureaucracy
> > subsidised less healthy white floured bread, not wholemeal!)
> > But the government didn't "have to" subsidise food. People were
> > starving and it used one method to help them. Coming from a
> > (broke, ex-serviceman's) farm, I never went hungry. But I knew men
> > my age whose developmenmt was stunted for that reason.
> > It seems we may have to revisit times like that before enough
> > people will again consider monetary reform. in any shape, SC or other.
> >
> > John R.
> >
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
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From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 14 04:45:16 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:15:16 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial
	Economics..............................
In-Reply-To: <964646.19840.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <925571.73780.qm@web94908.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

?
Till such time TFE is mainstream, it is better to avoid statements about Social Credit that has supporters like Norman Kurland. Energy intensitve ecologically hostile cybernetic sytems for control of the money supply ,creation is not ecologically sustainable.Please consder carbon-neutral vision for interest-free financing.
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam
--- On Wed, 14/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial Economics...............................
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 4:45 PM









?? Dear Helge Nome,et al,
?
????????????? I think that Social Credit has in one sense run its course, and carries quite alot of baggage from the past.It is also to some extent out of date.?Most people as you realize have never ever heard of it even those who have been in politics for many years. 
?
Furthermore, it can be overcomplex even though basically it is very simple. As such this tends to disuade the general populace in trying to examine it to any degree, and feel inexpert in trying to criticize it.
?
?Also, one reason why it was descredited (pardon the pun if you can call it that!!) was that there was a general fear that debt-free money could lead to serious inflation, or worse. 
?
However,?many failed to realize that it already exists but it is earned money as tax which is largely spent as non-repayable grants (rather like debt-free capital which one assumes to be newly created finance). This like SC is based on accounting information of relevant public goods, and services. When "enough" tax-payer money is pumped in or rather transmitted electronically to relevant accounts it does not lead to serious inflation ofcourse.
?
My own developing project of Transfinancial Economics was independently being created without knowledge of anything about SC.. initially that is. I was very suprised that there was anything seriously similiar to it, and I found it difficult to get any sense about it from people claiming to be "experts" on the subject. Like mainstream economics there was a tendency to mystify rather than clarify. This may be due in part with the use, or "abuse" of language. We can see this all too well on the Socialcredit/elistas discussion group. 
?
Moreover, if we are to use?SC it has to be modernized to incorporate the computer age. It is rediculous to see that people talk of? money in terms of something other than electronic transmissions of vital data from one bank account to another. This is the whole key to the problem
?
??????????????? MONEY = ELECTRONIC TRANSMISSION OF DATA.
?
The above is the simple reality...full stop,end of sentence. With the right computer programming it would be possible to track virtually all transactions. If such data has to a large extent an ID as to what is being sold, or exchanged (ie. product, and serivce IDs) we gain a very accurate picture of how the entire economy of a country works plus the velocity of aggregate transactions ofcourse. 
?
We will also get a good idea as to how much new non-repayable money could be created, and transmitted electronically without the need for raising taxes for government, or indeed, most forms of fundraising for various charities, or non-profit ngos. 
?
?Businesses by law would have to register their product, and service IDs replacing direct, and indirect taxation legislation/registration. As to how such an electronic accounting system would work is not fully clear. But barcode readers used in many shops including supermarkets could be replaced, or modified (depending on model) to register changes in price?when products are sold. This data could then be transmitted to the bank, or a relevant agency of it.?
?
Ofcourse, even if we do not have the IDs of most products, and services of the economy a "blind" electronic system to some degree could be utilised as the new economic model. It would still be able to determine transactions, and their velocity if the right programming is there. Some idea of what is being exchanged could be determined too electronically.
?
At present, the bailouts, and the like are created by debt-based capital which is absurd, and criminally wrong. This is something which is difficult for mainstream politicians to fully understand, or appreciate because they have "brainwashed" by orthodox economic thinking..which incidently is also the key reason why they are loathe to nationalize the banks being "unable" to realize that these institutions?should strictly speaking be a public service rather than a private business for a plutocracy.
?
However, there may be now a serious chance of them of being put into state ownership. Fingers crossed!
?
Robert Searle.
?
?
?


--- On Tue, 13/1/09, helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: "Socialcreditlist" <socialcredit at elistas.com>, "Len Skowronski" <lmskowronski at shaw.ca>
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 2:24 AM




#yiv585870814 #yiv897821316 #yiv977366417 #yiv1170827877 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv585870814 #yiv897821316 #yiv977366417 #yiv1170827877 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

I would like to comment on some changes that have taken place in the world since the time when Douglas entered upon the world stage. 
>From reading his writings it appears that the prevailing belief at that time was that industrialization of production would lead to more leisure by an ever increasing number of people. And since you don't pay machines a wage to produce goods and services, the amount of purchasing power provided to a shrinking number of workers for producing
those goods and services would be wholly inadequate to buy them and so make continuing funds available to finance ongoing production. 
In order to deal with this problem the "leisured" class of people would be given access to free credit to purchase the excess goods and services available and, in the process, provide the required funds to maintain production.. A win-win for everybody.? (I suspect Douglas had in mind the British aristocracy when he envisioned a "leisured" class of people because that was part of his experience growing up).
However, society did not develop quite the way envisioned: As affluence increased, people developed an insatiable appetite for ever more frivolous goods and services, making everybody even more busy than they were before!
As a result we now have a world that is choking in waste products from an overheated production system fueled by debt based credit (instead of free credit) where the people who made the ledger entries to create new money not only claim ownership of the stuff, but also claim interest on it for the arduous task of pushing a few keyboard buttons!
Awesome audacity. And they are actually getting away with it because most people don't understand what they are doing.
?Giving them that understanding is our job in the Social Credit Movement
Regards,
Helge



From: wmklinck at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:19:12 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Per, Social Credit has no intention of "adjusting to the realities of to-day." ?The so-called "realities" of the present are the evils which Social Credit aims to eliminate or rectify. ?Of prime concern is the elimination of both the threat and reality of the Servile State--whether it be fascist, communist, socialist, that of Keynesian debt-finance or any form of totalitarian or semi-totalitarian regime. ?As Douglas avered, we must build up from the individual and not down from the state. ?Systems were made for men and not men for systems. ?Economic policy must originate with individual consumers and not from the state. ?The ills that Douglas identified have only become more accentuated and more entrenched than when he wrote. ?Social Credit becomes more applicable with every increase in technological efficiency which displaces labor with technology and hence is even more appropriate than when Douglas began writing on the subject--which became
 known as Social Credit. ?I note that you have for some time made submissions to this group. ?The group exists to study the subject of Douglas Social Credit and anyone who contributes to it should reasonably be expected to have made a sincere and serious effort to read and understand the written works of Douglas and his close supporters. ?Would you kindly indicate to the group specifically which of those works you have read diligently so that those of the group might be informed as to your qualifications to expound on the subject. ?I am sure that you will agree that this is a fair request. 
Sincerely
Wally





On 9-Jan-09, at 2:56 PM, Per Almgren wrote:


Joe Thomson skrev:

(John Rawson wrote:-) ?Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course, with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to link us further with anti-semitism.

(Joe replies:-) ?Linking "us further with anti-semitism" would be the least of my concerns over this method of approach, John. ?You may not be aware of it, but what you are proposing is the ?building of a totalitarian "slave state", ?not a one in which "individual" freedom will be allowed to develop and flourish. ?That the "slaves" will be well fed and quartered, while they're needed, is of little consequence. ?They're still "slaves", beholden for their continued ?sustenance to "servitude" to the "State" and the "system" it imposes on them.
In my opinion this writing of "slave state" is not what John describes. My impression now is that there is to much arguing of what Douglas have expressed in a special situation in this list and I think that if Social Credit should be of any use in the future, ?it must be allowed to adjust to realities of to-day. If no new thinking is accepted, there is not much use to discuss, it would just be a seminar of history, not a forum for promoting useful ideas for practical use in the society.

This is the very antithesis of "Social Credit". ??It is "Fascism" without the more odious facets of that failed system fully revealing themselves. ?Which they soon would, if ever it were imposed. ?It is interesting that we have been duped into calling this 'anti-semitism' considering where such a policy likely originated. 
This could not be called Fascism in the common meaning of the word.

Per Almgren

(John continues:-) And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the same category, which is ridiculous.

(Joe replies:-) ?It is "repaid", John. ?It cancels that portion of /existing/ debt charges that could not otherwise be repaid. ?Without creating ANOTHER debt charge in the process. ?It is an "accounting adjustment" carried out in the economy as a whole to more fully allow the overall costs of production to be FINANCIALLY, as well as 'physically', self-liquidating with consumption. ??(John continues:-) An independent Credit Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political decision, even if it only considered a divarication between discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

(Joe replies:-) ?I can ?generally agree with that provided it be realized this "new money" is applied to reducing prices to ?Consumers FIRST, not ?to funding other things which have additional "costs".

Regards,

Joe 

???----- Original Message -----

???*From:* John G Rawson <mailto:johngrawson at hotmail.com>

???*To:* Socred elistas <mailto:socialcredit at elistas.com>

???*Sent:* Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:07 PM

???*Subject:* RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



???For the first parts, you have valid points. ?I have never debated

???whether or not some form of price control might be necessary. But

???based on the rather inane information that had previously been

???circulated, I could not see how this particular mechanism could be

???practicable. Your new information at least clears part of that

???objection.

???Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation.. And

???yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course,

???with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns

???etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to

???link us further with anti-semitism.

???And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid

???means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the

???same category, which is ridiculous. An independent Credit

???Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into

???circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand

???inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political

???decision, even if it only considered a divarication between

???discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

???The Ottawa agreement did nothing to increase trade or spending

???power. ?All it did was to close shop against other nations. And

???one of its minor sidelines was to force us to buy useless strains

???of forest seed from you rather than the USA. The Douglas fir

???appeared to have come from somewhere inside the arctic circle,

???because the lengtrh of day effect made it bud burst far too early

???in the spring so that it got frost-burned in our much milder

???climate in the central Nth. Is. Then it hardened off about

???Christmas and ceased growing through all the warm summer and

???autumn period. ?I remember a compartment in Kaingaroa Forest

???planted with both this strain and a normal one from Washington or

???wherever. The boundary looked like a sudden cliff face as the

???canopy dropped from one to the other.The only point I was making

???over food subsidies was that we had a humanitarian government that

???helped both public health and a major industry by the use of

???debt-free credit. Rooseveldt's New Deal did something the same

???thing on borrowed money. War expenditure finallly brought us right

???out, and as a point of interest NZ (with strict import controls)

???came out of the war with zero overseas debt. (And a bureaucracy

???subsidised less healthy white floured bread, not wholemeal!)

???But the government didn't "have to" subsidise food. People were

???starving and it used one method to help them. Coming from a

???(broke, ex-serviceman's) farm, I never went hungry. But I knew men

???my age whose developmenmt was stunted for that reason.

???It seems we may have to revisit times like that before enough

???people will again consider monetary reform. in any shape, SC or other.



???John R.



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From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 14 04:46:19 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:16:19 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] Energy intensive ecologically hostile cybernetic systems
	are not sustainable
In-Reply-To: <964646.19840.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <469921.84973.qm@web94911.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

?
Till such time TFE is mainstream, it is better to avoid statements about Social Credit that has supporters like Norman Kurland. Energy intensitve ecologically hostile cybernetic sytems for control of the money supply ,creation is not ecologically sustainable.Please consder carbon-neutral vision for interest-free financing.
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam
--- On Wed, 14/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial Economics...............................
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 4:45 PM









?? Dear Helge Nome,et al,
?
????????????? I think that Social Credit has in one sense run its course, and carries quite alot of baggage from the past.It is also to some extent out of date.?Most people as you realize have never ever heard of it even those who have been in politics for many years. 
?
Furthermore, it can be overcomplex even though basically it is very simple. As such this tends to disuade the general populace in trying to examine it to any degree, and feel inexpert in trying to criticize it.
?
?Also, one reason why it was descredited (pardon the pun if you can call it that!!) was that there was a general fear that debt-free money could lead to serious inflation, or worse. 
?
However,?many failed to realize that it already exists but it is earned money as tax which is largely spent as non-repayable grants (rather like debt-free capital which one assumes to be newly created finance). This like SC is based on accounting information of relevant public goods, and services. When "enough" tax-payer money is pumped in or rather transmitted electronically to relevant accounts it does not lead to serious inflation ofcourse.
?
My own developing project of Transfinancial Economics was independently being created without knowledge of anything about SC.. initially that is. I was very suprised that there was anything seriously similiar to it, and I found it difficult to get any sense about it from people claiming to be "experts" on the subject. Like mainstream economics there was a tendency to mystify rather than clarify. This may be due in part with the use, or "abuse" of language. We can see this all too well on the Socialcredit/elistas discussion group. 
?
Moreover, if we are to use?SC it has to be modernized to incorporate the computer age. It is rediculous to see that people talk of? money in terms of something other than electronic transmissions of vital data from one bank account to another. This is the whole key to the problem
?
??????????????? MONEY = ELECTRONIC TRANSMISSION OF DATA.
?
The above is the simple reality...full stop,end of sentence. With the right computer programming it would be possible to track virtually all transactions. If such data has to a large extent an ID as to what is being sold, or exchanged (ie. product, and serivce IDs) we gain a very accurate picture of how the entire economy of a country works plus the velocity of aggregate transactions ofcourse. 
?
We will also get a good idea as to how much new non-repayable money could be created, and transmitted electronically without the need for raising taxes for government, or indeed, most forms of fundraising for various charities, or non-profit ngos. 
?
?Businesses by law would have to register their product, and service IDs replacing direct, and indirect taxation legislation/registration. As to how such an electronic accounting system would work is not fully clear. But barcode readers used in many shops including supermarkets could be replaced, or modified (depending on model) to register changes in price?when products are sold. This data could then be transmitted to the bank, or a relevant agency of it.?
?
Ofcourse, even if we do not have the IDs of most products, and services of the economy a "blind" electronic system to some degree could be utilised as the new economic model. It would still be able to determine transactions, and their velocity if the right programming is there. Some idea of what is being exchanged could be determined too electronically.
?
At present, the bailouts, and the like are created by debt-based capital which is absurd, and criminally wrong. This is something which is difficult for mainstream politicians to fully understand, or appreciate because they have "brainwashed" by orthodox economic thinking..which incidently is also the key reason why they are loathe to nationalize the banks being "unable" to realize that these institutions?should strictly speaking be a public service rather than a private business for a plutocracy.
?
However, there may be now a serious chance of them of being put into state ownership. Fingers crossed!
?
Robert Searle.
?
?
?


--- On Tue, 13/1/09, helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: "Socialcreditlist" <socialcredit at elistas.com>, "Len Skowronski" <lmskowronski at shaw.ca>
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 2:24 AM




#yiv585870814 #yiv897821316 #yiv977366417 #yiv1170827877 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv585870814 #yiv897821316 #yiv977366417 #yiv1170827877 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

I would like to comment on some changes that have taken place in the world since the time when Douglas entered upon the world stage. 
>From reading his writings it appears that the prevailing belief at that time was that industrialization of production would lead to more leisure by an ever increasing number of people. And since you don't pay machines a wage to produce goods and services, the amount of purchasing power provided to a shrinking number of workers for producing
those goods and services would be wholly inadequate to buy them and so make continuing funds available to finance ongoing production. 
In order to deal with this problem the "leisured" class of people would be given access to free credit to purchase the excess goods and services available and, in the process, provide the required funds to maintain production.. A win-win for everybody.? (I suspect Douglas had in mind the British aristocracy when he envisioned a "leisured" class of people because that was part of his experience growing up).
However, society did not develop quite the way envisioned: As affluence increased, people developed an insatiable appetite for ever more frivolous goods and services, making everybody even more busy than they were before!
As a result we now have a world that is choking in waste products from an overheated production system fueled by debt based credit (instead of free credit) where the people who made the ledger entries to create new money not only claim ownership of the stuff, but also claim interest on it for the arduous task of pushing a few keyboard buttons!
Awesome audacity. And they are actually getting away with it because most people don't understand what they are doing.
?Giving them that understanding is our job in the Social Credit Movement
Regards,
Helge



From: wmklinck at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:19:12 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Per, Social Credit has no intention of "adjusting to the realities of to-day." ?The so-called "realities" of the present are the evils which Social Credit aims to eliminate or rectify. ?Of prime concern is the elimination of both the threat and reality of the Servile State--whether it be fascist, communist, socialist, that of Keynesian debt-finance or any form of totalitarian or semi-totalitarian regime. ?As Douglas avered, we must build up from the individual and not down from the state. ?Systems were made for men and not men for systems. ?Economic policy must originate with individual consumers and not from the state. ?The ills that Douglas identified have only become more accentuated and more entrenched than when he wrote. ?Social Credit becomes more applicable with every increase in technological efficiency which displaces labor with technology and hence is even more appropriate than when Douglas began writing on the subject--which became
 known as Social Credit. ?I note that you have for some time made submissions to this group. ?The group exists to study the subject of Douglas Social Credit and anyone who contributes to it should reasonably be expected to have made a sincere and serious effort to read and understand the written works of Douglas and his close supporters. ?Would you kindly indicate to the group specifically which of those works you have read diligently so that those of the group might be informed as to your qualifications to expound on the subject. ?I am sure that you will agree that this is a fair request. 
Sincerely
Wally





On 9-Jan-09, at 2:56 PM, Per Almgren wrote:


Joe Thomson skrev:

(John Rawson wrote:-) ?Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course, with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to link us further with anti-semitism.

(Joe replies:-) ?Linking "us further with anti-semitism" would be the least of my concerns over this method of approach, John. ?You may not be aware of it, but what you are proposing is the ?building of a totalitarian "slave state", ?not a one in which "individual" freedom will be allowed to develop and flourish. ?That the "slaves" will be well fed and quartered, while they're needed, is of little consequence. ?They're still "slaves", beholden for their continued ?sustenance to "servitude" to the "State" and the "system" it imposes on them.
In my opinion this writing of "slave state" is not what John describes. My impression now is that there is to much arguing of what Douglas have expressed in a special situation in this list and I think that if Social Credit should be of any use in the future, ?it must be allowed to adjust to realities of to-day. If no new thinking is accepted, there is not much use to discuss, it would just be a seminar of history, not a forum for promoting useful ideas for practical use in the society.

This is the very antithesis of "Social Credit". ??It is "Fascism" without the more odious facets of that failed system fully revealing themselves. ?Which they soon would, if ever it were imposed. ?It is interesting that we have been duped into calling this 'anti-semitism' considering where such a policy likely originated. 
This could not be called Fascism in the common meaning of the word.

Per Almgren

(John continues:-) And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the same category, which is ridiculous.

(Joe replies:-) ?It is "repaid", John. ?It cancels that portion of /existing/ debt charges that could not otherwise be repaid. ?Without creating ANOTHER debt charge in the process. ?It is an "accounting adjustment" carried out in the economy as a whole to more fully allow the overall costs of production to be FINANCIALLY, as well as 'physically', self-liquidating with consumption. ??(John continues:-) An independent Credit Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political decision, even if it only considered a divarication between discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

(Joe replies:-) ?I can ?generally agree with that provided it be realized this "new money" is applied to reducing prices to ?Consumers FIRST, not ?to funding other things which have additional "costs".

Regards,

Joe 

???----- Original Message -----

???*From:* John G Rawson <mailto:johngrawson at hotmail.com>

???*To:* Socred elistas <mailto:socialcredit at elistas.com>

???*Sent:* Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:07 PM

???*Subject:* RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



???For the first parts, you have valid points. ?I have never debated

???whether or not some form of price control might be necessary. But

???based on the rather inane information that had previously been

???circulated, I could not see how this particular mechanism could be

???practicable. Your new information at least clears part of that

???objection.

???Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation.. And

???yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course,

???with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns

???etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to

???link us further with anti-semitism.

???And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid

???means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the

???same category, which is ridiculous. An independent Credit

???Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into

???circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand

???inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political

???decision, even if it only considered a divarication between

???discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

???The Ottawa agreement did nothing to increase trade or spending

???power. ?All it did was to close shop against other nations. And

???one of its minor sidelines was to force us to buy useless strains

???of forest seed from you rather than the USA. The Douglas fir

???appeared to have come from somewhere inside the arctic circle,

???because the lengtrh of day effect made it bud burst far too early

???in the spring so that it got frost-burned in our much milder

???climate in the central Nth. Is. Then it hardened off about

???Christmas and ceased growing through all the warm summer and

???autumn period. ?I remember a compartment in Kaingaroa Forest

???planted with both this strain and a normal one from Washington or

???wherever. The boundary looked like a sudden cliff face as the

???canopy dropped from one to the other.The only point I was making

???over food subsidies was that we had a humanitarian government that

???helped both public health and a major industry by the use of

???debt-free credit. Rooseveldt's New Deal did something the same

???thing on borrowed money. War expenditure finallly brought us right

???out, and as a point of interest NZ (with strict import controls)

???came out of the war with zero overseas debt. (And a bureaucracy

???subsidised less healthy white floured bread, not wholemeal!)

???But the government didn't "have to" subsidise food. People were

???starving and it used one method to help them. Coming from a

???(broke, ex-serviceman's) farm, I never went hungry. But I knew men

???my age whose developmenmt was stunted for that reason.

???It seems we may have to revisit times like that before enough

???people will again consider monetary reform. in any shape, SC or other.



???John R.



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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 14 08:30:26 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:30:26 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [CCG] The Worlds First Carbon Neutral City?
In-Reply-To: <bd7.40ed7b2e.369f4f1e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <625663.20632.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Wed, 14/1/09, MalcolmCro at aol.com <MalcolmCro at aol.com> wrote:

From: MalcolmCro at aol.com <MalcolmCro at aol.com>
Subject: [CCG] The Worlds First Carbon Neutral City?
To: ClimateConcern at yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 2:22 PM

















Masdar City is the most ambitious sustainable development in the world today - it will be the world?s first zero carbon, zero waste, car-free city powered entirely by renewable energy sources. It is part of the Masdar Initiative; a long-term strategic endeavour by Abu Dhabi to accelerate the development and deployment of clean future energy solutions. By taking sustainable development and living to a new level, Masdar City will lead the world in understanding how all future cities should be built. The City is a free zone cleantech cluster, which is already attracting the world?s best in all areas of sustainability, from renewable energy to biomass. All types of companies including innovators, incubators, research and development, pioneers and solution providers will be part of the journey to create, work and live in Masdar City.

Masdar City is more than a concept - it is happening. Phase One of Masdar City has now begun - The Masdar Institute of Science and Technology is underway and Masdar City will be home to 100 students and faculty by fall 2009. Masdar is embarking on a global drive to attract industry partners in energy and utilities fields to achieve this important objective.

Your expertise in energy and utilities will contribute to the development of a blueprint for the cities of the future.

To find out how to become a partner please visit us at www.masdaruae. com
?

Malcolm Crocker
01865 351984
Oxfordshire Climate X Change Volunteer www.climateX. org 
Join in and study climate change http://u3aclimatest udy.pbwiki. com
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 14 08:34:04 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:34:04 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial
	Economics..............................
In-Reply-To: <925571.73780.qm@web94908.mail.in2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <802769.47104.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?? Dr. Muhammad Mukhtar Alam,
???????????????? With respect, I do not think you fully understand Social Credit, and moreover I doubt whether Norman Kurland is a supporter of it as he is Binary Economist!
?
?
R.Searle

--- On Wed, 14/1/09, Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial Economics..............................
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net, dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 11:45 AM







?
Till such time TFE is mainstream, it is better to avoid statements about Social Credit that has supporters like Norman Kurland. Energy intensitve ecologically hostile cybernetic sytems for control of the money supply ,creation is not ecologically sustainable.Please consder carbon-neutral vision for interest-free financing.
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam
--- On Wed, 14/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial Economics...............................
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 4:45 PM









?? Dear Helge Nome,et al,
?
????????????? I think that Social Credit has in one sense run its course, and carries quite alot of baggage from the past.It is also to some extent out of date.?Most people as you realize have never ever heard of it even those who have been in politics for many years. 
?
Furthermore, it can be overcomplex even though basically it is very simple. As such this tends to disuade the general populace in trying to examine it to any degree, and feel inexpert in trying to criticize it.
?
?Also, one reason why it was descredited (pardon the pun if you can call it that!!) was that there was a general fear that debt-free money could lead to serious inflation, or worse. 
?
However,?many failed to realize that it already exists but it is earned money as tax which is largely spent as non-repayable grants (rather like debt-free capital which one assumes to be newly created finance). This like SC is based on accounting information of relevant public goods, and services. When "enough" tax-payer money is pumped in or rather transmitted electronically to relevant accounts it does not lead to serious inflation ofcourse.
?
My own developing project of Transfinancial Economics was independently being created without knowledge of anything about SC.. initially that is. I was very suprised that there was anything seriously similiar to it, and I found it difficult to get any sense about it from people claiming to be "experts" on the subject. Like mainstream economics there was a tendency to mystify rather than clarify. This may be due in part with the use, or "abuse" of language. We can see this all too well on the Socialcredit/elistas discussion group. 
?
Moreover, if we are to use?SC it has to be modernized to incorporate the computer age. It is rediculous to see that people talk of? money in terms of something other than electronic transmissions of vital data from one bank account to another. This is the whole key to the problem
?
??????????????? MONEY = ELECTRONIC TRANSMISSION OF DATA.
?
The above is the simple reality...full stop,end of sentence. With the right computer programming it would be possible to track virtually all transactions. If such data has to a large extent an ID as to what is being sold, or exchanged (ie. product, and serivce IDs) we gain a very accurate picture of how the entire economy of a country works plus the velocity of aggregate transactions ofcourse. 
?
We will also get a good idea as to how much new non-repayable money could be created, and transmitted electronically without the need for raising taxes for government, or indeed, most forms of fundraising for various charities, or non-profit ngos. 
?
?Businesses by law would have to register their product, and service IDs replacing direct, and indirect taxation legislation/registration. As to how such an electronic accounting system would work is not fully clear.. But barcode readers used in many shops including supermarkets could be replaced, or modified (depending on model) to register changes in price?when products are sold. This data could then be transmitted to the bank, or a relevant agency of it.?
?
Ofcourse, even if we do not have the IDs of most products, and services of the economy a "blind" electronic system to some degree could be utilised as the new economic model. It would still be able to determine transactions, and their velocity if the right programming is there. Some idea of what is being exchanged could be determined too electronically.
?
At present, the bailouts, and the like are created by debt-based capital which is absurd, and criminally wrong. This is something which is difficult for mainstream politicians to fully understand, or appreciate because they have "brainwashed" by orthodox economic thinking..which incidently is also the key reason why they are loathe to nationalize the banks being "unable" to realize that these institutions?should strictly speaking be a public service rather than a private business for a plutocracy.
?
However, there may be now a serious chance of them of being put into state ownership. Fingers crossed!
?
Robert Searle.
?
?
?


--- On Tue, 13/1/09, helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: "Socialcreditlist" <socialcredit at elistas.com>, "Len Skowronski" <lmskowronski at shaw.ca>
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 2:24 AM




#yiv1861457425 #yiv585870814 #yiv897821316 #yiv977366417 #yiv1170827877 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv1861457425 #yiv585870814 #yiv897821316 #yiv977366417 #yiv1170827877 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

I would like to comment on some changes that have taken place in the world since the time when Douglas entered upon the world stage. 
>From reading his writings it appears that the prevailing belief at that time was that industrialization of production would lead to more leisure by an ever increasing number of people. And since you don't pay machines a wage to produce goods and services, the amount of purchasing power provided to a shrinking number of workers for producing
those goods and services would be wholly inadequate to buy them and so make continuing funds available to finance ongoing production. 
In order to deal with this problem the "leisured" class of people would be given access to free credit to purchase the excess goods and services available and, in the process, provide the required funds to maintain production. A win-win for everybody.? (I suspect Douglas had in mind the British aristocracy when he envisioned a "leisured" class of people because that was part of his experience growing up).
However, society did not develop quite the way envisioned: As affluence increased, people developed an insatiable appetite for ever more frivolous goods and services, making everybody even more busy than they were before!
As a result we now have a world that is choking in waste products from an overheated production system fueled by debt based credit (instead of free credit) where the people who made the ledger entries to create new money not only claim ownership of the stuff, but also claim interest on it for the arduous task of pushing a few keyboard buttons!
Awesome audacity. And they are actually getting away with it because most people don't understand what they are doing.
?Giving them that understanding is our job in the Social Credit Movement
Regards,
Helge



From: wmklinck at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:19:12 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Per, Social Credit has no intention of "adjusting to the realities of to-day." ?The so-called "realities" of the present are the evils which Social Credit aims to eliminate or rectify. ?Of prime concern is the elimination of both the threat and reality of the Servile State--whether it be fascist, communist, socialist, that of Keynesian debt-finance or any form of totalitarian or semi-totalitarian regime. ?As Douglas avered, we must build up from the individual and not down from the state. ?Systems were made for men and not men for systems. ?Economic policy must originate with individual consumers and not from the state. ?The ills that Douglas identified have only become more accentuated and more entrenched than when he wrote. ?Social Credit becomes more applicable with every increase in technological efficiency which displaces labor with technology and hence is even more appropriate than when Douglas began writing on the subject--which became
 known as Social Credit. ?I note that you have for some time made submissions to this group. ?The group exists to study the subject of Douglas Social Credit and anyone who contributes to it should reasonably be expected to have made a sincere and serious effort to read and understand the written works of Douglas and his close supporters.. ?Would you kindly indicate to the group specifically which of those works you have read diligently so that those of the group might be informed as to your qualifications to expound on the subject. ?I am sure that you will agree that this is a fair request. 
Sincerely
Wally





On 9-Jan-09, at 2:56 PM, Per Almgren wrote:


Joe Thomson skrev:

(John Rawson wrote:-) ?Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course, with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to link us further with anti-semitism.

(Joe replies:-) ?Linking "us further with anti-semitism" would be the least of my concerns over this method of approach, John. ?You may not be aware of it, but what you are proposing is the ?building of a totalitarian "slave state", ?not a one in which "individual" freedom will be allowed to develop and flourish. ?That the "slaves" will be well fed and quartered, while they're needed, is of little consequence. ?They're still "slaves", beholden for their continued ?sustenance to "servitude" to the "State" and the "system" it imposes on them.
In my opinion this writing of "slave state" is not what John describes. My impression now is that there is to much arguing of what Douglas have expressed in a special situation in this list and I think that if Social Credit should be of any use in the future, ?it must be allowed to adjust to realities of to-day. If no new thinking is accepted, there is not much use to discuss, it would just be a seminar of history, not a forum for promoting useful ideas for practical use in the society.

This is the very antithesis of "Social Credit". ??It is "Fascism" without the more odious facets of that failed system fully revealing themselves. ?Which they soon would, if ever it were imposed. ?It is interesting that we have been duped into calling this 'anti-semitism' considering where such a policy likely originated. 
This could not be called Fascism in the common meaning of the word.

Per Almgren

(John continues:-) And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the same category, which is ridiculous.

(Joe replies:-) ?It is "repaid", John. ?It cancels that portion of /existing/ debt charges that could not otherwise be repaid. ?Without creating ANOTHER debt charge in the process. ?It is an "accounting adjustment" carried out in the economy as a whole to more fully allow the overall costs of production to be FINANCIALLY, as well as 'physically', self-liquidating with consumption. ??(John continues:-) An independent Credit Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political decision, even if it only considered a divarication between discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

(Joe replies:-) ?I can ?generally agree with that provided it be realized this "new money" is applied to reducing prices to ?Consumers FIRST, not ?to funding other things which have additional "costs".

Regards,

Joe 

???----- Original Message -----

???*From:* John G Rawson <mailto:johngrawson at hotmail.com>

???*To:* Socred elistas <mailto:socialcredit at elistas.com>

???*Sent:* Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:07 PM

???*Subject:* RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



???For the first parts, you have valid points. ?I have never debated

???whether or not some form of price control might be necessary. But

???based on the rather inane information that had previously been

???circulated, I could not see how this particular mechanism could be

???practicable. Your new information at least clears part of that

???objection.

???Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And

???yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course,

???with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns

???etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to

???link us further with anti-semitism.

???And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid

???means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the

???same category, which is ridiculous. An independent Credit

???Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into

???circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand

???inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political

???decision, even if it only considered a divarication between

???discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

???The Ottawa agreement did nothing to increase trade or spending

???power. ?All it did was to close shop against other nations. And

???one of its minor sidelines was to force us to buy useless strains

???of forest seed from you rather than the USA. The Douglas fir

???appeared to have come from somewhere inside the arctic circle,

???because the lengtrh of day effect made it bud burst far too early

???in the spring so that it got frost-burned in our much milder

???climate in the central Nth. Is. Then it hardened off about

???Christmas and ceased growing through all the warm summer and

???autumn period. ?I remember a compartment in Kaingaroa Forest

???planted with both this strain and a normal one from Washington or

???wherever. The boundary looked like a sudden cliff face as the

???canopy dropped from one to the other.The only point I was making

???over food subsidies was that we had a humanitarian government that

???helped both public health and a major industry by the use of

???debt-free credit. Rooseveldt's New Deal did something the same

???thing on borrowed money. War expenditure finallly brought us right

???out, and as a point of interest NZ (with strict import controls)

???came out of the war with zero overseas debt. (And a bureaucracy

???subsidised less healthy white floured bread, not wholemeal!)

???But the government didn't "have to" subsidise food. People were

???starving and it used one method to help them. Coming from a

???(broke, ex-serviceman's) farm, I never went hungry. But I knew men

???my age whose developmenmt was stunted for that reason.

???It seems we may have to revisit times like that before enough

???people will again consider monetary reform. in any shape, SC or other.



???John R.



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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 14 08:34:59 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:34:59 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [CCG] Happy 2009 from India
In-Reply-To: <cf6.497ed15c.369f5246@aol.com>
Message-ID: <93089.99530.qm@web27402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Wed, 14/1/09, MalcolmCro at aol.com <MalcolmCro at aol.com> wrote:

From: MalcolmCro at aol.com <MalcolmCro at aol.com>
Subject: [CCG] Happy 2009 from India
To: ClimateConcern at yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 2:35 PM







Dear friends 
Happy New Year and best wishes for 2009. 

2009 we know will be extremely challenging for the environment, with difficult times ahead. But we promise to bring you, news and perspectives on how we can all be part of the change. It is also clear that we must intensify our efforts to campaign for different solutions to be worked on the ground and to do this we must be willing to stand by our ideas and be the change itself. This is our commitment to you in this year and beyond. 

Our magazine, Down To Earth completes 400th issue this fortnight. We decided to celebrate this achievement by celebrating ?Good News?. We have, in this issue, put together a package of stories - from the fields of Andhra Pradesh where thousands of farmers are taking to the practice of non - chemical farming, to the city of Fazilka, which has banned cars in its marketplace to a colony in Bhuj, which has decided to treat its sewage itself (Check: http://www.downtoea rth.org.in/). These real life stories will give you (as they give us) inspiration to make the difference in our world. 


============ ========= ========

Editorial: 2009 is full of promise (By Sunita Narain)
============ ========= ========

I spent a week at the climate change conference in Poznan, and realized the world is in deep trouble and deeper denial. Worse, the denial is now entirely on the side of action. It is well accepted that climate change is a reality. Scientists say we need to cap temperature increases at 2?C to avoid catastrophe, which means capping emissions at 450 ppm. We know global average temperatures have already increased by 0.8?C and there is enough greenhouse gas in the atmosphere to lead to another 0.8?C increase. There is still a window of opportunity, a tiny one, to tackle the crisis.

But where?s the action? In the 1990s, when the world did even not understand, let alone accept, the crisis, it was more willing to move to tackle climate change. Today, we are in reverse gear. The rich world has realized it is easy to talk big, but tough to take steps to actually reduce emissions. The agreement was that these countries would reduce so that the developing world could increase. Instead, between 1990 and 2006, their carbon dioxide emissions increased by a whopping 14.5 per cent; even green countries of Europe are unable to match words with action.

So it was that, at the Poznan conference, rich countries aggressively pushed a new climate-tack. They cannot reduce at home, so they have decided to find every way to (1) ?offset? their fossil fuel emissions by buying emission reduction certificates in developing countries; or (2) pay to protect emission-absorbing forests; or (3) simply pump their carbon deep into the ground. Indeed, every dirty way not to cut, but to pay, bribe and cajole others to cut will do. Then if all this fails there is the easy fallback: use China and India as punching bags as well as excuses for not taking on hard reductions at home.

In Poznan the effort was to devise a mechanism to pay developing countries to ?avoid? deforestation. Why? Because the Nick Stern report said 20 per cent of the world?s emissions were from deforestation in the developing world. Now, this has become a quick-fix solution: stop deforestation and take a 20 per cent advantage in our carbon balance sheet, without doing anything at home.

As a result the mechanism, in negotiators? parlance called REDD or ?reducing emissions from deforestation and forest degradation? - naturally, in developing countries - is being built with absolutely no understanding that forests here are not mere carbon sticks to beat the world?s conscience with, or sinks for garbage carbon, but habitats of millions of people. There is no comprehension of the role forests play in a developing country?s economy or in people?s lives. Instead, the intent is misbegotten and single-minded: pay as cheaply as possible to buy rights over forests in the developing world and build as many accounting and certification procedures as possible to make sure there are no ?leakages? in the transaction. It is clearly a great business for the crashed and failed consultancy companies of the western world - creative carbon accounting, this time in the forests of the poor. So, this opportunity, which could have enjoined the
 interests of forest-economies and its people to plant, protect and manage forests so that the world would in addition get the benefit of reducing emissions, is being lost to the self-interest of greedy polluters.

But this is not enough. The world?s addiction to fossil fuel is increasing. So, at Poznan, the second move was to aggressively push for carbon capture and storage (CCS) technologies - a delicious but still experimental and expensive way to bury carbon dioxide emitted from power plants deep underground - to be used, naturally, in the developing world. Rich countries- and, interestingly, their civil society - piled on to include this technology in the Clean Development Mechanism. Now the developed world, instead of cutting emissions at home, would simply buy carbon credits to invest in this technology in the developing world. More seriously, we would become guinea pigs, for very little is still known of CCS?s risks and viability. As a Venezuelan delegate at the plenary asked, why, if this was such a great technology, was the developed world not building more CCS plants in its own backyard.

But why ask? Just look at the European Union?s much awaited climate package, tactically released on the last day of the Poznan conference. It has a grand 20/20/20 objective - 20 per cent reduction in emissions by 2020, over its 1990 levels; 20 per cent renewables and 20 per cent energy efficiency target. But what the package forgets to highlight is that 80 per cent of these targets will be achieved through ?offsets? - payments for action abroad. In all this, let us not even begin to discuss the Australian government?s gutless climate policy, ironically of the new Labour government, which came to power on a climate vote, released in the week post-Poznan.

The gloves are off. There are also no real game-changers here. Today, western media, civil society and all its well-meaning and not-so-retired climate converts (Tony Blair to Al Gore and Nick Stern and others) have all bought this position - hook, line and sinker. They are madly running around the world convincing Indians and Chinese to change their behaviours and join the game. They all don?t speak of their country emissions. They only use our black smoke as their shield.

My cynical, year-end, response is maybe Indians and Chinese should join the party and take on emission reduction targets. Best to be on the drinking side; best to be so emission-tipsy that there is little to do. We, too, could play the same non-solution: emit madly but pay and fix others to clean up.

But this is not acceptable. Let?s work on a new future, 2009 on. This is my promise.

Read this editorial online >>
http://www.downtoea rth.org.in/ cover_nl. asp?mode= 1
To comment, write to >> feedback at cseindia. org
?

Malcolm Crocker
01865 351984
Oxfordshire Climate X Change Volunteer www.climateX. org 
Join in and study climate change http://u3aclimatest udy.pbwiki. com
Now contains over 850 articles on all aspects of Climate Change__._,_.___ 
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 14 08:41:27 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:41:27 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Slumdog Millionaire..............
Message-ID: <909906.28036.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All,
?
?????????? I would highly recommend a film made in India which I saw the other day. It clearly shows the disparity between rich, and poor. In the latter case we see the long lines of slum dwellings near to, or next to buildings of the rich, and indeed, the super rich.
?
?It is lucky that most of us here on the discussion group probably ?live in the wealthy countries of the West.What we call poverty is nothing to what is had in places like India (in this case notably ), and elsewhere. 
?
?
???????????? http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AIzbwV7on6Q
?
?
Robert Searle
?
?
Robert Searle


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 14 09:16:28 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:16:28 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Davos Challenge Again!
Message-ID: <66458.52988.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All,
?
??????????? Davos again......!
?
?
?????????????????????? http://uk.youtube.com/davos
?
?
R.Searle


      
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From maryrose333 at att.net  Wed Jan 14 13:14:02 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:14:02 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: Kilowatt Cards: electricity gift cards (Not a Spam)
Message-ID: <000001c97684$a5a7ad80$f0f70880$@net>

Mary, thanks for contributing this to the Co-learner's list. 

The Annie Leonard video on this site is well worth watching 

and forwarding on to others.  It has had 4 million views. 

 

From: Mary Nelson [mailto:m_nelson at aperdat.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 10:27 PM
To: 'mary rose'
Subject: RE: Kilowatt Cards: electricity gift cards

 

This is an update of the proposal that Technocracy, Inc. made back in the
early nineteen-thirties. This was the organization (still extant at
www.technocracy.org and other places) that I once mentioned that my parents
belonged to throughout the 30s through the 60s and of which M. King Hubbert
(of Peak Oil fame) was a co-founder. I'm finding it interesting to observe
that the concept is beginning to be discussed here and there of accounting
for production and distribution of goods and services based on something
real - energy - that everything can be measured in,  rather than something
abstract like "scarcity", "enforced scarcity", or ideological values.

 

What goes 'round, comes 'round, I guess.

 

Folks can search for    "energy certificate" technocracy   as well. And have
fun.

 

MaryNelson

 

PS By-the-way, during World War II, "Technocrats" motorcaded across Mexico,
the U.S. and Canada promoting "Total Conscription: Men, Materials, Machines,
& Money" for the duration of the war. I still have a poster. Wonder if it's
worth anything in.... uh....dollars. m

 

 

  _____  

From: mary rose [mailto:maryrose333 at att.net] 
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 4:19 PM
To: FixGov at yahoogroups.com; 'Discussion Forum for Global Justice'
Subject: FW: Kilowatt Cards: electricity gift cards

 

 

For your consideration.  

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Robert Hahl <121Rhahl at kilowattcards.com>
Date: Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 4:33 AM
Subject: Kilowatt Cards: electricity gift cards
To: dustysummerrose at gmail.com



















-- 
>From the desk of 
    mary rose
    dustysummerrose at gmail.com 

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From maryrose333 at att.net  Wed Jan 14 13:14:33 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:14:33 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] The Non-GMO Project Product
	Verification Program is Up and Running
Message-ID: <000501c97684$b7892970$269b7c50$@net>



-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 10:55 AM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] The Non-GMO Project Product Verification
Program is Up and Running


(To change your settings or unsubscribe please go to
http://lists.riseup.net/www/info/globalnetnews-summary)

The Non-GMO Project Product Verification Program is Up and Running

http://aahf.nonprofitsoapbox.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&

id=653&Itemid=


The Non-GMO Project Product Verification Program is Up and Running
The governments of the US and Canada stand in sharp contrast to sixty other
countries around the world, including the European Union, Russia, and
China, by not requiring foods that contain genetically modified organisms
(GMOs) to be so labeled. They do so despite good evidence that GMOs could
have negative health implications for humans and the environment, and
despite the fact that 87% of American consumers want products that contain
GMO ingredients to be labeled.

The Non-GMO Project is a non-profit originally formed by retailers whose
customers were concerned about foods containing GMO ingredients. There are
estimates that up to 70% of processed foods on store shelves contain
ingredients from genetically engineered crops. According to Jeffrey Smith,
the author of Seeds of Deception, "Many consumers in the US mistakenly
believe that the FDA approves GM foods through rigorous, in-depth,
long-term studies. In reality, the agency has absolutely no safety testing
requirements. Instead the agency relies on research from companies like
Monsanto, research that is meticulously designed to avoid finding problems.
It's easy to understand the FDA's industry-friendly policy on
regulation of GMOs when you see the revolving door between agency
regulators and the companies they regulate. The FDA has claimed it was not
aware of any information showing that GM crops were different 'in any
meaningful or uniform way' from non-GMO crops and therefore didn't
require testing. But 44,000 internal FDA documents made public by a lawsuit
show that was a complete lie. The overwhelming consensus among the FDA's
own scientists was that GM food was quite different and could lead to
unpredictable and hard-to-detect allergens, toxins, new diseases, and
nutritional problems. It turns out that FDA scientists who had urged
superiors to require long-term studies were ignored."

The Non-GMO Project was founded on the premise that consumers have the
right to choose whether or not they consume GMOs. The adoption of the
Non-GMO Project Standard in March 2008 was a milestone, North America's
first independent third party standard for production systems designed to
avoid GMOs, available at www.NonGMOProject.org. The project now includes
CEOs and top executives from firms like Whole Foods Market, Lundberg Family
Farms, Eden Foods, Organic Valley, United Natural Foods Inc., and
Nature's Path Organic Foods. Manufacturers, processors, growers, and seed
companies are invited to enroll their products. Currently, 350 products may
carry the "Non-GMO Project Verified" seal beginning October 2009 once
they are identified as compliant with the standard. The certification
program is process-based and encompasses traceability, segregation, and
testing at critical control points.

The consumption of certified organic food-the only way now known to avoid
GMO-consumption-has become increasingly important for practitioners and
their patients with allergies, asthma, learning and behavior disorders,
chemical sensitivities, cancer, and toxic body burden. In a statement
issued in December 2000, the American Medical Association indicated that
"GM foods have been available for fewer than ten years. Food products
from more than 3000 million acres of GM plant products have been grown
globally over the past six years. Worldwide, many people are eating GM
foods with no overt adverse effects on human health reported in the
peer-reviewed scientific literature and according to regulatory agencies.
Nevertheless, long-term effects are theoretically possible."

It appears that thanks to the FDA's less-than-optimal regulation of
genetically modified food, the American public is "the experiment."
It's time to completely reform the FDA, a thorough overhaul of every part
of the FDA. The purpose www.ReformFDA.org is to persuade the American
public and Congress that a total reform of the FDA is absolutely necessary.
Visit www.ReformFDA.org to sign the petition and learn more.




From jimscarver at gmail.com  Tue Jan 13 23:21:55 2009
From: jimscarver at gmail.com (Jim Whitescarver)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 01:21:55 -0500
Subject: [GJM] Immanent Capitalism Re: Derrida - "I'll have to wonder all
	alone"
Message-ID: <f2a3ba50901132221oe82240ascceb97764227de0d@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 11:46 AM, maria odete madeira
<mariaodete.sm at gmail.com> wrote:
> "Like Nietzsche and Artaud, like Blanchot and other shared admirations,
> Deleuze never lost sight of this alliance between
> necessity and the aleatory,

Such serendipity or providence is expression of the Golden Theorem,
that what has a finite probability happens in finite time.

> between chaos and the untimely.

Murphy's Law, what can do wrong, will go wrong.

Together leading ultimately, to me, to pluralism and the law of
exceptions, that there is an exception to every law except this law.
And that the categorical imperative is not decided until the end of
time.

> ... What interests us the most is the analysis
> of capitalism as an immanent system

Immanent since capital trumps all power on earth but that of nature.
Yet there can be no plane of immanence without possible transcendence.
There is no persistently extant singularity, as Deleuze himself
proclaimed before his death, there is no ultimate immanence except
immanence itself.

> that constantly pushes back its proper limits,

Insidious in its proliferation, a thriving ecology of capital has been
pervasive, even in communist countries.  It is seemingly inescapable.
Capital and power are virtually the same thing in practice.  It
controls our commerce, industry, media and governments.  It rewrites
history and programs our beliefs.

> and that always finds them again on a larger scale, because the
> limit is Capital itself.""

It always expands the money supply to a larger scale by what means?
In the present era the banking system creates capital out of thin air
in the interest of the owners of the world banks. History shows war
has been  their primary mechanism to capitalize both sides in order to
push the proper limits of monetary expansion and expand the money
supply.

Suppose the people took control of the money supply, and took the role
of the money interests for the good of humanity.  Suppose they
employed spending to encourage activity and taxing to discourage
activity to perturb the chaordic economic system such that it tended
toward sustainable growth, freedom and an improved quality of life.
Suppose the people never pushed the proper limits of capital and
allowed capital to grow limited only by its service to humanity.
Could the bullies still dominate?
http://sites.google.com/a/monetaryreformact.org/monetary-reform-act/sustainability

The bully, in theory, does not win the evolutionary game.  Destruction
ultimately destroys itself.  The people have always had the power but
are trained to serve the money interests and to believe they are doing
right doing so.
http://WikiWorld.com/EvolutionaryGameTheory

Capitalism is now controlled pluralisticly by the money masters and
their stooges.  If we instead engineer capital that belongs to the
people and control the supply by responsible spending and taxing, how
could any force have more power than the people acting in their common
interest?   If we can engineer a bridge that will not fall down we can
surely engineer an economy that won't fall down.  If it is possible,
the bullies would lose and the people would win.

Otherwise, I fear, Derrida's foreboding is imminent, and the money
masters will always arise on a larger scale enslaving the rest of us
as lambs to the slaughter despite our feeble attempts at regulation
without the people taking control of the money supply.

> http://www.usc.edu/dept/comp-lit/tympanum/1/derrida1.html

To take effective control we need to unlearn all the wrong things we
have been led to believe we need to make new habits of pluralism in
our thinking and unity in our collective action engineered using
objective criteria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralism
http://InformationPhysics.com

Jim
http://MonetaryReformAct.org
>
> --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~


From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan 15 04:26:25 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:26:25 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial
	Economics..............................
Message-ID: <344437.67878.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?? Helge Nome is one of the Vice-Presidents of the Social Credit Party in Alberta, and has made some interesting points on TFE which are published here in the discussion group.
?
RS

--- On Thu, 15/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial Economics..............................
To: "helge nome" <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Date: Thursday, 15 January, 2009, 11:20 AM








?? Dear Helge Nome, et al,
?
?
????????????????? Yes, I am sure Douglas was right to some extent but you need to put Social Credit in the modern context of computer technology. You seem to realizes this. It is also interesting to see that you have a background in computers so you would appreciate my ideas more ?than if it were otherwise.
?
I have nothing against Social Credit per se, and it would be wonderful if the Social Credit Party could be put back on the radar again...and perhaps become a success!!
?
Good Luck!
?
Robert Searle.

--- On Wed, 14/1/09, helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial Economics..............................
To: "Robert Searle" <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 6:44 PM




#yiv266561986 #yiv1494943436 #yiv273164128 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv266561986 #yiv1494943436 #yiv273164128 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

Hi Robert,
I used to work on mainframe computers back in the sixties for Honeywell and Control Data and I am thoroughly familiar with the inner workings of a digital computer which was invented over one hundred and fifty years ago, or thereabouts. (Charles Babbage). The operation of the latest digital computer is based solidly on these principles, with many appendages and refinements.
I look upon Social Credit in the same way: The foundation for the theory is perfectly solid and relevant to today's
economy. I think that is why Douglas was so badly vilified and demonized by the powers-that-be: He was right and they couldn't afford to have too many people come to that conclusion.
Within any movement, there is a spectrum of people ranging from the "practical politicians" to the "High Priests". The very fact that Social Credit has been around for almost 100 years attests to its ongoing appeal to large numbers of people.
During the nineteen thirties it became almost a religion here in Alberta with meetings and study groups all over the country side.
?We are now actively preparing ourselves, within the Social Credit Party, for a huge resurgence in interest in about one year's time.
Regards,
Helge
Check out my blog: http://helgenome.blogspot.com where I focus on developments in the Middle East












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From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 15 04:33:35 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:03:35 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] Carbon Neutral TFE with usury free debts !!!
In-Reply-To: <802769.47104.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <762031.34902.qm@web94907.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Dear Robert,
?
What I understand to be common thread is the creation of interest free money. Debt free money is not always possible as some like to get the money back and it is not possible alsways to forgive. Debt has to be freed from usury.I understand when debt free money is talked about, it is assumed that it is the usurious debt free money that I has in mind. That is reason, I also appreciate the call for usurious debt free money. David Moosa Pidcock is for debt free money.
?
Considering the visions of energy security and then the linkage of green house gas emissions with the fossil fuel based energy, it is not possible to envision an ecologically sustainable monetary transation system with programmes for inflation controls. Therefore there is a need to envision carbon neutral systems for transaction of value. For supporters of barter, there is no need for this as well as the local economies in the mountains and remote regions do not have much value even for paper currency.
?
You may have notices that I like to take up the commons across the approaches and therefore , respecting your proposition for interest free money and ecological safety, I seek taking up on the commons in SC approach rather than discrediting the people associated with SC movement. I stand corrected on Norman Kurland.

With best wishes and regards
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam
--- On Wed, 14/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial Economics...............................
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:04 PM







?? Dr. Muhammad Mukhtar Alam,
???????????????? With respect, I do not think you fully understand Social Credit, and moreover I doubt whether Norman Kurland is a supporter of it as he is Binary Economist!
?
?
R.Searle

--- On Wed, 14/1/09, Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial Economics...............................
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net, dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 11:45 AM







?
Till such time TFE is mainstream, it is better to avoid statements about Social Credit that has supporters like Norman Kurland. Energy intensitve ecologically hostile cybernetic sytems for control of the money supply ,creation is not ecologically sustainable.Please consder carbon-neutral vision for interest-free financing.
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam
--- On Wed, 14/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial Economics................................
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 4:45 PM









?? Dear Helge Nome,et al,
?
????????????? I think that Social Credit has in one sense run its course, and carries quite alot of baggage from the past.It is also to some extent out of date.?Most people as you realize have never ever heard of it even those who have been in politics for many years. 
?
Furthermore, it can be overcomplex even though basically it is very simple. As such this tends to disuade the general populace in trying to examine it to any degree, and feel inexpert in trying to criticize it.
?
?Also, one reason why it was descredited (pardon the pun if you can call it that!!) was that there was a general fear that debt-free money could lead to serious inflation, or worse. 
?
However,?many failed to realize that it already exists but it is earned money as tax which is largely spent as non-repayable grants (rather like debt-free capital which one assumes to be newly created finance). This like SC is based on accounting information of relevant public goods, and services. When "enough" tax-payer money is pumped in or rather transmitted electronically to relevant accounts it does not lead to serious inflation ofcourse.
?
My own developing project of Transfinancial Economics was independently being created without knowledge of anything about SC.. initially that is. I was very suprised that there was anything seriously similiar to it, and I found it difficult to get any sense about it from people claiming to be "experts" on the subject. Like mainstream economics there was a tendency to mystify rather than clarify. This may be due in part with the use, or "abuse" of language. We can see this all too well on the Socialcredit/elistas discussion group. 
?
Moreover, if we are to use?SC it has to be modernized to incorporate the computer age. It is rediculous to see that people talk of? money in terms of something other than electronic transmissions of vital data from one bank account to another. This is the whole key to the problem
?
??????????????? MONEY = ELECTRONIC TRANSMISSION OF DATA.
?
The above is the simple reality...full stop,end of sentence. With the right computer programming it would be possible to track virtually all transactions. If such data has to a large extent an ID as to what is being sold, or exchanged (ie. product, and serivce IDs) we gain a very accurate picture of how the entire economy of a country works plus the velocity of aggregate transactions ofcourse. 
?
We will also get a good idea as to how much new non-repayable money could be created, and transmitted electronically without the need for raising taxes for government, or indeed, most forms of fundraising for various charities, or non-profit ngos. 
?
?Businesses by law would have to register their product, and service IDs replacing direct, and indirect taxation legislation/registration. As to how such an electronic accounting system would work is not fully clear.. But barcode readers used in many shops including supermarkets could be replaced, or modified (depending on model) to register changes in price?when products are sold. This data could then be transmitted to the bank, or a relevant agency of it.?
?
Ofcourse, even if we do not have the IDs of most products, and services of the economy a "blind" electronic system to some degree could be utilised as the new economic model. It would still be able to determine transactions, and their velocity if the right programming is there. Some idea of what is being exchanged could be determined too electronically.
?
At present, the bailouts, and the like are created by debt-based capital which is absurd, and criminally wrong. This is something which is difficult for mainstream politicians to fully understand, or appreciate because they have "brainwashed" by orthodox economic thinking..which incidently is also the key reason why they are loathe to nationalize the banks being "unable" to realize that these institutions?should strictly speaking be a public service rather than a private business for a plutocracy.
?
However, there may be now a serious chance of them of being put into state ownership. Fingers crossed!
?
Robert Searle.
?
?
?


--- On Tue, 13/1/09, helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: "Socialcreditlist" <socialcredit at elistas.com>, "Len Skowronski" <lmskowronski at shaw.ca>
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 2:24 AM




#yiv1936973370 #yiv1861457425 #yiv585870814 #yiv897821316 #yiv977366417 #yiv1170827877 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv1936973370 #yiv1861457425 #yiv585870814 #yiv897821316 #yiv977366417 #yiv1170827877 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

I would like to comment on some changes that have taken place in the world since the time when Douglas entered upon the world stage. 
>From reading his writings it appears that the prevailing belief at that time was that industrialization of production would lead to more leisure by an ever increasing number of people. And since you don't pay machines a wage to produce goods and services, the amount of purchasing power provided to a shrinking number of workers for producing
those goods and services would be wholly inadequate to buy them and so make continuing funds available to finance ongoing production. 
In order to deal with this problem the "leisured" class of people would be given access to free credit to purchase the excess goods and services available and, in the process, provide the required funds to maintain production.. A win-win for everybody.? (I suspect Douglas had in mind the British aristocracy when he envisioned a "leisured" class of people because that was part of his experience growing up).
However, society did not develop quite the way envisioned: As affluence increased, people developed an insatiable appetite for ever more frivolous goods and services, making everybody even more busy than they were before!
As a result we now have a world that is choking in waste products from an overheated production system fueled by debt based credit (instead of free credit) where the people who made the ledger entries to create new money not only claim ownership of the stuff, but also claim interest on it for the arduous task of pushing a few keyboard buttons!
Awesome audacity. And they are actually getting away with it because most people don't understand what they are doing.
?Giving them that understanding is our job in the Social Credit Movement
Regards,
Helge



From: wmklinck at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:19:12 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Per, Social Credit has no intention of "adjusting to the realities of to-day." ?The so-called "realities" of the present are the evils which Social Credit aims to eliminate or rectify. ?Of prime concern is the elimination of both the threat and reality of the Servile State--whether it be fascist, communist, socialist, that of Keynesian debt-finance or any form of totalitarian or semi-totalitarian regime. ?As Douglas avered, we must build up from the individual and not down from the state. ?Systems were made for men and not men for systems. ?Economic policy must originate with individual consumers and not from the state. ?The ills that Douglas identified have only become more accentuated and more entrenched than when he wrote. ?Social Credit becomes more applicable with every increase in technological efficiency which displaces labor with technology and hence is even more appropriate than when Douglas began writing on the subject--which became
 known as Social Credit. ?I note that you have for some time made submissions to this group. ?The group exists to study the subject of Douglas Social Credit and anyone who contributes to it should reasonably be expected to have made a sincere and serious effort to read and understand the written works of Douglas and his close supporters.. ?Would you kindly indicate to the group specifically which of those works you have read diligently so that those of the group might be informed as to your qualifications to expound on the subject. ?I am sure that you will agree that this is a fair request. 
Sincerely
Wally





On 9-Jan-09, at 2:56 PM, Per Almgren wrote:


Joe Thomson skrev:

(John Rawson wrote:-) ?Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course, with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to link us further with anti-semitism.

(Joe replies:-) ?Linking "us further with anti-semitism" would be the least of my concerns over this method of approach, John. ?You may not be aware of it, but what you are proposing is the ?building of a totalitarian "slave state", ?not a one in which "individual" freedom will be allowed to develop and flourish. ?That the "slaves" will be well fed and quartered, while they're needed, is of little consequence. ?They're still "slaves", beholden for their continued ?sustenance to "servitude" to the "State" and the "system" it imposes on them.
In my opinion this writing of "slave state" is not what John describes. My impression now is that there is to much arguing of what Douglas have expressed in a special situation in this list and I think that if Social Credit should be of any use in the future, ?it must be allowed to adjust to realities of to-day. If no new thinking is accepted, there is not much use to discuss, it would just be a seminar of history, not a forum for promoting useful ideas for practical use in the society.

This is the very antithesis of "Social Credit". ??It is "Fascism" without the more odious facets of that failed system fully revealing themselves. ?Which they soon would, if ever it were imposed. ?It is interesting that we have been duped into calling this 'anti-semitism' considering where such a policy likely originated. 
This could not be called Fascism in the common meaning of the word.

Per Almgren

(John continues:-) And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the same category, which is ridiculous.

(Joe replies:-) ?It is "repaid", John. ?It cancels that portion of /existing/ debt charges that could not otherwise be repaid. ?Without creating ANOTHER debt charge in the process. ?It is an "accounting adjustment" carried out in the economy as a whole to more fully allow the overall costs of production to be FINANCIALLY, as well as 'physically', self-liquidating with consumption. ??(John continues:-) An independent Credit Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political decision, even if it only considered a divarication between discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

(Joe replies:-) ?I can ?generally agree with that provided it be realized this "new money" is applied to reducing prices to ?Consumers FIRST, not ?to funding other things which have additional "costs".

Regards,

Joe 

???----- Original Message -----

???*From:* John G Rawson <mailto:johngrawson at hotmail.com>

???*To:* Socred elistas <mailto:socialcredit at elistas.com>

???*Sent:* Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:07 PM

???*Subject:* RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



???For the first parts, you have valid points. ?I have never debated

???whether or not some form of price control might be necessary. But

???based on the rather inane information that had previously been

???circulated, I could not see how this particular mechanism could be

???practicable. Your new information at least clears part of that

???objection.

???Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation.. And

???yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course,

???with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns

???etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to

???link us further with anti-semitism.

???And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid

???means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the

???same category, which is ridiculous. An independent Credit

???Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into

???circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand

???inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political

???decision, even if it only considered a divarication between

???discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

???The Ottawa agreement did nothing to increase trade or spending

???power. ?All it did was to close shop against other nations. And

???one of its minor sidelines was to force us to buy useless strains

???of forest seed from you rather than the USA. The Douglas fir

???appeared to have come from somewhere inside the arctic circle,

???because the lengtrh of day effect made it bud burst far too early

???in the spring so that it got frost-burned in our much milder

???climate in the central Nth. Is. Then it hardened off about

???Christmas and ceased growing through all the warm summer and

???autumn period. ?I remember a compartment in Kaingaroa Forest

???planted with both this strain and a normal one from Washington or

???wherever. The boundary looked like a sudden cliff face as the

???canopy dropped from one to the other.The only point I was making

???over food subsidies was that we had a humanitarian government that

???helped both public health and a major industry by the use of

???debt-free credit. Rooseveldt's New Deal did something the same

???thing on borrowed money. War expenditure finallly brought us right

???out, and as a point of interest NZ (with strict import controls)

???came out of the war with zero overseas debt. (And a bureaucracy

???subsidised less healthy white floured bread, not wholemeal!)

???But the government didn't "have to" subsidise food. People were

???starving and it used one method to help them. Coming from a

???(broke, ex-serviceman's) farm, I never went hungry. But I knew men

???my age whose developmenmt was stunted for that reason.

???It seems we may have to revisit times like that before enough

???people will again consider monetary reform. in any shape, SC or other.



???John R.



---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email wmklinck at shaw.ca
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
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You're subscribed to this list with the email helgenome at hotmail.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit






---------------------------------------------------------------------
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From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 15 04:34:08 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:04:08 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] Carbon Neutral TFE with usury free debts !!!
In-Reply-To: <802769.47104.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <782097.55314.qm@web94905.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Dear Robert,
?
What I understand to be common thread is the creation of interest free money. Debt free money is not always possible as some like to get the money back and it is not possible alsways to forgive. Debt has to be freed from usury.I understand when debt free money is talked about, it is assumed that it is the usurious debt free money that I has in mind. That is reason, I also appreciate the call for usurious debt free money. David Moosa Pidcock is for debt free money.
?
Considering the visions of energy security and then the linkage of green house gas emissions with the fossil fuel based energy, it is not possible to envision an ecologically sustainable monetary transation system with programmes for inflation controls. Therefore there is a need to envision carbon neutral systems for transaction of value. For supporters of barter, there is no need for this as well as the local economies in the mountains and remote regions do not have much value even for paper currency.
?
You may have notices that I like to take up the commons across the approaches and therefore , respecting your proposition for interest free money and ecological safety, I seek taking up on the commons in SC approach rather than discrediting the people associated with SC movement. I stand corrected on Norman Kurland.

With best wishes and regards
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam
--- On Wed, 14/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial Economics...............................
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:04 PM







?? Dr. Muhammad Mukhtar Alam,
???????????????? With respect, I do not think you fully understand Social Credit, and moreover I doubt whether Norman Kurland is a supporter of it as he is Binary Economist!
?
?
R.Searle

--- On Wed, 14/1/09, Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial Economics...............................
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net, dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 11:45 AM







?
Till such time TFE is mainstream, it is better to avoid statements about Social Credit that has supporters like Norman Kurland. Energy intensitve ecologically hostile cybernetic sytems for control of the money supply ,creation is not ecologically sustainable.Please consder carbon-neutral vision for interest-free financing.
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam
--- On Wed, 14/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial Economics................................
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 4:45 PM









?? Dear Helge Nome,et al,
?
????????????? I think that Social Credit has in one sense run its course, and carries quite alot of baggage from the past.It is also to some extent out of date.?Most people as you realize have never ever heard of it even those who have been in politics for many years. 
?
Furthermore, it can be overcomplex even though basically it is very simple. As such this tends to disuade the general populace in trying to examine it to any degree, and feel inexpert in trying to criticize it.
?
?Also, one reason why it was descredited (pardon the pun if you can call it that!!) was that there was a general fear that debt-free money could lead to serious inflation, or worse. 
?
However,?many failed to realize that it already exists but it is earned money as tax which is largely spent as non-repayable grants (rather like debt-free capital which one assumes to be newly created finance). This like SC is based on accounting information of relevant public goods, and services. When "enough" tax-payer money is pumped in or rather transmitted electronically to relevant accounts it does not lead to serious inflation ofcourse.
?
My own developing project of Transfinancial Economics was independently being created without knowledge of anything about SC.. initially that is. I was very suprised that there was anything seriously similiar to it, and I found it difficult to get any sense about it from people claiming to be "experts" on the subject. Like mainstream economics there was a tendency to mystify rather than clarify. This may be due in part with the use, or "abuse" of language. We can see this all too well on the Socialcredit/elistas discussion group. 
?
Moreover, if we are to use?SC it has to be modernized to incorporate the computer age. It is rediculous to see that people talk of? money in terms of something other than electronic transmissions of vital data from one bank account to another. This is the whole key to the problem
?
??????????????? MONEY = ELECTRONIC TRANSMISSION OF DATA.
?
The above is the simple reality...full stop,end of sentence. With the right computer programming it would be possible to track virtually all transactions. If such data has to a large extent an ID as to what is being sold, or exchanged (ie. product, and serivce IDs) we gain a very accurate picture of how the entire economy of a country works plus the velocity of aggregate transactions ofcourse. 
?
We will also get a good idea as to how much new non-repayable money could be created, and transmitted electronically without the need for raising taxes for government, or indeed, most forms of fundraising for various charities, or non-profit ngos. 
?
?Businesses by law would have to register their product, and service IDs replacing direct, and indirect taxation legislation/registration. As to how such an electronic accounting system would work is not fully clear.. But barcode readers used in many shops including supermarkets could be replaced, or modified (depending on model) to register changes in price?when products are sold. This data could then be transmitted to the bank, or a relevant agency of it.?
?
Ofcourse, even if we do not have the IDs of most products, and services of the economy a "blind" electronic system to some degree could be utilised as the new economic model. It would still be able to determine transactions, and their velocity if the right programming is there. Some idea of what is being exchanged could be determined too electronically.
?
At present, the bailouts, and the like are created by debt-based capital which is absurd, and criminally wrong. This is something which is difficult for mainstream politicians to fully understand, or appreciate because they have "brainwashed" by orthodox economic thinking..which incidently is also the key reason why they are loathe to nationalize the banks being "unable" to realize that these institutions?should strictly speaking be a public service rather than a private business for a plutocracy.
?
However, there may be now a serious chance of them of being put into state ownership. Fingers crossed!
?
Robert Searle.
?
?
?


--- On Tue, 13/1/09, helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: "Socialcreditlist" <socialcredit at elistas.com>, "Len Skowronski" <lmskowronski at shaw.ca>
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 2:24 AM




#yiv1936973370 #yiv1861457425 #yiv585870814 #yiv897821316 #yiv977366417 #yiv1170827877 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv1936973370 #yiv1861457425 #yiv585870814 #yiv897821316 #yiv977366417 #yiv1170827877 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

I would like to comment on some changes that have taken place in the world since the time when Douglas entered upon the world stage. 
>From reading his writings it appears that the prevailing belief at that time was that industrialization of production would lead to more leisure by an ever increasing number of people. And since you don't pay machines a wage to produce goods and services, the amount of purchasing power provided to a shrinking number of workers for producing
those goods and services would be wholly inadequate to buy them and so make continuing funds available to finance ongoing production. 
In order to deal with this problem the "leisured" class of people would be given access to free credit to purchase the excess goods and services available and, in the process, provide the required funds to maintain production.. A win-win for everybody.? (I suspect Douglas had in mind the British aristocracy when he envisioned a "leisured" class of people because that was part of his experience growing up).
However, society did not develop quite the way envisioned: As affluence increased, people developed an insatiable appetite for ever more frivolous goods and services, making everybody even more busy than they were before!
As a result we now have a world that is choking in waste products from an overheated production system fueled by debt based credit (instead of free credit) where the people who made the ledger entries to create new money not only claim ownership of the stuff, but also claim interest on it for the arduous task of pushing a few keyboard buttons!
Awesome audacity. And they are actually getting away with it because most people don't understand what they are doing.
?Giving them that understanding is our job in the Social Credit Movement
Regards,
Helge



From: wmklinck at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:19:12 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Per, Social Credit has no intention of "adjusting to the realities of to-day." ?The so-called "realities" of the present are the evils which Social Credit aims to eliminate or rectify. ?Of prime concern is the elimination of both the threat and reality of the Servile State--whether it be fascist, communist, socialist, that of Keynesian debt-finance or any form of totalitarian or semi-totalitarian regime. ?As Douglas avered, we must build up from the individual and not down from the state. ?Systems were made for men and not men for systems. ?Economic policy must originate with individual consumers and not from the state. ?The ills that Douglas identified have only become more accentuated and more entrenched than when he wrote. ?Social Credit becomes more applicable with every increase in technological efficiency which displaces labor with technology and hence is even more appropriate than when Douglas began writing on the subject--which became
 known as Social Credit. ?I note that you have for some time made submissions to this group. ?The group exists to study the subject of Douglas Social Credit and anyone who contributes to it should reasonably be expected to have made a sincere and serious effort to read and understand the written works of Douglas and his close supporters.. ?Would you kindly indicate to the group specifically which of those works you have read diligently so that those of the group might be informed as to your qualifications to expound on the subject. ?I am sure that you will agree that this is a fair request. 
Sincerely
Wally





On 9-Jan-09, at 2:56 PM, Per Almgren wrote:


Joe Thomson skrev:

(John Rawson wrote:-) ?Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course, with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to link us further with anti-semitism.

(Joe replies:-) ?Linking "us further with anti-semitism" would be the least of my concerns over this method of approach, John. ?You may not be aware of it, but what you are proposing is the ?building of a totalitarian "slave state", ?not a one in which "individual" freedom will be allowed to develop and flourish. ?That the "slaves" will be well fed and quartered, while they're needed, is of little consequence. ?They're still "slaves", beholden for their continued ?sustenance to "servitude" to the "State" and the "system" it imposes on them.
In my opinion this writing of "slave state" is not what John describes. My impression now is that there is to much arguing of what Douglas have expressed in a special situation in this list and I think that if Social Credit should be of any use in the future, ?it must be allowed to adjust to realities of to-day. If no new thinking is accepted, there is not much use to discuss, it would just be a seminar of history, not a forum for promoting useful ideas for practical use in the society.

This is the very antithesis of "Social Credit". ??It is "Fascism" without the more odious facets of that failed system fully revealing themselves. ?Which they soon would, if ever it were imposed. ?It is interesting that we have been duped into calling this 'anti-semitism' considering where such a policy likely originated. 
This could not be called Fascism in the common meaning of the word.

Per Almgren

(John continues:-) And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the same category, which is ridiculous.

(Joe replies:-) ?It is "repaid", John. ?It cancels that portion of /existing/ debt charges that could not otherwise be repaid. ?Without creating ANOTHER debt charge in the process. ?It is an "accounting adjustment" carried out in the economy as a whole to more fully allow the overall costs of production to be FINANCIALLY, as well as 'physically', self-liquidating with consumption. ??(John continues:-) An independent Credit Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political decision, even if it only considered a divarication between discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

(Joe replies:-) ?I can ?generally agree with that provided it be realized this "new money" is applied to reducing prices to ?Consumers FIRST, not ?to funding other things which have additional "costs".

Regards,

Joe 

???----- Original Message -----

???*From:* John G Rawson <mailto:johngrawson at hotmail.com>

???*To:* Socred elistas <mailto:socialcredit at elistas.com>

???*Sent:* Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:07 PM

???*Subject:* RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



???For the first parts, you have valid points. ?I have never debated

???whether or not some form of price control might be necessary. But

???based on the rather inane information that had previously been

???circulated, I could not see how this particular mechanism could be

???practicable. Your new information at least clears part of that

???objection.

???Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation.. And

???yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course,

???with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns

???etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to

???link us further with anti-semitism.

???And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid

???means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the

???same category, which is ridiculous. An independent Credit

???Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into

???circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand

???inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political

???decision, even if it only considered a divarication between

???discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

???The Ottawa agreement did nothing to increase trade or spending

???power. ?All it did was to close shop against other nations. And

???one of its minor sidelines was to force us to buy useless strains

???of forest seed from you rather than the USA. The Douglas fir

???appeared to have come from somewhere inside the arctic circle,

???because the lengtrh of day effect made it bud burst far too early

???in the spring so that it got frost-burned in our much milder

???climate in the central Nth. Is. Then it hardened off about

???Christmas and ceased growing through all the warm summer and

???autumn period. ?I remember a compartment in Kaingaroa Forest

???planted with both this strain and a normal one from Washington or

???wherever. The boundary looked like a sudden cliff face as the

???canopy dropped from one to the other.The only point I was making

???over food subsidies was that we had a humanitarian government that

???helped both public health and a major industry by the use of

???debt-free credit. Rooseveldt's New Deal did something the same

???thing on borrowed money. War expenditure finallly brought us right

???out, and as a point of interest NZ (with strict import controls)

???came out of the war with zero overseas debt. (And a bureaucracy

???subsidised less healthy white floured bread, not wholemeal!)

???But the government didn't "have to" subsidise food. People were

???starving and it used one method to help them. Coming from a

???(broke, ex-serviceman's) farm, I never went hungry. But I knew men

???my age whose developmenmt was stunted for that reason.

???It seems we may have to revisit times like that before enough

???people will again consider monetary reform. in any shape, SC or other.



???John R.



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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan 15 06:48:25 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:48:25 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Carbon Neutral TFE with usury free debts !!! Get It Right
	about TFE!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <762031.34902.qm@web94907.mail.in2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <45664.42388.qm@web27402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Thu, 15/1/09, Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [GJM] Carbon Neutral TFE with usury free debts !!!
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net, dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Thursday, 15 January, 2009, 11:33 AM







Dear Robert,
?
What I understand to be common thread is the creation of interest free money. Debt free money is not always possible as some like to get the money back and it is not possible alsways to forgive. Debt has to be freed from usury.I understand when debt free money is talked about, it is assumed that it is the usurious debt free money that I has in mind. That is reason, I also appreciate the call for usurious debt free money. David Moosa Pidcock is for debt free money.
?
Answer. Obviously you are confused. I will try, and make it simple. There are two types of money discussed here.
?
?
i) Interest-Free Money. This is capital which is repayable as a loan. Most of the people like yourself are concerned with it being free of interest. It is?created electronically by banks. 
?
ii) Debt-Free Money. This is capital which is NON-REPAYABLE. It is rather like a grant. Governments produce this, and is spent into the economy. TFE is mainly concerned with debt-free money. But interest-free capital or credit plays a part in the scheme of things until society is ready for capital being purely debt-free...though it could be electronically monitored in? many cases possibly.
?
?
?
Considering the visions of energy security and then the linkage of green house gas emissions with the fossil fuel based energy, it is not possible to envision an ecologically sustainable monetary transation system with programmes for inflation controls. Therefore there is a need to envision carbon neutral systems for transaction of value. For supporters of barter, there is no need for this as well as the local economies in the mountains and remote regions do not have much value even for paper currency.
?
?
Answer. The programmes for inflation controls ARE ONLY USED AS LAST RESORT. My views on this matter have changed, and revelant material has to be changed too where possible. It is highly unlikely that they ?will NOT be used ..if at all. The reason being that our understanding of how the economy works electronically would be such as to preclude any possibility of any transmission of new non-repayable money (ie.debt-free) being "too inflationary". This would be largely worked out by specific computer programming before the transmission of new capital. 
?
?Ofcourse, as is happening with the bank bailouts, and certain commercial aid ?it is possible to have a rough estimate of how much new money could be injected or rather transmitted into the economy without any fear of serious inflation. In other words, enough can be created successfully. However, in TFE it is possible to produce the maximun where, and when necessary after certain electronic inflation checks of the "entire" econnomy are undertaken at a click of a button.
?
The other thing we need to realize is that the bank bailouts, and certain financial aid is that this money is a loan repayable curtesy of the taxpayer. This ofcourse this is ABSURD especially when it has been created at a click of button, and will probably not lead to serious inflation. In other words, the money on moral grounds should be DEBT-FREE, or NON-REPAYABLE. 
?
All this to me is simple in extremis. Even an economist, and politician would be able to understand it!!!
?
?
?
You may have notices that I like to take up the commons across the approaches and therefore , respecting your proposition for interest free money and ecological safety, I seek taking up on the commons in SC approach rather than discrediting the people associated with SC movement. I stand corrected on Norman Kurland.
?
?
I am NOT trying to discredit anybody in the SC "movement"or indeed, SC as such! All I have been doing is showing the way to a more advanced, and more modern approach towards economics.

With best wishes and regards
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam
--- On Wed, 14/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial Economics...............................
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:04 PM







?? Dr. Muhammad Mukhtar Alam,
???????????????? With respect, I do not think you fully understand Social Credit, and moreover I doubt whether Norman Kurland is a supporter of it as he is Binary Economist!
?
?
R.Searle

--- On Wed, 14/1/09, Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial Economics..............................
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net, dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 11:45 AM







?
Till such time TFE is mainstream, it is better to avoid statements about Social Credit that has supporters like Norman Kurland. Energy intensitve ecologically hostile cybernetic sytems for control of the money supply ,creation is not ecologically sustainable.Please consder carbon-neutral vision for interest-free financing.
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam
--- On Wed, 14/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial Economics................................
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 4:45 PM









?? Dear Helge Nome,et al,
?
????????????? I think that Social Credit has in one sense run its course, and carries quite alot of baggage from the past.It is also to some extent out of date.?Most people as you realize have never ever heard of it even those who have been in politics for many years. 
?
Furthermore, it can be overcomplex even though basically it is very simple. As such this tends to disuade the general populace in trying to examine it to any degree, and feel inexpert in trying to criticize it.
?
?Also, one reason why it was descredited (pardon the pun if you can call it that!!) was that there was a general fear that debt-free money could lead to serious inflation, or worse. 
?
However,?many failed to realize that it already exists but it is earned money as tax which is largely spent as non-repayable grants (rather like debt-free capital which one assumes to be newly created finance). This like SC is based on accounting information of relevant public goods, and services. When "enough" tax-payer money is pumped in or rather transmitted electronically to relevant accounts it does not lead to serious inflation ofcourse.
?
My own developing project of Transfinancial Economics was independently being created without knowledge of anything about SC.. initially that is. I was very suprised that there was anything seriously similiar to it, and I found it difficult to get any sense about it from people claiming to be "experts" on the subject. Like mainstream economics there was a tendency to mystify rather than clarify. This may be due in part with the use, or "abuse" of language. We can see this all too well on the Socialcredit/elistas discussion group. 
?
Moreover, if we are to use?SC it has to be modernized to incorporate the computer age. It is rediculous to see that people talk of? money in terms of something other than electronic transmissions of vital data from one bank account to another. This is the whole key to the problem
?
??????????????? MONEY = ELECTRONIC TRANSMISSION OF DATA.
?
The above is the simple reality...full stop,end of sentence. With the right computer programming it would be possible to track virtually all transactions. If such data has to a large extent an ID as to what is being sold, or exchanged (ie. product, and serivce IDs) we gain a very accurate picture of how the entire economy of a country works plus the velocity of aggregate transactions ofcourse. 
?
We will also get a good idea as to how much new non-repayable money could be created, and transmitted electronically without the need for raising taxes for government, or indeed, most forms of fundraising for various charities, or non-profit ngos. 
?
?Businesses by law would have to register their product, and service IDs replacing direct, and indirect taxation legislation/registration. As to how such an electronic accounting system would work is not fully clear... But barcode readers used in many shops including supermarkets could be replaced, or modified (depending on model) to register changes in price?when products are sold. This data could then be transmitted to the bank, or a relevant agency of it.?
?
Ofcourse, even if we do not have the IDs of most products, and services of the economy a "blind" electronic system to some degree could be utilised as the new economic model. It would still be able to determine transactions, and their velocity if the right programming is there. Some idea of what is being exchanged could be determined too electronically.
?
At present, the bailouts, and the like are created by debt-based capital which is absurd, and criminally wrong. This is something which is difficult for mainstream politicians to fully understand, or appreciate because they have "brainwashed" by orthodox economic thinking..which incidently is also the key reason why they are loathe to nationalize the banks being "unable" to realize that these institutions?should strictly speaking be a public service rather than a private business for a plutocracy.
?
However, there may be now a serious chance of them of being put into state ownership. Fingers crossed!
?
Robert Searle.
?
?
?


--- On Tue, 13/1/09, helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: "Socialcreditlist" <socialcredit at elistas.com>, "Len Skowronski" <lmskowronski at shaw.ca>
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 2:24 AM




#yiv1186315594 #yiv1936973370 #yiv1861457425 #yiv585870814 #yiv897821316 #yiv977366417 #yiv1170827877 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
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font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

I would like to comment on some changes that have taken place in the world since the time when Douglas entered upon the world stage. 
>From reading his writings it appears that the prevailing belief at that time was that industrialization of production would lead to more leisure by an ever increasing number of people. And since you don't pay machines a wage to produce goods and services, the amount of purchasing power provided to a shrinking number of workers for producing
those goods and services would be wholly inadequate to buy them and so make continuing funds available to finance ongoing production. 
In order to deal with this problem the "leisured" class of people would be given access to free credit to purchase the excess goods and services available and, in the process, provide the required funds to maintain production. A win-win for everybody.? (I suspect Douglas had in mind the British aristocracy when he envisioned a "leisured" class of people because that was part of his experience growing up).
However, society did not develop quite the way envisioned: As affluence increased, people developed an insatiable appetite for ever more frivolous goods and services, making everybody even more busy than they were before!
As a result we now have a world that is choking in waste products from an overheated production system fueled by debt based credit (instead of free credit) where the people who made the ledger entries to create new money not only claim ownership of the stuff, but also claim interest on it for the arduous task of pushing a few keyboard buttons!
Awesome audacity. And they are actually getting away with it because most people don't understand what they are doing.
?Giving them that understanding is our job in the Social Credit Movement
Regards,
Helge



From: wmklinck at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:19:12 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Per, Social Credit has no intention of "adjusting to the realities of to-day." ?The so-called "realities" of the present are the evils which Social Credit aims to eliminate or rectify. ?Of prime concern is the elimination of both the threat and reality of the Servile State--whether it be fascist, communist, socialist, that of Keynesian debt-finance or any form of totalitarian or semi-totalitarian regime. ?As Douglas avered, we must build up from the individual and not down from the state. ?Systems were made for men and not men for systems. ?Economic policy must originate with individual consumers and not from the state. ?The ills that Douglas identified have only become more accentuated and more entrenched than when he wrote. ?Social Credit becomes more applicable with every increase in technological efficiency which displaces labor with technology and hence is even more appropriate than when Douglas began writing on the subject--which became
 known as Social Credit. ?I note that you have for some time made submissions to this group. ?The group exists to study the subject of Douglas Social Credit and anyone who contributes to it should reasonably be expected to have made a sincere and serious effort to read and understand the written works of Douglas and his close supporters... ?Would you kindly indicate to the group specifically which of those works you have read diligently so that those of the group might be informed as to your qualifications to expound on the subject. ?I am sure that you will agree that this is a fair request. 
Sincerely
Wally





On 9-Jan-09, at 2:56 PM, Per Almgren wrote:


Joe Thomson skrev:

(John Rawson wrote:-) ?Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course, with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to link us further with anti-semitism.

(Joe replies:-) ?Linking "us further with anti-semitism" would be the least of my concerns over this method of approach, John. ?You may not be aware of it, but what you are proposing is the ?building of a totalitarian "slave state", ?not a one in which "individual" freedom will be allowed to develop and flourish. ?That the "slaves" will be well fed and quartered, while they're needed, is of little consequence. ?They're still "slaves", beholden for their continued ?sustenance to "servitude" to the "State" and the "system" it imposes on them.
In my opinion this writing of "slave state" is not what John describes. My impression now is that there is to much arguing of what Douglas have expressed in a special situation in this list and I think that if Social Credit should be of any use in the future, ?it must be allowed to adjust to realities of to-day. If no new thinking is accepted, there is not much use to discuss, it would just be a seminar of history, not a forum for promoting useful ideas for practical use in the society.

This is the very antithesis of "Social Credit". ??It is "Fascism" without the more odious facets of that failed system fully revealing themselves. ?Which they soon would, if ever it were imposed. ?It is interesting that we have been duped into calling this 'anti-semitism' considering where such a policy likely originated. 
This could not be called Fascism in the common meaning of the word.

Per Almgren

(John continues:-) And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the same category, which is ridiculous.

(Joe replies:-) ?It is "repaid", John. ?It cancels that portion of /existing/ debt charges that could not otherwise be repaid. ?Without creating ANOTHER debt charge in the process. ?It is an "accounting adjustment" carried out in the economy as a whole to more fully allow the overall costs of production to be FINANCIALLY, as well as 'physically', self-liquidating with consumption. ??(John continues:-) An independent Credit Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political decision, even if it only considered a divarication between discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

(Joe replies:-) ?I can ?generally agree with that provided it be realized this "new money" is applied to reducing prices to ?Consumers FIRST, not ?to funding other things which have additional "costs".

Regards,

Joe 

???----- Original Message -----

???*From:* John G Rawson <mailto:johngrawson at hotmail.com>

???*To:* Socred elistas <mailto:socialcredit at elistas.com>

???*Sent:* Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:07 PM

???*Subject:* RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



???For the first parts, you have valid points. ?I have never debated

???whether or not some form of price control might be necessary. But

???based on the rather inane information that had previously been

???circulated, I could not see how this particular mechanism could be

???practicable. Your new information at least clears part of that

???objection.

???Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And

???yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course,

???with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns

???etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to

???link us further with anti-semitism.

???And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid

???means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the

???same category, which is ridiculous. An independent Credit

???Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into

???circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand

???inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political

???decision, even if it only considered a divarication between

???discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

???The Ottawa agreement did nothing to increase trade or spending

???power. ?All it did was to close shop against other nations. And

???one of its minor sidelines was to force us to buy useless strains

???of forest seed from you rather than the USA. The Douglas fir

???appeared to have come from somewhere inside the arctic circle,

???because the lengtrh of day effect made it bud burst far too early

???in the spring so that it got frost-burned in our much milder

???climate in the central Nth. Is. Then it hardened off about

???Christmas and ceased growing through all the warm summer and

???autumn period. ?I remember a compartment in Kaingaroa Forest

???planted with both this strain and a normal one from Washington or

???wherever. The boundary looked like a sudden cliff face as the

???canopy dropped from one to the other.The only point I was making

???over food subsidies was that we had a humanitarian government that

???helped both public health and a major industry by the use of

???debt-free credit. Rooseveldt's New Deal did something the same

???thing on borrowed money. War expenditure finallly brought us right

???out, and as a point of interest NZ (with strict import controls)

???came out of the war with zero overseas debt. (And a bureaucracy

???subsidised less healthy white floured bread, not wholemeal!)

???But the government didn't "have to" subsidise food. People were

???starving and it used one method to help them. Coming from a

???(broke, ex-serviceman's) farm, I never went hungry. But I knew men

???my age whose developmenmt was stunted for that reason.

???It seems we may have to revisit times like that before enough

???people will again consider monetary reform. in any shape, SC or other.



???John R.



---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email wmklinck at shaw.ca
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email helgenome at hotmail.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit






---------------------------------------------------------------------
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You're subscribed to this list with the email dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit


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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan 15 07:03:47 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:03:47 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Carbon Neutral TFE...CERTAIN CORRECTIONS!!! Get It Right
	about TFE!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <134671.71472.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?? PLEASE KINDLY NOTE TWO CORRECTIONS IN CAPITALS
?
?? R.SEARLE

--- On Thu, 15/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [GJM] Carbon Neutral TFE with usury free debts !!! Get It Right about TFE!!!!!!!
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Thursday, 15 January, 2009, 1:48 PM








--- On Thu, 15/1/09, Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [GJM] Carbon Neutral TFE with usury free debts !!!
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net, dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Thursday, 15 January, 2009, 11:33 AM







Dear Robert,
?
What I understand to be common thread is the creation of interest free money. Debt free money is not always possible as some like to get the money back and it is not possible alsways to forgive. Debt has to be freed from usury.I understand when debt free money is talked about, it is assumed that it is the usurious debt free money that I has in mind. That is reason, I also appreciate the call for usurious debt free money. David Moosa Pidcock is for debt free money.
?
Answer. Obviously you are confused. I will try, and make it simple. There are two types of money discussed here.
?
?
i) Interest-Free Money. This is capital which is repayable as a loan. Most of the people like yourself are concerned with it being free of interest. It is?created electronically by banks. 
?
ii) Debt-Free Money. This is capital which is NON-REPAYABLE. It is rather like a grant. Governments produce this, and is spent into the economy. TFE is mainly concerned with debt-free money. But interest-free capital or credit plays a part in the scheme of things until society is ready for capital being purely debt-free...though it could be electronically monitored in? many cases possibly.
?
?
?
Considering the visions of energy security and then the linkage of green house gas emissions with the fossil fuel based energy, it is not possible to envision an ecologically sustainable monetary transation system with programmes for inflation controls. Therefore there is a need to envision carbon neutral systems for transaction of value. For supporters of barter, there is no need for this as well as the local economies in the mountains and remote regions do not have much value even for paper currency.
?
?
Answer. The programmes for inflation controls ARE ONLY USED AS LAST RESORT. My views on this matter have changed, and revelant material has to be changed too where possible. It is highly ?LIKELY? ?that they ?will NOT be used ..if at all. The reason being that our understanding of how the economy works electronically would be such as to preclude any possibility of any transmission of new non-repayable money (ie.debt-free) being "too inflationary". This would be largely worked out by specific computer programming before the transmission of new capital. 
?
?Ofcourse, as is happening with the bank bailouts, and certain commercial aid ?it is possible to have a rough estimate of how much new money could be injected or rather transmitted into the economy without any fear of serious inflation. In other words, enough can be created successfully. However, in TFE it is possible to produce the maximun where, and when necessary after certain electronic inflation checks of the "entire" econnomy are undertaken at a click of a button.
?
The other thing we need to realize is that the bank bailouts, and certain COMMERCIAL aid is that this money is a loan repayable curtesy of the taxpayer. This ofcourse this is ABSURD especially when it has been created at a click of button, and will probably not lead to serious inflation. In other words, the money on moral grounds should be DEBT-FREE, or NON-REPAYABLE. 
?
All this to me is simple in extremis. Even an economist, and politician would be able to understand it!!!
?
?
?
You may have notices that I like to take up the commons across the approaches and therefore , respecting your proposition for interest free money and ecological safety, I seek taking up on the commons in SC approach rather than discrediting the people associated with SC movement. I stand corrected on Norman Kurland.
?
?
I am NOT trying to discredit anybody in the SC "movement"or indeed, SC as such! All I have been doing is showing the way to a more advanced, and more modern approach towards economics.
?
?
R.Searle

With best wishes and regards
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam
--- On Wed, 14/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial Economics...............................
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 9:04 PM







?? Dr. Muhammad Mukhtar Alam,
???????????????? With respect, I do not think you fully understand Social Credit, and moreover I doubt whether Norman Kurland is a supporter of it as he is Binary Economist!
?
?
R.Searle

--- On Wed, 14/1/09, Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial Economics..............................
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net, dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 11:45 AM







?
Till such time TFE is mainstream, it is better to avoid statements about Social Credit that has supporters like Norman Kurland. Energy intensitve ecologically hostile cybernetic sytems for control of the money supply ,creation is not ecologically sustainable.Please consder carbon-neutral vision for interest-free financing.
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam
--- On Wed, 14/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [GJM] Beyond Social Credit to Transfinancial Economics................................
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009, 4:45 PM









?? Dear Helge Nome,et al,
?
????????????? I think that Social Credit has in one sense run its course, and carries quite alot of baggage from the past.It is also to some extent out of date.?Most people as you realize have never ever heard of it even those who have been in politics for many years. 
?
Furthermore, it can be overcomplex even though basically it is very simple. As such this tends to disuade the general populace in trying to examine it to any degree, and feel inexpert in trying to criticize it.
?
?Also, one reason why it was descredited (pardon the pun if you can call it that!!) was that there was a general fear that debt-free money could lead to serious inflation, or worse. 
?
However,?many failed to realize that it already exists but it is earned money as tax which is largely spent as non-repayable grants (rather like debt-free capital which one assumes to be newly created finance). This like SC is based on accounting information of relevant public goods, and services. When "enough" tax-payer money is pumped in or rather transmitted electronically to relevant accounts it does not lead to serious inflation ofcourse.
?
My own developing project of Transfinancial Economics was independently being created without knowledge of anything about SC.. initially that is. I was very suprised that there was anything seriously similiar to it, and I found it difficult to get any sense about it from people claiming to be "experts" on the subject. Like mainstream economics there was a tendency to mystify rather than clarify. This may be due in part with the use, or "abuse" of language. We can see this all too well on the Socialcredit/elistas discussion group. 
?
Moreover, if we are to use?SC it has to be modernized to incorporate the computer age. It is rediculous to see that people talk of? money in terms of something other than electronic transmissions of vital data from one bank account to another. This is the whole key to the problem
?
??????????????? MONEY = ELECTRONIC TRANSMISSION OF DATA.
?
The above is the simple reality...full stop,end of sentence. With the right computer programming it would be possible to track virtually all transactions. If such data has to a large extent an ID as to what is being sold, or exchanged (ie. product, and serivce IDs) we gain a very accurate picture of how the entire economy of a country works plus the velocity of aggregate transactions ofcourse. 
?
We will also get a good idea as to how much new non-repayable money could be created, and transmitted electronically without the need for raising taxes for government, or indeed, most forms of fundraising for various charities, or non-profit ngos. 
?
?Businesses by law would have to register their product, and service IDs replacing direct, and indirect taxation legislation/registration. As to how such an electronic accounting system would work is not fully clear... But barcode readers used in many shops including supermarkets could be replaced, or modified (depending on model) to register changes in price?when products are sold. This data could then be transmitted to the bank, or a relevant agency of it.?
?
Ofcourse, even if we do not have the IDs of most products, and services of the economy a "blind" electronic system to some degree could be utilised as the new economic model. It would still be able to determine transactions, and their velocity if the right programming is there. Some idea of what is being exchanged could be determined too electronically.
?
At present, the bailouts, and the like are created by debt-based capital which is absurd, and criminally wrong. This is something which is difficult for mainstream politicians to fully understand, or appreciate because they have "brainwashed" by orthodox economic thinking..which incidently is also the key reason why they are loathe to nationalize the banks being "unable" to realize that these institutions?should strictly speaking be a public service rather than a private business for a plutocracy.
?
However, there may be now a serious chance of them of being put into state ownership. Fingers crossed!
?
Robert Searle.
?
?
?


--- On Tue, 13/1/09, helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: "Socialcreditlist" <socialcredit at elistas.com>, "Len Skowronski" <lmskowronski at shaw.ca>
Date: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009, 2:24 AM




#yiv402692809 #yiv1186315594 #yiv1936973370 #yiv1861457425 #yiv585870814 #yiv897821316 #yiv977366417 #yiv1170827877 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv402692809 #yiv1186315594 #yiv1936973370 #yiv1861457425 #yiv585870814 #yiv897821316 #yiv977366417 #yiv1170827877 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

I would like to comment on some changes that have taken place in the world since the time when Douglas entered upon the world stage. 
>From reading his writings it appears that the prevailing belief at that time was that industrialization of production would lead to more leisure by an ever increasing number of people. And since you don't pay machines a wage to produce goods and services, the amount of purchasing power provided to a shrinking number of workers for producing
those goods and services would be wholly inadequate to buy them and so make continuing funds available to finance ongoing production. 
In order to deal with this problem the "leisured" class of people would be given access to free credit to purchase the excess goods and services available and, in the process, provide the required funds to maintain production. A win-win for everybody.? (I suspect Douglas had in mind the British aristocracy when he envisioned a "leisured" class of people because that was part of his experience growing up).
However, society did not develop quite the way envisioned: As affluence increased, people developed an insatiable appetite for ever more frivolous goods and services, making everybody even more busy than they were before!
As a result we now have a world that is choking in waste products from an overheated production system fueled by debt based credit (instead of free credit) where the people who made the ledger entries to create new money not only claim ownership of the stuff, but also claim interest on it for the arduous task of pushing a few keyboard buttons!
Awesome audacity. And they are actually getting away with it because most people don't understand what they are doing.
?Giving them that understanding is our job in the Social Credit Movement
Regards,
Helge



From: wmklinck at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:19:12 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Per, Social Credit has no intention of "adjusting to the realities of to-day." ?The so-called "realities" of the present are the evils which Social Credit aims to eliminate or rectify. ?Of prime concern is the elimination of both the threat and reality of the Servile State--whether it be fascist, communist, socialist, that of Keynesian debt-finance or any form of totalitarian or semi-totalitarian regime. ?As Douglas avered, we must build up from the individual and not down from the state. ?Systems were made for men and not men for systems. ?Economic policy must originate with individual consumers and not from the state. ?The ills that Douglas identified have only become more accentuated and more entrenched than when he wrote. ?Social Credit becomes more applicable with every increase in technological efficiency which displaces labor with technology and hence is even more appropriate than when Douglas began writing on the subject--which became
 known as Social Credit. ?I note that you have for some time made submissions to this group. ?The group exists to study the subject of Douglas Social Credit and anyone who contributes to it should reasonably be expected to have made a sincere and serious effort to read and understand the written works of Douglas and his close supporters... ?Would you kindly indicate to the group specifically which of those works you have read diligently so that those of the group might be informed as to your qualifications to expound on the subject. ?I am sure that you will agree that this is a fair request. 
Sincerely
Wally





On 9-Jan-09, at 2:56 PM, Per Almgren wrote:


Joe Thomson skrev:

(John Rawson wrote:-) ?Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course, with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to link us further with anti-semitism.

(Joe replies:-) ?Linking "us further with anti-semitism" would be the least of my concerns over this method of approach, John. ?You may not be aware of it, but what you are proposing is the ?building of a totalitarian "slave state", ?not a one in which "individual" freedom will be allowed to develop and flourish. ?That the "slaves" will be well fed and quartered, while they're needed, is of little consequence. ?They're still "slaves", beholden for their continued ?sustenance to "servitude" to the "State" and the "system" it imposes on them.
In my opinion this writing of "slave state" is not what John describes. My impression now is that there is to much arguing of what Douglas have expressed in a special situation in this list and I think that if Social Credit should be of any use in the future, ?it must be allowed to adjust to realities of to-day. If no new thinking is accepted, there is not much use to discuss, it would just be a seminar of history, not a forum for promoting useful ideas for practical use in the society.

This is the very antithesis of "Social Credit". ??It is "Fascism" without the more odious facets of that failed system fully revealing themselves. ?Which they soon would, if ever it were imposed. ?It is interesting that we have been duped into calling this 'anti-semitism' considering where such a policy likely originated. 
This could not be called Fascism in the common meaning of the word.

Per Almgren

(John continues:-) And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the same category, which is ridiculous.

(Joe replies:-) ?It is "repaid", John. ?It cancels that portion of /existing/ debt charges that could not otherwise be repaid. ?Without creating ANOTHER debt charge in the process. ?It is an "accounting adjustment" carried out in the economy as a whole to more fully allow the overall costs of production to be FINANCIALLY, as well as 'physically', self-liquidating with consumption. ??(John continues:-) An independent Credit Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political decision, even if it only considered a divarication between discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

(Joe replies:-) ?I can ?generally agree with that provided it be realized this "new money" is applied to reducing prices to ?Consumers FIRST, not ?to funding other things which have additional "costs".

Regards,

Joe 

???----- Original Message -----

???*From:* John G Rawson <mailto:johngrawson at hotmail.com>

???*To:* Socred elistas <mailto:socialcredit at elistas.com>

???*Sent:* Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:07 PM

???*Subject:* RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



???For the first parts, you have valid points. ?I have never debated

???whether or not some form of price control might be necessary. But

???based on the rather inane information that had previously been

???circulated, I could not see how this particular mechanism could be

???practicable. Your new information at least clears part of that

???objection.

???Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And

???yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course,

???with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns

???etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to

???link us further with anti-semitism.

???And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid

???means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the

???same category, which is ridiculous. An independent Credit

???Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into

???circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand

???inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political

???decision, even if it only considered a divarication between

???discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

???The Ottawa agreement did nothing to increase trade or spending

???power. ?All it did was to close shop against other nations. And

???one of its minor sidelines was to force us to buy useless strains

???of forest seed from you rather than the USA. The Douglas fir

???appeared to have come from somewhere inside the arctic circle,

???because the lengtrh of day effect made it bud burst far too early

???in the spring so that it got frost-burned in our much milder

???climate in the central Nth. Is. Then it hardened off about

???Christmas and ceased growing through all the warm summer and

???autumn period. ?I remember a compartment in Kaingaroa Forest

???planted with both this strain and a normal one from Washington or

???wherever. The boundary looked like a sudden cliff face as the

???canopy dropped from one to the other.The only point I was making

???over food subsidies was that we had a humanitarian government that

???helped both public health and a major industry by the use of

???debt-free credit. Rooseveldt's New Deal did something the same

???thing on borrowed money. War expenditure finallly brought us right

???out, and as a point of interest NZ (with strict import controls)

???came out of the war with zero overseas debt. (And a bureaucracy

???subsidised less healthy white floured bread, not wholemeal!)

???But the government didn't "have to" subsidise food. People were

???starving and it used one method to help them. Coming from a

???(broke, ex-serviceman's) farm, I never went hungry. But I knew men

???my age whose developmenmt was stunted for that reason.

???It seems we may have to revisit times like that before enough

???people will again consider monetary reform. in any shape, SC or other.



???John R.



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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 16 04:55:43 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:55:43 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Zimbabwe Economics at Work!!
Message-ID: <410691.19705.qm@web27404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All,
?
????????? I think Hogwash will love this!!!
?
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20090116/twl-zimbabwe-unveils-100-trillion-dollar-2ac392e.html
?
?
R.Searle


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 16 08:59:47 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 15:59:47 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Global Meltdown: Africa Needs Stable Exports
In-Reply-To: <0c6501172db6615b454144360ec463ea.squirrel@webmail3.lexi.net>
Message-ID: <482603.4681.qm@web27405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Fri, 16/1/09, Thompson Ayodele <thompson at ippanigeria.org> wrote:

From: Thompson Ayodele <thompson at ippanigeria.org>
Subject: Global Meltdown: Africa Needs Stable Exports
To: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 12:40 PM

                Global Meltdown: Africa Needs Stable Exports
                       By Olusegun Sotola*

Since September 2008, the World has been gripped with financial crisis
that has simply overshadowed the two earlier crises: food and fuel. While
the first two crises were caused by persistent rise in cost of oil and
food for months, the financial crisis was caused by unsafe exposure of
financial institutions to loans that were not well assessed.

The financial crisis has been latent and was just a matter of time
following the creation about four years ago, of abundant liquidity and low
interest rate by the US Federal Reserve.  In response to this excessive
liquidity, banks packaged loans for all sorts of people including those
with bad credit records. This created bubble in the credit markets
generally including the real estate. Financial Institutions borrowed short
and lend long.

An obvious inducement for these sorts of lending is the high interest
rate. The first sign of default emerged when, financial services
innovators repackaged and securitised these loans and hit exchanges with
it. When real estate prices began to fall, the number of defaulters
increased. This consequently resulted in the collapse of sub-prime lending
(a type of loan that is offered at rate above prime to individuals who do
not qualify for prime rate loans).

Though other credit market segments (prime mortgage loans, commercial real
estate, leverage loan, etc) also could have been the precipitator,
sub-prime collapse was a contagion on them. The attendant results of this
scenario are the spiraling problems now called the global financial
crisis.

What started as a downturn in US real estate market has now assumed global
dimension. Leaders in the developed world have met severally to see how
best to lessen the effect and stop the situation from deteriorating. To
this end, some policy initiatives have been devolved.

Surprisingly however, African leaders stand aloof and have been behaving
as if the continent is immune to the crisis. Official statements confirmed
this stance. According to World Bank, the GDP growth projection in
developing economies for 2009 is now likely to be 4.5% as against 6.4%
earlier projected.  This shows the possibility of the crisis being
contagious. Whether the African economy have the capacity and character to
absorb the crisis is far from obvious.

Of course there is hardly any domestic mortgage market in Africa to have a
sub-prime problem. But there will be both direct and indirect effects. The
direct effects will be minimal, while the indirect effect will be
colossal. The local economy will be directly affected to the extent of how
much of its business capital comes from abroad. For example, financial
institutions will be affected to the extent of their exposure to foreign
ownership and investment interests.

This is the experience in Latin America where most of its financial
institutions are under the control of foreign owners. Foreign owners could
withdraw or withhold their investment portfolio to service local economy.
There is also the prospect of reduced private capital flow. Capital
outflows have been reported in some emerging markets and IPO worth $30
billion has been cancelled in emerging market in 2008.  Similarly,
reversals of capital flows will lead to equity sell-offs and also put an
upward pressure on the exchange rate.

The above trend is noticeable already in capital markets around Africa.
Prices of shares have been plummeting, as foreign investors are
withdrawing in order to escape with minimal loss. For instance, in
Nigeria, the All Share Index (ASI) and the market capitalization have
declined inexorably for months now.

In early December 2008, ASI had declined from 66,271 to below 33,025,
representing $89.2b and $50.3b in market capitalization respectively. This
represents almost a 50% decline.  Though this free-fall in ASI predates
the crisis, the crisis further accentuated the loss of confidence which
have made many capital market investors to exit, even in loss.

Perhaps, the long-term effect is the meltdown impact on African exports,
especially in term of production, employment and revenue accruable.
African economy being monolithic and largely dependent on extractive
resources is a sure bet to suffer. Prices of nature-sourced resources are
dwindling amidst decreasing demand. Oil prices, for instance have plunged
below $40 and still falling, from a record $147 months ago.

The Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) has cut
output by 1.5 million barrel per day. This has happened at a time when
there were cuts in production in countries like Nigeria and Angola due to
panic withdrawal by investors and local insurgency. African countries need
a good stable export price to keep their import expenditures and export
revenues in tandem.

In Platinum market, Lonmin Plc, a major player in Africa, has warned of
possible lay-offs of staffers due to decrease in both demand and the
prices for its metal. AngloGold Ashanti (third largest producer of gold in
the world based in South Africa) planned to quit some of its projects. It
will be reviewing its capital expenditures for this year by $400 million .
All these will collectively create domino effect throughout the continent.

As developed countries economy experience recession, loans and grants,
which form a sizable chunk of developing world national budgets, will
fall. Also, there will be a fall in remittances which have over the years
become an important source of foreign exchange earnings for African
countries.  Receipts on tourism will reduce. Africa exposure and
dependence on foreign funds is large and cannot be a spectator when games
like this are on going.

Several African countries are experiencing macroeconomic imbalance. This
raises palpable fears of this crisis ending in human tragedy. High food
and oil prices have pushed an estimated 100 million people into extreme
poverty. More are being added to this number as growth rate decline. If
this crisis is not timely addressed, less and less money will be available
for education, health and other services.

The concerns on how safe Africa?s foreign reserves are genuine bearing in
mind that these reserves are domiciled in some of these banks that have
now gone under. In a matter of two weeks between September 10 and October
1, 2008, Nigeria lost about $1.5billion when its foreign reserve fell from
$63.5billion to $61.99billion.

Recently, it has dipped further to $55.254billion  and there are no signs
that this downward slope will stop soon. Amidst official denials that the
global recession would not affect Nigerian economy, the local currency
(Naira) has continued its free-fall in foreign exchange market.

In view of declining crude oil prices, several governments, particularly
oil producing countries, might resort to raising all forms of taxes in
order to meet the shortfall in revenue. This will be counterproductive in
the longer term, as it will lead to more tax evasion rather than the
increase in fund being envisaged.

One lesson learnt is for business managers to play less with financial
innovation in which the associated risk is not well assessed. Growth
aspirations should commensurate with organizational ability. Any
defaulting board or management should pay for the risk. This is why they
were highly remunerated in the first place.

Government rushing-in with aid to underwrite for mismanaged businesses
creates incentives for mismanagement elsewhere. If this is made to
continue in like fashion, such government will crash under its weight in
no distance time.

Direct state assistance in matter of this nature does two things. First,
it uses taxpayer?s money to correct the private mistake of some, and it
disincentivised both the management and the shareholders of better-managed
firms. Secondly, it creates an impression that some firms are ?too big to
fail?,  and will therefore be bail out by government. This apart from
undermining innovativeness, it also surely reduced the pressure to raise
fresh capital.

It is economic folly for Africa to continue living in the pre-financial
crisis period. Africa?s home grown problems are almost intractable, it
will be compounded, if leaders? response to the global financial crisis
remains lukewarm.


The first thing on the agenda is improving the regulatory environment,
especially the monetary regulation. In this regard government should do
away with restrictive policies and create a favourable environment for
entrepreneurship. Large volumes of businesses in Africa are informal. They
were forced to this edge by frustrating formalising procedures. That they
will not feel the credit crunch is not obvious. Encouraging them to move
into formality by eliminating barriers to entry will foster development.

Direct government intervention will create bigger problems in the longer
term. The downward trend in the Nigeria capital market is getting worse
despite repeated interventions of the Central Bank of Nigeria. The volume
of trading activities daily is now a paltry $18.6m as against $69m.
Besides, governments are bad in resources allocations. Apart from
corruption and systemic leakages, government considers extraneous factors
in determining who gets what.

Economy grows when entrepreneurs innovatively respond to market signals.
Government will do well by removing prohibitive taxes and regulations that
distorts this signals.

Where do all these lead us? Fortunately Africa has a lot of untapped
resources and arable land to expand their exports base. There is the need
to concentrate on how these resources could be harnessed. After decades of
failure of foreign aid and loans, relying on the World Bank  $2 billion
?interest free loan? to mitigate the effects of the global financial
crisis would ultimately kick-start another debt burden. What the continent
needs is predictable rules that are business friendly which will in turn
to drive up Africans innate entrepreneurial skills.

* Sotola is a Research Fellow with the Initiative for Public Policy
Analysis, a public policy think-tank based in Lagos, Nigeria





Thompson Ayodele
Director
Initiative for Public Policy Analysis
P.O.Box 6434
Shomolu,Lagos
Nigeria
Email:thompson at ippanigeria.org
Backup: thompsondele at onebox.com
Website: www.ippanigeria.org
*****Good Public Policy is Sound Politics**********

Tel:01-791-0959
Cell:080 2302 5079




      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 16 09:24:45 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:24:45 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Where do we go from here?
Message-ID: <358139.65941.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
?





Where do we go from here?





Email


Pdf


Print

January 2009?|?154???Cover story???Where do we go from here? 

The markets have ruled for a third of a century, but it has all ended in tears. A return to selfish nationalism is possible. If we are to avoid this sombre outcome, we must find ways to rub the rough edges off globalisation

Robert Skidelsky


 

Robert Skidelsky is the author of John Maynard Keynes 1883-1946: Economist, Philosopher, Statesman (Pan) 
Discuss this article at First Drafts, Prospect 's blog

Any great failure should force us to rethink. The present economic crisis is a great failure of the market system. As George Soros has rightly pointed out, "the salient feature of the current financial crisis is that it was not caused by some external shock like Opec? the crisis was generated by the system itself." It originated in the US, the heart of the world's financial system and the source of much of its financial innovation. That is why the crisis is global, and is indeed a crisis of globalisation.

There were three kinds of failure. The first, discussed by John Kay in this issue, was institutional: banks mutated from utilities into casinos. However, they did so because they, their regulators and the policymakers sitting on top of the regulators all succumbed to something called the "efficient market hypothesis": the view that financial markets could not consistently mis-price assets and therefore needed little regulation. So the second failure was intellectual. The most astonishing admission was that of former Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan in autumn 2008 that the Fed's regime of monetary management had been based on a "flaw." The "whole intellectual edifice," he said, "collapsed in the summer of last year." Behind the efficient market idea lay the intellectual failure of mainstream economics. It could neither predict nor explain the meltdown because nearly all economists believed that markets were self-correcting. As a consequence,
 economics itself was marginalised.

But the crisis also represents a moral failure: that of a system built on debt. At the heart of the moral failure is the worship of growth for its own sake, rather than as a way to achieve the "good life." As a result, economic efficiency?the means to growth?has been given absolute priority in our thinking and policy. The only moral compass we now have is the thin and degraded notion of economic welfare. This moral lacuna explains uncritical acceptance of globalisation and financial innovation. Leverage is a duty because it "levers" faster growth. The theological language which would have recognised the collapse of the credit bubble as the "wages of sin," the come-uppance for prodigious profligacy, has become unusable. But the come-uppance has come, nevertheless.

Historians have always been fascinated by cyclical theories of history. Societies are said to swing like pendulums between alternating phases of vigour and decay; progress and reaction; licentiousness and puritanism. Each outward movement produces a crisis of excess which leads to a reaction. The equilibrium position is hard to achieve and always unstable. 

In his Cycles of American History (1986) Arthur Schlesinger Jr defined a political economy cycle as "a continuing shift in national involvement between public purpose and private interest." The swing he identified was between "liberal" (what we would call social democratic) and "conservative" epochs. The idea of the "crisis" is central. Liberal periods succumb to the corruption of power, as idealists yield to time-servers, and conservative arguments against rent-seeking excesses win the day. But the conservative era then succumbs to a corruption of money, as financiers and businessmen use the freedom of de-regulation to rip off the public. A crisis of under-regulated markets presages the return to a liberal era. 

This idea fits the American historical narrative tolerably well. It also makes sense globally. The era of what Americans would call "conservative" economics opened with the publication of Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations in 1776. Yet despite the early intellectual ascendancy of free trade, it took a major crisis?the potato famine of the early 1840s?to produce an actual shift in policy: the 1846 repeal of the Corn Laws that ushered in the free trade era.


***

In the 1870s, the pendulum started to swing back to what the historian AV Dicey called the "age of collectivism." The major crisis that triggered this was the first great global depression, produced by a collapse in food prices. It was a severe enough shock to produce a major shift in political economy. This came in two waves. First, all industrial countries except Britain put up tariffs to protect employment in agriculture and industry. (Britain relied on mass emigration to eliminate rural unemployment.) Second, all industrial countries except the US started schemes of social insurance to protect their citizens against life's hazards. The great depression of 1929-32 produced a second wave of collectivism, now associated with the "Keynesian" use of fiscal and monetary policy to maintain full employment. Most capitalist countries nationalised key industries. Roosevelt's new deal regulated banking and the power utilities, and belatedly embarked on the road
 of social security. International capital movements were severely controlled everywhere.

This movement was not all one way, or else the west would have ended up with communism, which was the fate of large parts of the globe. Even before the crisis of collectivism in the 1970s, a swing back had started, as trade, after 1945, was progressively freed and capital movements liberalised. The rule was free trade abroad and social democracy at home.

The Bretton Woods system, set up with Keynes's help in 1944, was the international expression of liberal/social democratic political economy. It aimed to free foreign trade after the freeze of the 1930s, by providing an environment that reduced incentives for economic nationalism. At its heart was a system of fixed exchange rates, subject to agreed adjustment, to avoid competitive currency depreciation. 

The crisis of liberalism, or social democracy, unfolded with stagflation and ungovernability in the 1970s. It broadly fits Schlesinger's notion of the "corruption of power." The Keynesian/social democratic policymakers succumbed to hubris, an intellectual corruption which convinced them that they possessed the knowledge and the tools to manage and control the economy and society from the top. This was the malady against which Hayek inveighed in his classic The Road to Serfdom (1944). The attempt in the 1970s to control inflation by wage and price controls led directly to a "crisis of governability," as trade unions, particularly in Britain, refused to accept them. Large state subsidies to producer groups, both public and private, fed the typical corruptions of behaviour identified by the new right: rent-seeking, moral hazard, free-riding. Palpable evidence of government failure obliterated memories of market failure. The new generation of economists
 abandoned Keynes and, with the help of sophisticated mathematics, reinvented the classical economics of the self-correcting market. Battered by the crises of the 1970s, governments caved in to the "inevitability" of free market forces. The swing-back became worldwide with the collapse of communism.

A conspicuous casualty of the swing-back was the Bretton Woods system that succumbed in the 1970s to the refusal of the US to curb its domestic spending. Currencies were set free to float and controls on international capital flows were progressively lifted. This heralded a wholesale change of direction towards free markets and the idea of globalisation. This was, in concept, not unattractive. The idea was that the nation state?which had been responsible for so much organised violence and wasteful spending?was on its way out, to be replaced by the global market. The prospectus was perhaps best set out by the Canadian philosopher, John Ralston Saul, in a 2004 essay in which he proclaimed the collapse of globalisation: "In the future, economics, not politics or arms, would determine the course of human events. Freed markets would quickly establish natural international balances, impervious to the old boom-and-bust cycles. The growth in international
 trade, as a result of lowering barriers, would unleash an economic-social tide that would raise all ships, whether of our western poor or of the developing world in general. Prosperous markets would turn dictatorships into democracies."

Today we are living through a crisis of conservatism. The financial crisis has brought to a head a growing dissatisfaction with the corruption of money. Neo-conservatism has sought to justify fabulous rewards to a financial plutocracy while median incomes stagnate or even fall; in the name of efficiency it has promoted the off-shoring of millions of jobs, the undermining of national communities, and the rape of nature. Such a system needs to be fabulously successful to command allegiance. Spectacular failure is bound to discredit it.

The situation we are in now thus puts into question the speed and direction of progress. Will there be a pause for thought, or will we continue much as before after a cascade of minor adjustments? The answer lies in the intellectual and moral sphere. Is economics capable of rethinking its core principles? What institutions, policies and rules are needed to make markets "well behaved"? Do we have the moral resources to challenge the dominance of money without reverting to the selfish nationalisms of the 1930s? 


***

The enquiry must start with economics. If the case for the deregulated market system is intellectually sound, it will be very hard to change. Free- marketeers claim, contrary to Soros, that the crisis is the fault of governments. US money was kept too cheap for too long after the technology bubble burst in 2000 and the attacks of 11th September 2001. The market was temporarily fooled by the government. This is a shaky defence, to say the least: if the market is so easily fooled, it cannot be very efficient.

One can also argue that the problem is not with the market system, but the fact that markets are too few and inflexible. This seems to be the view of Yale economist Robert J Shiller. He likens the financial system to an early aircraft. Just because it is prone to crash doesn't mean we should stop trying to perfect it. Shiller claims that new derivative products will soon be able to insure homeowners against the risk of house prices going down. To my mind, this is an example of trying to cure a state of inebriation by having another whiskey. There are two things wrong with it. First, if financial innovation is, in fact, the route to greater market efficiency, the financial system would have been getting more stable in the last 25 years of explosive financial engineering. Instead it has become more volatile. Second, the assumption that, given enough innovation, uncertainty can be reduced to risk, is just wrong. There will never be sufficient knowledge to
 enable contracts to be made to cover all future contingencies.

An analogous argument is that there was not enough marketisation in the global monetary system. Instead of the "clean" floating of currencies, "dirty" floating became the rule. Importantly, China and most of east Asia refused to float their currencies freely. China reverted unilaterally to a form of Bretton Woods, deliberately undervaluing the yuan against the US dollar. The resulting imbalances enabled American consumers to borrow $700bn a year from the parsimonious but super-competitive Chinese, at the cost of losing millions of manufacturing jobs to them. The Chinese saved, the Americans spent, and their debt-fuelled spending created the asset bubbles that led to the credit collapse. This source of instability needs no revision of economic theory, simply the establishment of a free market in foreign currencies. However, the assumption that a world in which currencies were allowed to float freely would be immune from the financial storms we have
 experienced depends on the belief that currencies will always trade at the correct prices?the global version of the efficient market hypothesis. 

A different claim, which goes back to Marx, is that certain structures of economy are less stable than others. Globalisation has increased instability by producing a shift in world GDP shares from wages to profits as the release of low-wage populations into the global economy has undermined the bargaining power of labour in rich countries. This has led to a crisis of under-consumption, staved off only by the expansion of debt (as Gerald Holtham points out, in Prospect's December 2008 issue). There is some truth in this. A greater equality of incomes would create more stable purchasing power. 

But the main source of instability lies in the financial markets themselves. And here it is clear that the battle of economic ideas still needs to be fought. Keynes is important in this because he produced the most powerful case for supposing that financial markets are not efficient in the sense required by efficient market theory. As he explained in The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money (1936), classical economics had ignored the two main causes of systemic financial failure: the existence of (unmeasurable) uncertainty and the role of money as a "store of value." The first led to periodic collapses of confidence; the second led investors to hoard cash if interest rates fell too low, making automatic recovery from collapses difficult. The function of government was to remove the depressive effect of both by giving investors continuous confidence to invest.

Contrary to the belief of some recent economic theories, the future is just as unknowable as Keynes thought it was. The mathematical "quants" who set up the Long Term Capital Management hedge fund in 1994 worked to a risk model which showed that the kind of financial meltdown which, in fact, bankrupted them four years later, could occur only once every four million years. This was not a rationalisation of financial interests: it was self-deception.

What economics needs, therefore, if it is to have any purchase on real world behaviour, is a new starting point. It needs to accept that the changing nature of the world precludes people from having enough information to always make contracts at the "right" prices. Such a change is a necessary condition for a permanent change in policy. Each previous crisis has produced a leading economist with the authority to challenge the prevailing consensus. So the call for a new Keynes is not just rhetorical. 

Opinion as to the degree of supervision, regulation and control needed to make a market economy well-behaved is to be found along a continuum. At one end are the free-marketeers who believe only the lightest touch only is needed; at the other are classical Marxists who believe it requires public ownership of the whole economy. In between are varieties of social democrats and middle wayers, the most famous of whom is Keynes. This territory is sure to be extensively explored over the next few years as the pendulum starts swinging back. For the question of making markets well behaved goes beyond the question of securing their efficiency. It involves making the market economy compatible with other valued aspects of life. The French social democratic slogan of the mid-1990s?"market economy yes, market society no"?encapsulates the idea that limits should be placed on the power of the market to shape social life according to its own logic. 

The battleground will be about the role of the nation-state in the globalising economy of the future, for the nation-state is the main repository and guardian of the values and traditions threatened by the disruptive power of the global market. A paradox of globalisation?which was supposed to see a withering of the nation-state?is that it has led to a revival of nationalism. A deregulated world turned out, unsurprisingly, to be one dominated by the strong. This process reached its apogee with the presidency of George W Bush and the Iraq war?which emphasised US determination to act as a free agent. Other states, too, in Europe and elsewhere, are now acting as semi-free agents. The effective choice is between a more regulated global capitalist system and its possibly violent breakup into a menagerie of warrior nationalisms. 
But to ensure we have an ordered system requires us to make globalisation efficient and acceptable. In the course of that debate, I expect one crucial point to emerge: the benefits of globalisation are real, but have been exaggerated. Improvements in the allocation of capital and reductions in opportunities for corruption are offset by increased volatility. Globalisation also raises huge issues of political accountability and social cohesion that are scarcely considered by economists, and only lazily by politicians.

There seem to be four main reasons for this blind spot. The first is the intellectual domination of economics in this debate, with its individualistic and developmental perspective. Globalisation?the integration of markets in goods, services, capital and labour?must be good because it has raised many millions out of poverty in poorer countries faster than would otherwise have been possible. Any interference with this process is impious. A second idea is that it is inevitable: technology?most conspicuously the internet?abolishes national frontiers. Technology cannot be undone. So, whether we like it or not, globalisation is our fate, and our morals and social conventions must adapt to it. The third idea is that globalisation is evolutionary; any check would be regressive. Fourthly, globalisation forces us to think of the world as a unit, which is necessary if we are to solve planet-wide problems.

These are powerful propositions, derived from the era of scarcity and not adjusted to the era of partial abundance, nor to the existence of natural limits to growth. Today the benefits of globalisation are much more obvious for poor than for rich countries. In the 1950s and 1960s, the northern hemisphere was for free trade, the southern protectionist. Today the position is partly reversed. Globalisation offers the best hope for poor countries to catch up with the rich. But growth has become less important for rich countries. In the early 1930s, Keynes thought that the international division of labour could be carried too far. "Let goods be homespun," was the title of an article he wrote in 1932. He wanted a "well-balanced" or "complete" national life, allowing a country to display the full range of its aptitudes, and not simply to be a link in a value-adding productive chain spanning the globe. Moreover, the economic benefits of offshoring are far from
 evident for richer states. Since 1997, Britain has lost 1.1m manufacturing jobs?29 per cent of its total?many of them to developing countries. The result has been a dramatic deterioration in Britain's current account balance, and a decline into deficit on the investment income balance too, meaning we pay more to foreign investors in interest and dividends than we receive from abroad. This makes it harder for Britons to pay down their huge debts to the outside world. 

Keynes's warning that the pursuit of export-led growth is bound to set nations at each others' throats is still relevant. But that does not mean just sticking as we are. Some rowing back of financial globalisation and cross-border financial institutions is required to rebalance market and state. This process is underway, as national regulators take a tighter grip over the financial institutions they are bailing out. Regulators are increasingly sceptical of banks that depend excessively on wholesale funding. Without this, there will be a natural tendency for banks to shrink back within their own frontiers.

One of the biggest problems with the global trading order remains the enormous arbitrages in tax, labour and non-wage costs that exist. These have encouraged companies to relocate operations, and depressed the bargaining power of labour. Companies like WalMart of the US and Nokia of Finland have been huge outsourcers to Asia. The only solution short of raising barriers is for governments to co-operate in flattening out some of these differences?for China, for example, to increase wages. Ralston Saul has noted that the era of globalisation saw "multiple binding economic treaties? put in place while almost no counterbalancing binding treaties were negotiated for work conditions, taxation, the environment or legal obligations." It will be difficult to create new global systems that balance public good and self interest. But the alternative is the beggar-my-neighbour world of protectionism.

Another way to curb outsourcers would be to use antitrust powers. Breaking up megalithic multinationals would at least prevent them enjoying quasi-monopoly rents, and thus reduce the incentive. 

Globalisation is necessarily blind to the idea of political accountability because none exists at the planetary level. Yet the crisis has challenged the idea that we should all unthinkingly follow the logic of the bond market. When the crunch came, we discovered that national taxpayers still stand behind banks, and national insolvency regimes matter. A more rules-based exchange rate system is not inconceivable. This might seek to put some curbs on capital movements?especially at times of economic stress.

And, in this new climate, national politicians are likely to reach for ideas and influences that until recently would have seemed exotic. The idea, for example, that economic growth does not, beyond a certain point, make people happier. David Cameron, a market-friendly Conservative, has talked about the importance of general wellbeing as an alternative to the mania for economic growth. Rich countries could probably abandon the globalist project without much damage to their material standards and with possible gain to their quality of life. Rejecting the inevitability of market-based globalisation would not necessarily be harmful?especially if it were accompanied by a reassertion of democracy at a national level. This is not a pipe dream. New Zealand, which was the first country to attempt to become a post-national nation state in the 1980s with a radical programme of privatisation and deregulation, changed tack in 1999. The electorate endorsed an
 interventionist government devoted to raising taxes, reimposing economic regulations and establishing a stable private sector. It happened because reform failed to deliver the goods. Other countries may follow suit if the political costs of maintaining a global economy are seen as too high. Rich countries surely have a duty to help poor countries, but not at the expense of an awful way of life.

"Well-behaved" markets should not only be more stable, they should be more morally acceptable. It is indefensible for a top American CEO to earn 367 times more than the average worker (against 40 times in the 1970s). Part of the swing-back in political economy will be to use the tax system to redress the balance between capital and impotent labour.
The crisis has rightly led to a revival of interest in Keynes. But he was a moralist as well as an economist. He believed that material wellbeing is a necessary condition of the good life, but that beyond a certain standard of comfort, its pursuit can produce corruption, both for the individual and for society. 

He reunited economics with ethics by taking us back to the primary question: what is wealth for? The good life was one to be lived in harmony with nature and our fellows. Yet "we destroy the beauty of the countryside because the unappropriated splendours of nature have no economic value. We are capable of shutting off the sun and the stars because they do not pay a dividend." Not everything should be sacrificed for efficiency. And Keynes was a liberal nationalist. 

In terms of our pendulum analogy, he was someone who instinctively sought an equipoise: not in the timeless equilibrium of classical economics, but in a balance in political economy between freedom and control, national and international wellbeing, efficiency and morality. He was an Aristotelian, who believed that vices are virtues carried to excess. This is a good philosophy for today.

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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 16 11:09:42 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:09:42 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Bank shares dive amid turbulence
Message-ID: <783724.62245.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Bank shares dive amid turbulence

55 mins ago 

Print Story 

Banking shares tumbled as fears that more financial institutions would look for Government cash caused fresh turbulence in the sector. Skip related content



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Related content


London stocks close higher 
Circuit City to liquidate, affecting 30,000 employees 
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Have your say: Financial Crisis
Barclays shares were down more than 24% at one point, while Royal Bank of Scotland - which is almost 60% owned by the UK taxpayer - saw declines of more than 16%.
The falls come on a day that US financial giant Citigroup announced it had suffered a quarterly loss of 8.29 billion US dollars (?5.5 billion), following news that Bank of America was granted 20 billion dollars (?13.7 billion) in State aid.
In Ireland, Anglo Irish Bank is to be nationalised by the Irish Government after a dramatic announcement on Thursday night, while the UK is reportedly thrashing out proposals for another round of bank rescue measures.
UK banking stocks had earlier shown signs of recovery having suffered a week of steep falls, but those reversed towards the end of the day.
The falls come on the day that the ban on short-selling - imposed by the Financial Services Authority last September - expired.
Confidence in the financial sector has collapsed recently, with fears ahead of the forthcoming results season.
There are concerns that the sector is set to announce yet more hefty writedowns on bad debts which could wipe out the Government's ?37 billion capital cash injection.
Both RBS and Barclays lost around 40% of their share price this week. And there was speculation in the market that Barclays might not benefit from UK Government help after turning it down last year. HSBC, which also snubbed the bail-out but is widely rumoured to be next in line to call on State aid, has sunk 16% in the past week.
Meanwhile, Lloyds TSB saw its shares topple 30% this week as it gears up for the finalisation of its merger with HBOS on Monday. It is understood that ministers are planning an urgent bank package, which could pave the way for more taxpayer money to be pumped into the sector to offset losses on soaring bad debts.

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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 16 11:32:07 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:32:07 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Bank shares dive amid turbulence
Message-ID: <730563.75200.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Bank shares dive amid turbulence

1 hour 18 mins ago 

Print Story 

Banking shares tumbled as fears that more financial institutions would look for Government cash caused fresh turbulence in the sector. Skip related content



Related photos / videos

 Bank shares dive amid turbulence 


Related content


London stocks close higher 
Circuit City to liquidate, affecting 30,000 employees 
Honda announcement adds to jobs woe 
Related Hot Topic: Financial Crisis 

Have your say: Financial Crisis
Barclays shares were down more than 24% at one point, while Royal Bank of Scotland - which is almost 60% owned by the UK taxpayer - saw declines of more than 16%.
The falls come on a day that US financial giant Citigroup announced it had suffered a quarterly loss of 8.29 billion US dollars (?5.5 billion), following news that Bank of America was granted 20 billion dollars (?13.7 billion) in State aid.
In Ireland, Anglo Irish Bank is to be nationalised by the Irish Government after a dramatic announcement on Thursday night, while the UK is reportedly thrashing out proposals for another round of bank rescue measures.
UK banking stocks had earlier shown signs of recovery having suffered a week of steep falls, but those reversed towards the end of the day.
The falls come on the day that the ban on short-selling - imposed by the Financial Services Authority last September - expired.
Confidence in the financial sector has collapsed recently, with fears ahead of the forthcoming results season.
There are concerns that the sector is set to announce yet more hefty writedowns on bad debts which could wipe out the Government's ?37 billion capital cash injection.
Both RBS and Barclays lost around 40% of their share price this week. And there was speculation in the market that Barclays might not benefit from UK Government help after turning it down last year. HSBC, which also snubbed the bail-out but is widely rumoured to be next in line to call on State aid, has sunk 16% in the past week.
Meanwhile, Lloyds TSB saw its shares topple 30% this week as it gears up for the finalisation of its merger with HBOS on Monday. It is understood that ministers are planning an urgent bank package, which could pave the way for more taxpayer money to be pumped into the sector to offset losses on soaring bad debts.

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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 16 11:46:31 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:46:31 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Schumpeter Rising
Message-ID: <380546.59025.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All,
?
?????????? This may be of interest...
?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00glndm
?
?
R.Searle


      
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From rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com  Fri Jan 16 12:06:02 2009
From: rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com (Rodney Shakespeare)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 19:06:02 -0000
Subject: [GJM] Schumpeter Rising
References: <380546.59025.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004601c9780d$7a60c500$0301a8c0@your447023ae6b>

Robert,
But, in pressnt circumstances, the innovators cannot raise the money and, even if they could, where is the demand?  

A collapse is happening and that hedge fund manage who is rabbiting on about Schumpeter does not understand what is happening, and why, and what to do about it.

Rodney Shakespeare.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: robert searle 
  To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net 
  Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 6:46 PM
  Subject: [GJM] Schumpeter Rising



        Dear All,

                   This may be of interest...

        http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00glndm


        R.Searle 




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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jan 17 06:23:44 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:23:44 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] "Flash mob" potesters head for heathrow
Message-ID: <39766.26727.qm@web27405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

'Flash mob' protesters head for Heathrow

4 hours 36 mins ago 

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Hundreds of activists opposed to a third runway at Heathrow are to launch a "flash mob" protest inside one of the airport's terminals. Skip related content



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The action will be the first sign of the mass protests expected to greet the Government's controversial go-ahead for the expansion.
Several environmental, climate change and local residents' groups - including those from the village of Sipson, which will be bulldozed to make way for the new runway - have come together to organise the demonstration.
Transport Secretary Geoff Hoon announced the Government's decision on Thursday.
Jonathan Stevenson, one of those taking part, said: "This flash mob is bringing together the residents of Sipson, normal citizens who are concerned about climate change and direct action groups.
"We are all combining our tactics to make sure that the third runway never happens. This is just the beginning."
Meanwhile, activists behind an annual climate change camp have threatened to close down Heathrow to try to stop a third runway being built.
The group pointed out that at the 2007 camp, which was held near Heathrow, about 2,000 people decided not to shut the airport itself, but target BAA's offices.
"The Heathrow decision makes the option of shutting down the world's busiest airport a potential next step in the escalating campaign to stop the runway being built," said one of the activists.

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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jan 17 06:29:17 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:29:17 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Brown urges banks to come clean on loans
Message-ID: <212539.22945.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Brown urges banks to come clean over loans?

2 hours 32 mins ago Peter Griffiths 

Print Story 

Banks must reveal the true scale of their bad assets to help revive frozen global credit markets, Prime Minister Gordon Brown said on Saturday as officials met bank chiefs to thrash out a new rescue package. Skip related content



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In an interview with the Financial Times, Brown said any recovery from the worst economic turmoil in 70 years will depend on banks first writing off toxic loans to try to restore confidence in the financial system.
His government is expected to announce new measures early next week to boost bank lending in an attempt to help Britain avoid a painful, deep recession.
Despite a multi-billion pound bank bailout last year and a series of record rate cuts, banks remain unwilling to increase lending as they try to boost their coffers and avoid risk.
Shares in the biggest banks plummeted on Friday on fears of more write-downs and the return of short-selling after a temporary ban. Barclays was the worst hit. Its shares closed down 25 percent at 98 pence, the lowest since 1993.
After the markets closed, the bank took the highly unusual step of revealing that it expected pre-tax profits for 2008 to be "well ahead" of analysts' forecasts. Barclays is not due to report its annual results until February 17.
Brown is eager to get banks to increase lending to businesses and households after a series of bleak figures on trade, unemployment and the housing market.
"One of the necessary elements for the next stage is for people to have a clear understanding that bad assets have been written off," Brown told the newspaper. "We have got to be clear that where we have got clearly bad assets, I expect them to be dealt with."
Government officials and executives from big banks were meeting over the weekend to discuss possible new measures to boost bank lending, a Treasury source said.
A spokesman for Brown declined to comment further on the banking talks, referring reporters to the Financial Times interview.
Details of the latest rescue plan are expected to be unveiled within days and could include state guarantees of mortgage-backed securities, the Treasury source added.
The taxpayer may end up underwriting 200 billion pounds of bad banking debt, the Daily Telegraph newspaper reported on Saturday, citing unnamed sources.
In the United States, the government extended $20 billion (13 billion pounds) of new aid to Bank of America, which along with Citigroup, reported huge losses on Friday.
Brown held talks on the crisis with Chancellor Alistair Darling, Bank of England Governor Mervyn King and the Financial Services Authority's chairman Adair Turner.
With an election due before May next year, Brown is under pressure to prove he is the right leader to handle the crisis.
Although his poll ratings rose in the early days of the turmoil, the former finance minister has recently lost more ground to the Conservative Party.
Brown repeated his call for an international response to the crisis and said he would visit "a lot of countries in the next few weeks" for talks about the crisis.
"The greatest risk after the events of the last few months is a retreat into what I would call financial isolationism," he told the newspaper.
?

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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jan 17 06:31:24 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:31:24 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Barclays move to bolster confidence
Message-ID: <600322.31865.qm@web27405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Barclays move to bolster confidence

5 hours 31 mins ago 

Print Story 

Barclays is hoping that an attempt to shore up investor confidence has worked after the value of its shares plummeted during a frantic hour of trading. Skip related content



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The banking giant's shares were down more than 24% at one point on Friday, but its board said in a statement that it knew "no justification for the fall".
The statement said next month the bank expected to report that profits before tax for 2008 were "well ahead" of the ?5.3 billion forecast by analysts.
Earlier this week, Barclays announced it planned to cut more than 4,000 jobs across its retail and commercial and investment banking businesses.
Royal Bank of Scotland - which is almost 60% owned by the UK taxpayer - was also hit by diving shares on Friday, with declines of more than 16%.
The turbulence in the sector followed speculation that more financial institutions would look for Government cash.
The falls came on a day that US financial giant Citigroup announced it had suffered a quarterly loss of 8.29 billion US dollars (?5.5 billion), following news that Bank of America was granted 20 billion dollars (?13.7 billion) in State aid.
In Ireland, Anglo Irish Bank is to be nationalised by the Irish Government after a dramatic announcement on Thursday night, while the UK is reportedly thrashing out proposals for another round of bank rescue measures.
The tumbling share prices also came on the day that the ban on short-selling - imposed by the Financial Services Authority last September - expired.
Confidence in the financial sector has collapsed recently, with fears ahead of the forthcoming results season.

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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jan 17 06:41:45 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:41:45 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [Hgs] [UMKCLEE-URPE] petition letter for full employment
In-Reply-To: <9A72753A447165498D6B63479DB2E7C905C6F100@KC-MSX3.kc.umkc.edu>
Message-ID: <119043.54425.qm@web27407.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?Dear All,
?
?Might be of interest?
?
???? Robert Searle

--- On Fri, 16/1/09, Lee, Frederic <leefs at UMKC.EDU> wrote:

From: Lee, Frederic <leefs at UMKC.EDU>
Subject: [Hgs] [UMKCLEE-URPE] petition letter for full employment
To: UMKCLEE-URPE at LISTSERV.UMKC.EDU
Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 3:30 PM








?
Dear colleagues,
?
I have been asked to send out the petition letter which is below.? Information about the petition letter was at the ICAPE booth at the ASSA.? But in case you missed it, here it is again. The petition is sponsored by members and supporters of the Economists for Full Employment Network and will be sent to President-elect Obama?s administration and members of the U.S. Congress urging them to take concrete steps to ensure that the announced economic stimulus initiative lives up to its promise of job creation.
?
The petition proposes action:
?

To ensure that jobs created are accessible by women as well as youth, minorities and the poor;
To ensure that the job creation initiative includes social services and community upgrading, alongside infrastructure development, technology and green jobs;
To ensure that all proposed projects are designed, evaluated and monitored from the standpoint of their employment impact;
To set up consultative mechanisms which involve civil society, women's organizations, trade unions and employers' associations; and
To provide a forum for sharing international experiences on public job creation.
?
The petition is posted on?www.economistsforfullemployment.org.
?
Petition to support and contribute to the design and implementation
of the Job Creation initiative, part of the economic stimulus plan proposed
by the Incoming Administration of President-elect Obama
Sponsored by: Economists for Full Employment Network
?
PETITION LETTER POSTED ON JANUARY 10, 2009
AT http://www.economistsforfullemployment.org ?(EFE)
?
President-elect Obama and his incoming administration have announced
an ambitious and visionary plan for job creation through infrastructure
investments, green jobs and technology development. We applaud this
initiative.
Yet, in addition to these proposed areas of job creation, there are vast
numbers of hidden vacancies in social care and community development
desperately needed and waiting to be filled. Furthermore, unused and
underutilized labor resources can and should be mobilized in ways that
promote equitable employment opportunities for women, youth and
minorities while improving life in our communities.
Making the best use of public funds will require consultations with civil
society and careful selection of projects for maximum direct
employment impact and for indirect benefits through economic and
social revival in our communities.
Many Economists, joined by other concerned Social Scientists, Policy
Makers and Development Practitioners, have signed the petition already
(see below). Join us in encouraging Congress and the in-coming U.S.
Administration to ensure that the promise of job creation is kept for all
of society and that community upgrading is at the heart of the job
creation initiative. HELP US PUT THE ISSUE ON THE POLICY AGENDA!
?
Best Regards,
Rania Antonopoulos, The Levy Economics Institute of Bard College, Research Scholar;
Economists for Full Employment Network (EFE), Principle Coordinator
?
Steven K. Miller, International Labour Office (retired); New School University, Global
Program International Affairs; Economists for Full Employment (EFE), Co-coordinator
?
Professor Frederic S. Lee
Department of Economics
University of Missouri-Kansas City
5100 Rockhill Road
Kansas City, Missouri? 64110
USA
E-mail:? leefs at umkc.edu
Book Series Editor of "Routledge Advances in Heterodox Economics"
For Heterodox Economics Newsletter:? http://www.heterodoxnews.com
For the Association for Heterodox Economics:? http://www.hetecon.com
International Confederation of Associations for Pluralism in Economics (ICAPE):? http://icape.org
For current and previous issues of the HEN see 'news' section of http://www.hetecon.com
?----- 
To be removed from this mailing list, please send an email message to the address leefs at umkc.edu asking to be removed from this list. Problems or questions should be directed to sullivanmw at umkc.edu. 
&*TO; _______________________________________________
HGS mailing list
HGS at lists.econ.utah.edu
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/hgs



      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jan 17 08:39:49 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 15:39:49 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] A Daily Telegraph Article...................
Message-ID: <167077.36200.qm@web27404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



?
?
Dear All,
???????????????????? This I think may be of interest.
?
R.Searle
?
?200bn to save banks from bad debt 
The taxpayer will be forced to underwrite up to ?200 billion of bad banking debt under a government plan to take control of assets belonging to Britain's major high street lenders, The Daily Telegraph can disclose. 

?


By Katherine Griffiths and Andrew Porter 
Last Updated: 1:36PM GMT 17 Jan 2009

In an attempt to restore confidence within the financial sector, the Treasury will tell the banks of its plan on Saturday. It aims to announce details of the rescue package publicly early next week. 
The bad bank plan has climbed the political agenda in the past couple of weeks as the Government has become aware of the extent of the lenders' bad debts. 
Sources said that a bad bank would have to take on about ?200?billion of toxic assets. That would take the Government's total commitment to solving the banking crisis to almost ?1?trillion in taxpayers' money that has either been spent or pledged. 
That equates to about ?33,000 per taxpayer. The total sum is equivalent to more than two-thirds of Britain's annual GDP of ?1.4 trillion. 
The ?1 trillion figure includes the ?500 billion announced in October to buy shares in the banks and to guarantee their debt. It also includes a further ?100 billion fund, which will also be announced next week as part of the rescue package, to provide the banks with cash to lend to ordinary customers and businesses. 
As well as creating a bad bank, the Government is planning to use Northern Rock as a "good bank" which can dramatically increase lending to individuals and businesses. 
The banking crisis has deepened in recent days on both sides of the Atlantic. Barclays shares fell by 25 per cent yesterday on fears that the Government would force it to take part in the bad bank. Citigroup said it was to split itself in two to ring-fence its failing assets after disclosing ?20 billion of losses in the past 15 months. Bank of America received a ?14 billion cash injection from the US government. 
In the US, similar government measures are being discussed, with officials looking at either the prospect of a "bad bank" scenario, or extending individual guarantees to banks that need them. 
The situation has been being assessed by members of outgoing President George W. Bush's administration in recent weeks, in close contact with members of President-elect Barack Obama's transition team, who will take over the US Treasury and other key departments after his inauguration on Tuesday. 
As he finalises the details of the rescue plan with the Treasury, Gordon Brown will this weekend attack the "irresponsible" lending of British banks to foreign nationals and overseas companies. 
City sources said last night that the talks over the setting up of a bad bank were "highly complex" and that there was still strong opposition among banks to the Government enforcing a compulsory seizure of their assets. 
A more attractive option for the banks would be to keep the assets on their own balance sheets but ring-fenced. The Government could then offer a guarantee on those assets in order to provide confidence to investors. 
The more likely option ? which is favoured by the Treasury and City regulator, the Financial Services Authority ? is to create a toxic bank. They see this as the best way to cleanse the banking system and set it on a path to recovery. 
Banking sources said they expected to be given an outline of what the Government plans to do on Saturday afternoon. There will then be intensive negotiations between the Treasury and individual banks over which assets must be put into the bad bank and at what price. The process could take several weeks to complete. 
The major users of the toxic bank will include Royal Bank of Scotland, in which the Government already has a 60 per cent holding. RBS is understood to have been forced to write off a ?2.5?billion loan to a Russian oligarch. 
Lloyds TSB, which has bought rival HBOS, will also take part in the scheme. HBOS was forced to sell itself to Lloyds last year after buckling under massive losses in its corporate lending book. The Government owns 43 per cent of the enlarged Lloyds bank. 
More controversial will be the position of Barclays and HSBC. Neither bank took cash from the Government as part of the October bail-out, and Barclays instead raised money from a group of Middle Eastern investors. 
However, it is believed that they will be forced to join the bad bank so that the entire banking system can be shown to be purged of problematic investments. 
The Government will keep the toxic assets in the bad bank and, when the economy improves, will hope to sell them off over time. 
The other key aspect of the rescue plan is the ?100?billion in Government-backed loans that will be offered to banks. 
The money will be used by banks to fund new loans for home owners and businesses. 
The package is effectively a way of underwriting bank lending. Taxpayers' money could be at risk if home owners or businesses fail to repay their debts to the banks and the banks therefore struggle to repay the Government. 
The latest rescue package comes after Mr Brown introduced a ?500?billion package of aid for the financial sector in October. Despite the scale of that package, business leaders say banks are still not lending freely, threatening many companies with collapse. 
Government insiders say the banks are refusing to lend because of the scale of their toxic assets ? loans based on properties whose prices have collapsed ? and face further major losses in the coming months. 
Downing Street has been angered by the mounting evidence that there was widespread reckless lending by the high street banks that precipitated last year's financial crisis. Mr Brown is understood to be concerned that up to 80 per cent of the bad debts at some banks were to foreign companies or individuals. 
There were signs last night that America was looking at a similar "toxic bank" scheme. Advisers to Barack Obama, the President-elect, are reportedly considering such proposals. 




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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jan 17 08:48:29 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 15:48:29 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Schumpeter Rising
Message-ID: <512104.16289.qm@web27405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Sat, 17/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [GJM] Schumpeter Rising
To: "Rodney Shakespeare" <rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com>
Date: Saturday, 17 January, 2009, 1:21 PM







Dear Rodney,
?
???????????? I just put this link up for interest sake. Personally, I thought the??presentation of the economic ideas of Schumpeter was essentially over-the-top ofcourse. Now, if he had lived in the 21st Century, and had tried to lay the foundations of TFE....that would be an ahievement of a very high, or indeed, of the highest?order in the world of economics......................
?
Incidently, in TFE deflation would probably never occur as the process of sustainable economic growth is always expanding on a local, national, and international scale!! 
?
?
Robert Searle.?
?


--- On Fri, 16/1/09, Rodney Shakespeare <rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com> wrote:

From: Rodney Shakespeare <rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: [GJM] Schumpeter Rising
To: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk, "Discussion Forum for Global Justice" <discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>
Date: Friday, 16 January, 2009, 7:06 PM


? 


Robert,
But, in pressnt circumstances, the innovators cannot raise the money and, even if they could, where is the demand?? 
?
A collapse is happening and that hedge fund manage who is rabbiting on about Schumpeter does not understand what is happening, and why, and?what to do about it.
?
Rodney Shakespeare.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: robert searle 
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 6:46 PM
Subject: [GJM] Schumpeter Rising






?
Dear All,
?
?????????? This may be of interest...
?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00glndm
?
?
R.Searle




_______________________________________________
Discussion mailing list
Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
http://globaljusticemovement.net/mailman/listinfo/discussion_globaljusticemovement.net




      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jan 18 04:18:37 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:18:37 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] The future of this movement
In-Reply-To: <880c69f6f80927ae50fd1595ac720195@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <212065.40049.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Sat, 17/1/09, Barack Obama <info at barackobama.com> wrote:

From: Barack Obama <info at barackobama.com>
Subject: The future of this movement
To: "Robert Searle" <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Saturday, 17 January, 2009, 4:01 PM






Robert --

I have some exciting news to share about the future of this grassroots movement.

I recorded a personal message for you. Please take a minute to watch the video:




http://my.barackobama.com/thefuture

What you built can't stop now. Together with our partners at the Democratic National Committee and its new chairman, Governor Tim Kaine, this movement will continue organizing and bringing new people into the political process.

The challenges facing our country are too great, and our journey to change America is just beginning.

I look forward to working side-by-side with you in the months and years ahead.

Thanks,

Barack 



?



Paid for by Obama for America
This email was sent to: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
To unsubscribe, go to: http://my.barackobama.com/unsubscribe
? 


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jan 18 04:21:27 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:21:27 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Book on Monetary reform
In-Reply-To: <COL113-W80B3808C02C5FDC440ED4DA5D50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <669469.42315.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Sat, 17/1/09, helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Book on Monetary reform
To: "Socialcreditlist" <socialcredit at elistas.com>
Date: Saturday, 17 January, 2009, 3:41 AM




#yiv1248227782 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv1248227782 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

Thanks Martin,
I did some digging on the net related to Frederick Soddy, and Voila!, a pearl was revealed:
http://www.archive.org/details/roleofmoney032861mbp
As a Nobel Prize in Chemistry winner, Frederick Soddy has impeccable intellectual credentials and has written several books on economics which were predictably largely ignored by the establishment.
You can download this book freely from www.archive.org as I did.
The Theory of Social Credit is not just an invention by C.H.Douglas. It is a fundamental truth that exposes the present economic system for what it is.
Regards,
Helge


> From: jmartinh at shaw.ca
> To: socialcredit at elistas.com
> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:42:01 -0700
> Subject: [socialcredit] Book on Monetary reform
> 
> Just to call your attention to a recent book "National Economy - The Way to 
> Abundance" by Arian Forrest Nevin. I attach a review I have prepared. More 
> information at www.nationaleconomy.net . Note that it is based on the 
> writings of Frederick Soddy, apparently without knoledge of the works of 
> Major Douglas.
> 
> Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St.,
> EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
> Phone & Fax (780) 483-5442
> e-mail <jmartinh at shaw.ca>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> I am using the free version of SPAMfighter.
> We are a community of 5.8 million users fighting spam.
> SPAMfighter has removed 19332 of my spam emails to date.
> Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
> 
> The Professional version does not have this message
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
> You're subscribed to this list with the email helgenome at hotmail.com
> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit



Share your holiday memories for free with Windows LiveT Photos. Get started now. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit




      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jan 18 04:23:40 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:23:40 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Book on Monetary reform
In-Reply-To: <memo.764067@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <10130.4019.qm@web27406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Sun, 18/1/09, Kenneth Palmerton <kenpalmerton at cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote:

From: Kenneth Palmerton <kenpalmerton at cix.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Book on Monetary reform
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Cc: kenpalmerton at cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Sunday, 18 January, 2009, 12:50 AM

In-Reply-To: <COL113-W80B3808C02C5FDC440ED4DA5D50 at phx.gbl>
Hi Helge.

Frederick Soddy bathed in academic approval and was accorded impeccable 
credentials, until the day he applied his scientific intelligence, and 
attacked the money power :-(((

His reputation was given a cowardly make over, and he was branded an idiot 
that did not know what he was talking about.

And his was a Nobel Laureate in a discipline that fully deserved the 
accolade. Not like the Mickey Mouse gongs that are handed out in the name 
of "Economics" :-(

Eventually he died a broken man. His writings became more embittered, and 
less coherent.

His treatment, in my opinion, is one of academias greatest scandals.

He deserves reinstatement to the highest esteem.

Ken. 







      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jan 18 04:57:34 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:57:34 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Wikispaces Message: TFE, Huh?
In-Reply-To: <20090117172944.F0951E0C06A@w11.wikispaces.com>
Message-ID: <37445.52320.qm@web27402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

? Dear Allen Papapetrou,
?
??????????????? Thank you for your response. Yes, TFE is still a project in development. At first it can be difficult to understand in "simplified" form as it is essentially a new paradigm which contradicts our "normal" understanding of capital. In this respect, it can be a baffling but it is not the stuff of nonsense, and it does have its own logic. TFE is also? very similiar to Social Credit.
?
Similiarly, MDS is a new paradigm, and if true would form the basis of ALL science, and the arts...as everything comes from within...as I am sure you know!! 
?
For the time being, I would suggest you wait for my updated TFE entry, and it should give you a clearer understanding. If not you are welcome if you have time to ask questions via the email. I post this update to you when I am ready, and this would be just come about before the end of this coming week.
?
Regards.
?
Robert Searle.
?
?


--- On Sat, 17/1/09, Wikispaces <do-not-reply at wikispaces.com> wrote:

From: Wikispaces <do-not-reply at wikispaces.com>
Subject: Wikispaces Message: TFE, Huh?
To: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Saturday, 17 January, 2009, 5:29 PM




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AllenPapapetrou, a member of Wikispaces, has sent you a message. Please visit the url below to respond; do not reply to this email.
Aloha Robert,

I read your interesting posting of 17 Jan to the Austrians discussion on the model-economy where you mention TFE. I find the idea fascinating. And confusing! For example, on the p2pfoundation.net web site you write: 

"There are a number of key points which make the concept of new non-repayable money acceptable along with its earned counterpart.

i) All money originates from an unearned source of creation. As such from an objective viewpoint it has equal value to its earned counterpart as it would be legal tender."

If ALL money originates from an unearned source of creation then how can an earned counterpart even exist. ALL is inclusive. Thus there can be no source outside of "unearned".

So, I must be missing something which to you may be obvious, and which I might be interested in exploring. With your assistance.

I found a number of statements in your pdpfoundation.net Transformational Economics article incomprehensible, yet intriguing. I would like to research TFE and rewrite your concepts in a "TFE for Dummies" article or series of articles.

This project would require your assistance in correcting my text wrt deviations from your concepts.

I'm a retired Computer Systems Programmer. The only thing I do for money is breath. My funds come from county, state and federal retirement income. I have created several commercial web sites for others since I retired. All my work was unconditional, without any requirement or expectation of repayment.

I have desire for no fame or fortune. If you decide to assist me all of the writings are yours. I prefer to work anonymously - no public credit for my contributions.

My name came up in the model-economy wiki because of the enforced public nature of the wiki. I joined model-economy because of my interaction with Ellen Brown. I left because of my interaction with John Gelles and Ellen's inability to oversee the wiki because she has other current commitments.

I live in the USA on the Hawaiian island of Kauai. I'm 62. I have degrees in Astronomy, Mathematics, and Psychology. I have an abiding interest in Applied Spirituality and Vedanta. I also found the MDS writeup in your bio at kheper.net facinating and would like to explore MDS after TFE.

Are you interesting in assisting me in "TFE for Dummies"? If so, where to start?

Mahalo Nui Loa ("Thanks So Much" in Hawaiian),
Allen 


View this message in your browser
To turn off email followups, sign in at http://www.wikispaces.com/, click on My Account and switch "Email When You Receive a Message" to "No". Please email help at wikispaces.com if you have any questions.


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jan 18 05:00:03 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 12:00:03 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] APOLOGIES PRIVATE MAIL SENT BY MISTAKE..Wikispaces
	Message: TFE, Huh?
In-Reply-To: <37445.52320.qm@web27402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <750556.46787.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


? Dear All,
?
??????????? This communication was sent in error. It was a private email, and can be removed by the moderator...
?
R.Searle
?
?

--- On Sun, 18/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [GJM] Wikispaces Message: TFE, Huh?
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Sunday, 18 January, 2009, 11:57 AM







? Dear Allen Papapetrou,
?
??????????????? Thank you for your response. Yes, TFE is still a project in development. At first it can be difficult to understand in "simplified" form as it is essentially a new paradigm which contradicts our "normal" understanding of capital. In this respect, it can be a baffling but it is not the stuff of nonsense, and it does have its own logic. TFE is also? very similiar to Social Credit.
?
Similiarly, MDS is a new paradigm, and if true would form the basis of ALL science, and the arts...as everything comes from within...as I am sure you know!! 
?
For the time being, I would suggest you wait for my updated TFE entry, and it should give you a clearer understanding. If not you are welcome if you have time to ask questions via the email. I post this update to you when I am ready, and this would be just come about before the end of this coming week.
?
Regards.
?
Robert Searle.
?
?


--- On Sat, 17/1/09, Wikispaces <do-not-reply at wikispaces.com> wrote:

From: Wikispaces <do-not-reply at wikispaces.com>
Subject: Wikispaces Message: TFE, Huh?
To: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Saturday, 17 January, 2009, 5:29 PM




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AllenPapapetrou, a member of Wikispaces, has sent you a message. Please visit the url below to respond; do not reply to this email.
Aloha Robert,

I read your interesting posting of 17 Jan to the Austrians discussion on the model-economy where you mention TFE. I find the idea fascinating. And confusing! For example, on the p2pfoundation.net web site you write: 

"There are a number of key points which make the concept of new non-repayable money acceptable along with its earned counterpart.

i) All money originates from an unearned source of creation. As such from an objective viewpoint it has equal value to its earned counterpart as it would be legal tender."

If ALL money originates from an unearned source of creation then how can an earned counterpart even exist. ALL is inclusive. Thus there can be no source outside of "unearned".

So, I must be missing something which to you may be obvious, and which I might be interested in exploring. With your assistance.

I found a number of statements in your pdpfoundation.net Transformational Economics article incomprehensible, yet intriguing. I would like to research TFE and rewrite your concepts in a "TFE for Dummies" article or series of articles.

This project would require your assistance in correcting my text wrt deviations from your concepts.

I'm a retired Computer Systems Programmer. The only thing I do for money is breath. My funds come from county, state and federal retirement income. I have created several commercial web sites for others since I retired. All my work was unconditional, without any requirement or expectation of repayment.

I have desire for no fame or fortune. If you decide to assist me all of the writings are yours. I prefer to work anonymously - no public credit for my contributions.

My name came up in the model-economy wiki because of the enforced public nature of the wiki. I joined model-economy because of my interaction with Ellen Brown. I left because of my interaction with John Gelles and Ellen's inability to oversee the wiki because she has other current commitments.

I live in the USA on the Hawaiian island of Kauai. I'm 62. I have degrees in Astronomy, Mathematics, and Psychology. I have an abiding interest in Applied Spirituality and Vedanta. I also found the MDS writeup in your bio at kheper.net facinating and would like to explore MDS after TFE.

Are you interesting in assisting me in "TFE for Dummies"? If so, where to start?

Mahalo Nui Loa ("Thanks So Much" in Hawaiian),
Allen 


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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jan 18 07:33:51 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 14:33:51 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] More on the Banking Crisis!!
Message-ID: <634224.24983.qm@web27405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Taxpayers poised to take on 'toxic' debts as Government throws another ?200bn lifeline to High Street banks 
By Simon Watkins and Simon Walters
Last updated at 1:02 PM on 18th January 2009



Comments (145) 
Add to My Stories 

Taxpayers will be left exposed to ?200billion in potential losses under the biggest Government bailout yet for Britain?s banks ? due to be announced tomorrow.
Chancellor Alistair Darling will underwrite ?toxic? assets built up by the banks during the credit boom which are now seen as high risk.
If companies and individuals default on these debts, the taxpayer will be left to foot the bill.
 
Gamble: Gordon Brown (left) and Chancellor Alastair Darling are risking taxpayer's money to bailout the banks
The latest lifeline for the City ? put to bank bosses late yesterday ? came as Gordon Brown vented his fury with the banks for lending vast sums to foreign investors who are now unable to pay the money back.

?

More...

JOHN REDWOOD: The problem is our banks are bigger than we are 
MAIL ON SUNDAY COMMENT: We must force the money men to lend again 
Brown's fury at Royal Bank of Scotland's ?2.5bn loan to Russian oligarch 
Taxpayers fork out ?60,000 for Minister's dinner party ... to discuss the credit crunch 
Billions are earmarked for second banking bail-out 

Treasury officials checking the books of the Royal Bank of Scotland, now controlled by the Government, were shocked to discover that ?2.5billion had been loaned to Russian oligarch Leonid Blavatnik in his attempt to build a massive business empire.
The RBS has had to write off the entire debt because one of Mr Blavatnik?s foreign companies faces going bust ? with British taxpayers left to pay the price.
Mr Brown believes some banks have deliberately concealed the scale of their bad assets. 
He said: ?We have to be clear that where we have got clearly bad assets, I expect them to be dealt with.? 
Details of the rescue package will not include the widely expected ?bad bank?, which would buy up toxic loans from banks. 
Other elements of the bailout would include an indefinite extension of the Special Liquidity Scheme (SLS), which allows banks to swap their loans for Government bonds, guaranteeing mortgages in an effort to kick-start the housing market, and possible protection for the finance arms of leading car-makers who provide loans to customers to buy their cars.
Ministers believe this is more effective than providing a multi-billion-pound bailout for individual car firms.
Bank bosses have been asked to give the measures their consideration, but Ministers are so angry with the banks that it is thought they will have little choice but to rubber-stamp them.
 
The Royal Bank of Scotland lost ?2.5billion that had been loaned to Russian oligarch Leonid Blavatnik
The Treasury had also prepared plans for a ?bad bank? to use Government money to buy the toxic assets from the banks, freeing them to increase lending to companies and homebuyers. 
However, while the measure has not been ruled out for ever, the difficulties in valuing the assets to be bought and what assets could qualify mean the scheme has been put on hold.
A senior banking source involved in the new rescue package said: ?You should look more to the American solutions seen last week.?
The comment was a reference to a huge bailout of US banks, including a massive asset guarantee plan. 

The US authorities injected ?14billion into Bank of America on Friday. Crucially, it also agreed to guarantee ?81billion of toxic assets on its books ? exactly the kind of step anticipated in the UK. 
The rescue comes after UK banks were gripped by a second round of panic selling. 
Shares slumped on Friday, with ?6.6billion wiped from the value of top banks. 
Barclays was forced to issue an emergency statement to reassure investors after its shares fell 25 per cent in the last hour of trading. 

Last year, as leading banks were forced to issue new shares to raise cash, the Treasury acted as underwriter. 
When existing investors shunned the shares, the Treasury was left to buy them, injecting ?37billion into leading banks and ending up as a leading shareholder in the UK banking industry.
 
Cheers: Russian oligarch Leonid Blavatnik could cost British taxpayers ?2.5bn
As a result of that scheme, the Government now owns 58 per cent of Royal Bank of Scotland and almost 44 per cent of Lloyds Banking Group ? the new giant created by Lloyds TSB?s takeover of HBOS. 
Raising these stakes has not been ruled out as another way of injecting cash into the banks. 
Nationalisation is available as a last option ? although, for now, is regarded as unlikely. 
Mr Brown?s latest initiative follows Business Secretary Lord Mandelson?s announcement last week of a ?20billion scheme to guarantee loans made by banks to small and medium-sized companies. 
That was intended to reassure banks they would not face the full impact if a small company went bust, and so encourage them to lend more cash to such businesses.
The plan to guarantee existing toxic assets held by the banks is based on a similar theory, but with hundreds of billions at stake, it dwarfs the small business guarantee scheme.
The new bailout will need approval from the European Union as it is likely to be classed as state aid to industry.
The ?bad bank? idea was put on the back burner after Treasury officials concluded that deciding which assets could qualify to be bought by the ?bad bank? could take months. 
It was also hampered by opposition from some banks. A crucial element would be deciding the price at which the toxic assets were to be bought. 
Too high a price would amount to an over-generous bailout for the bank; too low and the deal could end up doing banks more harm than good because it would force them to put a market value on these bad loans.
Once a market value is established, accounting rules would require the value to be applied across the board, even to those toxic assets that had not been sold to the Government-run ?bad bank?. 
That could have forced banks to recognise billions more in losses in their accounts. 

John Varley, chief executive of Barclays, said last week he believed a ?bad bank? was not the best solution to the crisis.
? 

DM.has("poll");



TODAY'S POLL ? 


Do you trust your bank?
?  Yes 
?  No VOTE     

POLL RESULTS ? 
??Close All polls Click to view yesterday's poll results 
Fears that Barclays could face a massive write-off in value of complex financial assets known as Collateralised Debt Obligations were said by some traders to have contributed to its fall in value on Friday. 
The bank issued a statement saying it knew of no reason for the fall in its shares. 

It added that its profits for the past year ? due to be published next month ? would in fact be higher than the ?5.3billion forecast by City analysts.
Others blamed the Barclays shares rout on the lifting of a ban on short-selling financial stocks which had been in place since October. 

The method of gambling on share price falls was widely blamed for a series of slumps in banks? share prices last summer and autumn, most notably at HBOS. 
The City watchdog, the Financial Services Authority, had banned short-selling of financial company shares.
But that ban expired at midnight on Thursday and some believe the slide in banks shares on Friday was a sign the short-sellers were back with a vengeance.
Liberal Democrat Treasury spokesman Vince Cable lashed out at the FSA for lifting the ban. ?If short-selling results in a wave of panic such that banks go down, then the practical consequence is that taxpayers will have to assume responsibility,? he said.
Vicky Redwood from Capital Economics said: ?We?re going to face a staggering amount of bank losses over the next two or three years as the full impact of the recession is felt and we see household defaults on their debt rise, unemployment rise and corporate debt defaults rise too.
?And so, in total, banks could be facing billions of pounds of bad debts.? 




?

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DM.has("readerComments");DM.has("debate");



View all Add your comments 
Comments (145)
Here's what readers have had to say so far. Why not add your thoughts below?

? ? ? ? 
Desperate measures from a desperate man at the fag end of hope.
Click to rate ? ? Rating ? 17 
- ROGER, BRIGHTON, 18/1/2009 10:04
? ? ? ? 
Idiot Brown is a dead man walking it wont be long now before he is out
Click to rate ? ? Rating ? 21 
- dee, england, 18/1/2009 10:00
? ? ? ? 
This is totally unacceptable let the banks go down why should we pay for badly run businesses with toxic debts. 
Is any one going to pay my debts off no I thought not
Click to rate ? ? Rating ? 19 
- dee, england, 18/1/2009 09:59
? ? ? ? 

Click to rate ? ? Rating ? 


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From maryrose333 at att.net  Sun Jan 18 21:10:47 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 20:10:47 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: Transition US receives seed funding!
Message-ID: <000001c979eb$eb7aaa50$c26ffef0$@net>

This is an important step in the growth of the Transition Movement.  And I
want to keep everyone informed as this is going to be the hub to which you
can turn as an anchor in this time of great change.   When we get it up, the
Future Dawning.org hub will provide you not only  with information on
sustainable living, but as well on human consciousness and its role in
today's world as we progress through this "great turning."      

 

For the first time in the history of the world, science is able to determine
"quality of life indicators" and in accordance, it is now possible to design
both communities and social systems with these factors in mind. Thus
empowering us in designing sustainable living communities while at the same
time enabling us to live more lightly on the Earth.  

 

And, as we move in this direction, eradicating poverty and suffering as we
go, this is going to entail immense changes in life style.  If we look
closely at the social system in place today, it is one which is
"death-defining" rather than "life-enhancing" and necessitates a shift as
the old structures come tumbling down.    

 

Note as you consider this that everything is happening from the grassroots
up and in a self-organizing manner  while government is still attempting to
organize change from the top down.  Who knows - maybe we meet in the middle
and integrate.    But SHIFT is happening.  

 

In an earlier notice today, word was passed that Germany is now part of the
transition movement.  So, get the word out to anyone you know who is living
there.      

 

Of great importance is to keep the information flowing smoothly so no one is
left out.  We don't need any system breakdowns.  Please do your part.    

 

 

From: Pamela Gray [mailto:peak.oil at transitionpenwith.ccsend.com] On Behalf
Of Pamela Gray
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 12:55 PM
To: maryrose333 at att.net
Subject: Transition US receives seed funding!

 


	

 


To all members of the Transition US community:


It is with great pleasure that I write to tell you that we have secured seed
funding to support the growth of the Transition movement in the US. This
funding, which comes as a combination of cash and in-kind services, is being
provided by Post Carbon Institute
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102413753763&e=001KTVm_-pnoy2i4jkXiVEkluTZlOho5f_
_70UkkwWurRGzhxC5fY_TDUC4jeijJGNEGGILbtDADzz-aIl4fzrwFhhtzAF0qoXmyrS6YG71BtF
sg6ruklWFxw==> , with whom we expect to develop a strong strategic alliance.
The agreement not only provides us with funding sufficient to support an
Executive Director but also gives us immediate non-profit status. 

 

Post Carbon Institute will no longer be providing active support to the
Relocalization Network (RN). Instead we will be working with members of the
RN to inspire them to join Transition US, where they will be able to share
their experiences and know-how with other Transition Initiatives. Please
help in the process of welcoming RN members into Transition US and
supporting them in whatever ways you can.


We are in the process of forming a Board of Directors for the non-profit
Transition US. For purposes of moving forward quickly, the initial members
of the Board are to be Pamela Gray and Jennifer Gray, founders of Transition
US, together with Asher Miller, Executive Director of Post Carbon Institute
and Richard Heinberg, Senior Fellow of the Post Carbon Institute. Peter
Lipman, Chair of the Transition Network
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102413753763&e=001KTVm_-pnoy1z3c9-vgA9xaFjAmuYPuC
xyMDBZsSc0QCLN1uv-Su-PxpIDNAU4pdj16A4lL_6S_GM5EE1SZqhTVsV3bQNaSKeswbvOp_u5JO
KXyOSoJAyPKp5CIHj6XXC1q_p8PbkZJ47XOFrEq3DxCyD7yDGnoTv-EYS2TUsY1M=>  Board of
Trustees has been asked and has agreed to join the Transition US Board.
Together with Pamela's participation as a Transition Network Trustee, this
will enable us to stay in close touch with decisions taken in the UK. 


The negotiations for this agreement took place very quickly in the last few
weeks of 2008. It was a surprise to all involved that we could find a way to
work together to the benefit of both organizations without coming across
barriers that would cause delays. Please accept my apologies for not
involving more of you in the decision-making but it was not possible to do
so in the time allowed. In the future we will be posting news of
developments on the Transition US web site. Our web site will be redesigned
and developed over the next few months as a result of the investment. 


Following the tremendous success of the trainings that took place in the
latter part of 2008, and the steady stream of new Transition Initiatives
that are appearing in the US, 2009 will be a year of rapid growth for the US
Transition Movement. We must  nact collectively to prepare our communities
to build resilience in the face of change. By continuing to work together,
sharing ideas, resources and experiences wherever possible, we will be able
to show communities the way to a future that holds the promise of being
happy, healthy and strong.

 

Best wishes and Happy New Year,

 

Pamela
Transition US
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102413753763&e=001KTVm_-pnoy3wDguXW9K3Gw1OD5V2lkI
4GOatff7iWvS1OKuo_Q4T5BvyRaBiikMagBDJL-Wfbjb4jOuqWvsMicw4AbPtxB0cujrOWtTBApj
y6WseQzQ9Tg==> 
 
==================================================
Transition Network - tackling peak oil and climate change together
==================================================
Pamela A Gray, PhD
Trustee, Transition Network
77 Del Casa Drive
Mill Valley, CA 94941

	
	
	



 

 

	

 


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From rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com  Mon Jan 19 03:37:40 2009
From: rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com (Rodney Shakespeare)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 10:37:40 -0000
Subject: [GJM] An interesting tv program
References: <634224.24983.qm@web27405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004401c97a21$f555a530$0301a8c0@your447023ae6b>

Dear All,
You may wish to see an interesting tv program which goes to the heart of the present crisis

Go to
www.PressTV.com
Then (left-hand side) Programs
Then Fine Print
Then program 17th January.

Whilst at the studio I was told that there had also been a television broadcast (not by PressTV) of a lecture on binary economics that was given  at Imperial College, London but it was a rushed situation and I do not know the tv station.

Rodney Shakespeare
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan 19 04:18:17 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 11:18:17 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [nuenergy] 'Green' Gasoline On The Horizon
In-Reply-To: <gkupee+3h5e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <394965.84113.qm@web27407.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Sun, 18/1/09, talkaboutalternativeenergy <talkaboutalternativeenergy at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: talkaboutalternativeenergy <talkaboutalternativeenergy at yahoo.com>
Subject: [nuenergy] 'Green' Gasoline On The Horizon
To: nuenergy at yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 18 January, 2009, 8:32 AM






University of Oklahoma researchers believe newer, more environmentally
friendly fuels produced from biomass could create alternative energy
solutions and alleviate dependence on foreign oil without requiring
changes to current fuel infrastructure systems. According to Lance
Lobban, director of the School of Chemical, Biological and Materials
Engineering, the development of "green" fuels is an important
part of the world's, and Oklahoma's, energy future.

For more story please follow This Link!
http://energy- for-future. blogspot. com/
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Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic 
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From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 19 04:05:57 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:35:57 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] An interesting tv program
In-Reply-To: <004401c97a21$f555a530$0301a8c0@your447023ae6b>
Message-ID: <70547.50420.qm@web94904.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Greetings for peace,
?
May all the usurers get the guidance for ensuring their eternal wellbeing. I could not get the link for the Press TV.
?
Winter is passing by..How is London these day.
?
With prayers for all,
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam

--- On Mon, 19/1/09, Rodney Shakespeare <rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com> wrote:

From: Rodney Shakespeare <rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com>
Subject: [GJM] An interesting tv program
To: "Discussion Forum for Global Justice" <discussion at globaljusticemovement..net>
Date: Monday, 19 January, 2009, 4:07 PM


? 


Dear All,
You may wish to see an interesting tv program which goes to the heart of the present crisis
?

Go to
www.PressTV.com
Then (left-hand side) Programs
Then Fine Print
Then program 17th January.
?
Whilst at the studio I was told that there had also been a television broadcast (not by PressTV) of a lecture on binary economics that?was given ?at Imperial College, London but it was a rushed situation and I do not know the tv station.
?
Rodney Shakespeare_______________________________________________
Discussion mailing list
Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
http://globaljusticemovement.net/mailman/listinfo/discussion_globaljusticemovement.net



      Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan 19 04:40:21 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 11:40:21 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Model-Economy Wikispaces.
Message-ID: <924796.99276.qm@web27407.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All,
?
???????? This may be of interest.
?
?
?? http://model-economy.wikispaces.com/message/view/home/8204902
?
?
Robert Searle


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan 19 09:51:11 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:51:11 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] What the new bail-out means for you..........
Message-ID: <266983.55407.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>





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What the new bail-out means for you

By James Andrews, MSN Money
January 19 2009


-The government has announced a new ?200 billion scheme to save the banking sector less than six months after its last multi-billion-pound attempt. But what is the new plan, why is it needed and what will it mean for you?
The new scheme in detail
Why do they need more government money?
The banks need more cash from the government because they won't lend it to each other. More than that, people who previously invested in banks won't give it to them either. The government's move is an attempt to fill the gap left by the investors and lending between banks.
Haven't we already done this?
You would be forgiven for asking: "Haven't we tried this before?" The simple point to make is that if the storm gets worse, you have to keep bailing a ship out to stop it from sinking. The storm has been getting worse, or, in the government's words: "The global economic downturn [has been] intensifying in the past two months."
Full coverage of the latest bank bailout
Why should banks get more money?
Put simply, banks aren't like other businesses. Firstly, they are intricately linked to one another. If a shop goes bust, it normally doesn't take other shops with it, while banks can drag each other down. Secondly, debt is effectively a utility. Like electricity and water, if the debt supply is cut off the country will stop functioning. Imagine if the banks demanded your mortgage back, cancelled your credit cards and your overdraft and handed your savings back as cash. And then did the same to every business in the UK. The government, simply, cannot let the banks fail.
How much of our money is at stake?
No one is sure exactly how much is at stake. One section of the plan alone is worth ?50 billion, another worth ?100 billion and the total figure likely to be around ?200 billion. That works out at about ?10,000 for each taxpayer in the UK.
Who will get the cash?
UK banks and foreign banks lending to Brits will get the money. The reason foreign banks are included this time around is that Spanish bank Santander now owns Abbey, Alliance & Leicester and half of Bradford & Bingley, meaning excluding foreign banks would create a two-tier system in the UK, with half of banks benefiting and half not.
What's the government offering?
The government is not actually offering ready money to banks. Instead, it is offering to guarantee their lending to each other to promote trust, insure their riskier investments (such as property) and buy up good quality assets banks are having trouble getting rid of. The idea is to make the banks less risky to invest in and to encourage them to start lending to each other, to businesses and directly to the public.
How is the new scheme different from the last one?
The differences between now and October's plan are: the government is not investing directly in banks this time; the government has decided to give new powers to the Bank of England to act directly in future and buy assets from banks in trouble; a new mortgage guarantee scheme - making it easier for banks to lend on homes; and a guarantee for dodgy assets, increasing banks' confidence in each other.
How much in total have we the taxpayers shelled out on bank bailouts so far?
The government has spent ?37 billion directly on the banks - after that everything is conjecture. Bradford & Bingley's mortgage arm has been nationalised, along with all of Northern Rock. Additionally, the government has agreed to guarantee hundreds of billions of pounds of bank lending. Total exposure could be more than ?500 billion - however losing all of this money is incredibly unlikely and the government might well come out of this in profit.
Where is the money coming from? 
The government is not spending this money from its savings or diverting it from other resources. What the government is mostly doing is guaranteeing banks' debts - like a parent guaranteeing a mortgage - and "helping them out" by buying valuable assets from them to give them more ready-money now. The money for buying assets directly from banks will either be borrowed or printed - effectively increasing the number of pounds there are in circulation until the debt that is guaranteed is paid off or the assets sold.
What do we get out of it?
The government is not acting like a charity - it is demanding the banks both "feel the pain" and pay for the privilege of accessing its money. Banks must pay to use the loan guarantee scheme and will be charged interest for money they borrow. Of the bank assets that are guaranteed, not only will there be a charge for the guarantee (like an insurance premium) but the government will not cover the first loss on the asset (like the excess amount on insurance policies) and banks will still front up 10% of all future losses - to ensure they try to avoid them.
Will it help?
Hopefully. The goal here is to get money moving around the system again. Over the last 18 months banks have become less and less willing to lend cash to anyone. This has made mortgages far less available and credit cards, loans and overdrafts more expensive. Businesses have also struggled to get cash to roll-over their existing debts (a process similar to re-mortgaging or balance transfers on credit cards) or get money for new enterprises. This has accelerated or directly caused the failure of many UK employers, including Zavvi, Northern Rock and Woolworths. If the government's scheme works, inter-bank lending will increase, credit will be more easily available for consumers and businesses and the economy will benefit. But it's a big "if".
Is this the end of it?
It's too early to tell. The government has made a plan to try and address the problems that are in the banking sector now. But as circumstances change, you have to adapt or fail. As things stand now, the government believes this should be enough. Hopefully it is right.
What's being done to stop this happening again?
Along with the cash, the government has said it wants to change the rules of banking in the UK. From now on, banks could be forced to put money aside in the good times to ensure against trouble further down the line. Additionally, there are new powers in place for the Bank of England to try and nip trouble in the bud in future.
What are the Conservatives saying?
"People can see that when Gordon Brown said that he would save the world just a couple of months ago he hasn't even saved the British banking system."
What is Vince Cable saying?
"[I] don't disagree with the need for a stimulus. Without it, the recession will be even deeper and longer, and there will be bigger government deficits debts to pay off. But that stimulus and similar efforts in the US and Europe are being blunted by the fact that the banks are on strike... My main concern is these proposals miss the point - how do we get the ?37 billion taxpayer investment working, to get banks lending again to sound businesses? I think the government has to bite the bullet on public ownership and control of the banks."

Related links

Full coverage of the bank bailouts 
Saving the global economy 
The new bailout in detail 
Is printing money the solution to our problems? 
Buy & sell from just ?9.95


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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan 20 03:32:37 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:32:37 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Looking For Info
In-Reply-To: <01d001c97ab8$2034eb80$8c82c67c@HomePC>
Message-ID: <733233.59729.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Tue, 20/1/09, William Hugh McGunnigle <wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz> wrote:

From: William Hugh McGunnigle <wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Tuesday, 20 January, 2009, 4:32 AM





HI Wallace 
??????????????? You appear to have misunderstood my comment. I did not state that automation was "perverse"? but that it had been "perverted" meaning that it was no longer allowing people to have more Liesure time but that those who were implementing the automation were doing so in order to eliminate oportuniites for human employment and thereby depriving humans of the means to "earn a salary or wage" that would enable them to take adventage of the improved and more efficient production of goods and services. am in agreement with all your other observations.
????? Bill McGunnigle

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Wallace Klinck 
To: socialcredit at elistas.com 
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Just a note to advise that automation is not perverse but is a blessing enabling society to produce wealth with far less labour input for a given output of production. ?The purpose of a economic system is not to provide work but to provide a maximum of consumer-desired goods and services with a minimum of cost input, of which labor is, and should be, ?a diminishing factor. ?Having more people working does nothing to solve the defect in the price-system and would just produce even more consumer wealth for which the population would not have sufficient financial income to buy. ?This would necessitate even more consumer debt if the consumer items are to be sold. ?There, is, of course not the slightest justification for our present so-called "credit crunch" and economic turndown. ?It has been caused by excessive debt?which has eroded the liquidity of the financial system, has resulted in?credit restriction and reduced consumer income and spending.
 ?There should be no need for consumer debt on the overall whatsoever. ?If the deficiency of purchasing power resulting from an excess of financial costs relative to income in each cycle of production had been met by the Douglas measures of consumer credit issued without debt in the form of a National (Consumer) Dividend and Compensated (Retail) Prices, instead of the Keynesian policy of financing consumption with new money issued as bank debt, there could be no credit crisis. ?The financial system would be self-liquidating at all stages and we would enjoy full access to consumer production with falling retail prices and increasing opportunity for leisure. 
Sincerely
Wally Klinck



On 15-Jan-09, at 11:11 PM, William Hugh McGunnigle wrote:



HI Helge Nome
???????????????????? Your Comments about our modern society are very valid especially your obsrevation that the ills that Douglas identified are still? with us. I find that the biggest problem we have to overcome is ignorance of the way our present system of economics operates. Particularly the old myth that banks get their?funds for lending from their deposits, It is very difficult to convince people that the 'credit' extended?to them in loans and overdrafts etc is simply a book entry and created out of thin air, and in reality there is no " pile of gold" hidden in the bank vaults to back up the funds they have lent out. They also don't realise that the government allows private banks to issue the money supply that keeps our society running, and that their manipulation of that money supply affects the amount of commerce that takes place and consequently the number of people who are employed. The horrible situation we have at
 present has been perverted by automation leading to fewer employment oportunities, and consequently fewer people actually earning enough to absorb increases in production. The other observation that much of modern production is employed making frivolous and similar items is also valid. This is a consequence of our present system that has to have something to absorb the surplus production and surplus labour. IT is a treadmill from which there appears to be no escape while the present financial system persists.
Bill McGunnigle

----- Original Message -----
From:?helge nome
To:?Socialcreditlist?;?Len Skowronski
Sent:?Tuesday, January 13, 2009 3:24 PM
Subject:?RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

I would like to comment on some changes that have taken place in the world since the time when Douglas entered upon the world stage.?
>From reading his writings it appears that the prevailing belief at that time was that industrialization of production would lead to more leisure by an ever increasing number of people. And since you don't pay machines a wage to produce goods and services, the amount of purchasing power provided to a shrinking number of workers for producing
those goods and services would be wholly inadequate to buy them and so make continuing funds available to finance ongoing production.?
In order to deal with this problem the "leisured" class of people would be given access to free credit to purchase the excess goods and services available and, in the process, provide the required funds to maintain production. A win-win for everybody.? (I suspect Douglas had in mind the British aristocracy when he envisioned a "leisured" class of people because that was part of his experience growing up).
However, society did not develop quite the way envisioned: As affluence increased, people developed an insatiable appetite for ever more frivolous goods and services, making everybody even more busy than they were before!
As a result we now have a world that is choking in waste products from an overheated production system fueled by debt based credit (instead of free credit) where the people who made the ledger entries to create new money not only claim ownership of the stuff, but also claim interest on it for the arduous task of pushing a few keyboard buttons!
Awesome audacity. And they are actually getting away with it because most people don't understand what they are doing.
?Giving them that understanding is our job in the Social Credit Movement
Regards,
Helge



From:?wmklinck at shaw.ca
To:?socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:19:12 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Per, Social Credit has no intention of "adjusting to the realities of to-day." ?The so-called "realities" of the present are the evils which Social Credit aims to eliminate or rectify. ?Of prime concern is the elimination of both the threat and reality of the Servile State--whether it be fascist, communist, socialist, that of Keynesian debt-finance or any form of totalitarian or semi-totalitarian regime. ?As Douglas avered, we must build up from the individual and not down from the state. ?Systems were made for men and not men for systems. ?Economic policy must originate with individual consumers and not from the state. ?The ills that Douglas identified have only become more accentuated and more entrenched than when he wrote. ?Social Credit becomes more applicable with every increase in technological efficiency which displaces labor with technology and hence is even more appropriate than when Douglas began writing on the subject--which became
 known as Social Credit. ?I note that you have for some time made submissions to this group. ?The group exists to study the subject of Douglas Social Credit and anyone who contributes to it should reasonably be expected to have made a sincere and serious effort to read and understand the written works of Douglas and his close supporters. ?Would you kindly indicate to the group?specifically?which of those works you have read diligently so that those of the group might be informed as to your qualifications to expound on the subject. ?I am sure that you will agree that this is a fair request. 
Sincerely
Wally





On 9-Jan-09, at 2:56 PM, Per Almgren wrote:


Joe Thomson skrev:

(John Rawson wrote:-) ?Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course, with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to link us further with anti-semitism.

(Joe replies:-) ?Linking "us further with anti-semitism" would be the least of my concerns over this method of approach, John. ?You may not be aware of it, but what you are proposing is the ?building of a totalitarian "slave state", ?not a one in which "individual" freedom will be allowed to develop and flourish. ?That the "slaves" will be well fed and quartered, while they're needed, is of little consequence. ?They're still "slaves", beholden for their continued ?sustenance to "servitude" to the "State" and the "system" it imposes on them.
In my opinion this writing of "slave state" is not what John describes. My impression now is that there is to much arguing of what Douglas have expressed in a special situation in this list and I think that if Social Credit should be of any use in the future, ?it must be allowed to adjust to realities of to-day. If no new thinking is accepted, there is not much use to discuss, it would just be a seminar of history, not a forum for promoting useful ideas for practical use in the society.

This is the very antithesis of "Social Credit". ??It is "Fascism" without the more odious facets of that failed system fully revealing themselves. ?Which they soon would, if ever it were imposed. ?It is interesting that we have been duped into calling this 'anti-semitism' considering where such a policy likely originated.?
This could not be called Fascism in the common meaning of the word.

Per Almgren

(John continues:-) And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the same category, which is ridiculous.

(Joe replies:-) ?It is "repaid", John. ?It cancels that portion of /existing/ debt charges that could not otherwise be repaid. ?Without creating ANOTHER debt charge in the process. ?It is an "accounting adjustment" carried out in the economy as a whole to more fully allow the overall costs of production to be FINANCIALLY, as well as 'physically', self-liquidating with consumption. ??(John continues:-) An independent Credit Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political decision, even if it only considered a divarication between discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

(Joe replies:-) ?I can ?generally agree with that provided it be realized this "new money" is applied to reducing prices to ?Consumers FIRST, not ?to funding other things which have additional "costs".

Regards,

Joe?

???----- Original Message -----

???*From:* John G Rawson <mailto:johngrawson at hotmail.com>

???*To:* Socred elistas <mailto:socialcredit at elistas.com>

???*Sent:* Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:07 PM

???*Subject:* RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



???For the first parts, you have valid points. ?I have never debated

???whether or not some form of price control might be necessary. But

???based on the rather inane information that had previously been

???circulated, I could not see how this particular mechanism could be

???practicable. Your new information at least clears part of that

???objection.

???Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And

???yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course,

???with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns

???etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to

???link us further with anti-semitism.

???And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid

???means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the

???same category, which is ridiculous. An independent Credit

???Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into

???circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand

???inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political

???decision, even if it only considered a divarication between

???discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

???The Ottawa agreement did nothing to increase trade or spending

???power. ?All it did was to close shop against other nations. And

???one of its minor sidelines was to force us to buy useless strains

???of forest seed from you rather than the USA. The Douglas fir

???appeared to have come from somewhere inside the arctic circle,

???because the lengtrh of day effect made it bud burst far too early

???in the spring so that it got frost-burned in our much milder

???climate in the central Nth. Is. Then it hardened off about

???Christmas and ceased growing through all the warm summer and

???autumn period. ?I remember a compartment in Kaingaroa Forest

???planted with both this strain and a normal one from Washington or

???wherever. The boundary looked like a sudden cliff face as the

???canopy dropped from one to the other.The only point I was making

???over food subsidies was that we had a humanitarian government that

???helped both public health and a major industry by the use of

???debt-free credit. Rooseveldt's New Deal did something the same

???thing on borrowed money. War expenditure finallly brought us right

???out, and as a point of interest NZ (with strict import controls)

???came out of the war with zero overseas debt. (And a bureaucracy

???subsidised less healthy white floured bread, not wholemeal!)

???But the government didn't "have to" subsidise food. People were

???starving and it used one method to help them. Coming from a

???(broke, ex-serviceman's) farm, I never went hungry. But I knew men

???my age whose developmenmt was stunted for that reason.

???It seems we may have to revisit times like that before enough

???people will again consider monetary reform. in any shape, SC or other.



???John R.



---------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email?wmklinck at shaw.ca
For more information, visit?http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email helgenome at hotmail.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit






---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email wmklinck at shaw.ca
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit




      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan 20 03:36:26 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:36:26 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Fw: Re: "fiscal accrual"................What is this?
In-Reply-To: <892948.28167.qm@web80704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <133517.80196.qm@web27407.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Mon, 19/1/09, Richard Mermin <rmermin at nvbell.net> wrote:

From: Richard Mermin <rmermin at nvbell.net>
Subject: Fw: Re: "fiscal accrual"
To: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Monday, 19 January, 2009, 10:36 PM






following is the? record of an exchange that seems to have stalled for the moment.? From your postings I get the hope you may be able to carry it further.? Fiscal accrual may be just what we need to rescue the world economy with attempting radical political? overhaul all at once.? Can you help us find more about it?

RICHARD MERMIN
1111 Cordero Dr
Carson City NV 89703
775 883 8496 ph&fax

--- On Thu, 1/15/09, Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: "fiscal accrual"
To: rmermin at nvbell.net
Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 12:01 AM


If so, they're not talking about it.? Thanks, Ellen


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:54 PM, Richard Mermin <rmermin at nvbell.net> wrote:






I've forwarded our exchange to a top NZ? accountant, dunno if he? will reply.? Likely you have acquaintance (readers?) who might know more about "fiscal accrual?"? It may be a system already in place that can save the world economy?


RICHARD MERMIN
1111 Cordero Dr
Carson City NV 89703
775 883 8496 ph&fax

--- On Wed, 1/14/09, Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: "fiscal accrual"
To: "Richard Mermin" <rmermin at nvbell.net>, rmermin at gmail.com
Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 9:10 PM





Hm, I couldn't find anything specific on it either.? 


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 8:58 PM, Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com> wrote:

Excellent tip.? I'll research it.? Thanks!





On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:43 PM, Richard Mermin <rmermin at nvbell.net> wrote:





is the name of an accounting protocol adopted by New Zealand and Australia.? In practice it means that money issued by government for infrastucture is balanced by showing the completed work as an asset.? If I understand? correctly, there should be no need for bonds, interest, borrowing,? taxes, for repayment.? Very much like your proposals I believe, with added kicker that it seems to be employed actually by responsible authorities.

I have not been able to find anything written on? the use of this device or possible deployment by US or state governments.? What do you make of it?? would appreciate your comments!

I've? been distributing your articles to practically every acquaintance whom I thought might be interested or at least intrigued.? Scarcely a nibble!? and some of these people have lost millions, and argue politics incessantly.

If you will reply, please copy to rmermin at gmail.com.? ATT has been blocking many emails to me,? "to protect from spam or phishing!" - they admit that, but won't correct it.

RICHARD MERMIN
1111 Cordero Dr
Carson City NV 89703
775 883 8496 ph&fax





      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan 20 03:46:26 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:46:26 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] More Data on Fiscal Accrual
Message-ID: <833196.90056.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All,
?
???????? Here are two links about fiscal accrual. However, I have not read them properly. May be someone like Chris Cook could throw some light on this...notably in connection with the last post.
?
?
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jol/vol41_1/shaviro.php
?
?
?
http://ideas.repec.org/a/ifs/fistud/v23y2002i2p287-300.html
?
?
Robert Searle
?


      
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From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 20 03:52:40 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:22:40 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] Sharing a note on Carbon Neutral Neigbourhood Discussions
	for mitigating climate change
In-Reply-To: <733233.59729.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <556267.31505.qm@web94908.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Multiplying Carbon Neutral Neighborhood Discussions (CNNDs) for reducing the emission of GHGs
-Dr. Muhammad Mukhtar Alam 
?
The reports on the impacts of climate change caused by the globalization of non-renewable resource based consumption, production, habitats and transport and so on are well known such as global warming, deforestation, rise in sea level, melting of glaciers and others. Internal Panel on Climate on Climate Change has been producing reports on the impacts of the climate change.. We need to work for minimizing the emissions of the green house gases. Climate change through with rise in temperature of earth, change in rainfall patterns caused due to emission of gases that is raising the temperature of earth as the amount of green house gases generated is much more than the capacity of the green cover for absorbing. Impact are being felt everywhere with impacts beyond the national boundaries. There are several recorded evidences that has caused nations to take on the challenge of global warming .Since 1997 UN intergovernmental panel on climate change has been
 meeting and deliberating on the issue . There are several national responses and international agreements. Recently China and US has expressed agreement work on climate. Speaking on occasion of APEC summit in Sydney, Australia Mr. Hu Jintao maintained that ?the United Nations Framework convention? remain the main channel for the international efforts? to address climate change (The Hindu, September 7, 2007). 
The Fourth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), which emphasised the far-reaching consequences that continued global warming would have across the world, has given fresh impetus to finding solution to the problem. The summit meeting of the Group of Eight industrialised countries (G8) held? in June 2007 in Germany saw the launch of new initiatives for collective action by both rich nations and fast-growing developing countries to combat climate change.? In its Fourth Assessment Report, the IPCC, the international body that has the task of weighing scientific evidence on climate change, pointed to definitive evidence that global atmospheric concentration of key greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide had ?increased markedly as a result of human activities since 1750?. These gases were trapping the Earth?s heat that would otherwise have radiated out into space. If the build-up of greenhouse gases and the
 resultant warming of the planet were allowed to continue unchecked, there would be irreversible damage to the eco-systems across the world with suffering for the billions. Already we have evidences about the villages in Gujarat relocating itself away from sea as more and more coastal area are getting submerged in the sea. 
?
Considering the urgent need to respond to climate change, Sewa, Labour League Foundation, Sufi Trust ,Centre for Ecological Audit,Social Inclusion and Governance, a joint initiative of Sewa,labour Foundaiton and Sufi Trust has suggested the following measures:
?

Multiplication of carbon neutral neighbourhood discussions across the cities and villages: These discussions will be initiated by youth and community elders in the neighbourhood where they gather for collective prayer, discussions. The recommendations of the discussion simultaneous action may be presented in the form of a memorandum to the world leader gathered in various summits. The first summit that was covered was the Green House Gas Summit held in Indonesia. The discussions will have local, national and global impacts. Local impact will be generated through transformation of the leisure use pattern, consumption pattern. Email will be used for transmitting the message globally through the e-group posts. The discussions will be facilitated by volunteers or the resident welfare associations will be provided with discussion kits. Volunteers could ?collect feedback on improving the mass communication strategies for reducing personal contribution to the
 green house gases. It is believed that the discussions on the urgency of reducing green house gases will lead to the transformation of personal level consumption patterns. CEASIG believes that personal responses are critical for transformation of the consumption of pattern. Unsustainable consumption patterns can be halted with the personal responses. Personal responses are always part of the global responses. Carbon neutral neighbourhood discussions (CNNDs) will multiply ecologically safe responses across the urban and rural areas.
Multiplication of ecologically safe responses through promotion of green journalism: Production of analytical and advisory outputs through journalists is critical and they are one of the major stakeholders in shaping the opinions, consumption patterns. Journalists writing on lifestyle can substantially influence the consumption pattern of people in the urban. They can help in shaping the tastes and defining the choices. Journalists are important is generating democratic consensus for halting unsustainable consumption patterns. In our times, journalists play a very critical and sometimes they are responsible for defining the social, cultural and political trends. Labour League Foundation wishes to secure the future of working class with ecologically sustainable habitats, consumption patterns.
Catalysing green politics /open politics: Labour league Foundation and Centre for Ecological Audit, Social Inclusion and Governance will be supporting the process for open and transparent politics for instilling the importance of green ideals. It will be organising meetings with the representatives of the various political parties and seek inclusion of ecological considerations in the election manifestoes.
Transformation of leisure use patterns: Labour League Foundations wishes to realise the millennium development goals for eliminating the unsustainable consumption patterns and it wishes to do so through suggesting transformation of the leisure use pattern. It wishes to do so through suggesting adoption of faith based measures that are common across the religious texts. As indicated through the diagrammatic representation of the impact of adoption of faith based measures, it wishes to generate interfaith consensus for acting simultaneously for transforming the leisure use patterns. 
Calculation of ecological footprints, eliminating ecological rucksacks: Labour League Foundation wishes to disseminate the practice of measuring ecological footprints for getting the desired actions for reducing the number of decisions involving emission of green house gases.
Ecological Audit of the consumption patterns: The ecological audit is a concept proposed by the chairman of Labour League Foundation and it will be used along with the calculation of ecological footprints for assessing the impact of various decision, consumption and production patterns.
Ecological Audit of the production patterns: Production processes need to be assessed for sustainability. There are ecologically sustainable and unsustainable production processes. The workshops with corporations interested in realising the millennium development goals will be conducted for getting in the changes in production processes.
Ecological Audit of the transport patterns: Renewable resource based transport systems are sustainable and non-renewable resource based transport systems are not sustainable. Ecological Audit of the transport systems will be done with ministries dealing with transport.
Ecological Audit of the leisure use patterns: There are leisure use patterns that do not use green house gas producing fossil fuels and there are leisure use pattern that are based on renewable resources and that does not involve consumption of fossil fuels. Workshop with the neighbourhood discussion leaders and resident welfare associations be conducted for necessary transformation of leisure use patterns. Children, youths and elders be encouraged to adopt faith based measures for relaxation and stress busting.
Interfaith dialogue for addressing the climate change, farmer?s suicides, and social security for workers in unorganized sector, transforming finance sector: Appreciation of the common commands for prayer, donation, compassion, charity and prohibition of usury, adultery, and homosexuality is needed with wider dissemination of the same. Adoption of these commands addresses the challenge of climate change, ecologically hostile usurious system; Inter-faith dialogue will ensure generation of responses across the faith groups. Delhi has a vibrant culture of interfaith dialogue. Sant Rajinder Singh of Sawan Kripal Ashram has been conducting the same for many years. Organisations/ individuals independently or in collaboration with other organisation may work for generating more forums of interfaith dialogue with special reference to mitigating climate change.
National Convention on Inter Faith common responses for addressing the climate change: A national convention will be organised for generating consensus for adoption of faith based measures for addressing the climate change. There are cultural responses for fighting the atheistic neo-liberal cultural trends emanating from Europe and copied by youth in the name of globalisation and modernity. National Convention could address the issue of climate change through adopting the interfaith commons while maintaining in some forms of dietary, sartorial, linguistic, religious diversity.
Youth colloquiums ( Majlis-e-Naujawan)for contributing in the mitigation of the impacts of climate change: LLF recognises the critical role of youths as an organisation led by youths. Green youth forums ??formed and discussions are held for getting the desired response pattern for halting the expansion of unsustainable consumption pattern and leisure use pattern through adoption of faith based measures.
?
What are carbon neutral neighborhood discussions?
???????? The discussions, conversation, conferences that are held in the neighborhood with all who can be reached by foot or carbon neutral transport such as bicycle, bullock carts, horse driven carriages and others
???????? The discussion that we hold at? home and in the neighborhood spaces such as parks, tea/ coffee ,vegetable shops, milk shops-all in the neighborhood and nearby habitations, localities and . 
CNNDs on what?
???????? Personal responses for reducing the emission of green house gases
???????? Transforming travel decisions for energy intensive leisure i.e. Leisure using GHG emitting transport and venues such as bars and discotheques
???????? Alternative ways for getting the feeling of wellbeing including faith base practices such as practice of prayer, meditation individually and collectively 
CNNDs with whom
???????? With all irrespective of class, caste, race, religion, ethnicity, gender etc. as we all are contributors to the emission of green house gases in various measures and the impacts of the climate change are affecting? us all
???????? With children who could contribute through avoiding the green house gas emitting engagements
???????? With women who are the potential consumers of the fossil fuel based energy, services and leisure
???????? With youth who are the potential consumers of the fossil fuel based energy, services and leisure
???????? With community leaders who are the potential consumers of the fossil fuel based energy, services and leisure
With all
???????? Who are potential contributor to the emission of green house gases
???????? All of us are the potential contributor to the emission of green house gases
???????? Both poor and rich, black and white, brown and yellow
???????? Across the nations, across the neighborhoods
???????? With men and women across the age groups
???????? With friends and foes 
What is needed for CNNDs?
???????? Information on climate change and its reasons
???????? Commitments for communicating the same 
???????? Setting personal examples of one is responding for addressing the impacts of climate change
???????? Desire to talk to people in the neighborhood
???????? Spaces for conducting the CNNDs 
???????? A group of friends or relatives in the neighborhood 
Communicating ecological audit
???????? Ecological audit of the consumption patterns- there is need to communicate ecological audit of the consumption patterns so that we are sure that we consume for survival and not for luxury and exhibition.
???????? Ecological audit of the transport patterns- reduction in fossil fuel based transport is critical for reducing emission of green house gases. It is important to consider the interests of future generations for ecological safe habitats. Fossil fuel based transports have a short history and short future. There is need to prepare for the end of petro-modern times
???????? Ecological audit of the use of water, energy, food and time 
???????? Ecological audit of the travel needs
Impacts 
???????? Reduction in the personal contribution to the emission of green house gases
???????? Multiplication of the discussion across the neighborhoods
???????? Multiplication of the personal decisions for reducing the emission of green house gases
???????? Adoption of neighborhood carbon neutral measures for leisure ,relaxation, spiritual wellbeing and procuring the provisions 
?
?
?

--- On Tue, 20/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [GJM] [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Tuesday, 20 January, 2009, 4:02 PM








--- On Tue, 20/1/09, William Hugh McGunnigle <wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz> wrote:

From: William Hugh McGunnigle <wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Tuesday, 20 January, 2009, 4:32 AM





HI Wallace 
??????????????? You appear to have misunderstood my comment. I did not state that automation was "perverse"? but that it had been "perverted" meaning that it was no longer allowing people to have more Liesure time but that those who were implementing the automation were doing so in order to eliminate oportuniites for human employment and thereby depriving humans of the means to "earn a salary or wage" that would enable them to take adventage of the improved and more efficient production of goods and services. am in agreement with all your other observations.
????? Bill McGunnigle

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Wallace Klinck 
To: socialcredit at elistas.com 
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Just a note to advise that automation is not perverse but is a blessing enabling society to produce wealth with far less labour input for a given output of production. ?The purpose of a economic system is not to provide work but to provide a maximum of consumer-desired goods and services with a minimum of cost input, of which labor is, and should be, ?a diminishing factor. ?Having more people working does nothing to solve the defect in the price-system and would just produce even more consumer wealth for which the population would not have sufficient financial income to buy. ?This would necessitate even more consumer debt if the consumer items are to be sold. ?There, is, of course not the slightest justification for our present so-called "credit crunch" and economic turndown. ?It has been caused by excessive debt?which has eroded the liquidity of the financial system, has resulted in?credit restriction and reduced consumer income and spending.
 ?There should be no need for consumer debt on the overall whatsoever. ?If the deficiency of purchasing power resulting from an excess of financial costs relative to income in each cycle of production had been met by the Douglas measures of consumer credit issued without debt in the form of a National (Consumer) Dividend and Compensated (Retail) Prices, instead of the Keynesian policy of financing consumption with new money issued as bank debt, there could be no credit crisis. ?The financial system would be self-liquidating at all stages and we would enjoy full access to consumer production with falling retail prices and increasing opportunity for leisure. 
Sincerely
Wally Klinck



On 15-Jan-09, at 11:11 PM, William Hugh McGunnigle wrote:



HI Helge Nome
???????????????????? Your Comments about our modern society are very valid especially your obsrevation that the ills that Douglas identified are still? with us. I find that the biggest problem we have to overcome is ignorance of the way our present system of economics operates. Particularly the old myth that banks get their?funds for lending from their deposits, It is very difficult to convince people that the 'credit' extended?to them in loans and overdrafts etc is simply a book entry and created out of thin air, and in reality there is no " pile of gold" hidden in the bank vaults to back up the funds they have lent out. They also don't realise that the government allows private banks to issue the money supply that keeps our society running, and that their manipulation of that money supply affects the amount of commerce that takes place and consequently the number of people who are employed. The horrible situation we have at
 present has been perverted by automation leading to fewer employment oportunities, and consequently fewer people actually earning enough to absorb increases in production. The other observation that much of modern production is employed making frivolous and similar items is also valid. This is a consequence of our present system that has to have something to absorb the surplus production and surplus labour. IT is a treadmill from which there appears to be no escape while the present financial system persists.
Bill McGunnigle

----- Original Message -----
From:?helge nome
To:?Socialcreditlist?;?Len Skowronski
Sent:?Tuesday, January 13, 2009 3:24 PM
Subject:?RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

I would like to comment on some changes that have taken place in the world since the time when Douglas entered upon the world stage.?
>From reading his writings it appears that the prevailing belief at that time was that industrialization of production would lead to more leisure by an ever increasing number of people. And since you don't pay machines a wage to produce goods and services, the amount of purchasing power provided to a shrinking number of workers for producing
those goods and services would be wholly inadequate to buy them and so make continuing funds available to finance ongoing production.?
In order to deal with this problem the "leisured" class of people would be given access to free credit to purchase the excess goods and services available and, in the process, provide the required funds to maintain production.. A win-win for everybody.? (I suspect Douglas had in mind the British aristocracy when he envisioned a "leisured" class of people because that was part of his experience growing up).
However, society did not develop quite the way envisioned: As affluence increased, people developed an insatiable appetite for ever more frivolous goods and services, making everybody even more busy than they were before!
As a result we now have a world that is choking in waste products from an overheated production system fueled by debt based credit (instead of free credit) where the people who made the ledger entries to create new money not only claim ownership of the stuff, but also claim interest on it for the arduous task of pushing a few keyboard buttons!
Awesome audacity. And they are actually getting away with it because most people don't understand what they are doing.
?Giving them that understanding is our job in the Social Credit Movement
Regards,
Helge



From:?wmklinck at shaw.ca
To:?socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:19:12 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Per, Social Credit has no intention of "adjusting to the realities of to-day." ?The so-called "realities" of the present are the evils which Social Credit aims to eliminate or rectify. ?Of prime concern is the elimination of both the threat and reality of the Servile State--whether it be fascist, communist, socialist, that of Keynesian debt-finance or any form of totalitarian or semi-totalitarian regime. ?As Douglas avered, we must build up from the individual and not down from the state. ?Systems were made for men and not men for systems. ?Economic policy must originate with individual consumers and not from the state. ?The ills that Douglas identified have only become more accentuated and more entrenched than when he wrote. ?Social Credit becomes more applicable with every increase in technological efficiency which displaces labor with technology and hence is even more appropriate than when Douglas began writing on the subject--which became
 known as Social Credit. ?I note that you have for some time made submissions to this group. ?The group exists to study the subject of Douglas Social Credit and anyone who contributes to it should reasonably be expected to have made a sincere and serious effort to read and understand the written works of Douglas and his close supporters. ?Would you kindly indicate to the group?specifically?which of those works you have read diligently so that those of the group might be informed as to your qualifications to expound on the subject. ?I am sure that you will agree that this is a fair request. 
Sincerely
Wally





On 9-Jan-09, at 2:56 PM, Per Almgren wrote:


Joe Thomson skrev:

(John Rawson wrote:-) ?Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course, with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to link us further with anti-semitism.

(Joe replies:-) ?Linking "us further with anti-semitism" would be the least of my concerns over this method of approach, John. ?You may not be aware of it, but what you are proposing is the ?building of a totalitarian "slave state", ?not a one in which "individual" freedom will be allowed to develop and flourish. ?That the "slaves" will be well fed and quartered, while they're needed, is of little consequence. ?They're still "slaves", beholden for their continued ?sustenance to "servitude" to the "State" and the "system" it imposes on them.
In my opinion this writing of "slave state" is not what John describes. My impression now is that there is to much arguing of what Douglas have expressed in a special situation in this list and I think that if Social Credit should be of any use in the future, ?it must be allowed to adjust to realities of to-day. If no new thinking is accepted, there is not much use to discuss, it would just be a seminar of history, not a forum for promoting useful ideas for practical use in the society.

This is the very antithesis of "Social Credit". ??It is "Fascism" without the more odious facets of that failed system fully revealing themselves. ?Which they soon would, if ever it were imposed. ?It is interesting that we have been duped into calling this 'anti-semitism' considering where such a policy likely originated.?
This could not be called Fascism in the common meaning of the word.

Per Almgren

(John continues:-) And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the same category, which is ridiculous.

(Joe replies:-) ?It is "repaid", John. ?It cancels that portion of /existing/ debt charges that could not otherwise be repaid. ?Without creating ANOTHER debt charge in the process. ?It is an "accounting adjustment" carried out in the economy as a whole to more fully allow the overall costs of production to be FINANCIALLY, as well as 'physically', self-liquidating with consumption. ??(John continues:-) An independent Credit Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political decision, even if it only considered a divarication between discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

(Joe replies:-) ?I can ?generally agree with that provided it be realized this "new money" is applied to reducing prices to ?Consumers FIRST, not ?to funding other things which have additional "costs".

Regards,

Joe?

???----- Original Message -----

???*From:* John G Rawson <mailto:johngrawson at hotmail.com>

???*To:* Socred elistas <mailto:socialcredit at elistas.com>

???*Sent:* Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:07 PM

???*Subject:* RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



???For the first parts, you have valid points. ?I have never debated

???whether or not some form of price control might be necessary. But

???based on the rather inane information that had previously been

???circulated, I could not see how this particular mechanism could be

???practicable. Your new information at least clears part of that

???objection.

???Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation.. And

???yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course,

???with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns

???etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to

???link us further with anti-semitism.

???And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid

???means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the

???same category, which is ridiculous. An independent Credit

???Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into

???circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand

???inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political

???decision, even if it only considered a divarication between

???discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

???The Ottawa agreement did nothing to increase trade or spending

???power. ?All it did was to close shop against other nations. And

???one of its minor sidelines was to force us to buy useless strains

???of forest seed from you rather than the USA. The Douglas fir

???appeared to have come from somewhere inside the arctic circle,

???because the lengtrh of day effect made it bud burst far too early

???in the spring so that it got frost-burned in our much milder

???climate in the central Nth. Is. Then it hardened off about

???Christmas and ceased growing through all the warm summer and

???autumn period. ?I remember a compartment in Kaingaroa Forest

???planted with both this strain and a normal one from Washington or

???wherever. The boundary looked like a sudden cliff face as the

???canopy dropped from one to the other.The only point I was making

???over food subsidies was that we had a humanitarian government that

???helped both public health and a major industry by the use of

???debt-free credit. Rooseveldt's New Deal did something the same

???thing on borrowed money. War expenditure finallly brought us right

???out, and as a point of interest NZ (with strict import controls)

???came out of the war with zero overseas debt. (And a bureaucracy

???subsidised less healthy white floured bread, not wholemeal!)

???But the government didn't "have to" subsidise food. People were

???starving and it used one method to help them. Coming from a

???(broke, ex-serviceman's) farm, I never went hungry. But I knew men

???my age whose developmenmt was stunted for that reason.

???It seems we may have to revisit times like that before enough

???people will again consider monetary reform. in any shape, SC or other.



???John R.



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You're subscribed to this list with the email helgenome at hotmail.com
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---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
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You're subscribed to this list with the email wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
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You're subscribed to this list with the email wmklinck at shaw.ca
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit


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Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
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You're subscribed to this list with the email wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit



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From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 20 03:52:54 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:22:54 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] Sharing a note on Carbon Neutral Neigbourhood Discussions
	for mitigating climate change
In-Reply-To: <733233.59729.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <739967.46047.qm@web94911.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Multiplying Carbon Neutral Neighborhood Discussions (CNNDs) for reducing the emission of GHGs
-Dr. Muhammad Mukhtar Alam 
?
The reports on the impacts of climate change caused by the globalization of non-renewable resource based consumption, production, habitats and transport and so on are well known such as global warming, deforestation, rise in sea level, melting of glaciers and others. Internal Panel on Climate on Climate Change has been producing reports on the impacts of the climate change.. We need to work for minimizing the emissions of the green house gases. Climate change through with rise in temperature of earth, change in rainfall patterns caused due to emission of gases that is raising the temperature of earth as the amount of green house gases generated is much more than the capacity of the green cover for absorbing. Impact are being felt everywhere with impacts beyond the national boundaries. There are several recorded evidences that has caused nations to take on the challenge of global warming .Since 1997 UN intergovernmental panel on climate change has been
 meeting and deliberating on the issue . There are several national responses and international agreements. Recently China and US has expressed agreement work on climate. Speaking on occasion of APEC summit in Sydney, Australia Mr. Hu Jintao maintained that ?the United Nations Framework convention? remain the main channel for the international efforts? to address climate change (The Hindu, September 7, 2007). 
The Fourth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), which emphasised the far-reaching consequences that continued global warming would have across the world, has given fresh impetus to finding solution to the problem. The summit meeting of the Group of Eight industrialised countries (G8) held? in June 2007 in Germany saw the launch of new initiatives for collective action by both rich nations and fast-growing developing countries to combat climate change.? In its Fourth Assessment Report, the IPCC, the international body that has the task of weighing scientific evidence on climate change, pointed to definitive evidence that global atmospheric concentration of key greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide had ?increased markedly as a result of human activities since 1750?. These gases were trapping the Earth?s heat that would otherwise have radiated out into space. If the build-up of greenhouse gases and the
 resultant warming of the planet were allowed to continue unchecked, there would be irreversible damage to the eco-systems across the world with suffering for the billions. Already we have evidences about the villages in Gujarat relocating itself away from sea as more and more coastal area are getting submerged in the sea. 
?
Considering the urgent need to respond to climate change, Sewa, Labour League Foundation, Sufi Trust ,Centre for Ecological Audit,Social Inclusion and Governance, a joint initiative of Sewa,labour Foundaiton and Sufi Trust has suggested the following measures:
?

Multiplication of carbon neutral neighbourhood discussions across the cities and villages: These discussions will be initiated by youth and community elders in the neighbourhood where they gather for collective prayer, discussions. The recommendations of the discussion simultaneous action may be presented in the form of a memorandum to the world leader gathered in various summits. The first summit that was covered was the Green House Gas Summit held in Indonesia. The discussions will have local, national and global impacts. Local impact will be generated through transformation of the leisure use pattern, consumption pattern. Email will be used for transmitting the message globally through the e-group posts. The discussions will be facilitated by volunteers or the resident welfare associations will be provided with discussion kits. Volunteers could ?collect feedback on improving the mass communication strategies for reducing personal contribution to the
 green house gases. It is believed that the discussions on the urgency of reducing green house gases will lead to the transformation of personal level consumption patterns. CEASIG believes that personal responses are critical for transformation of the consumption of pattern. Unsustainable consumption patterns can be halted with the personal responses. Personal responses are always part of the global responses. Carbon neutral neighbourhood discussions (CNNDs) will multiply ecologically safe responses across the urban and rural areas.
Multiplication of ecologically safe responses through promotion of green journalism: Production of analytical and advisory outputs through journalists is critical and they are one of the major stakeholders in shaping the opinions, consumption patterns. Journalists writing on lifestyle can substantially influence the consumption pattern of people in the urban. They can help in shaping the tastes and defining the choices. Journalists are important is generating democratic consensus for halting unsustainable consumption patterns. In our times, journalists play a very critical and sometimes they are responsible for defining the social, cultural and political trends. Labour League Foundation wishes to secure the future of working class with ecologically sustainable habitats, consumption patterns.
Catalysing green politics /open politics: Labour league Foundation and Centre for Ecological Audit, Social Inclusion and Governance will be supporting the process for open and transparent politics for instilling the importance of green ideals. It will be organising meetings with the representatives of the various political parties and seek inclusion of ecological considerations in the election manifestoes.
Transformation of leisure use patterns: Labour League Foundations wishes to realise the millennium development goals for eliminating the unsustainable consumption patterns and it wishes to do so through suggesting transformation of the leisure use pattern. It wishes to do so through suggesting adoption of faith based measures that are common across the religious texts. As indicated through the diagrammatic representation of the impact of adoption of faith based measures, it wishes to generate interfaith consensus for acting simultaneously for transforming the leisure use patterns. 
Calculation of ecological footprints, eliminating ecological rucksacks: Labour League Foundation wishes to disseminate the practice of measuring ecological footprints for getting the desired actions for reducing the number of decisions involving emission of green house gases.
Ecological Audit of the consumption patterns: The ecological audit is a concept proposed by the chairman of Labour League Foundation and it will be used along with the calculation of ecological footprints for assessing the impact of various decision, consumption and production patterns.
Ecological Audit of the production patterns: Production processes need to be assessed for sustainability. There are ecologically sustainable and unsustainable production processes. The workshops with corporations interested in realising the millennium development goals will be conducted for getting in the changes in production processes.
Ecological Audit of the transport patterns: Renewable resource based transport systems are sustainable and non-renewable resource based transport systems are not sustainable. Ecological Audit of the transport systems will be done with ministries dealing with transport.
Ecological Audit of the leisure use patterns: There are leisure use patterns that do not use green house gas producing fossil fuels and there are leisure use pattern that are based on renewable resources and that does not involve consumption of fossil fuels. Workshop with the neighbourhood discussion leaders and resident welfare associations be conducted for necessary transformation of leisure use patterns. Children, youths and elders be encouraged to adopt faith based measures for relaxation and stress busting.
Interfaith dialogue for addressing the climate change, farmer?s suicides, and social security for workers in unorganized sector, transforming finance sector: Appreciation of the common commands for prayer, donation, compassion, charity and prohibition of usury, adultery, and homosexuality is needed with wider dissemination of the same. Adoption of these commands addresses the challenge of climate change, ecologically hostile usurious system; Inter-faith dialogue will ensure generation of responses across the faith groups. Delhi has a vibrant culture of interfaith dialogue. Sant Rajinder Singh of Sawan Kripal Ashram has been conducting the same for many years. Organisations/ individuals independently or in collaboration with other organisation may work for generating more forums of interfaith dialogue with special reference to mitigating climate change.
National Convention on Inter Faith common responses for addressing the climate change: A national convention will be organised for generating consensus for adoption of faith based measures for addressing the climate change. There are cultural responses for fighting the atheistic neo-liberal cultural trends emanating from Europe and copied by youth in the name of globalisation and modernity. National Convention could address the issue of climate change through adopting the interfaith commons while maintaining in some forms of dietary, sartorial, linguistic, religious diversity.
Youth colloquiums ( Majlis-e-Naujawan)for contributing in the mitigation of the impacts of climate change: LLF recognises the critical role of youths as an organisation led by youths. Green youth forums ??formed and discussions are held for getting the desired response pattern for halting the expansion of unsustainable consumption pattern and leisure use pattern through adoption of faith based measures.
?
What are carbon neutral neighborhood discussions?
???????? The discussions, conversation, conferences that are held in the neighborhood with all who can be reached by foot or carbon neutral transport such as bicycle, bullock carts, horse driven carriages and others
???????? The discussion that we hold at? home and in the neighborhood spaces such as parks, tea/ coffee ,vegetable shops, milk shops-all in the neighborhood and nearby habitations, localities and . 
CNNDs on what?
???????? Personal responses for reducing the emission of green house gases
???????? Transforming travel decisions for energy intensive leisure i.e. Leisure using GHG emitting transport and venues such as bars and discotheques
???????? Alternative ways for getting the feeling of wellbeing including faith base practices such as practice of prayer, meditation individually and collectively 
CNNDs with whom
???????? With all irrespective of class, caste, race, religion, ethnicity, gender etc. as we all are contributors to the emission of green house gases in various measures and the impacts of the climate change are affecting? us all
???????? With children who could contribute through avoiding the green house gas emitting engagements
???????? With women who are the potential consumers of the fossil fuel based energy, services and leisure
???????? With youth who are the potential consumers of the fossil fuel based energy, services and leisure
???????? With community leaders who are the potential consumers of the fossil fuel based energy, services and leisure
With all
???????? Who are potential contributor to the emission of green house gases
???????? All of us are the potential contributor to the emission of green house gases
???????? Both poor and rich, black and white, brown and yellow
???????? Across the nations, across the neighborhoods
???????? With men and women across the age groups
???????? With friends and foes 
What is needed for CNNDs?
???????? Information on climate change and its reasons
???????? Commitments for communicating the same 
???????? Setting personal examples of one is responding for addressing the impacts of climate change
???????? Desire to talk to people in the neighborhood
???????? Spaces for conducting the CNNDs 
???????? A group of friends or relatives in the neighborhood 
Communicating ecological audit
???????? Ecological audit of the consumption patterns- there is need to communicate ecological audit of the consumption patterns so that we are sure that we consume for survival and not for luxury and exhibition.
???????? Ecological audit of the transport patterns- reduction in fossil fuel based transport is critical for reducing emission of green house gases. It is important to consider the interests of future generations for ecological safe habitats. Fossil fuel based transports have a short history and short future. There is need to prepare for the end of petro-modern times
???????? Ecological audit of the use of water, energy, food and time 
???????? Ecological audit of the travel needs
Impacts 
???????? Reduction in the personal contribution to the emission of green house gases
???????? Multiplication of the discussion across the neighborhoods
???????? Multiplication of the personal decisions for reducing the emission of green house gases
???????? Adoption of neighborhood carbon neutral measures for leisure ,relaxation, spiritual wellbeing and procuring the provisions 
?
?
?

--- On Tue, 20/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [GJM] [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Tuesday, 20 January, 2009, 4:02 PM








--- On Tue, 20/1/09, William Hugh McGunnigle <wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz> wrote:

From: William Hugh McGunnigle <wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Tuesday, 20 January, 2009, 4:32 AM





HI Wallace 
??????????????? You appear to have misunderstood my comment. I did not state that automation was "perverse"? but that it had been "perverted" meaning that it was no longer allowing people to have more Liesure time but that those who were implementing the automation were doing so in order to eliminate oportuniites for human employment and thereby depriving humans of the means to "earn a salary or wage" that would enable them to take adventage of the improved and more efficient production of goods and services. am in agreement with all your other observations.
????? Bill McGunnigle

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Wallace Klinck 
To: socialcredit at elistas.com 
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Just a note to advise that automation is not perverse but is a blessing enabling society to produce wealth with far less labour input for a given output of production. ?The purpose of a economic system is not to provide work but to provide a maximum of consumer-desired goods and services with a minimum of cost input, of which labor is, and should be, ?a diminishing factor. ?Having more people working does nothing to solve the defect in the price-system and would just produce even more consumer wealth for which the population would not have sufficient financial income to buy. ?This would necessitate even more consumer debt if the consumer items are to be sold. ?There, is, of course not the slightest justification for our present so-called "credit crunch" and economic turndown. ?It has been caused by excessive debt?which has eroded the liquidity of the financial system, has resulted in?credit restriction and reduced consumer income and spending.
 ?There should be no need for consumer debt on the overall whatsoever. ?If the deficiency of purchasing power resulting from an excess of financial costs relative to income in each cycle of production had been met by the Douglas measures of consumer credit issued without debt in the form of a National (Consumer) Dividend and Compensated (Retail) Prices, instead of the Keynesian policy of financing consumption with new money issued as bank debt, there could be no credit crisis. ?The financial system would be self-liquidating at all stages and we would enjoy full access to consumer production with falling retail prices and increasing opportunity for leisure. 
Sincerely
Wally Klinck



On 15-Jan-09, at 11:11 PM, William Hugh McGunnigle wrote:



HI Helge Nome
???????????????????? Your Comments about our modern society are very valid especially your obsrevation that the ills that Douglas identified are still? with us. I find that the biggest problem we have to overcome is ignorance of the way our present system of economics operates. Particularly the old myth that banks get their?funds for lending from their deposits, It is very difficult to convince people that the 'credit' extended?to them in loans and overdrafts etc is simply a book entry and created out of thin air, and in reality there is no " pile of gold" hidden in the bank vaults to back up the funds they have lent out. They also don't realise that the government allows private banks to issue the money supply that keeps our society running, and that their manipulation of that money supply affects the amount of commerce that takes place and consequently the number of people who are employed. The horrible situation we have at
 present has been perverted by automation leading to fewer employment oportunities, and consequently fewer people actually earning enough to absorb increases in production. The other observation that much of modern production is employed making frivolous and similar items is also valid. This is a consequence of our present system that has to have something to absorb the surplus production and surplus labour. IT is a treadmill from which there appears to be no escape while the present financial system persists.
Bill McGunnigle

----- Original Message -----
From:?helge nome
To:?Socialcreditlist?;?Len Skowronski
Sent:?Tuesday, January 13, 2009 3:24 PM
Subject:?RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

I would like to comment on some changes that have taken place in the world since the time when Douglas entered upon the world stage.?
>From reading his writings it appears that the prevailing belief at that time was that industrialization of production would lead to more leisure by an ever increasing number of people. And since you don't pay machines a wage to produce goods and services, the amount of purchasing power provided to a shrinking number of workers for producing
those goods and services would be wholly inadequate to buy them and so make continuing funds available to finance ongoing production.?
In order to deal with this problem the "leisured" class of people would be given access to free credit to purchase the excess goods and services available and, in the process, provide the required funds to maintain production.. A win-win for everybody.? (I suspect Douglas had in mind the British aristocracy when he envisioned a "leisured" class of people because that was part of his experience growing up).
However, society did not develop quite the way envisioned: As affluence increased, people developed an insatiable appetite for ever more frivolous goods and services, making everybody even more busy than they were before!
As a result we now have a world that is choking in waste products from an overheated production system fueled by debt based credit (instead of free credit) where the people who made the ledger entries to create new money not only claim ownership of the stuff, but also claim interest on it for the arduous task of pushing a few keyboard buttons!
Awesome audacity. And they are actually getting away with it because most people don't understand what they are doing.
?Giving them that understanding is our job in the Social Credit Movement
Regards,
Helge



From:?wmklinck at shaw.ca
To:?socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:19:12 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Per, Social Credit has no intention of "adjusting to the realities of to-day." ?The so-called "realities" of the present are the evils which Social Credit aims to eliminate or rectify. ?Of prime concern is the elimination of both the threat and reality of the Servile State--whether it be fascist, communist, socialist, that of Keynesian debt-finance or any form of totalitarian or semi-totalitarian regime. ?As Douglas avered, we must build up from the individual and not down from the state. ?Systems were made for men and not men for systems. ?Economic policy must originate with individual consumers and not from the state. ?The ills that Douglas identified have only become more accentuated and more entrenched than when he wrote. ?Social Credit becomes more applicable with every increase in technological efficiency which displaces labor with technology and hence is even more appropriate than when Douglas began writing on the subject--which became
 known as Social Credit. ?I note that you have for some time made submissions to this group. ?The group exists to study the subject of Douglas Social Credit and anyone who contributes to it should reasonably be expected to have made a sincere and serious effort to read and understand the written works of Douglas and his close supporters. ?Would you kindly indicate to the group?specifically?which of those works you have read diligently so that those of the group might be informed as to your qualifications to expound on the subject. ?I am sure that you will agree that this is a fair request. 
Sincerely
Wally





On 9-Jan-09, at 2:56 PM, Per Almgren wrote:


Joe Thomson skrev:

(John Rawson wrote:-) ?Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course, with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to link us further with anti-semitism.

(Joe replies:-) ?Linking "us further with anti-semitism" would be the least of my concerns over this method of approach, John. ?You may not be aware of it, but what you are proposing is the ?building of a totalitarian "slave state", ?not a one in which "individual" freedom will be allowed to develop and flourish. ?That the "slaves" will be well fed and quartered, while they're needed, is of little consequence. ?They're still "slaves", beholden for their continued ?sustenance to "servitude" to the "State" and the "system" it imposes on them.
In my opinion this writing of "slave state" is not what John describes. My impression now is that there is to much arguing of what Douglas have expressed in a special situation in this list and I think that if Social Credit should be of any use in the future, ?it must be allowed to adjust to realities of to-day. If no new thinking is accepted, there is not much use to discuss, it would just be a seminar of history, not a forum for promoting useful ideas for practical use in the society.

This is the very antithesis of "Social Credit". ??It is "Fascism" without the more odious facets of that failed system fully revealing themselves. ?Which they soon would, if ever it were imposed. ?It is interesting that we have been duped into calling this 'anti-semitism' considering where such a policy likely originated.?
This could not be called Fascism in the common meaning of the word.

Per Almgren

(John continues:-) And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the same category, which is ridiculous.

(Joe replies:-) ?It is "repaid", John. ?It cancels that portion of /existing/ debt charges that could not otherwise be repaid. ?Without creating ANOTHER debt charge in the process. ?It is an "accounting adjustment" carried out in the economy as a whole to more fully allow the overall costs of production to be FINANCIALLY, as well as 'physically', self-liquidating with consumption. ??(John continues:-) An independent Credit Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political decision, even if it only considered a divarication between discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

(Joe replies:-) ?I can ?generally agree with that provided it be realized this "new money" is applied to reducing prices to ?Consumers FIRST, not ?to funding other things which have additional "costs".

Regards,

Joe?

???----- Original Message -----

???*From:* John G Rawson <mailto:johngrawson at hotmail.com>

???*To:* Socred elistas <mailto:socialcredit at elistas.com>

???*Sent:* Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:07 PM

???*Subject:* RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



???For the first parts, you have valid points. ?I have never debated

???whether or not some form of price control might be necessary. But

???based on the rather inane information that had previously been

???circulated, I could not see how this particular mechanism could be

???practicable. Your new information at least clears part of that

???objection.

???Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation.. And

???yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course,

???with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns

???etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to

???link us further with anti-semitism.

???And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid

???means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the

???same category, which is ridiculous. An independent Credit

???Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into

???circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand

???inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political

???decision, even if it only considered a divarication between

???discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

???The Ottawa agreement did nothing to increase trade or spending

???power. ?All it did was to close shop against other nations. And

???one of its minor sidelines was to force us to buy useless strains

???of forest seed from you rather than the USA. The Douglas fir

???appeared to have come from somewhere inside the arctic circle,

???because the lengtrh of day effect made it bud burst far too early

???in the spring so that it got frost-burned in our much milder

???climate in the central Nth. Is. Then it hardened off about

???Christmas and ceased growing through all the warm summer and

???autumn period. ?I remember a compartment in Kaingaroa Forest

???planted with both this strain and a normal one from Washington or

???wherever. The boundary looked like a sudden cliff face as the

???canopy dropped from one to the other.The only point I was making

???over food subsidies was that we had a humanitarian government that

???helped both public health and a major industry by the use of

???debt-free credit. Rooseveldt's New Deal did something the same

???thing on borrowed money. War expenditure finallly brought us right

???out, and as a point of interest NZ (with strict import controls)

???came out of the war with zero overseas debt. (And a bureaucracy

???subsidised less healthy white floured bread, not wholemeal!)

???But the government didn't "have to" subsidise food. People were

???starving and it used one method to help them. Coming from a

???(broke, ex-serviceman's) farm, I never went hungry. But I knew men

???my age whose developmenmt was stunted for that reason.

???It seems we may have to revisit times like that before enough

???people will again consider monetary reform. in any shape, SC or other.



???John R.



---------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email?wmklinck at shaw.ca
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---------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email helgenome at hotmail.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit






---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email wmklinck at shaw.ca
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit



---------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit



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From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 20 03:53:10 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:23:10 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] Sharing a note on Carbon Neutral Neigbourhood Discussions
	for mitigating climate change
In-Reply-To: <733233.59729.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <572396.34781.qm@web94909.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Multiplying Carbon Neutral Neighborhood Discussions (CNNDs) for reducing the emission of GHGs
-Dr. Muhammad Mukhtar Alam 
?
The reports on the impacts of climate change caused by the globalization of non-renewable resource based consumption, production, habitats and transport and so on are well known such as global warming, deforestation, rise in sea level, melting of glaciers and others. Internal Panel on Climate on Climate Change has been producing reports on the impacts of the climate change.. We need to work for minimizing the emissions of the green house gases. Climate change through with rise in temperature of earth, change in rainfall patterns caused due to emission of gases that is raising the temperature of earth as the amount of green house gases generated is much more than the capacity of the green cover for absorbing. Impact are being felt everywhere with impacts beyond the national boundaries. There are several recorded evidences that has caused nations to take on the challenge of global warming .Since 1997 UN intergovernmental panel on climate change has been
 meeting and deliberating on the issue . There are several national responses and international agreements. Recently China and US has expressed agreement work on climate. Speaking on occasion of APEC summit in Sydney, Australia Mr. Hu Jintao maintained that ?the United Nations Framework convention? remain the main channel for the international efforts? to address climate change (The Hindu, September 7, 2007). 
The Fourth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), which emphasised the far-reaching consequences that continued global warming would have across the world, has given fresh impetus to finding solution to the problem. The summit meeting of the Group of Eight industrialised countries (G8) held? in June 2007 in Germany saw the launch of new initiatives for collective action by both rich nations and fast-growing developing countries to combat climate change.? In its Fourth Assessment Report, the IPCC, the international body that has the task of weighing scientific evidence on climate change, pointed to definitive evidence that global atmospheric concentration of key greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide had ?increased markedly as a result of human activities since 1750?. These gases were trapping the Earth?s heat that would otherwise have radiated out into space. If the build-up of greenhouse gases and the
 resultant warming of the planet were allowed to continue unchecked, there would be irreversible damage to the eco-systems across the world with suffering for the billions. Already we have evidences about the villages in Gujarat relocating itself away from sea as more and more coastal area are getting submerged in the sea. 
?
Considering the urgent need to respond to climate change, Sewa, Labour League Foundation, Sufi Trust ,Centre for Ecological Audit,Social Inclusion and Governance, a joint initiative of Sewa,labour Foundaiton and Sufi Trust has suggested the following measures:
?

Multiplication of carbon neutral neighbourhood discussions across the cities and villages: These discussions will be initiated by youth and community elders in the neighbourhood where they gather for collective prayer, discussions. The recommendations of the discussion simultaneous action may be presented in the form of a memorandum to the world leader gathered in various summits. The first summit that was covered was the Green House Gas Summit held in Indonesia. The discussions will have local, national and global impacts. Local impact will be generated through transformation of the leisure use pattern, consumption pattern. Email will be used for transmitting the message globally through the e-group posts. The discussions will be facilitated by volunteers or the resident welfare associations will be provided with discussion kits. Volunteers could ?collect feedback on improving the mass communication strategies for reducing personal contribution to the
 green house gases. It is believed that the discussions on the urgency of reducing green house gases will lead to the transformation of personal level consumption patterns. CEASIG believes that personal responses are critical for transformation of the consumption of pattern. Unsustainable consumption patterns can be halted with the personal responses. Personal responses are always part of the global responses. Carbon neutral neighbourhood discussions (CNNDs) will multiply ecologically safe responses across the urban and rural areas.
Multiplication of ecologically safe responses through promotion of green journalism: Production of analytical and advisory outputs through journalists is critical and they are one of the major stakeholders in shaping the opinions, consumption patterns. Journalists writing on lifestyle can substantially influence the consumption pattern of people in the urban. They can help in shaping the tastes and defining the choices. Journalists are important is generating democratic consensus for halting unsustainable consumption patterns. In our times, journalists play a very critical and sometimes they are responsible for defining the social, cultural and political trends. Labour League Foundation wishes to secure the future of working class with ecologically sustainable habitats, consumption patterns.
Catalysing green politics /open politics: Labour league Foundation and Centre for Ecological Audit, Social Inclusion and Governance will be supporting the process for open and transparent politics for instilling the importance of green ideals. It will be organising meetings with the representatives of the various political parties and seek inclusion of ecological considerations in the election manifestoes.
Transformation of leisure use patterns: Labour League Foundations wishes to realise the millennium development goals for eliminating the unsustainable consumption patterns and it wishes to do so through suggesting transformation of the leisure use pattern. It wishes to do so through suggesting adoption of faith based measures that are common across the religious texts. As indicated through the diagrammatic representation of the impact of adoption of faith based measures, it wishes to generate interfaith consensus for acting simultaneously for transforming the leisure use patterns. 
Calculation of ecological footprints, eliminating ecological rucksacks: Labour League Foundation wishes to disseminate the practice of measuring ecological footprints for getting the desired actions for reducing the number of decisions involving emission of green house gases.
Ecological Audit of the consumption patterns: The ecological audit is a concept proposed by the chairman of Labour League Foundation and it will be used along with the calculation of ecological footprints for assessing the impact of various decision, consumption and production patterns.
Ecological Audit of the production patterns: Production processes need to be assessed for sustainability. There are ecologically sustainable and unsustainable production processes. The workshops with corporations interested in realising the millennium development goals will be conducted for getting in the changes in production processes.
Ecological Audit of the transport patterns: Renewable resource based transport systems are sustainable and non-renewable resource based transport systems are not sustainable. Ecological Audit of the transport systems will be done with ministries dealing with transport.
Ecological Audit of the leisure use patterns: There are leisure use patterns that do not use green house gas producing fossil fuels and there are leisure use pattern that are based on renewable resources and that does not involve consumption of fossil fuels. Workshop with the neighbourhood discussion leaders and resident welfare associations be conducted for necessary transformation of leisure use patterns. Children, youths and elders be encouraged to adopt faith based measures for relaxation and stress busting.
Interfaith dialogue for addressing the climate change, farmer?s suicides, and social security for workers in unorganized sector, transforming finance sector: Appreciation of the common commands for prayer, donation, compassion, charity and prohibition of usury, adultery, and homosexuality is needed with wider dissemination of the same. Adoption of these commands addresses the challenge of climate change, ecologically hostile usurious system; Inter-faith dialogue will ensure generation of responses across the faith groups. Delhi has a vibrant culture of interfaith dialogue. Sant Rajinder Singh of Sawan Kripal Ashram has been conducting the same for many years. Organisations/ individuals independently or in collaboration with other organisation may work for generating more forums of interfaith dialogue with special reference to mitigating climate change.
National Convention on Inter Faith common responses for addressing the climate change: A national convention will be organised for generating consensus for adoption of faith based measures for addressing the climate change. There are cultural responses for fighting the atheistic neo-liberal cultural trends emanating from Europe and copied by youth in the name of globalisation and modernity. National Convention could address the issue of climate change through adopting the interfaith commons while maintaining in some forms of dietary, sartorial, linguistic, religious diversity.
Youth colloquiums ( Majlis-e-Naujawan)for contributing in the mitigation of the impacts of climate change: LLF recognises the critical role of youths as an organisation led by youths. Green youth forums ??formed and discussions are held for getting the desired response pattern for halting the expansion of unsustainable consumption pattern and leisure use pattern through adoption of faith based measures.
?
What are carbon neutral neighborhood discussions?
???????? The discussions, conversation, conferences that are held in the neighborhood with all who can be reached by foot or carbon neutral transport such as bicycle, bullock carts, horse driven carriages and others
???????? The discussion that we hold at? home and in the neighborhood spaces such as parks, tea/ coffee ,vegetable shops, milk shops-all in the neighborhood and nearby habitations, localities and . 
CNNDs on what?
???????? Personal responses for reducing the emission of green house gases
???????? Transforming travel decisions for energy intensive leisure i.e. Leisure using GHG emitting transport and venues such as bars and discotheques
???????? Alternative ways for getting the feeling of wellbeing including faith base practices such as practice of prayer, meditation individually and collectively 
CNNDs with whom
???????? With all irrespective of class, caste, race, religion, ethnicity, gender etc. as we all are contributors to the emission of green house gases in various measures and the impacts of the climate change are affecting? us all
???????? With children who could contribute through avoiding the green house gas emitting engagements
???????? With women who are the potential consumers of the fossil fuel based energy, services and leisure
???????? With youth who are the potential consumers of the fossil fuel based energy, services and leisure
???????? With community leaders who are the potential consumers of the fossil fuel based energy, services and leisure
With all
???????? Who are potential contributor to the emission of green house gases
???????? All of us are the potential contributor to the emission of green house gases
???????? Both poor and rich, black and white, brown and yellow
???????? Across the nations, across the neighborhoods
???????? With men and women across the age groups
???????? With friends and foes 
What is needed for CNNDs?
???????? Information on climate change and its reasons
???????? Commitments for communicating the same 
???????? Setting personal examples of one is responding for addressing the impacts of climate change
???????? Desire to talk to people in the neighborhood
???????? Spaces for conducting the CNNDs 
???????? A group of friends or relatives in the neighborhood 
Communicating ecological audit
???????? Ecological audit of the consumption patterns- there is need to communicate ecological audit of the consumption patterns so that we are sure that we consume for survival and not for luxury and exhibition.
???????? Ecological audit of the transport patterns- reduction in fossil fuel based transport is critical for reducing emission of green house gases. It is important to consider the interests of future generations for ecological safe habitats. Fossil fuel based transports have a short history and short future. There is need to prepare for the end of petro-modern times
???????? Ecological audit of the use of water, energy, food and time 
???????? Ecological audit of the travel needs
Impacts 
???????? Reduction in the personal contribution to the emission of green house gases
???????? Multiplication of the discussion across the neighborhoods
???????? Multiplication of the personal decisions for reducing the emission of green house gases
???????? Adoption of neighborhood carbon neutral measures for leisure ,relaxation, spiritual wellbeing and procuring the provisions 
?
?
?

--- On Tue, 20/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [GJM] [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Tuesday, 20 January, 2009, 4:02 PM








--- On Tue, 20/1/09, William Hugh McGunnigle <wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz> wrote:

From: William Hugh McGunnigle <wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Tuesday, 20 January, 2009, 4:32 AM





HI Wallace 
??????????????? You appear to have misunderstood my comment. I did not state that automation was "perverse"? but that it had been "perverted" meaning that it was no longer allowing people to have more Liesure time but that those who were implementing the automation were doing so in order to eliminate oportuniites for human employment and thereby depriving humans of the means to "earn a salary or wage" that would enable them to take adventage of the improved and more efficient production of goods and services. am in agreement with all your other observations.
????? Bill McGunnigle

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Wallace Klinck 
To: socialcredit at elistas.com 
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Just a note to advise that automation is not perverse but is a blessing enabling society to produce wealth with far less labour input for a given output of production. ?The purpose of a economic system is not to provide work but to provide a maximum of consumer-desired goods and services with a minimum of cost input, of which labor is, and should be, ?a diminishing factor. ?Having more people working does nothing to solve the defect in the price-system and would just produce even more consumer wealth for which the population would not have sufficient financial income to buy. ?This would necessitate even more consumer debt if the consumer items are to be sold. ?There, is, of course not the slightest justification for our present so-called "credit crunch" and economic turndown. ?It has been caused by excessive debt?which has eroded the liquidity of the financial system, has resulted in?credit restriction and reduced consumer income and spending.
 ?There should be no need for consumer debt on the overall whatsoever. ?If the deficiency of purchasing power resulting from an excess of financial costs relative to income in each cycle of production had been met by the Douglas measures of consumer credit issued without debt in the form of a National (Consumer) Dividend and Compensated (Retail) Prices, instead of the Keynesian policy of financing consumption with new money issued as bank debt, there could be no credit crisis. ?The financial system would be self-liquidating at all stages and we would enjoy full access to consumer production with falling retail prices and increasing opportunity for leisure. 
Sincerely
Wally Klinck



On 15-Jan-09, at 11:11 PM, William Hugh McGunnigle wrote:



HI Helge Nome
???????????????????? Your Comments about our modern society are very valid especially your obsrevation that the ills that Douglas identified are still? with us. I find that the biggest problem we have to overcome is ignorance of the way our present system of economics operates. Particularly the old myth that banks get their?funds for lending from their deposits, It is very difficult to convince people that the 'credit' extended?to them in loans and overdrafts etc is simply a book entry and created out of thin air, and in reality there is no " pile of gold" hidden in the bank vaults to back up the funds they have lent out. They also don't realise that the government allows private banks to issue the money supply that keeps our society running, and that their manipulation of that money supply affects the amount of commerce that takes place and consequently the number of people who are employed. The horrible situation we have at
 present has been perverted by automation leading to fewer employment oportunities, and consequently fewer people actually earning enough to absorb increases in production. The other observation that much of modern production is employed making frivolous and similar items is also valid. This is a consequence of our present system that has to have something to absorb the surplus production and surplus labour. IT is a treadmill from which there appears to be no escape while the present financial system persists.
Bill McGunnigle

----- Original Message -----
From:?helge nome
To:?Socialcreditlist?;?Len Skowronski
Sent:?Tuesday, January 13, 2009 3:24 PM
Subject:?RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

I would like to comment on some changes that have taken place in the world since the time when Douglas entered upon the world stage.?
>From reading his writings it appears that the prevailing belief at that time was that industrialization of production would lead to more leisure by an ever increasing number of people. And since you don't pay machines a wage to produce goods and services, the amount of purchasing power provided to a shrinking number of workers for producing
those goods and services would be wholly inadequate to buy them and so make continuing funds available to finance ongoing production.?
In order to deal with this problem the "leisured" class of people would be given access to free credit to purchase the excess goods and services available and, in the process, provide the required funds to maintain production.. A win-win for everybody.? (I suspect Douglas had in mind the British aristocracy when he envisioned a "leisured" class of people because that was part of his experience growing up).
However, society did not develop quite the way envisioned: As affluence increased, people developed an insatiable appetite for ever more frivolous goods and services, making everybody even more busy than they were before!
As a result we now have a world that is choking in waste products from an overheated production system fueled by debt based credit (instead of free credit) where the people who made the ledger entries to create new money not only claim ownership of the stuff, but also claim interest on it for the arduous task of pushing a few keyboard buttons!
Awesome audacity. And they are actually getting away with it because most people don't understand what they are doing.
?Giving them that understanding is our job in the Social Credit Movement
Regards,
Helge



From:?wmklinck at shaw.ca
To:?socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:19:12 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Per, Social Credit has no intention of "adjusting to the realities of to-day." ?The so-called "realities" of the present are the evils which Social Credit aims to eliminate or rectify. ?Of prime concern is the elimination of both the threat and reality of the Servile State--whether it be fascist, communist, socialist, that of Keynesian debt-finance or any form of totalitarian or semi-totalitarian regime. ?As Douglas avered, we must build up from the individual and not down from the state. ?Systems were made for men and not men for systems. ?Economic policy must originate with individual consumers and not from the state. ?The ills that Douglas identified have only become more accentuated and more entrenched than when he wrote. ?Social Credit becomes more applicable with every increase in technological efficiency which displaces labor with technology and hence is even more appropriate than when Douglas began writing on the subject--which became
 known as Social Credit. ?I note that you have for some time made submissions to this group. ?The group exists to study the subject of Douglas Social Credit and anyone who contributes to it should reasonably be expected to have made a sincere and serious effort to read and understand the written works of Douglas and his close supporters. ?Would you kindly indicate to the group?specifically?which of those works you have read diligently so that those of the group might be informed as to your qualifications to expound on the subject. ?I am sure that you will agree that this is a fair request. 
Sincerely
Wally





On 9-Jan-09, at 2:56 PM, Per Almgren wrote:


Joe Thomson skrev:

(John Rawson wrote:-) ?Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course, with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to link us further with anti-semitism.

(Joe replies:-) ?Linking "us further with anti-semitism" would be the least of my concerns over this method of approach, John. ?You may not be aware of it, but what you are proposing is the ?building of a totalitarian "slave state", ?not a one in which "individual" freedom will be allowed to develop and flourish. ?That the "slaves" will be well fed and quartered, while they're needed, is of little consequence. ?They're still "slaves", beholden for their continued ?sustenance to "servitude" to the "State" and the "system" it imposes on them.
In my opinion this writing of "slave state" is not what John describes. My impression now is that there is to much arguing of what Douglas have expressed in a special situation in this list and I think that if Social Credit should be of any use in the future, ?it must be allowed to adjust to realities of to-day. If no new thinking is accepted, there is not much use to discuss, it would just be a seminar of history, not a forum for promoting useful ideas for practical use in the society.

This is the very antithesis of "Social Credit". ??It is "Fascism" without the more odious facets of that failed system fully revealing themselves. ?Which they soon would, if ever it were imposed. ?It is interesting that we have been duped into calling this 'anti-semitism' considering where such a policy likely originated.?
This could not be called Fascism in the common meaning of the word.

Per Almgren

(John continues:-) And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the same category, which is ridiculous.

(Joe replies:-) ?It is "repaid", John. ?It cancels that portion of /existing/ debt charges that could not otherwise be repaid. ?Without creating ANOTHER debt charge in the process. ?It is an "accounting adjustment" carried out in the economy as a whole to more fully allow the overall costs of production to be FINANCIALLY, as well as 'physically', self-liquidating with consumption. ??(John continues:-) An independent Credit Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political decision, even if it only considered a divarication between discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

(Joe replies:-) ?I can ?generally agree with that provided it be realized this "new money" is applied to reducing prices to ?Consumers FIRST, not ?to funding other things which have additional "costs".

Regards,

Joe?

???----- Original Message -----

???*From:* John G Rawson <mailto:johngrawson at hotmail.com>

???*To:* Socred elistas <mailto:socialcredit at elistas.com>

???*Sent:* Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:07 PM

???*Subject:* RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



???For the first parts, you have valid points. ?I have never debated

???whether or not some form of price control might be necessary. But

???based on the rather inane information that had previously been

???circulated, I could not see how this particular mechanism could be

???practicable. Your new information at least clears part of that

???objection.

???Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation.. And

???yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course,

???with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns

???etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to

???link us further with anti-semitism.

???And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid

???means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the

???same category, which is ridiculous. An independent Credit

???Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into

???circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand

???inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political

???decision, even if it only considered a divarication between

???discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

???The Ottawa agreement did nothing to increase trade or spending

???power. ?All it did was to close shop against other nations. And

???one of its minor sidelines was to force us to buy useless strains

???of forest seed from you rather than the USA. The Douglas fir

???appeared to have come from somewhere inside the arctic circle,

???because the lengtrh of day effect made it bud burst far too early

???in the spring so that it got frost-burned in our much milder

???climate in the central Nth. Is. Then it hardened off about

???Christmas and ceased growing through all the warm summer and

???autumn period. ?I remember a compartment in Kaingaroa Forest

???planted with both this strain and a normal one from Washington or

???wherever. The boundary looked like a sudden cliff face as the

???canopy dropped from one to the other.The only point I was making

???over food subsidies was that we had a humanitarian government that

???helped both public health and a major industry by the use of

???debt-free credit. Rooseveldt's New Deal did something the same

???thing on borrowed money. War expenditure finallly brought us right

???out, and as a point of interest NZ (with strict import controls)

???came out of the war with zero overseas debt. (And a bureaucracy

???subsidised less healthy white floured bread, not wholemeal!)

???But the government didn't "have to" subsidise food. People were

???starving and it used one method to help them. Coming from a

???(broke, ex-serviceman's) farm, I never went hungry. But I knew men

???my age whose developmenmt was stunted for that reason.

???It seems we may have to revisit times like that before enough

???people will again consider monetary reform. in any shape, SC or other.



???John R.



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From rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com  Tue Jan 20 03:53:31 2009
From: rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com (Rodney Shakespeare)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:53:31 -0000
Subject: [GJM] Fw: Re: "fiscal accrual"................What is this?
References: <133517.80196.qm@web27407.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006901c97aed$56778100$0301a8c0@your447023ae6b>

Robert & Ellen,
This is probably a reference to capital accrual accounting 


Rodney Shakespeare.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: robert searle 
  To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net 
  Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:36 AM
  Subject: Re: [GJM] Fw: Re: "fiscal accrual"................What is this?




        --- On Mon, 19/1/09, Richard Mermin <rmermin at nvbell.net> wrote:

          From: Richard Mermin <rmermin at nvbell.net>
          Subject: Fw: Re: "fiscal accrual"
          To: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
          Date: Monday, 19 January, 2009, 10:36 PM


                following is the  record of an exchange that seems to have stalled for the moment.  From your postings I get the hope you may be able to carry it further.  Fiscal accrual may be just what we need to rescue the world economy with attempting radical political  overhaul all at once.  Can you help us find more about it?

                RICHARD MERMIN
                1111 Cordero Dr
                Carson City NV 89703
                775 883 8496 ph&fax

                --- On Thu, 1/15/09, Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com> wrote:

                  From: Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com>
                  Subject: Re: "fiscal accrual"
                  To: rmermin at nvbell.net
                  Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 12:01 AM


                  If so, they're not talking about it.  Thanks, Ellen


                  On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:54 PM, Richard Mermin <rmermin at nvbell.net> wrote:


                          I've forwarded our exchange to a top NZ  accountant, dunno if he  will reply.  Likely you have acquaintance (readers?) who might know more about "fiscal accrual?"  It may be a system already in place that can save the world economy? 


                          RICHARD MERMIN
                          1111 Cordero Dr
                          Carson City NV 89703
                          775 883 8496 ph&fax


                          --- On Wed, 1/14/09, Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com> wrote:

                            From: Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com>
                            Subject: Re: "fiscal accrual"
                            To: "Richard Mermin" <rmermin at nvbell.net>, rmermin at gmail.com
                            Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 9:10 PM 



                            Hm, I couldn't find anything specific on it either.  


                            On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 8:58 PM, Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com> wrote:

                              Excellent tip.  I'll research it.  Thanks! 



                              On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:43 PM, Richard Mermin <rmermin at nvbell.net> wrote:

                                is the name of an accounting protocol adopted by New Zealand and Australia.  In practice it means that money issued by government for infrastucture is balanced by showing the completed work as an asset.  If I understand  correctly, there should be no need for bonds, interest, borrowing,  taxes, for repayment.  Very much like your proposals I believe, with added kicker that it seems to be employed actually by responsible authorities.

                                I have not been able to find anything written on  the use of this device or possible deployment by US or state governments.  What do you make of it?  would appreciate your comments!

                                I've  been distributing your articles to practically every acquaintance whom I thought might be interested or at least intrigued.  Scarcely a nibble!  and some of these people have lost millions, and argue politics incessantly.

                                If you will reply, please copy to rmermin at gmail.com.  ATT has been blocking many emails to me,  "to protect from spam or phishing!" - they admit that, but won't correct it.

                                RICHARD MERMIN
                                1111 Cordero Dr
                                Carson City NV 89703
                                775 883 8496 ph&fax 




                         


               
       




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From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 20 03:53:01 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:23:01 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] Sharing a note on Carbon Neutral Neigbourhood Discussions
	for mitigating climate change
In-Reply-To: <733233.59729.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <185213.43540.qm@web94907.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Multiplying Carbon Neutral Neighborhood Discussions (CNNDs) for reducing the emission of GHGs
-Dr. Muhammad Mukhtar Alam 
?
The reports on the impacts of climate change caused by the globalization of non-renewable resource based consumption, production, habitats and transport and so on are well known such as global warming, deforestation, rise in sea level, melting of glaciers and others. Internal Panel on Climate on Climate Change has been producing reports on the impacts of the climate change.. We need to work for minimizing the emissions of the green house gases. Climate change through with rise in temperature of earth, change in rainfall patterns caused due to emission of gases that is raising the temperature of earth as the amount of green house gases generated is much more than the capacity of the green cover for absorbing. Impact are being felt everywhere with impacts beyond the national boundaries. There are several recorded evidences that has caused nations to take on the challenge of global warming .Since 1997 UN intergovernmental panel on climate change has been
 meeting and deliberating on the issue . There are several national responses and international agreements. Recently China and US has expressed agreement work on climate. Speaking on occasion of APEC summit in Sydney, Australia Mr. Hu Jintao maintained that ?the United Nations Framework convention? remain the main channel for the international efforts? to address climate change (The Hindu, September 7, 2007). 
The Fourth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), which emphasised the far-reaching consequences that continued global warming would have across the world, has given fresh impetus to finding solution to the problem. The summit meeting of the Group of Eight industrialised countries (G8) held? in June 2007 in Germany saw the launch of new initiatives for collective action by both rich nations and fast-growing developing countries to combat climate change.? In its Fourth Assessment Report, the IPCC, the international body that has the task of weighing scientific evidence on climate change, pointed to definitive evidence that global atmospheric concentration of key greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide had ?increased markedly as a result of human activities since 1750?. These gases were trapping the Earth?s heat that would otherwise have radiated out into space. If the build-up of greenhouse gases and the
 resultant warming of the planet were allowed to continue unchecked, there would be irreversible damage to the eco-systems across the world with suffering for the billions. Already we have evidences about the villages in Gujarat relocating itself away from sea as more and more coastal area are getting submerged in the sea. 
?
Considering the urgent need to respond to climate change, Sewa, Labour League Foundation, Sufi Trust ,Centre for Ecological Audit,Social Inclusion and Governance, a joint initiative of Sewa,labour Foundaiton and Sufi Trust has suggested the following measures:
?

Multiplication of carbon neutral neighbourhood discussions across the cities and villages: These discussions will be initiated by youth and community elders in the neighbourhood where they gather for collective prayer, discussions. The recommendations of the discussion simultaneous action may be presented in the form of a memorandum to the world leader gathered in various summits. The first summit that was covered was the Green House Gas Summit held in Indonesia. The discussions will have local, national and global impacts. Local impact will be generated through transformation of the leisure use pattern, consumption pattern. Email will be used for transmitting the message globally through the e-group posts. The discussions will be facilitated by volunteers or the resident welfare associations will be provided with discussion kits. Volunteers could ?collect feedback on improving the mass communication strategies for reducing personal contribution to the
 green house gases. It is believed that the discussions on the urgency of reducing green house gases will lead to the transformation of personal level consumption patterns. CEASIG believes that personal responses are critical for transformation of the consumption of pattern. Unsustainable consumption patterns can be halted with the personal responses. Personal responses are always part of the global responses. Carbon neutral neighbourhood discussions (CNNDs) will multiply ecologically safe responses across the urban and rural areas.
Multiplication of ecologically safe responses through promotion of green journalism: Production of analytical and advisory outputs through journalists is critical and they are one of the major stakeholders in shaping the opinions, consumption patterns. Journalists writing on lifestyle can substantially influence the consumption pattern of people in the urban. They can help in shaping the tastes and defining the choices. Journalists are important is generating democratic consensus for halting unsustainable consumption patterns. In our times, journalists play a very critical and sometimes they are responsible for defining the social, cultural and political trends. Labour League Foundation wishes to secure the future of working class with ecologically sustainable habitats, consumption patterns.
Catalysing green politics /open politics: Labour league Foundation and Centre for Ecological Audit, Social Inclusion and Governance will be supporting the process for open and transparent politics for instilling the importance of green ideals. It will be organising meetings with the representatives of the various political parties and seek inclusion of ecological considerations in the election manifestoes.
Transformation of leisure use patterns: Labour League Foundations wishes to realise the millennium development goals for eliminating the unsustainable consumption patterns and it wishes to do so through suggesting transformation of the leisure use pattern. It wishes to do so through suggesting adoption of faith based measures that are common across the religious texts. As indicated through the diagrammatic representation of the impact of adoption of faith based measures, it wishes to generate interfaith consensus for acting simultaneously for transforming the leisure use patterns. 
Calculation of ecological footprints, eliminating ecological rucksacks: Labour League Foundation wishes to disseminate the practice of measuring ecological footprints for getting the desired actions for reducing the number of decisions involving emission of green house gases.
Ecological Audit of the consumption patterns: The ecological audit is a concept proposed by the chairman of Labour League Foundation and it will be used along with the calculation of ecological footprints for assessing the impact of various decision, consumption and production patterns.
Ecological Audit of the production patterns: Production processes need to be assessed for sustainability. There are ecologically sustainable and unsustainable production processes. The workshops with corporations interested in realising the millennium development goals will be conducted for getting in the changes in production processes.
Ecological Audit of the transport patterns: Renewable resource based transport systems are sustainable and non-renewable resource based transport systems are not sustainable. Ecological Audit of the transport systems will be done with ministries dealing with transport.
Ecological Audit of the leisure use patterns: There are leisure use patterns that do not use green house gas producing fossil fuels and there are leisure use pattern that are based on renewable resources and that does not involve consumption of fossil fuels. Workshop with the neighbourhood discussion leaders and resident welfare associations be conducted for necessary transformation of leisure use patterns. Children, youths and elders be encouraged to adopt faith based measures for relaxation and stress busting.
Interfaith dialogue for addressing the climate change, farmer?s suicides, and social security for workers in unorganized sector, transforming finance sector: Appreciation of the common commands for prayer, donation, compassion, charity and prohibition of usury, adultery, and homosexuality is needed with wider dissemination of the same. Adoption of these commands addresses the challenge of climate change, ecologically hostile usurious system; Inter-faith dialogue will ensure generation of responses across the faith groups. Delhi has a vibrant culture of interfaith dialogue. Sant Rajinder Singh of Sawan Kripal Ashram has been conducting the same for many years. Organisations/ individuals independently or in collaboration with other organisation may work for generating more forums of interfaith dialogue with special reference to mitigating climate change.
National Convention on Inter Faith common responses for addressing the climate change: A national convention will be organised for generating consensus for adoption of faith based measures for addressing the climate change. There are cultural responses for fighting the atheistic neo-liberal cultural trends emanating from Europe and copied by youth in the name of globalisation and modernity. National Convention could address the issue of climate change through adopting the interfaith commons while maintaining in some forms of dietary, sartorial, linguistic, religious diversity.
Youth colloquiums ( Majlis-e-Naujawan)for contributing in the mitigation of the impacts of climate change: LLF recognises the critical role of youths as an organisation led by youths. Green youth forums ??formed and discussions are held for getting the desired response pattern for halting the expansion of unsustainable consumption pattern and leisure use pattern through adoption of faith based measures.
?
What are carbon neutral neighborhood discussions?
???????? The discussions, conversation, conferences that are held in the neighborhood with all who can be reached by foot or carbon neutral transport such as bicycle, bullock carts, horse driven carriages and others
???????? The discussion that we hold at? home and in the neighborhood spaces such as parks, tea/ coffee ,vegetable shops, milk shops-all in the neighborhood and nearby habitations, localities and . 
CNNDs on what?
???????? Personal responses for reducing the emission of green house gases
???????? Transforming travel decisions for energy intensive leisure i.e. Leisure using GHG emitting transport and venues such as bars and discotheques
???????? Alternative ways for getting the feeling of wellbeing including faith base practices such as practice of prayer, meditation individually and collectively 
CNNDs with whom
???????? With all irrespective of class, caste, race, religion, ethnicity, gender etc. as we all are contributors to the emission of green house gases in various measures and the impacts of the climate change are affecting? us all
???????? With children who could contribute through avoiding the green house gas emitting engagements
???????? With women who are the potential consumers of the fossil fuel based energy, services and leisure
???????? With youth who are the potential consumers of the fossil fuel based energy, services and leisure
???????? With community leaders who are the potential consumers of the fossil fuel based energy, services and leisure
With all
???????? Who are potential contributor to the emission of green house gases
???????? All of us are the potential contributor to the emission of green house gases
???????? Both poor and rich, black and white, brown and yellow
???????? Across the nations, across the neighborhoods
???????? With men and women across the age groups
???????? With friends and foes 
What is needed for CNNDs?
???????? Information on climate change and its reasons
???????? Commitments for communicating the same 
???????? Setting personal examples of one is responding for addressing the impacts of climate change
???????? Desire to talk to people in the neighborhood
???????? Spaces for conducting the CNNDs 
???????? A group of friends or relatives in the neighborhood 
Communicating ecological audit
???????? Ecological audit of the consumption patterns- there is need to communicate ecological audit of the consumption patterns so that we are sure that we consume for survival and not for luxury and exhibition.
???????? Ecological audit of the transport patterns- reduction in fossil fuel based transport is critical for reducing emission of green house gases. It is important to consider the interests of future generations for ecological safe habitats. Fossil fuel based transports have a short history and short future. There is need to prepare for the end of petro-modern times
???????? Ecological audit of the use of water, energy, food and time 
???????? Ecological audit of the travel needs
Impacts 
???????? Reduction in the personal contribution to the emission of green house gases
???????? Multiplication of the discussion across the neighborhoods
???????? Multiplication of the personal decisions for reducing the emission of green house gases
???????? Adoption of neighborhood carbon neutral measures for leisure ,relaxation, spiritual wellbeing and procuring the provisions 
?
?
?

--- On Tue, 20/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [GJM] [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Tuesday, 20 January, 2009, 4:02 PM








--- On Tue, 20/1/09, William Hugh McGunnigle <wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz> wrote:

From: William Hugh McGunnigle <wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Tuesday, 20 January, 2009, 4:32 AM





HI Wallace 
??????????????? You appear to have misunderstood my comment. I did not state that automation was "perverse"? but that it had been "perverted" meaning that it was no longer allowing people to have more Liesure time but that those who were implementing the automation were doing so in order to eliminate oportuniites for human employment and thereby depriving humans of the means to "earn a salary or wage" that would enable them to take adventage of the improved and more efficient production of goods and services. am in agreement with all your other observations.
????? Bill McGunnigle

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Wallace Klinck 
To: socialcredit at elistas.com 
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Just a note to advise that automation is not perverse but is a blessing enabling society to produce wealth with far less labour input for a given output of production. ?The purpose of a economic system is not to provide work but to provide a maximum of consumer-desired goods and services with a minimum of cost input, of which labor is, and should be, ?a diminishing factor. ?Having more people working does nothing to solve the defect in the price-system and would just produce even more consumer wealth for which the population would not have sufficient financial income to buy. ?This would necessitate even more consumer debt if the consumer items are to be sold. ?There, is, of course not the slightest justification for our present so-called "credit crunch" and economic turndown. ?It has been caused by excessive debt?which has eroded the liquidity of the financial system, has resulted in?credit restriction and reduced consumer income and spending.
 ?There should be no need for consumer debt on the overall whatsoever. ?If the deficiency of purchasing power resulting from an excess of financial costs relative to income in each cycle of production had been met by the Douglas measures of consumer credit issued without debt in the form of a National (Consumer) Dividend and Compensated (Retail) Prices, instead of the Keynesian policy of financing consumption with new money issued as bank debt, there could be no credit crisis. ?The financial system would be self-liquidating at all stages and we would enjoy full access to consumer production with falling retail prices and increasing opportunity for leisure. 
Sincerely
Wally Klinck



On 15-Jan-09, at 11:11 PM, William Hugh McGunnigle wrote:



HI Helge Nome
???????????????????? Your Comments about our modern society are very valid especially your obsrevation that the ills that Douglas identified are still? with us. I find that the biggest problem we have to overcome is ignorance of the way our present system of economics operates. Particularly the old myth that banks get their?funds for lending from their deposits, It is very difficult to convince people that the 'credit' extended?to them in loans and overdrafts etc is simply a book entry and created out of thin air, and in reality there is no " pile of gold" hidden in the bank vaults to back up the funds they have lent out. They also don't realise that the government allows private banks to issue the money supply that keeps our society running, and that their manipulation of that money supply affects the amount of commerce that takes place and consequently the number of people who are employed. The horrible situation we have at
 present has been perverted by automation leading to fewer employment oportunities, and consequently fewer people actually earning enough to absorb increases in production. The other observation that much of modern production is employed making frivolous and similar items is also valid. This is a consequence of our present system that has to have something to absorb the surplus production and surplus labour. IT is a treadmill from which there appears to be no escape while the present financial system persists.
Bill McGunnigle

----- Original Message -----
From:?helge nome
To:?Socialcreditlist?;?Len Skowronski
Sent:?Tuesday, January 13, 2009 3:24 PM
Subject:?RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

I would like to comment on some changes that have taken place in the world since the time when Douglas entered upon the world stage.?
>From reading his writings it appears that the prevailing belief at that time was that industrialization of production would lead to more leisure by an ever increasing number of people. And since you don't pay machines a wage to produce goods and services, the amount of purchasing power provided to a shrinking number of workers for producing
those goods and services would be wholly inadequate to buy them and so make continuing funds available to finance ongoing production.?
In order to deal with this problem the "leisured" class of people would be given access to free credit to purchase the excess goods and services available and, in the process, provide the required funds to maintain production.. A win-win for everybody.? (I suspect Douglas had in mind the British aristocracy when he envisioned a "leisured" class of people because that was part of his experience growing up).
However, society did not develop quite the way envisioned: As affluence increased, people developed an insatiable appetite for ever more frivolous goods and services, making everybody even more busy than they were before!
As a result we now have a world that is choking in waste products from an overheated production system fueled by debt based credit (instead of free credit) where the people who made the ledger entries to create new money not only claim ownership of the stuff, but also claim interest on it for the arduous task of pushing a few keyboard buttons!
Awesome audacity. And they are actually getting away with it because most people don't understand what they are doing.
?Giving them that understanding is our job in the Social Credit Movement
Regards,
Helge



From:?wmklinck at shaw.ca
To:?socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:19:12 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info

Per, Social Credit has no intention of "adjusting to the realities of to-day." ?The so-called "realities" of the present are the evils which Social Credit aims to eliminate or rectify. ?Of prime concern is the elimination of both the threat and reality of the Servile State--whether it be fascist, communist, socialist, that of Keynesian debt-finance or any form of totalitarian or semi-totalitarian regime. ?As Douglas avered, we must build up from the individual and not down from the state. ?Systems were made for men and not men for systems. ?Economic policy must originate with individual consumers and not from the state. ?The ills that Douglas identified have only become more accentuated and more entrenched than when he wrote. ?Social Credit becomes more applicable with every increase in technological efficiency which displaces labor with technology and hence is even more appropriate than when Douglas began writing on the subject--which became
 known as Social Credit. ?I note that you have for some time made submissions to this group. ?The group exists to study the subject of Douglas Social Credit and anyone who contributes to it should reasonably be expected to have made a sincere and serious effort to read and understand the written works of Douglas and his close supporters. ?Would you kindly indicate to the group?specifically?which of those works you have read diligently so that those of the group might be informed as to your qualifications to expound on the subject. ?I am sure that you will agree that this is a fair request. 
Sincerely
Wally





On 9-Jan-09, at 2:56 PM, Per Almgren wrote:


Joe Thomson skrev:

(John Rawson wrote:-) ?Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course, with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to link us further with anti-semitism.

(Joe replies:-) ?Linking "us further with anti-semitism" would be the least of my concerns over this method of approach, John. ?You may not be aware of it, but what you are proposing is the ?building of a totalitarian "slave state", ?not a one in which "individual" freedom will be allowed to develop and flourish. ?That the "slaves" will be well fed and quartered, while they're needed, is of little consequence. ?They're still "slaves", beholden for their continued ?sustenance to "servitude" to the "State" and the "system" it imposes on them.
In my opinion this writing of "slave state" is not what John describes. My impression now is that there is to much arguing of what Douglas have expressed in a special situation in this list and I think that if Social Credit should be of any use in the future, ?it must be allowed to adjust to realities of to-day. If no new thinking is accepted, there is not much use to discuss, it would just be a seminar of history, not a forum for promoting useful ideas for practical use in the society.

This is the very antithesis of "Social Credit". ??It is "Fascism" without the more odious facets of that failed system fully revealing themselves. ?Which they soon would, if ever it were imposed. ?It is interesting that we have been duped into calling this 'anti-semitism' considering where such a policy likely originated.?
This could not be called Fascism in the common meaning of the word.

Per Almgren

(John continues:-) And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the same category, which is ridiculous.

(Joe replies:-) ?It is "repaid", John. ?It cancels that portion of /existing/ debt charges that could not otherwise be repaid. ?Without creating ANOTHER debt charge in the process. ?It is an "accounting adjustment" carried out in the economy as a whole to more fully allow the overall costs of production to be FINANCIALLY, as well as 'physically', self-liquidating with consumption. ??(John continues:-) An independent Credit Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political decision, even if it only considered a divarication between discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

(Joe replies:-) ?I can ?generally agree with that provided it be realized this "new money" is applied to reducing prices to ?Consumers FIRST, not ?to funding other things which have additional "costs".

Regards,

Joe?

???----- Original Message -----

???*From:* John G Rawson <mailto:johngrawson at hotmail.com>

???*To:* Socred elistas <mailto:socialcredit at elistas.com>

???*Sent:* Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:07 PM

???*Subject:* RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info



???For the first parts, you have valid points. ?I have never debated

???whether or not some form of price control might be necessary. But

???based on the rather inane information that had previously been

???circulated, I could not see how this particular mechanism could be

???practicable. Your new information at least clears part of that

???objection.

???Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation.. And

???yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course,

???with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns

???etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to

???link us further with anti-semitism.

???And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid

???means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the

???same category, which is ridiculous. An independent Credit

???Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into

???circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand

???inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political

???decision, even if it only considered a divarication between

???discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.

???The Ottawa agreement did nothing to increase trade or spending

???power. ?All it did was to close shop against other nations. And

???one of its minor sidelines was to force us to buy useless strains

???of forest seed from you rather than the USA. The Douglas fir

???appeared to have come from somewhere inside the arctic circle,

???because the lengtrh of day effect made it bud burst far too early

???in the spring so that it got frost-burned in our much milder

???climate in the central Nth. Is. Then it hardened off about

???Christmas and ceased growing through all the warm summer and

???autumn period. ?I remember a compartment in Kaingaroa Forest

???planted with both this strain and a normal one from Washington or

???wherever. The boundary looked like a sudden cliff face as the

???canopy dropped from one to the other.The only point I was making

???over food subsidies was that we had a humanitarian government that

???helped both public health and a major industry by the use of

???debt-free credit. Rooseveldt's New Deal did something the same

???thing on borrowed money. War expenditure finallly brought us right

???out, and as a point of interest NZ (with strict import controls)

???came out of the war with zero overseas debt. (And a bureaucracy

???subsidised less healthy white floured bread, not wholemeal!)

???But the government didn't "have to" subsidise food. People were

???starving and it used one method to help them. Coming from a

???(broke, ex-serviceman's) farm, I never went hungry. But I knew men

???my age whose developmenmt was stunted for that reason.

???It seems we may have to revisit times like that before enough

???people will again consider monetary reform. in any shape, SC or other.



???John R.



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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan 20 04:00:30 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 11:00:30 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Fw: Re: "fiscal accrual"................What is this?
In-Reply-To: <006901c97aed$56778100$0301a8c0@your447023ae6b>
Message-ID: <195609.98941.qm@web27406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

? Dear Rodney,
?
???????? So, you think this could be a misinterpretation of some facet of accounting?
?
? Robert Searle

--- On Tue, 20/1/09, Rodney Shakespeare <rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com> wrote:

From: Rodney Shakespeare <rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: [GJM] Fw: Re: "fiscal accrual"................What is this?
To: "Ellen Brown" <ellenhbrown at gmail.com>, "Discussion Forum for Global Justice" <discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>
Date: Tuesday, 20 January, 2009, 10:53 AM


? 


Robert & Ellen,
This is probably a reference to capital accrual accounting 
?
?
Rodney Shakespeare.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: robert searle 
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net 
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: [GJM] Fw: Re: "fiscal accrual"................What is this?







--- On Mon, 19/1/09, Richard Mermin <rmermin at nvbell.net> wrote:

From: Richard Mermin <rmermin at nvbell.net>
Subject: Fw: Re: "fiscal accrual"
To: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Monday, 19 January, 2009, 10:36 PM






following is the? record of an exchange that seems to have stalled for the moment.? From your postings I get the hope you may be able to carry it further.? Fiscal accrual may be just what we need to rescue the world economy with attempting radical political? overhaul all at once.? Can you help us find more about it?

RICHARD MERMIN
1111 Cordero Dr
Carson City NV 89703
775 883 8496 ph&fax

--- On Thu, 1/15/09, Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: "fiscal accrual"
To: rmermin at nvbell.net
Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 12:01 AM


If so, they're not talking about it.? Thanks, Ellen


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:54 PM, Richard Mermin <rmermin at nvbell.net> wrote:






I've forwarded our exchange to a top NZ? accountant, dunno if he? will reply.? Likely you have acquaintance (readers?) who might know more about "fiscal accrual?"? It may be a system already in place that can save the world economy? 


RICHARD MERMIN
1111 Cordero Dr
Carson City NV 89703
775 883 8496 ph&fax

--- On Wed, 1/14/09, Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: "fiscal accrual"
To: "Richard Mermin" <rmermin at nvbell.net>, rmermin at gmail.com
Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 9:10 PM 





Hm, I couldn't find anything specific on it either.? 


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 8:58 PM, Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com> wrote:

Excellent tip.? I'll research it.? Thanks! 





On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:43 PM, Richard Mermin <rmermin at nvbell.net> wrote:





is the name of an accounting protocol adopted by New Zealand and Australia.? In practice it means that money issued by government for infrastucture is balanced by showing the completed work as an asset.? If I understand? correctly, there should be no need for bonds, interest, borrowing,? taxes, for repayment.? Very much like your proposals I believe, with added kicker that it seems to be employed actually by responsible authorities.

I have not been able to find anything written on? the use of this device or possible deployment by US or state governments.? What do you make of it?? would appreciate your comments!

I've? been distributing your articles to practically every acquaintance whom I thought might be interested or at least intrigued.? Scarcely a nibble!? and some of these people have lost millions, and argue politics incessantly.

If you will reply, please copy to rmermin at gmail.com.? ATT has been blocking many emails to me,? "to protect from spam or phishing!" - they admit that, but won't correct it.

RICHARD MERMIN
1111 Cordero Dr
Carson City NV 89703
775 883 8496 ph&fax







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From cojock at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 20 04:33:19 2009
From: cojock at hotmail.com (chris cook)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 11:33:19 +0000
Subject: [GJM] More Data on Fiscal Accrual
In-Reply-To: <833196.90056.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <833196.90056.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W462748749B38EA0716B3ECCED00@phx.gbl>


Robert

Accountancy and I don't get on.

Richard Murphy of Tax Research is the man for a critique of fiscal accrual.

Best Regards

Chris Cook

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:46:26 +0000
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Subject: [GJM] More Data on Fiscal Accrual

 
Dear All,
 
         Here are two links about fiscal accrual. However, I have not read them properly. May be someone like Chris Cook could throw some light on this...notably in connection with the last post.
 
 
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jol/vol41_1/shaviro.php
 
 
 
http://ideas.repec.org/a/ifs/fistud/v23y2002i2p287-300.html
 
 
Robert Searle
 

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From maryrose333 at att.net  Tue Jan 20 20:35:50 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:35:50 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] 2009 to witness global
	agri-commodity shortage
Message-ID: <000001c97b79$5e5a3840$1b0ea8c0$@net>

As warnings continue to come about the probability of global food shortages
I am going to continue to advise everyone to get linked into a "Transition
Group" or create one in your area if there is not one already available. In 
spite of the hope engendered by Obama's swearing in ceremony today, his
message
was one of caution. The fact that shipping is down 96% worldwide, as
evidenced
by the report forwarded about 10 days ago, is not encouraging. In fact it is

downright scary. If the ships don't sail, then the shelves will soon become
empty.     

-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 6:12 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] 2009 to witness global agri-commodity
shortage


(To change your settings or unsubscribe please go to
http://lists.riseup.net/www/info/globalnetnews-summary)


2009 to witness global agri-commodity shortage
2008-12-17 15:55:00
http://www.commodityonline.com/news/2009-to-witness-global-agri-commodity-sh
ortage-13483-3-1.html

LONDON: Despite stronger production and falling prices for many food
staples in the second half of 2008, the risk of food supply shortages
remains acute in world markets. These supply shortage risks stem from
reduced producer incentives - and ability - to boost food production.

Reduced access to trade credit, rising costs, bio-fuel competition, and
infrastructure shortages are among key factors that continue to weigh on
trend growth in world agriculture supply. Inventory levels are also low
relative to their long run averages, highlighting the underlying tightness
in food markets at present.

Tightening and more expensive credit is limiting the ability of producers
to borrow to finance seasonal inputs - notably seed and fertilizer. The
costs of these inputs has increased dramatically over the past few years,
with the USDA estimating that US total inflation-adjusted farm costs have
increased 28.5% since 2002 (a 52% increase in nominal terms).

Although the cost of these inputs may moderate slightly in the wake of
slowing global growth - for example fertilizer costs on falling energy
prices - input prices tend to adjust more slowly with farmers typically
price takers in both input and output markets.

Faced with high costs and constrained finance, the FAO expects world cereal
producers could cut back production in the 2009/10 season with reduced crop
plantings. Yields may also be reduced over the coming year as fertilizer
use is scaled back.

Bio-fuels demand growth is expected to continue, absorbing some production
of cereal products and partially offsetting a cyclical slowing in
discretionary food demand. Bio-energy absorbed 100 million tonnes of global
cereals production in the 2007/08 season based on FAO data, equivalent to
13% of world cereal consumption for food.

And production of transport biofuels is set to rise almost 200% between
2005 and 2015 according to the International Energy Association (IEA).
National energy security and greenhouse gas emission reduction objectives
by governments worldwide are spearheading government support for further
development of the world biofuels industry.

Emerging markets also face shortages in infrastructure, training and
technologies to adequately boost food production. These supply shortages
were highlighted by the recent supply response to the 2007-2008 surge in
food prices, with cereal supply responding in developing markets by just
0.9% vs. an 11% rise in developed economies.

Given the fact that global food demand growth will be driven by population
and income growth in emerging market countries, and that over half of the
world's cereal production is sourced from these countries, increasing
this emerging market supply response in the future will be critical to
avoiding global food shortages in the medium term.

Recent export restrictions by grain producers in the Ukraine, India,
Pakistan and Argentina serve as a timely reminder of the underlying
tightness in the food supply situation in emerging markets. Recent stock
numbers paint a similar picture, with global inventories of corn wheat and
soybeans at their second lowest level since 1974.

Overall, food markets continue to operate in a high and rising cost
environment. Credit tightening has reduced the ability of farmers (and
countries) to borrow to cover these regular upfront operating costs at the
start of each season.

Furthermore trend biofuel demand growth has increased the relative price
incentive for non-food agriculture production. These impacts are amplified
in emerging markets by shortages in supporting infrastructure for food
production.

And historically low inventory buffers of food products leave the market
vulnerable to adverse supply shocks on a seasonal basis. The combination of
these factors suggest that agricultural food supply growth is likely to
remain constrained over the medium term despite the stronger near term
production outlook overall for the current agricultural season.

This research is prepared by ETFS Commodity Securities Limited



From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 20 23:42:32 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:12:32 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] 2009 to witness global
	agri-commodity shortage
In-Reply-To: <000001c97b79$5e5a3840$1b0ea8c0$@net>
Message-ID: <641991.39589.qm@web94904.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Dear Mary, It is time to call for making the cities ecologically sustainable with local farms as for survival we need food ,water ,shelter and clothing and all this can be locally procured with ecologically sustainable renewable resources. Let us call for making New York food secure locally.
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam

--- On Wed, 21/1/09, mary rose <maryrose333 at att.net> wrote:

From: mary rose <maryrose333 at att.net>
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] 2009 to witness global agri-commodity shortage
To: "'Discussion Forum for Global Justice'" <discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>, FixGov at yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009, 9:05 AM

As warnings continue to come about the probability of global food shortages
I am going to continue to advise everyone to get linked into a "Transition
Group" or create one in your area if there is not one already available.
In 
spite of the hope engendered by Obama's swearing in ceremony today, his
message
was one of caution. The fact that shipping is down 96% worldwide, as
evidenced
by the report forwarded about 10 days ago, is not encouraging. In fact it is

downright scary. If the ships don't sail, then the shelves will soon become
empty.     

-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 6:12 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] 2009 to witness global agri-commodity
shortage


(To change your settings or unsubscribe please go to
http://lists.riseup.net/www/info/globalnetnews-summary)


2009 to witness global agri-commodity shortage
2008-12-17 15:55:00
http://www.commodityonline.com/news/2009-to-witness-global-agri-commodity-sh
ortage-13483-3-1.html

LONDON: Despite stronger production and falling prices for many food
staples in the second half of 2008, the risk of food supply shortages
remains acute in world markets. These supply shortage risks stem from
reduced producer incentives - and ability - to boost food production.

Reduced access to trade credit, rising costs, bio-fuel competition, and
infrastructure shortages are among key factors that continue to weigh on
trend growth in world agriculture supply. Inventory levels are also low
relative to their long run averages, highlighting the underlying tightness
in food markets at present.

Tightening and more expensive credit is limiting the ability of producers
to borrow to finance seasonal inputs - notably seed and fertilizer. The
costs of these inputs has increased dramatically over the past few years,
with the USDA estimating that US total inflation-adjusted farm costs have
increased 28.5% since 2002 (a 52% increase in nominal terms).

Although the cost of these inputs may moderate slightly in the wake of
slowing global growth - for example fertilizer costs on falling energy
prices - input prices tend to adjust more slowly with farmers typically
price takers in both input and output markets.

Faced with high costs and constrained finance, the FAO expects world cereal
producers could cut back production in the 2009/10 season with reduced crop
plantings. Yields may also be reduced over the coming year as fertilizer
use is scaled back.

Bio-fuels demand growth is expected to continue, absorbing some production
of cereal products and partially offsetting a cyclical slowing in
discretionary food demand. Bio-energy absorbed 100 million tonnes of global
cereals production in the 2007/08 season based on FAO data, equivalent to
13% of world cereal consumption for food.

And production of transport biofuels is set to rise almost 200% between
2005 and 2015 according to the International Energy Association (IEA).
National energy security and greenhouse gas emission reduction objectives
by governments worldwide are spearheading government support for further
development of the world biofuels industry.

Emerging markets also face shortages in infrastructure, training and
technologies to adequately boost food production. These supply shortages
were highlighted by the recent supply response to the 2007-2008 surge in
food prices, with cereal supply responding in developing markets by just
0.9% vs. an 11% rise in developed economies.

Given the fact that global food demand growth will be driven by population
and income growth in emerging market countries, and that over half of the
world's cereal production is sourced from these countries, increasing
this emerging market supply response in the future will be critical to
avoiding global food shortages in the medium term.

Recent export restrictions by grain producers in the Ukraine, India,
Pakistan and Argentina serve as a timely reminder of the underlying
tightness in the food supply situation in emerging markets. Recent stock
numbers paint a similar picture, with global inventories of corn wheat and
soybeans at their second lowest level since 1974.

Overall, food markets continue to operate in a high and rising cost
environment. Credit tightening has reduced the ability of farmers (and
countries) to borrow to cover these regular upfront operating costs at the
start of each season.

Furthermore trend biofuel demand growth has increased the relative price
incentive for non-food agriculture production. These impacts are amplified
in emerging markets by shortages in supporting infrastructure for food
production.

And historically low inventory buffers of food products leave the market
vulnerable to adverse supply shocks on a seasonal basis. The combination of
these factors suggest that agricultural food supply growth is likely to
remain constrained over the medium term despite the stronger near term
production outlook overall for the current agricultural season.

This research is prepared by ETFS Commodity Securities Limited


_______________________________________________
Discussion mailing list
Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
http://globaljusticemovement.net/mailman/listinfo/discussion_globaljusticemovement.net



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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 21 03:28:48 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:28:48 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Precursor Engineering
In-Reply-To: <1102415117174.1102037584151.5789.10.1315200C@scheduler>
Message-ID: <410758.64389.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Tue, 20/1/09, The Orion Project <info at theorionproject.org> wrote:

From: The Orion Project <info at theorionproject.org>
Subject: Precursor Engineering
To: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Tuesday, 20 January, 2009, 8:25 PM


 








Precursor Engineering 
As noted in our October 14 Newsletter last year, retired Col. Thomas Bearden has described some of the physics mechanisms that will allow the extraction of energy from the vacuum. Recently he has written an easy-to-read briefing entitled ?Precursor Engineering and the Falsification of Modern Physics? which describes some history of energy physics and why energy science is at a stalemate today. It makes for very interesting reading and provides a clue as to why our energy sector is in such a mess and how we may get out of the dilemma. Below are a few of the far-reaching ideas and scientific references Bearden presents to get you intrigued. Please see the original article to understand more fully the implications of what he is telling us.
He suggests that nothing less than ?directly engineering physical reality at will.? is possible using the physicist Paul Dirac's concept of ?local vacuum tickling?.
How might this happen? Well, in the classical concept of the ?probabilities? vacuum, there are positive energy/positive probabilities of ever-higher energy interactions that ultimately result in the creation of every ?observable? in the universe. Basically, the observable universe is ?continually being created and ?happening' at an incredible rate? by these positive energy/positive probabilities.
Now, what if there was a way to produce some sort of negative energy/negative probabilities (negative E)? 
Dirac describes the removal of the negative energy from physics: ?One gets over the difficulty on the classical theory by arbitrarily excluding those solutions that have a negative E. One cannot do this in the quantum theory, since in general a perturbation will cause transitions from states with E positive to states with E negative." [Dirac, Proc. of the Royal Society A, Vol. 117, p. 610]. Here he suggests that tiny perturbations will produce negative energy in the affected region of the vacuum. In other words, tiny-energy sharp-gradient pulses will add ?negative probabilities? into a specific region so that highest ?positive probabilities? that create and hold together a physical structure start to ?unhappen?.
For example, if the correct sharp-gradient pulse were applied to water, the OH-bond positive-probability that holds water together would start to ?unhappen? and the water molecules would just come apart as their OH bonds start to vanish statistically.
As our aware readers of The Orion Project may quickly realize, this suggests a powerful tool in the breaking apart of water to produce a combustible mixture of H and O or hydroxy (Brown's) gas. This is what might have been done by Stan Meyer, Dr. John Kanzius and other researchers, who used various pulsed electromagnetic energies to break apart water. They probably did this without an understanding of this potential mechanism. This mechanism of negative energy ?unhappening?, as Bearden describes it, can also be used in the ?unhappening? of some diseases, another area of present research. 
Finally, it is interesting to note that the concepts of ?negative energy occur in the Schr?dinger equation and in Dirac's relativistic electron theory, and so there it is in the very foundations of physics.? Yet during the 1930's some physicists, afraid of the implications of this negative energy, removed as much of this knowledge as possible from classical physics. As noted by Hotson, "I think if one had to point to a single place where science went profoundly and permanently off the track, it would be 1934 and the emasculation of Dirac's equation." [D. L. Hotson, "Dirac's Equation and the Sea of Negative Energy," Part I, New Energy, Issue 43, 2002, pp. 1-20. Quote is from p. 1.]
Bearden calls the application of these processes ?precursor engineering, since one is directly engineering the ongoing creative bubble-set of an observable entity, by not only "happening" the statistical processes involved in it but also by selectively "unhappening" the entire set or selected parts of it.? 
The ultimate application of such technology will allow ?humankind to enter into the ?final physics? and allow direct engineering of physical reality itself?, hopefully for the overall betterment of mankind. At least as a start, we at The Orion Project and others can use some of these concepts to change our energy paradigm.










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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 21 03:41:32 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:41:32 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] 2009 to witness global
	agri-commodity shortage
In-Reply-To: <641991.39589.qm@web94904.mail.in2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <507106.68749.qm@web27402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?Yes, Muhammad but this requires huge transmissions of capital to inspire capitalists to "go to town" with this espcially in areas where there is little commercial viability( which could be supported with subsidies, and commercial grants created out of new money)
?Hence, the acute relevance of TFE.
?
?
R.Searle

--- On Wed, 21/1/09, Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] 2009 to witness global agri-commodity shortage
To: "Discussion Forum for Global Justice" <discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>
Date: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009, 6:42 AM







Dear Mary, It is time to call for making the cities ecologically sustainable with local farms as for survival we need food ,water ,shelter and clothing and all this can be locally procured with ecologically sustainable renewable resources. Let us call for making New York food secure locally.
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam

--- On Wed, 21/1/09, mary rose <maryrose333 at att.net> wrote:

From: mary rose <maryrose333 at att.net>
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] 2009 to witness global agri-commodity shortage
To: "'Discussion Forum for Global Justice'" <discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>, FixGov at yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009, 9:05 AM

As warnings continue to come about the probability of global food shortages
I am going to continue to advise everyone to get linked into a "Transition
Group" or create one in your area if there is not one already available.
In 
spite of the hope engendered by Obama's swearing in ceremony today, his
message
was one of caution. The fact that shipping is down 96% worldwide, as
evidenced
by the report forwarded about 10 days ago, is not encouraging. In fact it is

downright scary. If the ships don't sail, then the shelves will soon become
empty.     

-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 6:12 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] 2009 to witness global agri-commodity
shortage


(To change your settings or unsubscribe please go to
http://lists.riseup.net/www/info/globalnetnews-summary)


2009 to witness global agri-commodity shortage
2008-12-17 15:55:00
http://www.commodityonline.com/news/2009-to-witness-global-agri-commodity-sh
ortage-13483-3-1.html

LONDON: Despite stronger production and falling prices for many food
staples in the second half of 2008, the risk of food supply shortages
remains acute in world markets. These supply shortage risks stem from
reduced producer incentives - and ability - to boost food production.

Reduced access to trade credit, rising costs, bio-fuel competition, and
infrastructure shortages are among key factors that continue to weigh on
trend growth in world agriculture supply. Inventory levels are also low
relative to their long run averages, highlighting the underlying tightness
in food markets at present.

Tightening and more expensive credit is limiting the ability of producers
to borrow to finance seasonal inputs - notably seed and fertilizer. The
costs of these inputs has increased dramatically over the past few years,
with the USDA estimating that US total inflation-adjusted farm costs have
increased 28.5% since 2002 (a 52% increase in nominal terms).

Although the cost of these inputs may moderate slightly in the wake of
slowing global growth - for example fertilizer costs on falling energy
prices - input prices tend to adjust more slowly with farmers typically
price takers in both input and output markets.

Faced with high costs and constrained finance, the FAO expects world cereal
producers could cut back production in the 2009/10 season with reduced crop
plantings. Yields may also be reduced over the coming year as fertilizer
use is scaled back.

Bio-fuels demand growth is expected to continue, absorbing some production
of cereal products and partially offsetting a cyclical slowing in
discretionary food demand. Bio-energy absorbed 100 million tonnes of global
cereals production in the 2007/08 season based on FAO data, equivalent to
13% of world cereal consumption for food.

And production of transport biofuels is set to rise almost 200% between
2005 and 2015 according to the International Energy Association (IEA).
National energy security and greenhouse gas emission reduction objectives
by governments worldwide are spearheading government support for further
development of the world biofuels industry.

Emerging markets also face shortages in infrastructure, training and
technologies to adequately boost food production. These supply shortages
were highlighted by the recent supply response to the 2007-2008 surge in
food prices, with cereal supply responding in developing markets by just
0.9% vs. an 11% rise in developed economies.

Given the fact that global food demand growth will be driven by population
and income growth in emerging market countries, and that over half of the
world's cereal production is sourced from these countries, increasing
this emerging market supply response in the future will be critical to
avoiding global food shortages in the medium term.

Recent export restrictions by grain producers in the Ukraine, India,
Pakistan and Argentina serve as a timely reminder of the underlying
tightness in the food supply situation in emerging markets. Recent stock
numbers paint a similar picture, with global inventories of corn wheat and
soybeans at their second lowest level since 1974.

Overall, food markets continue to operate in a high and rising cost
environment. Credit tightening has reduced the ability of farmers (and
countries) to borrow to cover these regular upfront operating costs at the
start of each season.

Furthermore trend biofuel demand growth has increased the relative price
incentive for non-food agriculture production. These impacts are amplified
in emerging markets by shortages in supporting infrastructure for food
production.

And historically low inventory buffers of food products leave the market
vulnerable to adverse supply shocks on a seasonal basis. The combination of
these factors suggest that agricultural food supply growth is likely to
remain constrained over the medium term despite the stronger near term
production outlook overall for the current agricultural season.

This research is prepared by ETFS Commodity Securities Limited


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Discussion mailing list
Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
http://globaljusticemovement.net/mailman/listinfo/discussion_globaljusticemovement.net



Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now._______________________________________________
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 21 03:44:43 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:44:43 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Book on Monetary reform
In-Reply-To: <abc42a960901191718n50f6b4b9rd6b33c36ce8cd74e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <296856.3465.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Tue, 20/1/09, Jamie Walton <eurojamie at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Jamie Walton <eurojamie at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Book on Monetary reform
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Tuesday, 20 January, 2009, 1:18 AM



Thanks Martin,
?
I will have a look when time permits (busy times now).
?
I am surprised there is no mention of Douglas.? Very interesting.
?
Cheers,
?
Jamie Walton.


2009/1/15 Martin Hattersley <jmartinh at shaw.ca>

Just to call your attention to a recent book "National Economy - The Way to
Abundance" by Arian Forrest Nevin. ?I attach a review I have prepared. More
information at www.nationaleconomy.net.? Note that it is based on the
writings of Frederick Soddy, apparently without knowledge of the works of
Major Douglas.

Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
Phone & Fax (780) 483-5442
e-mail <jmartinh at shaw.ca>



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---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 21 03:50:18 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:50:18 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [monetaryReform] change, vision, hope
In-Reply-To: <f2a3ba50901200902j6eb2f5c8re7dbc4f45b07afdc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <809600.7507.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Tue, 20/1/09, Jim Whitescarver <jimscarver at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Jim Whitescarver <jimscarver at gmail.com>
Subject: [monetaryReform] change, vision, hope
To: "Cosmology Math and Phil" <cosmology-mathematics-and-philosophy at yahoogroups.com>, "quantumrelativity" <quantumrelativity at yahoogroups.com>, infophysics at yahoogroups.com, "quacksanonymous" <QuacksAnonymous at yahoogroups.com>, "theoryofeverything" <TheoryOfEverything at yahoogroups.com>, "monetary reform" <monetaryReform at yahoogroups.com>, FixGov at yahoogroups.com, "Discussion Forum for Global Justice" <discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>
Date: Tuesday, 20 January, 2009, 5:02 PM






It is a historic day of change with hope that the vision that the
people's interest, rather than the special interests, might be
immanent in America.

Scientism posits that change is random. In truth evolution is
inevitable but it is not random. In truth anything might happen but
not without cause.

It is now 140 minutes before change says the TV.

There is hope a campaign taken to the people empowered them to
overpower the powers that rule the world, the bankers, the military
industrial complex, secrete societies, Wall Street, the political
machine and the media owned and controlled by the money masters who
have been granted control of our economy. There is hope that the
people will take back the power of money from the money masters in the
spirit of Franklyn, Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, Eisenhower, Kennedy,
Gandhi, King and Milton Friedman.

We are led to expect change on day one and day one has arrived.

History proves that whoever goes against the money interests will be
discredited or assassinated, we have hope he will survive this day.

It is naive to think power can be taken from the special interests or
that the people have the wisdom to rule any better? Perhaps, but the
possibility for change is real, and can be should we exhibit the will
for real change.

Will he announce today the reclamation of control of the money supply
by the people to be invested responsibly to create value for futurity
rather than debt? There is hope the capital value of the planet earth
be employed for our common benefit rather than the benefit of an elite
few. Should he not declare war on the secrete societies today there
is still hope he will reveal his cards at the end of the game with our
power in hand.

Every eyes is watching. It is time for change.

We have hope that the meek will inherit the earth and there will be a
thousand years of peace and prosperity.

Let it be.

Jim
http://MonetaryRefo rmAct.org
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 21 09:27:55 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:27:55 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [monetaryReform] Re: change, vision, hope
In-Reply-To: <f2a3ba50901210804w6aec52b3j92fcfc1f19e25e96@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <364855.53097.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Wed, 21/1/09, Jim Whitescarver <jimscarver at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Jim Whitescarver <jimscarver at gmail.com>
Subject: [monetaryReform] Re: change, vision, hope
To: "Cosmology Math and Phil" <cosmology-mathematics-and-philosophy at yahoogroups.com>, "quantumrelativity" <quantumrelativity at yahoogroups.com>, infophysics at yahoogroups.com, "quacksanonymous" <QuacksAnonymous at yahoogroups.com>, "theoryofeverything" <TheoryOfEverything at yahoogroups.com>, "monetary reform" <monetaryReform at yahoogroups.com>, FixGov at yahoogroups.com, "Discussion Forum for Global Justice" <discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>
Date: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009, 4:04 PM






On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Lan Johnson <lanjohnson at wavecabl e.com> wrote:
>
> Jim,
>
> What makes you think Obama will take on the banking establishment and the money changers? I wish & hope he will but I don't think he has that intention at all.

If he is a true follower of Lincoln, he will fight against the control
of the people by the banks. Lincoln said, "The Government should
create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credits needed to
satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of
consumers. By the adoption of these principles, the taxpayers will be
saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease to be master and
become the servant of humanity." I am hopeful Obama's legacy will be
to fulfill Lincoln's dream.

"Our economy is badly weakened, a consequence of greed and
irresponsibility on the part of some, but also our collective failure
to make hard choices and prepare the nation for a new age."

I have hope that Obama is smart enough to understand that the hard
choice of reclaiming the money supply is a fundamental requirement for
the new age.

"We will not apologize for our way of life, nor will we waver in its
defense, and for those who seek to advance their aims by inducing
terror and slaughtering innocents, we say to you now that our spirit
is stronger and cannot be broken; you cannot outlast us, and we will
defeat you."

The key word here is that he explicitly declares war, not on those who
carry out terror, but on those who "induce" terror. An objective
analysis of history reveals the money interests have consistently
induced terror and war, directly or indirectly, throughout history, to
maintain control of money and its issuance. Terror and war is induced
by the active incitement and capital backing of people on both sides
of a conflict, resolving virtually nothing while tightening the grip
of the money masters on us.

Lincoln knew well that the civil war was an economic war, and I have
hope that Obama is not deluded into thinking the war on terror is any
different.

> Only a nasty old cut throat who has know regard for his own safety would try that, the likes of Andrew Jackson.

Franklyn, Jefferson, Madison, Garfiled, Lincoln, FDR, Kennedy, also
tried to beat the banking interests. It may have taken the likes of
Jackson to actually beat them, but he only won the battle, not the
war, as they ultimately destroyed him by inducing monetary failure.
Obama's war is different in character, both took their case to the
people, but Jackson took on the banks personally. It is not so much
Obama against the special interests, it is the people reclaiming
control. It is not doing one thing, but it is a commitment to stay in
the game for the long haul. It is my hope that it is a spirit that
goes beyond the man Obama and is a victory for the people such that it
cannot be trumped by the money masters no matter what treachery they
might induce.

Despite Jackson's adversial nature we ought not through out the baby
with the bath water.

"If congress has the right under the Constitution to issue paper
money, it was given them to use themselves, not to be delegated to
individuals or corporations. " -Andrew Jackson

> I wish Obama the best, he is a good man and the responsibility of the office will temper him, but he has some goofy screwballs around him. Only time will tell.

I am heartened by the tone of his inauguration speech which stood on
just universal principles rather than politics, I have hope he has
already laid the foundation for the tough choices needed to realize
Lincoln's dream, and made immanent a new age, where capital serves the
people that could only be strengthen in the event of his martyrdom
such that there would be no purpose for the money masters.

"Now, there are some who question the scale of our ambitions... What
the cynics fail to understand is that the ground has shifted beneath
them -- that the stale political arguments that have consumed us for
so long no longer apply."

"The success of our economy has always depended ... on our ability to
extend opportunity to every willing heart -- not out of charity, but
because it is the surest route to our common good."

"To those who cling to power through corruption and deceit and the
silencing of dissent, know that you are on the wrong side of history;
but that we will extend a hand if you are willing to unclench your
fist."

To me, this elicits the words of James Madison, "History records that
the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit,
and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments
by controlling money and its issuance." I am given hope that without
retribution or blame, Obama is inclusive of even the money masters, as
they are willing, in the realization a just monetary system. It is a
war of assimilation, where we hope, resistance is futile.

In the spirit of JFK's, call to our service to government, Obama gives
us the responsibility to control our own future.

"What is required of us now is a new era of responsibility -- a
recognition, on the part of every American, that we have duties to
ourselves, our nation, and the world, duties that we do not grudgingly
accept but rather seize gladly, firm in the knowledge that there is
nothing so satisfying to the spirit, so defining of our character,
than giving our all to a difficult task. This is the price and the
promise of citizenship. "

The vision and hope for humanity I lived in the days of Eisenhower and
Kennedy has been lost by recent generations. Even the vision and
promise of the American revolution has in many ways lost its luster in
recent times. This may indeed be the moment, as Obama proclaimed, "a
moment that will define a [new] generation." , and what has been lost
may be regained in even greater glory.

Obama concluded, "Let it be said by our childrens' children that when
we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not
turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and
Gods grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and
delivered it safely to future generations. "

In order to promote the potential of this future we must take the
challenge personally and fly in the face of the cynics.

"our time of standing pat, of protecting narrow interests and putting
off unpleasant decisions -- that time has surely passed. Starting
today, we must pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and begin again
the work of remaking America."

Personally, keeping the vision in mind, with unwavering hope, and
support for the change required to fulfill the vision, is the
challenge given to us. Should we meet this challenge, the dream will
be realized. Instead of government by rule of special interests, and
we will finally realize a government truly of the people, by the
people, for the people, the American revolution will have been won at
last.

The torch has not simply been passed from one president to another,
but by the words of Obama and the views of many who heard his words
yesterday, to a new generation of Americans and to all the peoples of
the world. It is a test of our convictions and the future has been
delivered into our hands. Business as usual has been given notice
this day, and there is hope we shall be delivered from the powers over
us should we have the courage to change such that the great vision of
the future of humanity is realized.

Indeed Obama may be tempered by the responsibilities of office, as
every president in my lifetime has failed to have the power in
practice, to deliver what they promised in principle. But should not
be tempered in our resolve that the future of humanity and freedom not
be compromised. Our mandate is the greatest power. The future is in
our hands.

Jim
http://MonetaryRefo rmAct.org

> Lan
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Whitescarver
> To: Cosmology Math and Phil ; quantumrelativity ; infophysics@ yahoogroups. com ; quacksanonymous ; theoryofeverything ; monetary reform ; FixGov at yahoogroups. com ; Discussion Forum for Global Justice
> Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 9:02 AM
> Subject: [quantumrelativity] change, vision, hope
>
> It is a historic day of change with hope that the vision that the
> people's interest, rather than the special interests, might be
> immanent in America.
>
> Scientism posits that change is random. In truth evolution is
> inevitable but it is not random. In truth anything might happen but
> not without cause.
>
> It is now 140 minutes before change says the TV.
>
> There is hope a campaign taken to the people empowered them to
> overpower the powers that rule the world, the bankers, the military
> industrial complex, secrete societies, Wall Street, the political
> machine and the media owned and controlled by the money masters who
> have been granted control of our economy. There is hope that the
> people will take back the power of money from the money masters in the
> spirit of Franklyn, Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, Eisenhower, Kennedy,
> Gandhi, King and Milton Friedman.
>
> We are led to expect change on day one and day one has arrived.
>
> History proves that whoever goes against the money interests will be
> discredited or assassinated, we have hope he will survive this day.
>
> It is naive to think power can be taken from the special interests or
> that the people have the wisdom to rule any better? Perhaps, but the
> possibility for change is real, and can be should we exhibit the will
> for real change.
>
> Will he announce today the reclamation of control of the money supply
> by the people to be invested responsibly to create value for futurity
> rather than debt? There is hope the capital value of the planet earth
> be employed for our common benefit rather than the benefit of an elite
> few. Should he not declare war on the secrete societies today there
> is still hope he will reveal his cards at the end of the game with our
> power in hand.
>
> Every eyes is watching. It is time for change.
>
> We have hope that the meek will inherit the earth and there will be a
> thousand years of peace and prosperity.
>
> Let it be.
>
> Jim
> http://MonetaryRefo rmAct.org
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 21 09:47:19 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:47:19 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] A Zeitgeist Wiki!!
Message-ID: <359731.45967.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear all,
?
????? This may be of interest
?
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
?
?
Robert Searle


      
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From maryrose333 at att.net  Wed Jan 21 14:05:27 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:05:27 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: Announcing New Companion Website and Video about the
	Global Economic Crisis
Message-ID: <000001c97c0b$fef874f0$fce95ed0$@net>

Dear Friends, there are some very fine websites now available to aid in our
personal transformation. 

Please enjoy this one from Lynne Twist whose perspective on money is
admirable.  While working 

with the Hunger Foundation, Ms. Twist had the audacity to turn down a
$50,000 donation from a CEO

of a company simply because she sensed his gift as  an attempt to wipe out
the guilt associated with the 

company's policies.  Later that day she accepted gratefully a $50.00
donation from a woman who did 

laundry for a living. Several years later after his retirement the same CEO
whose offer she had rejected

gave a donation many times that of the $50,000 she initially turned down.  

 

Reading Lynne's book "The Soul of Money" is a treat.  

 

While it may be impossible for us to change the monetary system in the
immediate future, we can give

Soul to what passes through our hands today by directing it in ethical ways.


 

With love and appreciation to everyone,

 

mary rose

FutureDawning.org 

dustysummerrose at gmail.com               

 

From: Lynne Twist [mailto:info at soulofmoney.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 5:43 PM
To: maryrose333 at att.net
Subject: Announcing New Companion Website and Video about the Global
Economic Crisis

 

 
<http://rs6.net/on.jsp?t=1102419060901.0.1011124331936.6247&ts=S0378&o=http:
//ui.constantcontact.com/images/p1x1.gif> 

	

 


 Transforming your relationship with money & life
<http://ih.constantcontact.com/fs010/1011124331936/img/5.gif> 


Dear Clients, Colleagues, and Friends, 

 
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102419060901&e=001Myksy-7E2-eQWGhDqFs9UH6aTy_2_Wk
1mRhfbHGpgAN9TRrC85eHQpE8looHNAnNnBBMXLaXO3Kz4QE1Ma22JtVuHBNc5YPiz5dAE4gLgkY
aT_EaVlXPwA==>
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102419060901&e=001Myksy-7E2-eQWGhDqFs9UH6aTy_2_Wk
1mRhfbHGpgAN9TRrC85eHQpE8looHNAnNnBBMXLaXO3Kz4QE1Ma22JtVuHBNc5YPiz5dAE4gLgkY
aT_EaVlXPwA==> video at soulofmoney.info
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102419060901&e=001Myksy-7E2-eQWGhDqFs9UH6aTy_2_Wk
1mRhfbHGpgAN9TRrC85eHQpE8looHNAnNnBBMXLaXO3Kz4QE1Ma22JtVuHBNc5YPiz5dAE4gLgkY
aT_EaVlXPwA==> 

I announced to you a few weeks ago that I would be launching a new companion
website and a new video about the Global Economic Crisis. I am very excited
to tell you that these are now ready to go.

The purpose of the video and website is to inspire large numbers of people
to join in creating the profound transformational change needed to have a
viable future on this planet.

Our goal is to have everyday people from all walks of life join us in our
commitment to a life and a world based in sufficiency - the state of being,
the state of knowing, and the state of relating to the world that there is
enough for all and that you are enough.

This video will hasten our efforts to successfully hospice the death of
unsustainable economic systems and structures in society, and to midwife a
new collective future that is just, compassionate, and sustainable for all
of life.

After watching the video, I invite you to pass the link on to your friends,
family, colleagues and spiritual or social communities and civic groups.

The video is a little over 3 minutes, with a powerful message. To access it,
please visit:

www.soulofmoney.info
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102419060901&e=001Myksy-7E2-ckLv7dv_AuP_wNHoMu6-b
CI5oib6BLWGBeE5DRnPxWEOshM1wEkIKuq7vMVYlkbd27erZYM2w_HnOZwLsu-Db_5lI7feAZE9U
YYgoYJAIt2Q==>  -- our new companion website.

The Global Economic Crisis points to this truly being the time for the
context of sufficiency to take its place in the consciousness of humankind
and to be used in the creation of new ways of being.

Thank you for being a carrier of this message. And thank you for being my
partner in the creation of a world based in sufficiency.

It is my deep honor and privilege to take this stand with you.

With love and respect,

 Lynne
<http://ih.constantcontact.com/fs010/1011124331936/img/11.gif?a=110241906090
1> 
Lynne Twist 

 



email:  <mailto:info at soulofmoney.org> info at soulofmoney.org 

phone: 415-386-5599 

web:
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102419060901&e=001Myksy-7E2-dwM3fLevPdfRKo-Y1tqHf
yYFeoeDL9qvOXkGNGqnuVzYdhoT_UC4Fb5vmezY48JrVB55mUc8WpPbIf-J_9wPwonlNrebquNkv
pv09OlbNlAw==> http://www.soulofmoney.org 

  <http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/spacer.gif> 

 
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102419060901&e=001Myksy-7E2-ckLv7dv_AuP_wNHoMu6-b
CI5oib6BLWGBeE5DRnPxWEOshM1wEkIKuq7vMVYlkbd27erZYM2w_HnOZwLsu-Db_5lI7feAZE9V
0N1Zk_mO2pA==> > Visit SoulofMoney.info 
 
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102419060901&e=001Myksy-7E2-dHV6frG66grH7-_WddwCN
9L_Xb15cfv3O4HLqCldFrDoLG3A3H0Iwny-w2xdzjsBIut-cfVADSy_n_IZHr-DWK83oIzUb24p3
Y3l9UIsqaDoA8BSznFZPB> > More about The Soul of Money 
 
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102419060901&e=001Myksy-7E2-eeW-2ZyoOexrUZr_z5UmN
rQsPqtwNqBUkJLgfBcKvmUIcRfLgYrVyBdBktuRBKodHuszBh5YG14g5nJhlJFlyThX9sPuP012N
tsRehUn5DHppYnJoByhd4> > Books & Audio by Lynne Twist 

 



Click here to forward this email to a friend or associate.
<http://ui.constantcontact.com/sa/fwtf.jsp?m=1011124331936&ea=maryrose333%40
att.net&a=1102419060901> 


 
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Soul of Money Institute | #3 5th Avenue | San Francisco | CA | 94118 

 

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From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 22 00:05:55 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 12:35:55 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] Atheistic Zeitgeist not good for ecological safety and
	global social cohesion
In-Reply-To: <359731.45967.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <383123.22758.qm@web94910.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Dear Robert , I have seen the introductory note of the website. There is appreciation of the inter-relatedness of life on Earth without an understanding on the stewardship/ khilafa on human being on Earth. Earth?and all is created for us and we are created for?worship of the?Creator. Rebelling against?this and not expressing gratitude for the Creator for giving us control on all the resources and?creation is the worst form of ignorance.?I would like to note that Islamic/ monotheistic narration on the creation, humanity and its role on Earth, its destiny?needs to be seen?by all , who do not even appreciate this major advantage of?having the best cognitive and intellectual capacity than the rest of the creations. I am sure. Project Venus?would have nothing?to say much about?the ecologically sustainable practices,consumption and production patterns.They also understand 'sceince' as an entity that?has an existence.?The word science?is for?the
 accumulated knowledge that we have got through our capacities to learn. Denial of the Creator of the universes is suggested without realising that spirit that?they talk about?and the 'science' that they about?is also an abstract realisation. 
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam?

--- On Wed, 21/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [GJM] A Zeitgeist Wiki!!
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009, 10:17 PM







?
Dear all,
?
????? This may be of interest
?
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
?
?
Robert Searle
_______________________________________________
Discussion mailing list
Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
http://globaljusticemovement.net/mailman/listinfo/discussion_globaljusticemovement.net



      Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan 22 05:53:00 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 12:53:00 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Friends of Associative Economics Bulletin
In-Reply-To: <b59463aed89e1fce188e999f148ff604@www.cfae.biz>
Message-ID: <400661.2401.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Thu, 22/1/09, FAE at yahoo.com <FAE at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: FAE at yahoo.com <FAE at yahoo.com>
Subject: 
To: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Thursday, 22 January, 2009, 12:43 PM
















January 2009 
The new look bulletin offers a means to befriend associative economics by finding out what is going on, contributing to research, undertaking a diploma, attending an event, subscribing to the journal, signing up for the guarantee mark.

The format remains concise; links to websites are given where more information is available. In-depth analysis is provided in Associate!, our journal (now in its 28th year of existence), which has been renamed to reflect the need for one's will to become active. Both hard-copy and electronic versions can be subscribed to online:



Subscribe Here

1)?? EVENTS 2009

Making Credit Less Crunchy: 12 Feb & 19 Mar / Rudolf Steiner House, London
The Colours of Money: 20-22 February / Viroqua, USA
Inner and Outer Aspects of Associative Economics: 27 Feb - 1 Mar / Auckland, New Zealand. 13-15 March / Melbourne, Australia
The Colours of Money: 3-5 April / Stroud, England
2)? Associate! SEA CHANGE - JAN 09

?? Lead: Egonomy is not Economy: Towards sustainable economics. Marc Desaules
?? A Sign of Our Time: Keynes and Hicks; Steiner and Who? Editors
?? Feature: Overcoming Money Monopoly: The Quest for Nonpolitical Money. E C Riegel
?? Archive: Money and the State. Rudolf Steiner
?? 21 Policies: Review 
?? Glossary: Virtue
?? Friends Page: Bookkeeping and LETS
?? AE Hero: Six Projects - Deep Accounting / Youth Financial Literacy / The Role of the Corporation and the Future of Not-for-profits / Prospects for a World Currency / Financing Education / The Economics of Farming
?? Accounting Corner: It's Not Just About Money. Stephen Torr

The Friends of Associative Economics Bulletin provides an overview of what is going on around the world?in the associative economics movement. The bulletin is viewable as a webpage here.

?
Click here to unsubscribe or edit your subscription

A service provided by the Centre for Associative Economics 
Copyright 2009 Centre for Associative Economics. All rights reserved. 




      
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From jimscarver at gmail.com  Thu Jan 15 10:38:34 2009
From: jimscarver at gmail.com (Jim Whitescarver)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:38:34 -0500
Subject: [GJM] [quantumrelativity] Immanent Capitalism Re: Derrida -
	"I'll have to wonder all alone"
In-Reply-To: <001101c97628$289f2ea0$0201a8c0@linda>
References: <f2a3ba50901132221oe82240ascceb97764227de0d@mail.gmail.com>
	<001101c97628$289f2ea0$0201a8c0@linda>
Message-ID: <f2a3ba50901150938l675ab0deuf176746fe7280659@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:12 AM, James Allen <abey2 at comcast.net> wrote:
> Jim:
>
>      Have you been reading Jacque Derrida, the French phenomenologist? I
> found your short letter to be deeply meaningful and I for one have a ton of
> shit I would like to unlearn.

Indeed, I have been reacquainted with a kindred manner of thought, as
one led to universally deconstructing belief systems in phenomenology,
epistemology, ethics, culture, politics, economics and particularly in
myself

"Derrida explains that "the objectivity of a structure ... is tied to
the concrete genesis which must make it possible" and that "Husserl
refuses, and will always refuse, to accept the intelligibility and
normativity of this universal structure as manna fallen from a
"heavenly place" ... or as an eternal truth created by an infinite
reason". This means that even the most sophisticated and convincing
system of thought is vulnerable to questions of how this system of
thought was constructed. Deconstruction therefore ambitiously
challenges ways of thinking that are often considered most objective
by asking how they came to be attributed the status of objectivity."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deconstruction

For me this encapsulates the distinction between rhetoric and
objectivity which is infinitely deconstructed prior to its genesis.
The objective is realized by originary complexity rather than original
purity.  There are no first principles really.  I am generally
impatient with philosophical discourse and its illusory guise of
disambiguation. Objectivity involves ambiguization.  Therefore only
ambiguous logic, such as quantum logic, can be holisticlly objective.

That being said, the philosophical imperative becomes formalizing the
methodology of objectivity in the realm of the metalogical, a feat
which apparently confounded Derrida, his predicessors and his
followers, and instead led largely to the bastardization of
deconstructionism in many illegitimate forms.  As Marx wrote in
"Theses for Feuerbach" (1845), - "The philosophers have only
interpreted the world differently; the point is, to change it".

Such has become my passion and raison. I fancy myself as a more of a
constructionist, than deconstructionist, as construction is the end
enabled by deconstruction, and is to become, in my view, the immanent
philosophical imperative.

The popularity and influence of Derrida is one hopeful sign, and one
front, in the deconstruction of philosophy necessary to its continuing
reconstruction on an objective bases.  That he stated, "there are few
philosophers", is somewhat discouraging but there are many threads
such as the constructivist, intuitionist, general semantics and even
Scientology, which if they could be deconstructed and assimilated into
the new constructionist objectivism.  In many ways human philosophical
legacy does more to obscure objectivity that enable it.  There are
those who are inclined to be the keepers of the scrolls and tie the
immanent transcendence of philosophy to its rich legacy.  But few are
inclined to brave its deep waters and it is both necessary and
reasonable that change includes those who frolic in its shallows.
Deconstruction, after all is going back to basics and denial of
traditional, common, and simple truth.  It is primarily a habit of
disbelief in the obvious in the search for greater understanding and
the writing of the new scrolls of objective philosophy.

It is a disruptive manner of thought that challenges all the ideals we
hold dear and serve to enable our decisive action in our world.  It
strips us of all certainty.  The very nature of truth is changed from
absolute to tenuous.  We can no longer make any general statement
without being wrong.  The very notion of being becomes uncontainable.
The singular loses its independent substance.

> This discussion has definitely taken a turn
> towards rational reflection and hopefully towards a rational rethinking of
> money and our relationship to it.

To be clear, rational reflection in the common manner is does not
enforce objectivity.  It does not work.  Objective reflection requires
that each notion is decomposed into into the multiplicity of its
genesis and composed into a synthesis that is incrementally and
inconclusive.  It is a manner of thinking quite distinct from
rationalization which exhibits actual realization distinct from
imagination.  It is a process of continuous improvement rather than
completion where the validity of induction is always in doubt.  It is
uncommon intelligence in the realm of our collective stupidity.

Construction of such an epistemology of phenomenology provides a
foundation of actual intelligence.  Our collective application of such
a methodology realizes our collective intelligence incrementally.

> Obviously ignoring the constant screams of
> advertisers and saving money is bringing the system to its knees.

To its end and new beginning let us pray.

Wall street loses made saving dominant over spending, while starving
the system of active capital and active markets. Additional debt can
only prolong the agony.

At the same time we have great opportunities for the industry of
humanity in becoming responsible stewards of the earth and beyond and
cooperatively maximizing the opportunity of every individual to thrive
and contribute to the richness of humanity and the quality of life.

Changing how people think could take a thousand years.  The global
information revolution however actualizes the possibility that we may
find a consensus for collective belief and action in a fraction of the
time required historically.  The ideals of the American revolution,
for example, might finally be realized.

The great danger is that our collective action is without objectivity
and we allow unexpected consequences to subvert our good intentions.
A systematic, holistic, natural, evolutionary progression, hedging all
bets, capitalizing on minimalistic systematic interference,
deconstructing what is, while constructing what can be, is possible.
Discipline rather than great ideas is the primary determinant of
success.

It will take an infinity of millennia for us to solve all our problems
and realize our full potential.  But we ought to be able to develop a
consensus that monetary reform is essential and collaborate on
actualizing a minimal action to realize that one thing independently.

I suggest that collectively providing a stable interest free money
supply and capital for real value generation are our most immediate
needs, as well as a long term needs, in the  enablement of our ability
to fulfill our potential.

We can actualize these now by proactively using alternative
capitalization and alternative currencies.  We can promote collective
monetary reform and capitalization of real value generation.

Do we have a consensus on this?  If so, why is it not being realized
in a timely manner, and how can we fix that?  If not, why not?  What
is the disagreement and what are the practically arbitratible
synthesises?  How can the neoreconstructionists avoid rationalization
and incrementally develop collective intelligence in collective
action.  How do we work smarter rather than harder in the realization
of our dream?  How do we actualize our assimilation while avoiding
enslavement to the powerful and the tyranny of the majority.

Jim
http://MonetaryReformAct.org
http://InformationPhysics.com
> Clarence
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Whitescarver
> To: cosmology-mathematics-and-philosophy at googlegroups.com
> Cc: cosmology-mathematics-and-philosophy at yahoogroups.com ;
> infophysics at yahoogroups.com ; monetary reform ; Discussion Forum for Global
> Justice ; FixGov at yahoogroups.com ; quantumrelativity at yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 1:21 AM
> Subject: [quantumrelativity] Immanent Capitalism Re: Derrida - "I'll have to
> wonder all alone"
>
> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 11:46 AM, maria odete madeira
> <mariaodete.sm at gmail.com> wrote:
>> "Like Nietzsche and Artaud, like Blanchot and other shared admirations,
>> Deleuze never lost sight of this alliance between
>> necessity and the aleatory,
>
> Such serendipity or providence is expression of the Golden Theorem,
> that what has a finite probability happens in finite time.
>
>> between chaos and the untimely.
>
> Murphy's Law, what can do wrong, will go wrong.
>
> Together leading ultimately, to me, to pluralism and the law of
> exceptions, that there is an exception to every law except this law.
> And that the categorical imperative is not decided until the end of
> time.
>
>> ... What interests us the most is the analysis
>> of capitalism as an immanent system
>
> Immanent since capital trumps all power on earth but that of nature.
> Yet there can be no plane of immanence without possible transcendence.
> There is no persistently extant singularity, as Deleuze himself
> proclaimed before his death, there is no ultimate immanence except
> immanence itself.
>
>> that constantly pushes back its proper limits,
>
> Insidious in its proliferation, a thriving ecology of capital has been
> pervasive, even in communist countries. It is seemingly inescapable.
> Capital and power are virtually the same thing in practice. It
> controls our commerce, industry, media and governments. It rewrites
> history and programs our beliefs.
>
>> and that always finds them again on a larger scale, because the
>> limit is Capital itself.""
>
> It always expands the money supply to a larger scale by what means?
> In the present era the banking system creates capital out of thin air
> in the interest of the owners of the world banks. History shows war
> has been their primary mechanism to capitalize both sides in order to
> push the proper limits of monetary expansion and expand the money
> supply.
>
> Suppose the people took control of the money supply, and took the role
> of the money interests for the good of humanity. Suppose they
> employed spending to encourage activity and taxing to discourage
> activity to perturb the chaordic economic system such that it tended
> toward sustainable growth, freedom and an improved quality of life.
> Suppose the people never pushed the proper limits of capital and
> allowed capital to grow limited only by its service to humanity.
> Could the bullies still dominate?
> http://sites.google.com/a/monetaryreformact.org/monetary-reform-act/sustainability
>
> The bully, in theory, does not win the evolutionary game. Destruction
> ultimately destroys itself. The people have always had the power but
> are trained to serve the money interests and to believe they are doing
> right doing so.
> http://WikiWorld.com/EvolutionaryGameTheory
>
> Capitalism is now controlled pluralisticly by the money masters and
> their stooges. If we instead engineer capital that belongs to the
> people and control the supply by responsible spending and taxing, how
> could any force have more power than the people acting in their common
> interest? If we can engineer a bridge that will not fall down we can
> surely engineer an economy that won't fall down. If it is possible,
> the bullies would lose and the people would win.
>
> Otherwise, I fear, Derrida's foreboding is imminent, and the money
> masters will always arise on a larger scale enslaving the rest of us
> as lambs to the slaughter despite our feeble attempts at regulation
> without the people taking control of the money supply.
>
>> http://www.usc.edu/dept/comp-lit/tympanum/1/derrida1.html
>
> To take effective control we need to unlearn all the wrong things we
> have been led to believe we need to make new habits of pluralism in
> our thinking and unity in our collective action engineered using
> objective criteria.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralism
> http://InformationPhysics.com
>
> Jim
> http://MonetaryReformAct.org


From jimscarver at gmail.com  Thu Jan 15 12:49:56 2009
From: jimscarver at gmail.com (Jim Whitescarver)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:49:56 -0500
Subject: [GJM] [quantumrelativity] Re: Exxon favors carbon tax over cap
	and trade for CO2 curbs
In-Reply-To: <gknv7s+8dh1@eGroups.com>
References: <gkl4dg+o89i@eGroups.com> <gknv7s+8dh1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <f2a3ba50901151149h5f8a379cw9dafb63e0320ff41@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:28 PM, John Van Winkle
<jack_vanwinkle at yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> Tax is what you pay.  Only if you make money.  A lot if you are rich (g)
> too much if you are poor.

Jefferson said his greatest accomplishment as president was that the
common man was not burdened by taxes.  Jefferson knew tax is most
certainly not as certain as death as the money interests would like us
to believe.  We have been trained to think we all must pay taxes but
enterprise that is taxed is not free and is dubiously constitutional
in the US.

Tax on income and sales represses the economy by dampening the
velocity of money.  It suppresses the economy as a whole with the
exception of the dubious enterprise of those rich enough to have the
influence to not pay any tax at all  If tax were truly inevitable
these rich would also be paying tax.  Proper taxation represses only
that which it is in the benefit of the people to repress, rather than
what is in the interest of the money masters to tax.

With the abandonment of paying interest on our own money supply to the
privately held world banks, the continued necessity to increase our
money supply when real value is increased in society, and such extra
capital is introduced collectively by responsible spending and loaning
it into existence, rather than by loans from the money interests
backed only by the borrower, the notion that it is necessary to tax to
support the cost of government becomes passe.   The windfall may be
applied to the cost of government in service to the people.  The
primary purpose of tax becomes to repress exponential growth of human
activities that will destroy value in our society if left unchecked.
That the people reap the rewards to spend responsibly and cover costs
is a bonus that stimulates value creation and the unbridled
opportunity for our individuals to thrive in so far as they does not
unfairly exploit the rest of us.

> Better to call it a tax credit.  A tax credit does not cost the
> government a cent if the taxpayer is not making money. I'm getting ahead
> of myself, right.  The tax should be renamed as the Pollution Penalty
> Tax.  This would go over better than an environmental tax.

A euphemism for a just tax would avoid the negative connotation, but
just perpetuate an archaic and counter productive notion of taxation.

We each own our share of the earths resources.  It is only fair that
we are collectively compensated by those who use an excess.  It is
just that we are rewarded if we use less than our proper share such
that we foster zero impact living.

> If loop holes were closed it just might work with little loss of gov
> revenue.

Loopholes are never closed.  The effect must be taxed, not the causes
when possible such that it is effective and inescapable.

> Might have to bring in a VAT, a value added tax on all goods and
> services like we implemented in Canada to replace the manufacturers tax.
> Don't know if y'all have that there.

We do not want VAT generally, as added value is a generally a good
thing.  If we want good things we ought not tax them.  We know for
sure that discouraging a good thing in a chaordic system stifles it.
We want to subsidize good things, not tax them.  A VAT might address
certain issues pragmatically where the value added is questionable
with respect to the social cost.  But it should be as simple a control
mechanism as is possible while being just and effective.  We have the
responsibility to perturb the system toward sustainable growth of real
value to humanity.

Jim
>
> JohnV
> --- In quantumrelativity at yahoogroups.com, "Cheryl" <deluc2332 at ...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hmmm, interesting exercise...
>>
>> We could call it a peace offering to Gaia. Not likely to create much
>> peace, however. Many don't even know who Gaia is, let alone willing to
>> pay homage to Her (funny that)
>>
>> We could call it Common Sense. But spell it Common Cents. But that
>> might remind people of Thomas Paine, stir up some Revolutions.
>>
>> Taxation with Sensationalist. No, no, that won't do.
>>
>> We could call it, 'If you want a Hummer, shut up and put your money
>> where you want is.' Has a ring, but not too many will like it, I'm
>> supposing.
>>
>> Another way for the fat cats to skim off the top without us knowing.
>> No, no, too honest. Honesty never sells.
>>
>> Hmm, I guess a tax (just like a rose) by any other name, is still
>> foul, (unlike a rose, unless it's grown in carbon di-oxide soaked soil
>> in the sewered riverbanks of the Hummer manufactures).
>>
>> ; )
>>
>> C
>>
>> --- In quantumrelativity at yahoogroups.com, "John Van Winkle"
>> jack_vanwinkle@ wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > But. We cannot call it a tax. We need the spin doctors and marketing
>> > geniuses to come up with another name other than a tax.
>> >
>> > How are the EUs doing. I think they have cap and trade. If so, is it
>> > successful?
>> >
>> > JohnV
>> >
Jim wrote:
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/exxon-favors-carbon-tax-over/story.aspx
CEO Rex Tillerson said Thursday...

"A carbon tax strikes us as a more direct, transparent and effective
approach," said Tillerson. "It is easier to apply globally, avoids the
establishment of new markets for trading emissions and new regulators
to monitor them, can be implemented through the existing tax
infrastructure and made revenue neutral to mitigate the impact on the
economy."

triangletrader 4 days ago +2 Votes (2 Up / 0 Dn)
"That's right. No brokerage house crooks trading carbon. Government
pockets all the money and gives it back to the citizen ,thus making it
revenue neutral.
The carbon tax is an effective way to go."

It makes sense.  Rex Tillerson is right. Why create another humongous
bureaucracy to be abused at tax payer expense.  Why not learn from the
money masters and control industry and commerce by the pocketbook for
the benefit of the people, rather than the benefit of Wall Street.
The money masters own Wall Street and always win because they have
unlimited money.  The rest of us are suckers.  Why would we create yet
another market they can dominate at our expense?  Well, because they
own all the media and teach us what we ought to think is right in
order that they may line their own pockets.  We know well a few of
their trolls on the internet, like those who debase the fractional
reserve banking page weekly so that we are fooled into believing they
actually have deposits backing the loans they make.  Ha!  But it
works. They apparently own all but two of the US congress persons.

Instead we need a sustainable transparent, powerful, self funding
mechanism to regulate all the exponential impacts of society with a
stock mechanism, we do not need a new one for each separate commodity
making things more complex then they already are.  We need to simplify
if we hope to understand it and stop making stupid regulations that
most always abused in some manner we did not anticipate.
See http://sites.google.com/a/monetaryreformact.org/monetary-reform-act/sustainability

Only a man with the financial power of Rex Tillerson can go against
the world powers since they cannot use their standard ploy of insuring
he gets no money.  ExxonMobile it too big for even them to control
financially.  I believe strongly we ought support him in this actively
or he will be discredited by them.

"Money power denounces, as public enemies, all who question its
methods or throw light upon its crimes." - Wm. Jennings Bryan

I am just waiting for the announcement that Rex Tillerson is under
invertigation, ug.

If WE do not act, he will lose the fight on behalf of our interests.
Fight the good fight!

Jim
http://MonetaryReformAct.org

"A power has risen up in the government greater than the people
themselves, consisting of many and various powerful interest, combined
in one mass; and held together by the cohesive power of the vast
surplus in banks." - John C. Calhoun

"The real truth of the matter is,as you and I know, that a financial
element in the large centers has owned the government ever since the
days of Andrew Jackson..." -Franklin D. Roosevelt

"History records that the money changers have used every form of
abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their
control over governments by controlling money and its issuance." -James Madison

"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who makes
its Laws." ANSELM MEYER ROTHSCHILD (owner of major world banks)

"I sincerely believe ... that banking establishments are more
dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending
money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but
swindling futurity on a large scale."- Thomas Jefferson

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute
master of all industry and commerce." - James A. Garfield

"Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the
power to create money and control credit, and with a flick of a pen
they will create enough to buy it back." - Sir Josiah Stamp, former
President,  Bank of England

http://MonetaryReformAct.org


From jimscarver at gmail.com  Thu Jan 15 15:32:24 2009
From: jimscarver at gmail.com (Jim Whitescarver)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:32:24 -0500
Subject: [GJM] [quantumrelativity] Re: Derrida - "I'll have to wonder
	all alone"
In-Reply-To: <001301c97744$fcb28850$0201a8c0@linda>
References: <f2a3ba50901132221oe82240ascceb97764227de0d@mail.gmail.com>
	<001101c97628$289f2ea0$0201a8c0@linda>
	<f2a3ba50901150938l675ab0deuf176746fe7280659@mail.gmail.com>
	<001301c97744$fcb28850$0201a8c0@linda>
Message-ID: <f2a3ba50901151432q11b7e95fy746c7865ac0e8c48@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:10 PM, James Allen <abey2 at comcast.net> wrote:
> Jim wrote?."It will take an infinity of millennia for us to solve all our
> problems
> and realize our full potential. But we ought to be able to develop a
> consensus that monetary reform is essential and collaborate on
> actualizing a minimal action to realize that one thing independently."
>
> Just to reduce everything you said below into a graph; it seems you demand
> thought lead us on an upwardly curving path from zero till asymptotically
> approaching infinity in ONE direction.

We may find consensus in many directions and our healthy evolution
requires maximal decentralization and maximal diversity.  We can act
collectively on any level whenever a consensus at that level is
reached.  Indeed our collective intelligence is fractal in nature.
The sequence of our collective action is simply the order in which we
find consensus.

> ... I do
> applaud you for delving into philosophy and putting it in its place. I felt
> you were right on track there. I have never heard anybody put that kind of
> perspective on modern philosophical thought and I really appreciated your
> sharing that with us.

I have been trying to express this well for many years, hopefully I
have not been so heretical that I have alienated the philosophical
elite this time around.  I too, after all, am a philosopher.

> I read your letter slowly and by the end I smelled the acrid flavor of
> artificial intelligence. I don't feel real good about building machines that
> become much smarter than US. (Just watched I Robot again last night) This
> would be a real Brave New World and if it is the future I am glad that I
> will be long gone from here by then.

WE are not very smart at present.  WE are most certainly in danger if
we build machine just as smart as we are. It is anticipated that by
2020 a $1000 computer will have the processing power of the human
brain, and by 2050 a $1000 computer will have the power of the human
race by Mores Law.  Your concern is quite justified, making the
imperative for objective philosophy that much more critical.    When
intelligence emerges on the network much greater than our own, which
is inevitable, our intellectual dominance will end and we will assume
our rightful place as magnificent animals of the planet earth.  Our
world may be enriched by intelligent agents that act on our behalf
according to our wishes so long as our freedom is respected and
protected.

> In fact this kind of cold clicking of one thing after another may best
> exemplify what Bin Laden has been screaming jihad over. If I were a member
> of a race obviously left behind by history I would also want to bring the
> whole world back into the stone ages with me.

But there is no turning back. It is a romantic notion, perhaps, but it
is impossible for society to devolve without near extinction.

"A reactionary is a somnambulist [sleepwalker] walking backwards." -
Franklin D. Roosevelt

"By 'radical,' I understand one who goes too far; by 'conservative,'
one who does not go far enough; by 'reactionary,' one who won't go at
all.' - Woodrow Wilson

> Just for clarity I am not a jihadist nor do I have any sympathy for Bin
> Laden.

Nor do I.  but we have reason to expect be a cause of the developing
war against Islam is an economic one, as war has always included
economic motivation, and has been promoted by the money masters who
fund both sides.

"People are in the process of fabricating for us a literary space, as
well as judicial, economic, and political spaces, which are completely
reactionary, prefabricated, and overwhelming/crushing." - Gilles
Deleuze

Islamic capitalism is Biblical capitalism which ought to be supported
by Christians and Jews.  As it forbids interest it forbids a money
supply created out of debt.  It offers a clear and just solution to
scourge of western capitalism ruled by the money masters for their own
business and the present economic crises.  I see a rich set of
solutions that should include Islamic financing.

But why would the money masters ever allow that to happen given the
power to prevent it and it is said "absolute power corrupts
absolutely"?.  There is no trickle up to the wealthy in Islamic
financing.  As long as we grant them the power to control our money
supply they have the power to control us and they will succeed in
enabling world war three for the triple whammy purpose of wiping out
Islamic capitalism and, well, nothing creates as much debt to be paid
by posterity as war, for the benefit of the money masters, and it can
alleviate the present economic crises allowing the money masters to
maintain control and cash in gigantically.

This would seem to be an absurd conspiracy theory if it were not for
the fact it has been repeated trough history.
http://sites.google.com/a/monetaryreformact.org/monetary-reform-act/MonetaryReformAct/the-money-masters

While Bin Laden may bask in the illusion that he is fighting against
the great Satan, Money, we have good reason to expect Al Queda may be
a child of the money interests to create the Perl Harbor of world war
three.  We have reason to expect Bin Laden is a little more than a
stooge of the money masters and is protected by them.

"People are in the process of fabricating for us a literary space, as
well as judicial, economic, and political spaces, which are completely
reactionary, prefabricated, and overwhelming/crushing." - Gilles
Deleuze

Islam is bound to fight against whoever represses them and peace will
not come unless the imperialistic repression of Islam ends. No one
wants to send their children to war and would not be inclined to do so
without just cause.  We have escalated the hostility with questionable
justification and motivation and our masses are being trained to hate
Islam in a very unchristian manner, with disrespect a of their
sovereignty and freedom we ourselves would certainly not tolerate..

http://www.downundernewslinks.com/2008/09/09/what-islam-is-not/

All cultures have elitists and one could make such a movie against any
culture.  Yet we are moved by the propaganda and it is succeeding in
turning us into blood thirsty killers of the innocent by the promotion
of a self fulfilling false prophecy incited by the money masters.  For
much of Islam, jahad has become a peaceful revolution for themselves
and others to obey the God of god's according to their heart.  We
ought support them in their mission to be free of the money masters
and join with them in their peaceful jahad.

I would say we have far more cause to fear the money masters than
intelligent machines unless the money masters are still in power on
the dawn of the rising of the machine and the machines are still
stupid enough to be duped by the money masters to be used against the
people for their benefit.

Jim
> Clarence
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Whitescarver
> To: quantumrelativity at yahoogroups.com ; ai-philosophy at yahoogroups.com ;
> infophysics at yahoogroups.com ; Cosmology Math and Phil ; Cosmology Math and
> Phil ; monetary reform ; Discussion Forum for Global Justice ;
> FixGov at yahoogroups.com ; theoryofeverything
> Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 12:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [quantumrelativity] Immanent Capitalism Re: Derrida - "I'll
> have to wonder all alone"
>
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:12 AM, James Allen <abey2 at comcast.net> wrote:
>> Jim:
>>
>> Have you been reading Jacque Derrida, the French phenomenologist? I
>> found your short letter to be deeply meaningful and I for one have a ton
>> of
>> shit I would like to unlearn.
>
> Indeed, I have been reacquainted with a kindred manner of thought, as
> one led to universally deconstructing belief systems in phenomenology,
> epistemology, ethics, culture, politics, economics and particularly in
> myself
>
> "Derrida explains that "the objectivity of a structure ... is tied to
> the concrete genesis which must make it possible" and that "Husserl
> refuses, and will always refuse, to accept the intelligibility and
> normativity of this universal structure as manna fallen from a
> "heavenly place" ... or as an eternal truth created by an infinite
> reason". This means that even the most sophisticated and convincing
> system of thought is vulnerable to questions of how this system of
> thought was constructed. Deconstruction therefore ambitiously
> challenges ways of thinking that are often considered most objective
> by asking how they came to be attributed the status of objectivity."
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deconstruction
>
> For me this encapsulates the distinction between rhetoric and
> objectivity which is infinitely deconstructed prior to its genesis.
> The objective is realized by originary complexity rather than original
> purity. There are no first principles really. I am generally
> impatient with philosophical discourse and its illusory guise of
> disambiguation. Objectivity involves ambiguization. Therefore only
> ambiguous logic, such as quantum logic, can be holisticlly objective.
>
> That being said, the philosophical imperative becomes formalizing the
> methodology of objectivity in the realm of the metalogical, a feat
> which apparently confounded Derrida, his predicessors and his
> followers, and instead led largely to the bastardization of
> deconstructionism in many illegitimate forms. As Marx wrote in
> "Theses for Feuerbach" (1845), - "The philosophers have only
> interpreted the world differently; the point is, to change it".
>
> Such has become my passion and raison. I fancy myself as a more of a
> constructionist, than deconstructionist, as construction is the end
> enabled by deconstruction, and is to become, in my view, the immanent
> philosophical imperative.
>
> The popularity and influence of Derrida is one hopeful sign, and one
> front, in the deconstruction of philosophy necessary to its continuing
> reconstruction on an objective bases. That he stated, "there are few
> philosophers", is somewhat discouraging but there are many threads
> such as the constructivist, intuitionist, general semantics and even
> Scientology, which if they could be deconstructed and assimilated into
> the new constructionist objectivism. In many ways human philosophical
> legacy does more to obscure objectivity that enable it. There are
> those who are inclined to be the keepers of the scrolls and tie the
> immanent transcendence of philosophy to its rich legacy. But few are
> inclined to brave its deep waters and it is both necessary and
> reasonable that change includes those who frolic in its shallows.
> Deconstruction, after all is going back to basics and denial of
> traditional, common, and simple truth. It is primarily a habit of
> disbelief in the obvious in the search for greater understanding and
> the writing of the new scrolls of objective philosophy.
>
> It is a disruptive manner of thought that challenges all the ideals we
> hold dear and serve to enable our decisive action in our world. It
> strips us of all certainty. The very nature of truth is changed from
> absolute to tenuous. We can no longer make any general statement
> without being wrong. The very notion of being becomes uncontainable.
> The singular loses its independent substance.
>
>> This discussion has definitely taken a turn
>> towards rational reflection and hopefully towards a rational rethinking of
>> money and our relationship to it.
>
> To be clear, rational reflection in the common manner is does not
> enforce objectivity. It does not work. Objective reflection requires
> that each notion is decomposed into into the multiplicity of its
> genesis and composed into a synthesis that is incrementally and
> inconclusive. It is a manner of thinking quite distinct from
> rationalization which exhibits actual realization distinct from
> imagination. It is a process of continuous improvement rather than
> completion where the validity of induction is always in doubt. It is
> uncommon intelligence in the realm of our collective stupidity.
>
> Construction of such an epistemology of phenomenology provides a
> foundation of actual intelligence. Our collective application of such
> a methodology realizes our collective intelligence incrementally.
>
>> Obviously ignoring the constant screams of
>> advertisers and saving money is bringing the system to its knees.
>
> To its end and new beginning let us pray.
>
> Wall street loses made saving dominant over spending, while starving
> the system of active capital and active markets. Additional debt can
> only prolong the agony.
>
> At the same time we have great opportunities for the industry of
> humanity in becoming responsible stewards of the earth and beyond and
> cooperatively maximizing the opportunity of every individual to thrive
> and contribute to the richness of humanity and the quality of life.
>
> Changing how people think could take a thousand years. The global
> information revolution however actualizes the possibility that we may
> find a consensus for collective belief and action in a fraction of the
> time required historically. The ideals of the American revolution,
> for example, might finally be realized.
>
> The great danger is that our collective action is without objectivity
> and we allow unexpected consequences to subvert our good intentions.
> A systematic, holistic, natural, evolutionary progression, hedging all
> bets, capitalizing on minimalistic systematic interference,
> deconstructing what is, while constructing what can be, is possible.
> Discipline rather than great ideas is the primary determinant of
> success.
>
> It will take an infinity of millennia for us to solve all our problems
> and realize our full potential. But we ought to be able to develop a
> consensus that monetary reform is essential and collaborate on
> actualizing a minimal action to realize that one thing independently.
>
> I suggest that collectively providing a stable interest free money
> supply and capital for real value generation are our most immediate
> needs, as well as a long term needs, in the enablement of our ability
> to fulfill our potential.
>
> We can actualize these now by proactively using alternative
> capitalization and alternative currencies. We can promote collective
> monetary reform and capitalization of real value generation.
>
> Do we have a consensus on this? If so, why is it not being realized
> in a timely manner, and how can we fix that? If not, why not? What
> is the disagreement and what are the practically arbitratible
> synthesises? How can the neoreconstructionists avoid rationalization
> and incrementally develop collective intelligence in collective
> action. How do we work smarter rather than harder in the realization
> of our dream? How do we actualize our assimilation while avoiding
> enslavement to the powerful and the tyranny of the majority.
>
> Jim
> http://MonetaryReformAct.org
> http://InformationPhysics.com
>> Clarence
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Jim Whitescarver
>> To: cosmology-mathematics-and-philosophy at googlegroups.com
>> Cc: cosmology-mathematics-and-philosophy at yahoogroups.com ;
>> infophysics at yahoogroups.com ; monetary reform ; Discussion Forum for
>> Global
>> Justice ; FixGov at yahoogroups.com ; quantumrelativity at yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 1:21 AM
>> Subject: [quantumrelativity] Immanent Capitalism Re: Derrida - "I'll have
>> to
>> wonder all alone"
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 11:46 AM, maria odete madeira
>> <mariaodete.sm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> "Like Nietzsche and Artaud, like Blanchot and other shared admirations,
>>> Deleuze never lost sight of this alliance between
>>> necessity and the aleatory,
>>
>> Such serendipity or providence is expression of the Golden Theorem,
>> that what has a finite probability happens in finite time.
>>
>>> between chaos and the untimely.
>>
>> Murphy's Law, what can do wrong, will go wrong.
>>
>> Together leading ultimately, to me, to pluralism and the law of
>> exceptions, that there is an exception to every law except this law.
>> And that the categorical imperative is not decided until the end of
>> time.
>>
>>> ... What interests us the most is the analysis
>>> of capitalism as an immanent system
>>
>> Immanent since capital trumps all power on earth but that of nature.
>> Yet there can be no plane of immanence without possible transcendence.
>> There is no persistently extant singularity, as Deleuze himself
>> proclaimed before his death, there is no ultimate immanence except
>> immanence itself.
>>
>>> that constantly pushes back its proper limits,
>>
>> Insidious in its proliferation, a thriving ecology of capital has been
>> pervasive, even in communist countries. It is seemingly inescapable.
>> Capital and power are virtually the same thing in practice. It
>> controls our commerce, industry, media and governments. It rewrites
>> history and programs our beliefs.
>>
>>> and that always finds them again on a larger scale, because the
>>> limit is Capital itself.""
>>
>> It always expands the money supply to a larger scale by what means?
>> In the present era the banking system creates capital out of thin air
>> in the interest of the owners of the world banks. History shows war
>> has been their primary mechanism to capitalize both sides in order to
>> push the proper limits of monetary expansion and expand the money
>> supply.
>>
>> Suppose the people took control of the money supply, and took the role
>> of the money interests for the good of humanity. Suppose they
>> employed spending to encourage activity and taxing to discourage
>> activity to perturb the chaordic economic system such that it tended
>> toward sustainable growth, freedom and an improved quality of life.
>> Suppose the people never pushed the proper limits of capital and
>> allowed capital to grow limited only by its service to humanity.
>> Could the bullies still dominate?
>>
>> http://sites.google.com/a/monetaryreformact.org/monetary-reform-act/sustainability
>>
>> The bully, in theory, does not win the evolutionary game. Destruction
>> ultimately destroys itself. The people have always had the power but
>> are trained to serve the money interests and to believe they are doing
>> right doing so.
>> http://WikiWorld.com/EvolutionaryGameTheory
>>
>> Capitalism is now controlled pluralisticly by the money masters and
>> their stooges. If we instead engineer capital that belongs to the
>> people and control the supply by responsible spending and taxing, how
>> could any force have more power than the people acting in their common
>> interest? If we can engineer a bridge that will not fall down we can
>> surely engineer an economy that won't fall down. If it is possible,
>> the bullies would lose and the people would win.
>>
>> Otherwise, I fear, Derrida's foreboding is imminent, and the money
>> masters will always arise on a larger scale enslaving the rest of us
>> as lambs to the slaughter despite our feeble attempts at regulation
>> without the people taking control of the money supply.
>>
>>> http://www.usc.edu/dept/comp-lit/tympanum/1/derrida1.html
>>
>> To take effective control we need to unlearn all the wrong things we
>> have been led to believe we need to make new habits of pluralism in
>> our thinking and unity in our collective action engineered using
>> objective criteria.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralism
>> http://InformationPhysics.com
>>
>> Jim
>> http://MonetaryReformAct.org
>
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From maryrose333 at att.net  Thu Jan 15 18:50:08 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:50:08 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: Have a vision of CA's food future? Nominate your food
	hero today!
Message-ID: <000001c9777c$c66f4200$534dc600$@net>

Whether at the grassroots level or at the government level it looks people
are turning out to 

Ensure a safer and better food future.  Grow local and grow organic coupled
with "buy local" 

Is becoming quite popular.  Are you part of this trend? 

 

mary rose for FutureDawning.org   

From: Tiffany Nurrenbern, Roots of Change [mailto:tiffany at rocnetwork.org] 
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 3:53 PM
To: maryrose333 at att.net
Subject: Have a vision of CA's food future? Nominate your food hero today!

 




roc logo

 


	
 


	
		
 



 
Dear MaryRose, 

 


NRDC Rolls out the Green Carpet
ROC Fellow and allies to choose winner of $10,000 Green Growing prize
Michael Pollan 


The Natural Resources Defense Council has announced their first annual
sustainable food awards. The Growing Green Awards will be given to
outstanding individuals in each of the three categories: Food Producer,
Business Leader, and Thought Leader. The winning Food Producer gets to take
home a $10,000 cash prize. ROC Fellow Larry Bain, CRAE founding member Karen
Ross, and Food Declaration framers Michael Pollan and  Fred Kirschenmann
will select the winners, but they need your help to find the right
candidates.

Do you know someone that deserves to be recognized for their extraordinary
contributions to the sustainable food movement? 

 

Nominate your food hero today!
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001613r6szy3UxYXNDSb_pdH-Lg4XR51-1Nkxwv0oGob_tGWO3J
ODgV5qWSZW_WkhgPI7SFbczh-x4BClF6sDBazUKfIRBjuOut4NFgQFzUnfeVC4KHYTp5y__MQNq2
HrhTy79pHq_yIVOSJUmm_aP-0HO5H6c3AS4YXoVI1lniOcYF3lF2PQ36XQ==> 

Nominations will be accepted through Friday, February 6. More info available
at www.rocnetwork.org
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001613r6szy3UxYXNDSb_pdH-Lg4XR51-1Nkxwv0oGob_tGWO3J
ODgV5qWSZW_WkhgPI7SFbczh-x4BClF6sDBazUKfIRBjuOut4NFgQFzUnfeVC4KHYTp5y__MQNq2
HrhTy79pHq_yIVOSJUmm_aP-0HO5H6c3AS4YXoVI1lniOcYF3lF2PQ36XQ==> .

 



A New Vision for California Agriculture
Two chances for you to impact the future of food in our state 
 
Fruit Stand- FinalTwo recent events have created unprecedented opportunities
for you to help set state food policy.

1. The State, led by the Secretary of Agriculture, AG Kawamura, launched its
move toward a sustainable food system by publishing a draft California
Agricultural Vision. The vision offers three primary goals: better health
and well being for people; a healthier planet; and economically vibrant
communities. This is a very positive indication that our voices are being
heard -- and now they want your input.
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001613r6szy3Uw9lHdA9bpsXIRzrPiQ18tIvsc6zAaSLogA2eis
ioDeTD_7naFpAO7AsOK5AcSi29x6yOHNuyIb4u1E_scTNZ6JWIsOrKpQSSHHtwLPJcZ8a2mnWKqz
AzHsuKwJCFvXEBlx3XmnMDnH4KqoHc1dgne_GtcR1QmWPRfst6oj_FCx1Lzy6T4KbO1m> 

2. The newly formed Senate Committee on Food and Agriculture will be holding
hearings across the state on the future of California's food and agriculture
policies. Led by Majority Leader Dean Florez, the Committee seeks more
public influence over four interrelated issues: food safety, food security,
animal welfare, and sustainable farming systems. The Committee recently
launched a new website that offers many opportunities to engage.

Let the Governor, Secretary and the Senate Committee know what critical
changes are needed to create the future you want to see.  Join a campaign
that seeks practical programs and policies supported with federal and state
funds. 

TAKE ACTION
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001613r6szy3Uw9lHdA9bpsXIRzrPiQ18tIvsc6zAaSLogA2eis
ioDeTD_7naFpAO7AsOK5AcSi29x6yOHNuyIb4u1E_scTNZ6JWIsOrKpQSSHHtwLPJcZ8a2mnWKqz
AzHsuKwJCFvXEBlx3XmnMDnH4KqoHc1dgne_GtcR1QmWPRfst6oj_FCx1Lzy6T4KbO1m> 

 
<http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001613r6szy3Uw9lHdA9bpsXIRzrPiQ18tIvsc6zAaSLogA2eis
ioDeTD_7naFpAO7AsOK5AcSi29x6yOHNuyIb4u1E_scTNZ6JWIsOrKpQSSHHtwLPJcZ8a2mnWKqz
AzHsuKwJCFvXEBlx3XmnMDnH4KqoHc1dgne_GtcR1QmWPRfst6oj_FCx1Lzy6T4KbO1m> Push
the grass tops to serve the grassroots! See what other Changemakers have to
say about these important developments. 


 

	


Roots of Change, 221 Kearny Street, 3rd Floor San Francisco, California
94108
www.rocnetwork.org

		


http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/1101093164665/newsgardening_fo
oterbg1.gif

		

	
		

 


Forward email
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att.net&a=1102411912002> 


 
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From karenmike at ntlworld.com  Sun Jan 18 05:31:49 2009
From: karenmike at ntlworld.com (Karen Michael)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 12:31:49 +0000
Subject: [GJM] Regarding Soddy.
Message-ID: <49732135.8000602@ntlworld.com>

Check out this Blog from Radar O'Reilly:


http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/01/the-biggest-ponzi-scheme-of-all.html




From jimscarver at gmail.com  Mon Jan 19 14:54:14 2009
From: jimscarver at gmail.com (Jim Whitescarver)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:54:14 -0500
Subject: [GJM] [ai-philosophy] [quantumrelativity] Immanent Capitalism
	Re: Derrida - "I'll have to wonder all alone"
In-Reply-To: <gl2a30+5csn@eGroups.com>
References: <320e992a0901190655u79d0210fpecfd6bf4777b3aa5@mail.gmail.com>
	<gl2a30+5csn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <f2a3ba50901191354v1a582d45t74820d142039fec5@mail.gmail.com>

There have always been angel factors in the pluralism of the money
masters, but it seems there is truth in that absolute power corrupts
absolutely, and no revolution or manner of war has changed it.  The
idea that someone could sneak in a win against all the money powers
seems rather unlikely.  The people in power have proven themselves
smart enough to retain power.

If we can get monetary reform enacted, taking control of the money
supply,  in the manner of Franklyn, Jackson and Lincoln, history says
they will make war of some sort and take it back.  That is why
Jefferson and Friedman advocated a constitutional amendment, so they
could not take it back.

"Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the
power to create money and control credit, and with a flick of a pen
they will create enough to buy it back." - Sir Josiah Stamp, former
President,  Bank of England

The main issue is that passing something like
http://MonetaryReformAct.org requires forcing politicians to go up
against the money masters, which historically has been the death
sentence for most any one's career if they were not assassinated.

Money power denounces, as public enemies, all who question its
methods or throw light upon its crimes." - Wm. Jennings Bryan

It seem possible, however, on the Internet, that people will discover
the truth of who controls our money for what purpose, and will demand
that their politicians support monetary reform since, as Henry for put
it, ""It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand
our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there
would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.".
http://MonetaryReformAct.org

Once the people have the power, we still have the problems of group
think, (mass stupidity), and the tyranny of the majority, and the
continuing battle against the money masters who will still own just
about everything.  The will no longer have the power to create money
directly, but can still control the masses by their ownership of the
media and government by ownership of our politicians.

Friedman suggested the best way to control the money supply is by
delegating control to a computer.  Government spending and loans would
increase the money supply 3 to 5 percent a year to account for
population growth and real productivity increases and value gained
through responsible spending, such that there was neither inflation,
indicating too much money in supply, and or deflation, indicating too
much money.  Taking the human element our of the control of the money
supply, takes with it political and special interest control.

That is all well and good, but the only way to really beat the money
masters is in their own game.   Monetary reform is a necessary
prerequisite since it makes the playing field level.

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute
master of all industry and commerce." - James A. Garfield

But if we do not play a better game then they do, they can still rule
over us in the marketplace.  A good first line of defense would be to
isolate. in so far as it is possible, the overall economy from
susceptibility to the activities of gambling.  The most sensible
action is to not play the game and invest primarily in concrete long
term value and not play the market like Monte Carlo.  Given the
lessons learned in the current crisis,  the evils of gambling stand
naked before us, and given alternatives, it should not be difficult to
discourage speculation.    But we cannot separate the market and
gambling.  On the one hand, there is little gamble in filling a real
need at a competitive price, and no shortages of needs that might be
filled.  On the other hand the money masters generate scarcity to
inflate prices and floods to deflate them to control markets. To keep
the market free and fair we ought exercise the power of controlling
the money supply to control the money masters just as they have used
it to control us.  In the game of gambling, the one with the most
money can always win.  So, whoever controls the money supply can
always win.  We have the power to make the manipulations of the
markets by the money masters unprofitable.  The difficulty becomes how
to prevent public participation in the economy from being subverted by
the money masters and insure our participation is for our benefit
really, and we are not fooled into playing into their hands.

If the gamblers cannot effect the money supply we ought not care what
they do.  We ought to be immune from their their losses or gains.  In
the new international economy traders anywhere can complete trades of
any derivative product wherever in the world it is legal to be do.  We
get no benefit off shoring these trades and should not bother
regulating trading.  Free enterprise means we ought allow people to be
stupid.  We may have a moral obligation to educate them that their
activities are counterproductive in the long term, but we cannot
enslave them to our way.  The only control necessary is that our
economy is insulated from their activity.  Since we cannot always
avoid playing, we should do so in a manner that counteracts or hedges
against potential impacts.

The good part of the skill set required for gambling is far more
effective using a computer, Humans are notoriously poor as estimating
risk.  Computers, with complete models and complete data are perfect.
This is an immanent application for artificial intelligence
augmentation of human intelligence.  Not some monolithic thing, but an
organic collective objective competition of models as applied to the
totality of historical data up to the second.  We have seen what the
result of incomplete models can be.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/ascentofmoney/ (great video except it fails to
illuminate role of money masters)

The human element cannot be eliminated and ought not be, it is the
human benefit we are seeking, not the machine's benefit.  The
challenge is separate monetary control from political interest and
popular belief.  Objective criteria in the application of competing
models insures honest expectations which ought not be subject to
political influence.  Transparency can enable open audit that the best
models are applied to correct information.  Government action with
respect to combating resource depletion, cornered markets, market
displacement, and other wasteful or unfair practices can be designed
by principle, according to contract, to be implemented in a cook book
fashion, transparently employing proven best practices, rather than
specifics, such that special interests have little power to control
when and where they are applied generally.  The part of the budget
where politicians have complete control must be kept at a level that
is far too low to be a threat to any segment of the economy.

In the end, in this manner, the operation of government can become
largely automated, with the principles of freedom and diversity of
markets built in to its control of the markets in the exercise of its
powers of spending, loaning, and taxing, their effect on the money
supply, and what economic activities are subsidized and encouraged,
and those that are taxed and discouraged, to keep the market fair,
while meeting the social needs of a free society.  The human role
simply becomes the improvement of models and resolving indeterminacy,
on roughly equal alternatives.  Control of the market by our purse
strings allows minimal interference in the free market by our
responsible participation.

The role of artificial intelligence, becomes a check and balance on
our collective intelligence, rather than a replacement for it, to help
insure our models are incrementally more holistic, and thus our
collective action is in our interest fair, transparently, such that
special interests cannot control it.  There is an irony in that we use
the intelligence of the machine as a tool to ensure the intelligent
collective action of humanity such that it is not subverted.

On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 11:34 AM, John J. Gagne <john_j_gagne at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- In ai-philosophy at yahoogroups.com, Eray Ozkural <erayo at ...> wrote:
>>
>> I cannot tell you which method would be the fairest in a basically
>> capitalist system. But allow me to tell you what does not work.
>> Careless deployment of derivatives and other financial instruments
>> has created what I call the greater Ponzi scheme. We promise
>> unbounded growth of the economy in a finite world with imperfect
>> efficiencies. Combined with the goals of capitalism that is
>> exploiting the poor and making the rich richer this has resulted in
>> a virtual economy that is not grounded in facts. It has turned to
>> make believe. Do you really think that supply and demand matter in
>> a virtual economy? The major players will and can manipulate
>> everything. This credit bubble could be the foreteller of a much
>> greater fundamental problem with economy. I think this stems from
>> foolish faith in ideology and platonic forms of economy. We must
>> find a system that is based on physical facts. I suspect that the
>> result will be a technologically advanced sort of communism. I
>> think no person should get too rich or have too much power
>> especially people like those corrupt neo cons. However to make a
>> fundamental change smart people must come to power. I wonder if
>> that is even possible.
>
> As far as I can see with my crystal balls (rub a dub-dub and if we're
> talking about a peaceful solution which results in a major shift in
> power) it's not very likely. But if your question is (not if it's
> likely but rather) if it's possible, certainly that depends of how
> "smart" these "smart people" really are???
>
> Certainly we would have to rule out working "within" the bounds of the
> rules of the current system. This means a covert operation by a small
> group of (*smart*) individuals. Step one for them would be to gain
> control of the money supply (by whatever covert means possible). Only
> once this is done can there be any hope of making any changes.
>
> But this also implies that informing (educating) the general public
> and encouraging change through official Government legislation is not
> a very *smart* strategy (unless it's just a smoke screen for other
> activities). This educate the public methodology places all your cards
> face up on the table and I simply don't see this kind of approach
> working.
>
> The "people" (if all goes well) should never even know a major shift
> in power took place for them.
>
> JJG
>
> _


From ecotort at gn.apc.org  Tue Jan 20 03:07:18 2009
From: ecotort at gn.apc.org (EcoTort Theatre)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:07:18 +0000
Subject: [GJM] [Fwd: Re: UK Bill of Rights must include right to a healthy
	environment]
Message-ID: <4975A256.6070002@gn.apc.org>



--

*THE /_ABSOLUTE_/ RIGHT TO LIVE
IN A HEALTHY ENVIRONMENT
**/_ALREADY_/ **EXISTS IN UK,USA AND INTERNATIONAL LAW !

SEE **http://www.ecotort.gn.apc.org*

*SORRY TO SHOUT, BUT I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR MORE THAN THIRTY YEARS...

WHEN WILL THE  **HIERARCHIES** of FoE, GreenPeace, Earth First, Climate 
Change, GlastonBURY FESTERville... ETC    (you know who you are...)
 WAKE UP AND LISTEN?????
*


*PROBABLY ONLY WHEN YOU REALISE
/THAT YOU CAN'T EAT MONEY !/*


we do NOT need a bill of rights or a constitution, we only need PUBLIC 
KNOWLEGE OF THE LAW IN IT'S BEAUTUIFUL SIMPLICITY.

Despite the best efforts of those concerned with the obfuscation of the 
TRUTH, the EcoTort site has had over seven million hits in the last 
twelve months...

IMHO, those who have intentionally kept this knowlege hidden are worse 
that G.W.BUSH and his ILK, and I trust that they will be rewarded 
accordingly in the near future.





owner-pressrelease at foe.co.uk wrote:
> UK Bill of Rights must include right to a healthy environment 
>
> 19th January 2009
>
> http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/press_releases/bill_of_rights_19012009.html
>
> The right to live in a healthy environment should be included in a UK Bill of Rights, Friends of the Earth said today (19 January 2009). 
>
>
> The call comes as the Government published its response to a report from a committee of MPs which urged the Government to make the right to a healthy and sustainable environment a legal obligation.
>
>
> The environmental campaign group welcomed the Government's recognition that the change could "help to foster awareness of and collective responsibility for our environment". This would make it easier for people to challenge high-carbon developments like new airports and roads, and could be used to protect the rights of people abroad affected by decisions made in the UK.
>
>
> Friends of the Earth's environmental rights campaigner Claire Wilton said:
>
>
>
> "Everyone should have the right to live in a healthy environment - and this must be spelt out in a Bill of Rights. 
>
>
>
> "It's often the poorest and most vulnerable people who live with the worst environmental conditions and struggle to make their views heard.  
>
>
>
> "The Government must improve the lives of this and future generations - and make it easier for people to challenge decisions that damage their environment and health."
>
>
>
> Notes to Editors
>
>
> 1. The Joint Committee on Human Rights published a report in August 2008 which called for the right to a healthy and sustainable environment to be part of a new UK Bill of Rights. Today's Government response to this report is available at http://www.parliament.uk/jchr/ 
>
>
> 2. Friends of the Earth believes that everyone has the right to live in a healthy environment, and is campaigning for a new, strong environmental right in the UK that will enable ordinary people to hold decision makers to account for actions which harm the environment on which we all depend. 
>
>
> 3. The Ministry of Justice is shortly expected to publish a Green Paper on the Bill of Rights. Justice Secretary Jack Straw will appear before the Joint Committee on Human Rights tomorrow to discuss what would be a major constitutional change for the UK.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Friends of the Earth		         Email:	info at foe.co.uk
> 26-28 Underwood Street		        URL:	http://www.foe.co.uk
> London				                 Tel:	020 7490 1555
> N1 7JQ				                 Fax:	020 7490 0881
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Support Friends of the Earth
> https://www.foe.co.uk/?email_pressrel
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> to unsubscribe from pressrelease, send a message to majordomo at foe.co.uk
> from the email account you registered with:
> unsubscribe pressrelease
> in the message body
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>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3755 (20090109) __________
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> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
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>
>
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>   

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From jimscarver at gmail.com  Tue Jan 20 10:02:05 2009
From: jimscarver at gmail.com (Jim Whitescarver)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 12:02:05 -0500
Subject: [GJM] change, vision, hope
Message-ID: <f2a3ba50901200902j6eb2f5c8re7dbc4f45b07afdc@mail.gmail.com>

It is a historic day of change with hope that the vision that the
people's interest, rather than the special interests, might be
immanent in America.

Scientism posits that change is random.  In truth evolution is
inevitable but it is not random.  In truth anything might happen but
not without cause.

It is now 140 minutes before change says the TV.

There is hope a campaign taken to the people empowered them to
overpower the powers that rule the world, the bankers, the military
industrial complex, secrete societies, Wall Street, the political
machine and the media owned and controlled by the money masters who
have been granted control of our economy.  There is hope that the
people will take back the power of money from the money masters in the
spirit of Franklyn, Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, Eisenhower, Kennedy,
Gandhi, King and Milton Friedman.

We are led to expect change on day one and day one has arrived.

History proves that whoever goes against the money interests will be
discredited or assassinated, we have hope he will survive this day.

It is naive to think power can be taken from the special interests or
that the people have the wisdom to rule any better?  Perhaps, but the
possibility for change is real, and can be should we exhibit the will
for real change.

Will he announce today the reclamation of control of the money supply
by the people to be invested responsibly to create value for futurity
rather than debt?  There is hope the capital value of the planet earth
be employed for our common benefit rather than the benefit of an elite
few.  Should he not declare war on the secrete societies today there
is still hope he will reveal his cards at the end of the game with our
power in hand.

Every eyes is watching. It is time for change.

We have hope that the meek will inherit the earth and there will be a
thousand years of peace and prosperity.

Let it be.

Jim
http://MonetaryReformAct.org


From ecotort at gn.apc.org  Tue Jan 20 11:06:41 2009
From: ecotort at gn.apc.org (EcoTort Theatre)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 18:06:41 +0000
Subject: [GJM] CC News Letter 20/01- Must Read,
	The Editor Who Wrote his own obituary
Message-ID: <497612B1.2000008@gn.apc.org>

Hello EcoTort List   :-)

My computer crashed this week, and my address book was deleted......so I 
have reverted to an earlier one, which means that some people who have 
asked to be removed may be included again here.

Please do let me know (reply with "remove" in the subject line...) if 
this applies to you, and your address will be removed before the next 
mail out.

Also there may be some duplicate mailings, this will only happen this 
time (until I get it sorted...).

*Some good news, the EcoTort website <http://www.ecotort.gn.apc.org>, 
which, since I'm learning web design (at last!), I can now update, has 
had /_over seven million hits_/ in the last twelve months;
so, a big up to everyone who is spreading the word...
*
*we seem to be having some effect !*

*Cheers from Nick
*
*
EcoTort Theatre
Hackney,
London.
UK.

*

*countercurrents*




Hello,

If you find this news letter useful, kindly forward it to your friends and encourage them to join this mailing list.
http://www.countercurrents.org/subscribe.htm. 

In Solidarity
Binu

(+: please mention EcoTort if you subscribe to the countercurrents list :+)
 



*Surviving  In The Tough Times Ahead 
By Emily Spence
*
http://www.countercurrents.org/spence200109.htm

Ian Sample's "Billions face food shortages, study warns" , based on findings by researchers at Washington and Stanford Universities, points out some of the progressively difficult conditions that will likely lead to widespread starvation in times ahead. Its conclusions fit well with ones posed in Paul Chefurka's "World Energy and Population Trends to 2100" and "Peak Oil, Carrying Capacity and Overshoot: Population, the Elephant in the Room". 



*Why Israel Won't Survive 
By Ali Abunimah
*
http://www.countercurrents.org/abunimah200109.htm

The dehumanization and demonization of Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims has escalated to the point where Israel can with full self- righteousness bomb their homes, places of worship, schools, universities, factories, fishing boats, police stations -- in short everything that sustains civilized and orderly life -- and claim it is conducting a war against terrorism. Yet paradoxically, it is Israel as a Zionist state, not Palestine or the Palestinian people, that cannot survive this attempted genocide



*Israel?s Doctrine Of Destruction 
By Jonathan Cook *

http://www.countercurrents.org/cook200109.htm

Israel?s military strategy in Gaza, even in what its officials were calling the ?final act?, followed a blueprint laid down during the Lebanon war more than two years ago



*An MOU To Kill More Palestinians 
By Dr. Akram Habeeb*

http://www.countercurrents.org/habeeb200109.htm

The most recent MOU signed by Dr. Condi and Ms. Livne, one of the most notorious Israeli war criminals, stipulates that the American government helps in preventing weapons smuggling into Gaza. However, unfortunately this MOU does not stipulate that the American government stops sending weapons of mass destruction to Israel



*Civilian Casualties In Palestinian/Israeli Conflict Should Be Primary Concern
By Brian McAfee*

http://www.countercurrents.org/mccafee200109.htm  <http://www.countercurrents.org/mccafee200109.htm>

The U.S. all too frequent blanket and blind support of Israel both diplomatically and in unrestricted arms sales indicates tacit approval and support for anything Israel does. We should voice our concern for decency and compassion for those caught in the crossfire and for an end to the state of siege Israel has put upon the Palestinians. Siege only causes resentment, uncalled for and unnecessary suffering, develops hatreds and prolongs conflicts



*>From Lebanon To Gaza: Israel's D?j? Vu 
By Max Kantar
*
http://www.countercurrents.org/kantar200109.htm

>From a historical perspective, it's almost eerie to watch the events in Gaza unfold today as they closely mirror the patterns, motives, and propaganda that led to Israel's 1982 "Operation Peace for Galilee" invasion of southern Lebanon. A careful student of history and the ongoing crisis will find that all rhetoric and politics aside, Israel's motivations and aims haven't fundamentally changed over the past several decades



*Gaza Carnage And America's Pro-Israel Policies
By Ubaid Mushtaq*

http://www.countercurrents.org/mushtaq200109.htm

When the Mumbai tragedy took place everybody was quick to condemn the attackers and to call for an immediate action against them and had sympathy with the Indian people but, It is very sad that a captive population of Palestine is being killed by air as well as ground onslaughts by Israelis and there is no condemnation of Israeli terrorism that is on an even larger-scale than that perpetrated in Mumbai


*
Gaza: The Franco-Egyptian Proposal 
By Dr. Elias Akleh*

http://www.countercurrents.org/akleh200109.htm

Despite the collaboration of the Egyptian regime in choking and weakening Hamas government, and playing the Israeli proxy mediator role rather than supporting their Arab brothers against the Israeli genocide, Mubarak?s regime was abandoned and left exposed as a traitor, and was not given the chance to exonerate itself. Such is the fate of all so-called moderate Arab leaders. They are to be used and dumped when their usefulness expires



*And Then They Came For Me 
By Lasantha Wickramatunga*

http://www.countercurrents.org/lasantha200109.htm

The Editor Who Wrote his own obituary 



*Truth, By George 
By Rand Clifford
*
http://www.countercurrents.org/clifford200109.htm

American life floods us with one particular very tried and true untruth: Everything our federal government tells us, either officially, or through mainstream corporate media. So, a reliable working definition of truth here could be: "Exactly what government does not tell". Certainly they tell occasional superficial truths, but those always have tendrils merging into the massive and nearby body of deceit



*It Is All Because Of Us 
By Aditi Munot
*
http://www.countercurrents.org/munot200109.htm

Every single world problem, if we look closely enough springs from our personal thoughts. The roots of all these evils sprout in our very own minds. Thus, the question is not What is Wrong with the World but What Is Wrong With Each One Of Us?



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From jimscarver at gmail.com  Wed Jan 21 09:04:13 2009
From: jimscarver at gmail.com (Jim Whitescarver)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:04:13 -0500
Subject: [GJM] change, vision, hope
In-Reply-To: <f2a3ba50901200902j6eb2f5c8re7dbc4f45b07afdc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f2a3ba50901200902j6eb2f5c8re7dbc4f45b07afdc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f2a3ba50901210804w6aec52b3j92fcfc1f19e25e96@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Lan Johnson <lanjohnson at wavecable.com> wrote:
>
> Jim,
>
> What makes you think Obama will take on the banking establishment and the money changers? I wish & hope he will but I don't think he has that intention at all.

If he is a true follower of Lincoln, he will fight against the control
of the people by the banks.  Lincoln said, "The Government should
create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credits needed to
satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of
consumers. By the adoption of these principles, the taxpayers will be
saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease to be master and
become the servant of humanity."  I am hopeful Obama's legacy will be
to fulfill Lincoln's dream.

"Our economy is badly weakened, a consequence of greed and
irresponsibility on the part of some, but also our collective failure
to make hard choices and prepare the nation for a new age."

I have hope that Obama is smart enough to understand that the hard
choice of reclaiming the money supply is a fundamental requirement for
the new age.

"We will not apologize for our way of life, nor will we waver in its
defense, and for those who seek to advance their aims by inducing
terror and slaughtering innocents, we say to you now that our spirit
is stronger and cannot be broken; you cannot outlast us, and we will
defeat you."

The key word here is that he explicitly declares war, not on those who
carry out terror, but on those who "induce" terror.  An objective
analysis of history reveals the money interests have consistently
induced terror and war, directly or indirectly, throughout history, to
maintain control of money and its issuance.  Terror and war is induced
by the active incitement and capital backing of people on both sides
of a conflict, resolving virtually nothing while tightening the grip
of the money masters on us.

Lincoln knew well that the civil war was an economic war, and I have
hope that Obama is not deluded into thinking the war on terror is any
different.

> Only a nasty old cut throat who has know regard for his own safety would try that, the likes of Andrew Jackson.

Franklyn, Jefferson, Madison, Garfiled, Lincoln, FDR, Kennedy, also
tried to beat the banking interests.  It may have taken the likes of
Jackson to actually beat them, but he only won the battle, not the
war, as they ultimately destroyed him by inducing monetary failure.
Obama's war is different in character, both took their case to the
people, but Jackson took on the banks personally.  It is not so much
Obama against the special interests, it is the people reclaiming
control.  It is not doing one thing, but it is a commitment to stay in
the game for the long haul.  It is my hope that it is a spirit that
goes beyond the man Obama and is a victory for the people such that it
cannot be trumped by the money masters no matter what treachery they
might induce.

Despite Jackson's adversial nature we ought not through out the baby
with the bath water.

"If congress has the right under the Constitution to issue paper
money, it was given them to use themselves, not to be delegated to
individuals or corporations." -Andrew Jackson

> I wish Obama the best, he is a good man and the responsibility of the office will temper him, but he has some goofy screwballs around him. Only time will tell.

I am heartened by the tone of his inauguration speech which stood on
just universal principles rather than politics, I have hope he has
already laid the foundation for the tough choices needed to realize
Lincoln's dream, and made immanent a new age, where capital serves the
people that could only be strengthen in the event of his martyrdom
such that there would be no purpose for the money masters.

"Now, there are some who question the scale of our ambitions... What
the cynics fail to understand is that the ground has shifted beneath
them -- that the stale political arguments that have consumed us for
so long no longer apply."

"The success of our economy has always depended ... on our ability to
extend opportunity to every willing heart -- not out of charity, but
because it is the surest route to our common good."

"To those who cling to power through corruption and deceit and the
silencing of dissent, know that you are on the wrong side of history;
but that we will extend a hand if you are willing to unclench your
fist."

To me, this elicits the words of James Madison, "History records that
the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit,
and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments
by controlling money and its issuance."  I am given hope that without
retribution or blame, Obama is inclusive of even the money masters, as
they are willing, in the realization a just monetary system.  It is a
war of assimilation, where we hope, resistance is futile.

In the spirit of JFK's, call to our service to government, Obama gives
us the responsibility to control our own future.

"What is required of us now is a new era of responsibility -- a
recognition, on the part of every American, that we have duties to
ourselves, our nation, and the world, duties that we do not grudgingly
accept but rather seize gladly, firm in the knowledge that there is
nothing so satisfying to the spirit, so defining of our character,
than giving our all to a difficult task.  This is the price and the
promise of citizenship."

The vision and hope for humanity I lived in the days of Eisenhower and
Kennedy has been lost by recent generations.  Even the vision and
promise of the American revolution has in many ways lost its luster in
recent times.  This may indeed be the moment, as Obama proclaimed, "a
moment that will define a [new] generation.", and what has been lost
may be regained in even greater glory.

Obama concluded, "Let it be said by our childrens' children that when
we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not
turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and
Gods grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and
delivered it safely to future generations."

In order to promote the potential of this future we must take the
challenge personally and fly in the face of the cynics.

"our time of standing pat, of protecting narrow interests and putting
off unpleasant decisions -- that time has surely passed.  Starting
today, we must pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and begin again
the work of remaking America."

Personally, keeping the vision in mind, with unwavering hope, and
support for the change required to fulfill the vision, is the
challenge given to us.  Should we meet this challenge, the dream will
be realized.  Instead of government by rule of special interests,  and
we will finally realize a government truly of the people, by the
people, for the people,  the American revolution will have been won at
last.

The torch has not simply been passed from one president to another,
but by the words of Obama and the views of many who heard his words
yesterday, to a new generation of Americans and to all the peoples of
the world.  It is a test of our convictions and the future has been
delivered into our hands.  Business as usual has been given notice
this day, and there is hope we shall be delivered from the powers over
us should we have the courage to change such that the great vision of
the future of humanity is realized.

Indeed Obama may be tempered by the responsibilities of office, as
every president in my lifetime has failed to have the power in
practice, to deliver what they promised in principle.  But should not
be tempered in our resolve that the future of humanity and freedom not
be compromised.  Our mandate is the greatest power.  The future is in
our hands.

Jim
http://MonetaryReformAct.org

> Lan
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Whitescarver
> To: Cosmology Math and Phil ; quantumrelativity ; infophysics at yahoogroups.com ; quacksanonymous ; theoryofeverything ; monetary reform ; FixGov at yahoogroups.com ; Discussion Forum for Global Justice
> Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 9:02 AM
> Subject: [quantumrelativity] change, vision, hope
>
> It is a historic day of change with hope that the vision that the
> people's interest, rather than the special interests, might be
> immanent in America.
>
> Scientism posits that change is random. In truth evolution is
> inevitable but it is not random. In truth anything might happen but
> not without cause.
>
> It is now 140 minutes before change says the TV.
>
> There is hope a campaign taken to the people empowered them to
> overpower the powers that rule the world, the bankers, the military
> industrial complex, secrete societies, Wall Street, the political
> machine and the media owned and controlled by the money masters who
> have been granted control of our economy. There is hope that the
> people will take back the power of money from the money masters in the
> spirit of Franklyn, Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, Eisenhower, Kennedy,
> Gandhi, King and Milton Friedman.
>
> We are led to expect change on day one and day one has arrived.
>
> History proves that whoever goes against the money interests will be
> discredited or assassinated, we have hope he will survive this day.
>
> It is naive to think power can be taken from the special interests or
> that the people have the wisdom to rule any better? Perhaps, but the
> possibility for change is real, and can be should we exhibit the will
> for real change.
>
> Will he announce today the reclamation of control of the money supply
> by the people to be invested responsibly to create value for futurity
> rather than debt? There is hope the capital value of the planet earth
> be employed for our common benefit rather than the benefit of an elite
> few. Should he not declare war on the secrete societies today there
> is still hope he will reveal his cards at the end of the game with our
> power in hand.
>
> Every eyes is watching. It is time for change.
>
> We have hope that the meek will inherit the earth and there will be a
> thousand years of peace and prosperity.
>
> Let it be.
>
> Jim
> http://MonetaryReformAct.org


From jimscarver at gmail.com  Wed Jan 21 16:27:49 2009
From: jimscarver at gmail.com (Jim Whitescarver)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:27:49 -0500
Subject: [GJM] change, vision, hope
In-Reply-To: <2ac4491a0901211313x313882adk7365121de107e04f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f2a3ba50901200902j6eb2f5c8re7dbc4f45b07afdc@mail.gmail.com>
	<f2a3ba50901210804w6aec52b3j92fcfc1f19e25e96@mail.gmail.com>
	<2ac4491a0901211313x313882adk7365121de107e04f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f2a3ba50901211527r43b22e7ejac5a46bb38ec83fb@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Franklin Whitescarver
<frank at whitescarver.com> wrote:
> jim
> obama does not make the laws
> a corrupt congress makes the laws
> pop

A representative is forced to do what those he represents demand, if they care.

President Andrew Jackson, wrote: "The bold effort the present bank had
made to control the government, the distress it had wantonly
produced...are but premonitions of the fate that awaits the American
people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution
or the establishment of another like it."

Despite his warning the bank was chartered and then we went on to
establishe the Federal Reserve system, privately held, not federal or
a reserve, a private central bank by any name.

But he proved that, by taking his case to the people, the money
masters can be defeated.

Jim
http://monetaryReformAct.org
> On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 11:04 AM, Jim Whitescarver <jimscarver at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Lan Johnson <lanjohnson at wavecable.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Jim,
>>>
>>> What makes you think Obama will take on the banking establishment and the money changers? I wish & hope he will but I don't think he has that intention at all.
>>
>> If he is a true follower of Lincoln, he will fight against the control
>> of the people by the banks.  Lincoln said, "The Government should
>> create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credits needed to
>> satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of
>> consumers. By the adoption of these principles, the taxpayers will be
>> saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease to be master and
>> become the servant of humanity."  I am hopeful Obama's legacy will be
>> to fulfill Lincoln's dream.
>>
>> "Our economy is badly weakened, a consequence of greed and
>> irresponsibility on the part of some, but also our collective failure
>> to make hard choices and prepare the nation for a new age."
>>
>> I have hope that Obama is smart enough to understand that the hard
>> choice of reclaiming the money supply is a fundamental requirement for
>> the new age.
>>
>> "We will not apologize for our way of life, nor will we waver in its
>> defense, and for those who seek to advance their aims by inducing
>> terror and slaughtering innocents, we say to you now that our spirit
>> is stronger and cannot be broken; you cannot outlast us, and we will
>> defeat you."
>>
>> The key word here is that he explicitly declares war, not on those who
>> carry out terror, but on those who "induce" terror.  An objective
>> analysis of history reveals the money interests have consistently
>> induced terror and war, directly or indirectly, throughout history, to
>> maintain control of money and its issuance.  Terror and war is induced
>> by the active incitement and capital backing of people on both sides
>> of a conflict, resolving virtually nothing while tightening the grip
>> of the money masters on us.
>>
>> Lincoln knew well that the civil war was an economic war, and I have
>> hope that Obama is not deluded into thinking the war on terror is any
>> different.
>>
>>> Only a nasty old cut throat who has know regard for his own safety would try that, the likes of Andrew Jackson.
>>
>> Franklyn, Jefferson, Madison, Garfiled, Lincoln, FDR, Kennedy, also
>> tried to beat the banking interests.  It may have taken the likes of
>> Jackson to actually beat them, but he only won the battle, not the
>> war, as they ultimately destroyed him by inducing monetary failure.
>> Obama's war is different in character, both took their case to the
>> people, but Jackson took on the banks personally.  It is not so much
>> Obama against the special interests, it is the people reclaiming
>> control.  It is not doing one thing, but it is a commitment to stay in
>> the game for the long haul.  It is my hope that it is a spirit that
>> goes beyond the man Obama and is a victory for the people such that it
>> cannot be trumped by the money masters no matter what treachery they
>> might induce.
>>
>> Despite Jackson's adversial nature we ought not through out the baby
>> with the bath water.
>>
>> "If congress has the right under the Constitution to issue paper
>> money, it was given them to use themselves, not to be delegated to
>> individuals or corporations." -Andrew Jackson
>>
>>> I wish Obama the best, he is a good man and the responsibility of the office will temper him, but he has some goofy screwballs around him. Only time will tell.
>>
>> I am heartened by the tone of his inauguration speech which stood on
>> just universal principles rather than politics, I have hope he has
>> already laid the foundation for the tough choices needed to realize
>> Lincoln's dream, and made immanent a new age, where capital serves the
>> people that could only be strengthen in the event of his martyrdom
>> such that there would be no purpose for the money masters.
>>
>> "Now, there are some who question the scale of our ambitions... What
>> the cynics fail to understand is that the ground has shifted beneath
>> them -- that the stale political arguments that have consumed us for
>> so long no longer apply."
>>
>> "The success of our economy has always depended ... on our ability to
>> extend opportunity to every willing heart -- not out of charity, but
>> because it is the surest route to our common good."
>>
>> "To those who cling to power through corruption and deceit and the
>> silencing of dissent, know that you are on the wrong side of history;
>> but that we will extend a hand if you are willing to unclench your
>> fist."
>>
>> To me, this elicits the words of James Madison, "History records that
>> the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit,
>> and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments
>> by controlling money and its issuance."  I am given hope that without
>> retribution or blame, Obama is inclusive of even the money masters, as
>> they are willing, in the realization a just monetary system.  It is a
>> war of assimilation, where we hope, resistance is futile.
>>
>> In the spirit of JFK's, call to our service to government, Obama gives
>> us the responsibility to control our own future.
>>
>> "What is required of us now is a new era of responsibility -- a
>> recognition, on the part of every American, that we have duties to
>> ourselves, our nation, and the world, duties that we do not grudgingly
>> accept but rather seize gladly, firm in the knowledge that there is
>> nothing so satisfying to the spirit, so defining of our character,
>> than giving our all to a difficult task.  This is the price and the
>> promise of citizenship."
>>
>> The vision and hope for humanity I lived in the days of Eisenhower and
>> Kennedy has been lost by recent generations.  Even the vision and
>> promise of the American revolution has in many ways lost its luster in
>> recent times.  This may indeed be the moment, as Obama proclaimed, "a
>> moment that will define a [new] generation.", and what has been lost
>> may be regained in even greater glory.
>>
>> Obama concluded, "Let it be said by our childrens' children that when
>> we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not
>> turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and
>> Gods grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and
>> delivered it safely to future generations."
>>
>> In order to promote the potential of this future we must take the
>> challenge personally and fly in the face of the cynics.
>>
>> "our time of standing pat, of protecting narrow interests and putting
>> off unpleasant decisions -- that time has surely passed.  Starting
>> today, we must pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and begin again
>> the work of remaking America."
>>
>> Personally, keeping the vision in mind, with unwavering hope, and
>> support for the change required to fulfill the vision, is the
>> challenge given to us.  Should we meet this challenge, the dream will
>> be realized.  Instead of government by rule of special interests,  and
>> we will finally realize a government truly of the people, by the
>> people, for the people,  the American revolution will have been won at
>> last.
>>
>> The torch has not simply been passed from one president to another,
>> but by the words of Obama and the views of many who heard his words
>> yesterday, to a new generation of Americans and to all the peoples of
>> the world.  It is a test of our convictions and the future has been
>> delivered into our hands.  Business as usual has been given notice
>> this day, and there is hope we shall be delivered from the powers over
>> us should we have the courage to change such that the great vision of
>> the future of humanity is realized.
>>
>> Indeed Obama may be tempered by the responsibilities of office, as
>> every president in my lifetime has failed to have the power in
>> practice, to deliver what they promised in principle.  But should not
>> be tempered in our resolve that the future of humanity and freedom not
>> be compromised.  Our mandate is the greatest power.  The future is in
>> our hands.
>>
>> Jim
>> http://MonetaryReformAct.org
>>
>>> Lan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Jim Whitescarver
>>> To: Cosmology Math and Phil ; quantumrelativity ; infophysics at yahoogroups.com ; quacksanonymous ; theoryofeverything ; monetary reform ; FixGov at yahoogroups.com ; Discussion Forum for Global Justice
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 9:02 AM
>>> Subject: [quantumrelativity] change, vision, hope
>>>
>>> It is a historic day of change with hope that the vision that the
>>> people's interest, rather than the special interests, might be
>>> immanent in America.
>>>
>>> Scientism posits that change is random. In truth evolution is
>>> inevitable but it is not random. In truth anything might happen but
>>> not without cause.
>>>
>>> It is now 140 minutes before change says the TV.
>>>
>>> There is hope a campaign taken to the people empowered them to
>>> overpower the powers that rule the world, the bankers, the military
>>> industrial complex, secrete societies, Wall Street, the political
>>> machine and the media owned and controlled by the money masters who
>>> have been granted control of our economy. There is hope that the
>>> people will take back the power of money from the money masters in the
>>> spirit of Franklyn, Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, Eisenhower, Kennedy,
>>> Gandhi, King and Milton Friedman.
>>>
>>> We are led to expect change on day one and day one has arrived.
>>>
>>> History proves that whoever goes against the money interests will be
>>> discredited or assassinated, we have hope he will survive this day.
>>>
>>> It is naive to think power can be taken from the special interests or
>>> that the people have the wisdom to rule any better? Perhaps, but the
>>> possibility for change is real, and can be should we exhibit the will
>>> for real change.
>>>
>>> Will he announce today the reclamation of control of the money supply
>>> by the people to be invested responsibly to create value for futurity
>>> rather than debt? There is hope the capital value of the planet earth
>>> be employed for our common benefit rather than the benefit of an elite
>>> few. Should he not declare war on the secrete societies today there
>>> is still hope he will reveal his cards at the end of the game with our
>>> power in hand.
>>>
>>> Every eyes is watching. It is time for change.
>>>
>>> We have hope that the meek will inherit the earth and there will be a
>>> thousand years of peace and prosperity.
>>>
>>> Let it be.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>> http://MonetaryReformAct.org
>>
>


From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 22 01:27:53 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 13:57:53 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] Precursor Engineering with multiplication of
	carbon-neutral leisure and prayer 5 times a day
In-Reply-To: <410758.64389.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <612386.13526.qm@web94909.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Dear Robert and all,
?
Greetings for peace,
?
Socially inequitble and unjust ,morally abonimable practice of charging usury on the loans that we give is prohibited and binary economists?consider this not necessary. Creation of usurious money is ecologically hostile as it is leading to expansion of ecologically hostile habitats. Energy use reduction is possible with the adoption of key inter-text commons for prayer and meditation, carbon neutral enighbourhood engagements.?Using energy for morally abominable purposes is ecologically hostile?.Even so, ?I look forward to success of efforts for replacing fossil fuels. Bio-fuel production is linked with food insecurity. Therefore , we need to focus on measures for reducing the consumption of energy in the cities and villages. Mary has communicated on the efforts for creation of ecologically sustainable habitats that was available with us in most of cities that were small and sustainable in the last century..till energy-intensive skyscrapers became
 model for some and sign for 'development'. Revaluing ecologically sustainable agriculture is critical for 'citizen' as for villagers it continues to a means of sustainable livelihood. I am hoping to work on the fish ponds and agriculture in my village while?communicating for the adoption of ecologically safe and socially cohesive?measures?cosnidering the potential threats to ecologically hostile non-renwable resource based urban habitats.
?
Globalisation of austerity, elimination of usury, localisation?of food security measures ,adoption of prayer 5 times a day with search for replacement of GHG emissting fossil fuels need to go together.
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam
http://muhammad_mukhtar_alam.tigblog.org


--- On Wed, 21/1/09, robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert searle <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [GJM] Precursor Engineering
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
Date: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009, 3:58 PM








--- On Tue, 20/1/09, The Orion Project <info at theorionproject.org> wrote:

From: The Orion Project <info at theorionproject.org>
Subject: Precursor Engineering
To: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Tuesday, 20 January, 2009, 8:25 PM


 








Precursor Engineering 
As noted in our October 14 Newsletter last year, retired Col. Thomas Bearden has described some of the physics mechanisms that will allow the extraction of energy from the vacuum. Recently he has written an easy-to-read briefing entitled ?Precursor Engineering and the Falsification of Modern Physics? which describes some history of energy physics and why energy science is at a stalemate today. It makes for very interesting reading and provides a clue as to why our energy sector is in such a mess and how we may get out of the dilemma. Below are a few of the far-reaching ideas and scientific references Bearden presents to get you intrigued. Please see the original article to understand more fully the implications of what he is telling us.
He suggests that nothing less than ?directly engineering physical reality at will.? is possible using the physicist Paul Dirac's concept of ?local vacuum tickling?.
How might this happen? Well, in the classical concept of the ?probabilities? vacuum, there are positive energy/positive probabilities of ever-higher energy interactions that ultimately result in the creation of every ?observable? in the universe. Basically, the observable universe is ?continually being created and ?happening' at an incredible rate? by these positive energy/positive probabilities.

Now, what if there was a way to produce some sort of negative energy/negative probabilities (negative E)? 
Dirac describes the removal of the negative energy from physics: ?One gets over the difficulty on the classical theory by arbitrarily excluding those solutions that have a negative E. One cannot do this in the quantum theory, since in general a perturbation will cause transitions from states with E positive to states with E negative." [Dirac, Proc. of the Royal Society A, Vol. 117, p. 610]. Here he suggests that tiny perturbations will produce negative energy in the affected region of the vacuum. In other words, tiny-energy sharp-gradient pulses will add ?negative probabilities? into a specific region so that highest ?positive probabilities? that create and hold together a physical structure start to ?unhappen?. 
For example, if the correct sharp-gradient pulse were applied to water, the OH-bond positive-probability that holds water together would start to ?unhappen? and the water molecules would just come apart as their OH bonds start to vanish statistically. 
As our aware readers of The Orion Project may quickly realize, this suggests a powerful tool in the breaking apart of water to produce a combustible mixture of H and O or hydroxy (Brown's) gas. This is what might have been done by Stan Meyer, Dr. John Kanzius and other researchers, who used various pulsed electromagnetic energies to break apart water. They probably did this without an understanding of this potential mechanism. This mechanism of negative energy ?unhappening?, as Bearden describes it, can also be used in the ?unhappening? of some diseases, another area of present research. 
Finally, it is interesting to note that the concepts of ?negative energy occur in the Schr?dinger equation and in Dirac's relativistic electron theory, and so there it is in the very foundations of physics.? Yet during the 1930's some physicists, afraid of the implications of this negative energy, removed as much of this knowledge as possible from classical physics. As noted by Hotson, "I think if one had to point to a single place where science went profoundly and permanently off the track, it would be 1934 and the emasculation of Dirac's equation." [D. L. Hotson, "Dirac's Equation and the Sea of Negative Energy," Part I, New Energy, Issue 43, 2002, pp. 1-20. Quote is from p. 1.] 
Bearden calls the application of these processes ?precursor engineering, since one is directly engineering the ongoing creative bubble-set of an observable entity, by not only "happening" the statistical processes involved in it but also by selectively "unhappening" the entire set or selected parts of it.? 
The ultimate application of such technology will allow ?humankind to enter into the ?final physics? and allow direct engineering of physical reality itself?, hopefully for the overall betterment of mankind. At least as a start, we at The Orion Project and others can use some of these concepts to change our energy paradigm.










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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 23 03:21:06 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:21:06 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Global MindShift@Google: Video Now Available
In-Reply-To: <18357333.1232672529377.JavaMail.SYSTEM@HALEMAUMAU>
Message-ID: <88862.7591.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Fri, 23/1/09, Global MindShift <gmsadmin at global-mindshift.org> wrote:

From: Global MindShift <gmsadmin at global-mindshift.org>
Subject: Global MindShift at Google: Video Now Available
To: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Friday, 23 January, 2009, 1:01 AM











 
? 
Dear Global MindShift Community,


Our Google Tech Talk is now available for viewing! 
 

?As most of you know, last November Global MindShift made a presentation at Google on "How technology can help accelerate the shift to a global consciousness." Our presentation was followed by a discussion with Dr. Vint Cerf, Google Vice President and Chief Internet Evangelist; Dr. Larry Brilliant, Executive Director of Google.org; and Richard Rathbun, Chairman and CEO of the Foundation for Global Community (and Global MindShift board member). 
You can now view the video on our blog , or on our YouTube channel.? In either case, please be sure to leave comments. We want to know what you think, and if you have ideas for how this talk can be further leveraged. 
Thank you! 
Sincerely, 
 
? 

Kern Beare 
Executive Director


 
? 
? 
Sharon King 
Welcome Ambassador





?
And a special "thank you" to Global MindShift volunteer Bill Miller, 
who edited our Google Talk video. 

? 



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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 23 03:22:14 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:22:14 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
In-Reply-To: <011e01c97d40$1bfe7650$fd82c67c@HomePC>
Message-ID: <756268.15696.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Fri, 23/1/09, William Hugh McGunnigle <wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz> wrote:

From: William Hugh McGunnigle <wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Friday, 23 January, 2009, 9:51 AM



#yiv1500606415 .hmmessage P {
PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;}
#yiv1500606415 {
FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Verdana;}


HI Joe.
??????? ?Actually I believe that you have had a definite influence on him because he expresses views to me that indicate that he considers price adjustment to be an integral part of any SC reform measures we should implement. I personally feel the same way but again don't have a concrete proposal to implement the measure as yet without it appearing rather unworkable to the ordinary "man in the street"
?? Bill MC Gunnigle

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Joe Thomson 
To: socialcredit at elistas.com 
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"


Hi Bill (McGunnigle),
?
John Rawson and?I have had many "a word" on the Compensated Price Discount, Bill.? Both on this List and off.? I haven't? been able to convince him of its workability.? Yet.? Or how it might be presented simply to a sceptical electorate.? Though I think that latter might be a lot easier to do than to try and explain some of the NZ Democrats current policies, if anyone asked about their likely effect on 'prices'.? 
?
As far as the electorate goes, it seems all the remaining "Social Credit" Parties are unable to make much headway on their current course.? I think that if I were trying to proceed that way, I'd seriously consider a drastic change of strategy.? 
?
If your Democrats are like our remaining BC Socreds, and those in Alberta, too, continuing to try to elect people to a parliament or legislature is currently an exercise in futility.?
?
?Neither of the Canadian parties could even attract a full slate of candidates in their respective last Provincial elections.? 
?
Even if they did ever manage to elect a member or two, they'd still really be nothing more than a background noise in the overall course of events.? Might be better to 'narrow the focus' onto a few key Social Credit issues and use your existing Party apparatus more like a 'lobby group'.? But what do?I know, not being much of a political animal myself?
?
Regards,
Joe? 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: William Hugh McGunnigle 
To: socialcredit at elistas.com 
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"


Hi JOE
???????? HAVE A WORD? with JOHN Rawson JOE he will have a very good idea about that. I know that both he and I are advocates of that policy as a matter of course, but, as yet, we are still working on getting it accepted as full scale policy. It has got supporters in the NZ SC political arena. We feel it is one of the few avenues that would make sense to the generally financially unaware NZ general population,who, at present, still blindly follow the ridiculous assurances of our two main political Parties, and their associates. Our present Prime minister is a self made millionaire who made hjis money by currency speculation. Not a very helpful scenario for those of us who want monetary reform. We have a prime minister who made his fortune by gambling on the stock exchange. Men like that dont want angy change in the present corrupt financial system where they can "make millions" simply by trading in currency exchanges and strock market
 fluctuations. Indeed I believe that such speculators are ablew to do so only by insider trading. The present prime minisater under the previous goverrnment, as leader of the opposition, held a large num,ber of shares in NZ railways which were rapidly going under until a government bailout to repair all the deferred maintenance under private ownwersahip. THe shares he owned rspidly revalued overnight. I feel sure he used his knowledge of government intentions about the railways to "make a Killing" on the share prices. Of course anyone suggesting that the PM elect would stoop to such a trick casts grave doubt on his integrity, and, of course,?attracts intense critism from government circles and the press. but to supporters of parties other than the two main ones the idea is quite acceptable. Personally my experience of those two parties is very sceptical having fought some seven campaigns agsinst the establishment machined, and seen what appears to be
 definite "gerrymandering " of electoral boundaries in favour of the two major political parties in the electoral seats, who have managed to establish themselves representatives on the electoral commission boundaries revision committee. The only two political parties having such positions. This gives them an unprecedented influence on electoral boundaries, and certainly one that appears to work against other politrical parties when boundaries are revised. I can relate several other incidents where the major political parties have used their own control of government expenditure to further their own political agendas at election time, seemingly getting around the limitations on party political spending for elections according to the electoral committeee on spendig at elections. While this is OK for the two major political parties, minor parties get hammered if there is even the slightest discrepancy. Talk about hints od corruption, but I suppose you have
 similar incidents in your elections too so I am not talkinh about something that is particyuilarly scandelous by international standards, which are very poor on the whole, especially when some governments have got provable criminal connections.
?regards
?????????????????? BIll Mc Gunnigle

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Joe Thomson 
To: socialcredit at elistas.com 
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"


Has anyone in New Zealand "Social Credit" political party circles ever campaigned for office promoting the concept of a Compensated Price Discount for consumers?? 
?
Regards,
Joe

----- Original Message ----- 
?
?
From: John G Rawson 
To: Socred elistas 
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 6:19 PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"

Thanks Martin.? That's the same answer I usually get.
But I want someone to show me how competition would work in a sellers' market.
We have seen all sorts of booms and bubbles on the rare occasions when people get enough money to buy houses etc. And have a look at prices in tourist destinations. Usually plenty of competition there too, but the prices are always higher than down the road a bit. Why should goods be different? And also, why use of the term "just price", if nobody is going to determine what just prices are? There has to be some reasoning behind that term that is relevant, but when I enquire I get a definition of justness of price(s), not any mechanism to achieve it.
I'm really scared of this one, and always have been, because I would be unable to defend it against someone making the sort of objections I am raising now. And often we have to be caught out on one point only and people then think the whole fabric is rubbish.
Regards.

John R.



> From: jmartinh at shaw.ca
> To: socialcredit at elistas.com
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:18:21 -0700
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
> 
> I have always regarded the "Just Price" concept as being a percentage 
> discount from the price that would otherwise be charged to the consumer, as 
> businesses often do today. the difference being that the discount would be 
> paid by new credit issued from a National Credit Office, in accordance with 
> the needs of the economy, in order to balance financial demand for products 
> with available supply. It would be calculated on a macroeconomic basis, and 
> would not have to contain any element of price control of individual 
> products.
> 
> I see no difficulty in adapting existing sales tax mechanisms to reverse 
> themselves and pay such a discount - certainly likely to be a very popular 
> move.
> 
> The normal processes of competition should serve to prevent profiteering by 
> any particular business.
> 
> Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St.,
> EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
> Phone & Fax (780) 483-5442
> e-mail <jmartinh at shaw.ca>
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John G Rawson" <johngrawson at hotmail.com>
> To: "Socred elistas" <socialcredit at elistas.com>
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 12:46 PM
> Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
> 
> 
> 
> This discussion is purely with the mechanism of paying it, for which I see 
> no problems and several solutions, but:Martin uses the term "just price" 
> which implies conmditions for its payment, i.e. a means of containing price 
> inflation. How do we establish "just prices" for a multitude's multitude of 
> items, each in different parts of a country each with different transport 
> costs, local taxes, etc?
> Others insist that it shall be a discount of a certain percentage of the 
> price, whatever it is. Which, to me, in the sellers market that SC would 
> establish, would lay the situation completely open to profiteering.
> A bureaucratic nightmare to beat all socialist efforts anywhere, or 
> uncontrolled inflation?
> If someone can answer these points, I too will faour the system. But I've 
> been asking for these answers for decades now.
> John R.> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 07:07:10 -0800> From: 
> william_b_ryan at yahoo.com> To: socialcredit at elistas.com> Subject: Re: 
> [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"> > It would be 
> equivalent to a "Goods and Services Tax" in reverse, but I would be 
> reluctant to accept a commingling of the tax and dividend systems. Too much 
> of an incentive to increase the tax rate to offset the dividend due the 
> people.> > At the very least money created by the Mint would need the 
> cooperation of the banks. During and after the Civil War, the banks refused 
> to accept deposits of Greenbacks, which greatly limited their acceptability. 
> The banks achieved complete victory with the passage of the Specie 
> Resumption Act, which mandated that the Greenbacks be redeemed by the 
> government in gold. This greatly enriched the speculators who had amassed 
> Greenbacks at steep discount.> > Legal tender status is not sufficient to 
> guarantee acceptability. The Greenbacks had legal tender status that was 
> eventually approved by the Supreme Court. Legal tender status did not 
> require the banks to accept them for deposit. It only required that 
> creditors accept them in payment for debt. But Alberta didn't even have the 
> legal authority to convey legal tender status to its notes.> > All money is 
> debt by its creator to its bearer. That will always be the case. It is a 
> subset of the more general concept of contract for future performance, which 
> fits very well with Douglas' "ticket" metaphor. See the Innes papers at > 
> http://www.geocities.com/new_economics/innes/> > > > > --- On Sun, 11/30/08, 
> Martin Hattersley <jmartinh at shaw.ca> wrote:> > Yes, I'm certainly in favour 
> of a "Just Price", which in Canada could easily be achieved through making 
> our "Goods and Services Tax" mechanism go into reverse as a subsidy on 
> prices, so introducing money into the economy in a way that actually 
> reverses inflation, that money being created by the Mint rather than the 
> banking system. > > The one essential thing we have to do is to create our 
> money supply without creating debt at the same time, and there's certainly 
> no sense in spending money on infrastructure (or wars) if what we get from 
> it all isn't anything we need. > > Martin Hattersley> > > 
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------> 
> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at> 
> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium> You're subscribed to this list 
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 23 03:27:03 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:27:03 GMT
Subject: [GJM] [BBC] More on the Banking Crisis
Message-ID: <200901231027.n0NAR339017646@cgiperl13.thdo.bbc.co.uk>

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/inbusiness/inbusiness.shtml

This may be of interest. It is from in business the radio four
programme.

R.Searle





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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 23 03:33:39 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:33:39 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] The Money System is a Confidence Trick
In-Reply-To: <76e6e1510901211753yc6996a9tf3879b20e2a65003@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <103660.93271.qm@web27405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Thu, 22/1/09, Arian F. Nevin <afnafn at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Arian F. Nevin <afnafn at gmail.com>
Subject: [socialcredit] The Money System is a Confidence Trick
To: "Bob Taft" <rbtaft at rtconnect.net>
Cc: "Richard Ford" <watchman at wildblue.net>, "Gary Reil" <areilamerican at webtv.net>, "helge nome" <helgenome at hotmail.com>, "social credit" <socialcredit at elistas.com>, "charles Stewart" <charles at constitutionalgov.us>
Date: Thursday, 22 January, 2009, 1:53 AM

(NaturalNews) Banks loan us money they create out of nothing. Not only
is this a scam, but it is outlawed by the Constitution, although our
government allows this criminal activity. This activity is at the
heart of our unsound money system, which is the direct cause of our
nation`s current economic collapse. To reverse our economic decline we
must have a sound and constitutional money system.

"I thought that, as a scientific man, I ought to know something about
economics. So I studied the money system for two years and could make
nothing of it. Then, one day, the truth dawned on me. What I was
studying was not a system, but a confidence trick." The conclusion
that the money system is a confidence trick comes from "the father of
nuclear fission" Nobel Prize winning chemist Frederick Soddy.

A confidence trick is a scam, a racket, a rip off, a con. What makes
the money system a confidence trick? Put most simply, money is created
for private profit by banks rather than created for the common good by
the government. Only the government of a nation should create money.
The confidence trick that is the money system takes two forms.

First, rather than simply print money, the government, when it wants
more money than it has obtained through taxation, issues bonds. The
Federal Reserve then creates new money that did not exist before and
uses this money to purchase the bonds. Then the populace, through
taxation, is forced to pay the interest on these bonds. This is how
the National Debt was created. Rather than impoverishing the populace
by forcing them to pay interest on bonds, the government could simply
create money instead of having the Federal Reserve create money to
purchase government issued bonds.

Second, banks devised a subtle way to counterfeit money. Banks
invented a separate and distinct form of money other than cash. Banks
invented a kind of money which exists solely as entries in their
computers. Over 99% of money exists in this form. Anytime a check,
credit card, debit card, or money order is used, electronic bank money
is being used. Whenever someone gets a loan from a bank the bank is in
fact creating entirely new electronic money that did not exist before.
Through this subtle form of counterfeiting banks have been able to
take control of the money system. This confidence trick is played not
only by US banks but by all banks the world over. The money system is
the world`s longest running and most successful confidence trick.

Not only is allowing banks to create money and charge us interest a
confidence trick, but it is also illegal! The Constitution explicitly
gives the power to create money to Congress and to Congress alone. It
does not authorize Congress to allow private corporations to create
money. Article I, Section 8, Part 5 of the Constitution of the United
States gives Congress the power, "To coin money, regulate the value
thereof, and of foreign coin." The Constitution is the highest law in
the United States of America. No law passed by Congress can override
the Constitution. It is illegal for banks to create money, and it is
illegal for Congress to allow banks to create money. The only way
banks could legally create money would be if an amendment to the
Constitution authorizing money creation by banks were passed. There is
no such amendment. Sadly the Constitution is not a self-enforcing
document, and if the people do not force the government to follow its
dictates the government is free to ignore the law without consequence.

President Garfield stated, "He who controls the money supply of a
nation controls the nation." Is it any wonder that against the will of
the great majority of Americans the banks and Wall Street were able to
get the bailout bill passed? The so-called bailout was nothing other
than a massive transfer of purchasing power from the people to the
banks and the acquisition of worthless debt and stock by the
government at high prices from the banks. Banks were able to force
this bill through because of the enormous power they wield from
controlling the money system. The Secretary of the Treasury, Henry
Paulson, is a banker. He is the former CEO of Goldman Sachs, and he
conducts government policy in accord with the interests of banks and
not of the American people.

The truth of the monetary system has long been withheld from the
American people. We have been kept in the dark by the twin
commandments put into effect through the influence and power of banks:
we shall not have an honest money system, and we shall not examine the
money system except under their direction. An honest, constitutional
money system is the one thing banks will not stand for. The workings
of the money system and the economy are always discussed in mysterious
terms. People feel that it is something too complicated for them to
understand. In fact, only falsehoods and false principles need to be
discussed in mysterious terms. Any person of average intelligence can
understand how the money system works. However, banks do everything in
their power to keep people from understanding how the money system
works, because if the majority of Americans ever did understand, then
there would soon be a great call for the abolition of the unsound and
dishonest monetary system and a call for its replacement with an
honest and constitutional one.

Never on television, radio, in newspapers, or in magazines is the
truth of the money system discussed. The people are to be kept in the
dark and ignorant. Only on the internet and in a few books is the
truth of the monetary system discussed. Those who literally create
money can certainly afford to direct the discourse regarding the money
system in a direction favorable to their interests. Economists
prophesize nothing but economic doom and gloom for us upon the
horizon. This is true so long as we have a dishonest money system. As
soon as it is replaced with an honest money system the way will be
open to much greater prosperity than ever before.

The worldwide economic crisis we face today is caused directly by the
dishonest and unsound money system. There can be no liberty without
economic freedom. There can be no economic freedom without an honest
money system. The people must demand an honest money system. We must
put such pressure on the government that they have no alternative but
to execute the will of the people. Either we continue to pay billions
and trillions yearly to be kept artificially poor or we demand honest
US constitutional money. The choice is clear.


About the author
Arian Forrest Nevin, J.D. is the author of National Economy: The Way
to Abundance. National Economy presents an immediate solution the
worldwide economic crisis. National Economy is the study of how a
nation, rather than an individual, can be made wealthy. It explains
how all manufacturing that has moved to other countries and all jobs
that have been outsourced can be returned to America, how real wages
can be dramatically increased, and how, at the same time, the people
can have more leisure.
His website is http://www.nationaleconomy.net

http://www.naturalnews.com/025358.html
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 23 03:50:36 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:50:36 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Re: The Money System is a Confidence
	Trick...Hogwash steps in!!
In-Reply-To: <COL113-W38DFFE9FA54EF67018CF73A5CE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <299805.34082.qm@web27404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Thu, 22/1/09, helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Re: The Money System is a Confidence Trick
To: "Socialcreditlist" <socialcredit at elistas.com>
Date: Thursday, 22 January, 2009, 10:19 PM




#yiv1670777373 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv1670777373 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

?With regard to Paulson's tenure at Goldman Sachs, is it a coincidence that the current Governor of the Bank of Canada, Mark J. Carney, spent 13 years at Goldman Sachs in London, Tokyo, New York and Toronto?
You may need above average intelligence to understand how the money system works.
But you don't need a lot of intelligence to smell the motives of those that operate it.
Regards,
Helge


> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 21:21:26 -0800
> From: p_t_hogwood at yahoo.com
> To: socialcredit at elistas.com
> Subject: [socialcredit] Re: The Money System is a Confidence Trick
> 
> Mr. Nevin, some questions about your post:
> 
> "The Federal Reserve then creates new money that did not exist before and uses this money to purchase the bonds."
> -----------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> Did you not know that most of the bonds are NOT purchased by the Federal Reserve? The Fed does purchase some of them, but not nearly so many as before. Today, the so-called "open market" operations mostly consist of the Fed buying and selling "repos" which are securities created by the banks themselves.
> -
> 
> Then the populace, through taxation, is forced to pay the interest on these bonds.
> -----------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> Did you not know that the Federal Reserve rebates its profit to the United States Government?
> -
> 
> "Second, banks devised a subtle way to counterfeit money."
> -----------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> You are a lawyer. Certainly you are not using the word "counterfeit" in the sense that the word is defined in law dictionaries. Counterfeiting is the FORGING of documents in the name of someone else. Banks loan and spend their own promises to pay in the form of their deposit liabilities. In no sense can that be construed as counterfeiting.
> -
> 
> Article I, Section 8, Part 5 of the Constitution of the United States gives Congress the power, "To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin."
> -----------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> Please note that it does not give Congress the *exclusive* right. Nor does it prohibit the tendering of your promissory note. Bank deposits which they spend and loan into existence are effectively their promissory notes, in the form of their deposit liabilities. We call these liabilities *money* because most transactions are accomplished through the transfer of these liabilities.
> -
> 
> It is illegal for banks to create money, and it is illegal for Congress to allow banks to create money. The only way banks could legally create money would be if an amendment to the Constitution authorizing money creation by banks were passed. There is no such amendment.
> -----------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> A rather crank argument for a lawyer to make.
> -
> 
> He is the former CEO of Goldman Sachs, and he conducts government policy in accord with the interests of banks and not of the American people. 
> -----------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> Certainly Paulson looks at the matter from a banker's perspective, but this is a rather reckless charge to make.
> -
> 
> Any person of average intelligence can understand how the money system works.
> -----------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> I think that may be true, but I don't mean to demean your intelligence when I say that you do not appear to understand it.
> - 
> 
> Peter Hogwood
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
> You're subscribed to this list with the email helgenome at hotmail.com
> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit




---------------------------------------------------------------------
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 23 04:00:22 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 11:00:22 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] News story from mirror.co.uk
Message-ID: <14851839.1232708422919.JavaMail.apache@tmgweb16>


This email has been sent to you by Robert Searle
Maybe of interest.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/01/23/bank-greed-30million-pensions-scandal-of-bailed-out-bosses-115875-21062479/

If you would like to receive emails with more stories like this, register for our email newsletter at http://www.mirror.co.uk/register


From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 23 04:18:44 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 11:18:44 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Re: The Money System is a Confidence Trick
In-Reply-To: <COL113-W38DFFE9FA54EF67018CF73A5CE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <353710.2150.qm@web27406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

? Dear All,
?
????????????? More on Mr Nevins "errors" ................ Maybe Chris Cook might like to comment on?the claims?by Peter Hogwash?? Or maybe not!!
?
The big problem with this subject is its complexity, and use of language. I once bought form a charity shop a book on Credit Deriviatives, and I think trying to understand a graduate textbook on Nuclear Physics would have been far easier to comprehend!
?
Robert Searle
?


--- On Thu, 22/1/09, helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: helge nome <helgenome at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Re: The Money System is a Confidence Trick
To: "Socialcreditlist" <socialcredit at elistas.com>
Date: Thursday, 22 January, 2009, 10:19 PM




#yiv807035236 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv807035236 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

?With regard to Paulson's tenure at Goldman Sachs, is it a coincidence that the current Governor of the Bank of Canada, Mark J. Carney, spent 13 years at Goldman Sachs in London, Tokyo, New York and Toronto?
You may need above average intelligence to understand how the money system works.
But you don't need a lot of intelligence to smell the motives of those that operate it.
Regards,
Helge


> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 21:21:26 -0800
> From: p_t_hogwood at yahoo.com
> To: socialcredit at elistas.com
> Subject: [socialcredit] Re: The Money System is a Confidence Trick
> 
> Mr. Nevin, some questions about your post:
> 
> "The Federal Reserve then creates new money that did not exist before and uses this money to purchase the bonds."
> -----------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> Did you not know that most of the bonds are NOT purchased by the Federal Reserve? The Fed does purchase some of them, but not nearly so many as before. Today, the so-called "open market" operations mostly consist of the Fed buying and selling "repos" which are securities created by the banks themselves.
> -
> 
> Then the populace, through taxation, is forced to pay the interest on these bonds.
> -----------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> Did you not know that the Federal Reserve rebates its profit to the United States Government?
> -
> 
> "Second, banks devised a subtle way to counterfeit money."
> -----------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> You are a lawyer. Certainly you are not using the word "counterfeit" in the sense that the word is defined in law dictionaries. Counterfeiting is the FORGING of documents in the name of someone else. Banks loan and spend their own promises to pay in the form of their deposit liabilities. In no sense can that be construed as counterfeiting.
> -
> 
> Article I, Section 8, Part 5 of the Constitution of the United States gives Congress the power, "To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin."
> -----------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> Please note that it does not give Congress the *exclusive* right. Nor does it prohibit the tendering of your promissory note. Bank deposits which they spend and loan into existence are effectively their promissory notes, in the form of their deposit liabilities. We call these liabilities *money* because most transactions are accomplished through the transfer of these liabilities.
> -
> 
> It is illegal for banks to create money, and it is illegal for Congress to allow banks to create money. The only way banks could legally create money would be if an amendment to the Constitution authorizing money creation by banks were passed. There is no such amendment.
> -----------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> A rather crank argument for a lawyer to make.
> -
> 
> He is the former CEO of Goldman Sachs, and he conducts government policy in accord with the interests of banks and not of the American people. 
> -----------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> Certainly Paulson looks at the matter from a banker's perspective, but this is a rather reckless charge to make.
> -
> 
> Any person of average intelligence can understand how the money system works.
> -----------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> I think that may be true, but I don't mean to demean your intelligence when I say that you do not appear to understand it.
> - 
> 
> Peter Hogwood
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
> You're subscribed to this list with the email helgenome at hotmail.com
> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit




---------------------------------------------------------------------
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From maryrose333 at att.net  Fri Jan 23 13:31:40 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 12:31:40 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: On TRANSITION UNITED STATES: [USCO] UPCOMING TRANSITION
	TUTORIALS
Message-ID: <000301c97d99$9d292f00$d77b8d00$@net>



-----Original Message-----
From: TRANSITION UNITED STATES [mailto:mail at transitionus.ning.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 11:17 AM
To: maryrose333 at att.net
Subject: On TRANSITION UNITED STATES: [USCO] UPCOMING TRANSITION TUTORIALS

A message to all members of TRANSITION UNITED STATES

G'Day and G'2009

Here is the link to improved communications among our communities:
http://transitionus.ning.com/forum/topics/skype-and-transition-social

* You've been wondering how to conduct great meetings within your community or around your state when localities are so distant from each other.

* You've been asking for orientation how best to use our social networking sites....

* You're an administrator on one of our states or country sites, wondering how to lay out and promote your site....

* You're a member of an initiating group and wish you didn't have to spend time and gas to travel to meetings....

* You're a trainer or speaker, dreaming about appearing in 24 locations, each with 50 people, without travel....

The Skype User Group is hosting tutorials on how to use your computer as a telephone and create no-charge conference calls and "radio broadcasts" with Transitioners anywhere in the world. Use the page linked above to receive instruction, learn the requirements, review the schedule and get involved. 

Today: 8:00-9:30p.m.EST Eastern Timezone -- 22 January -- Skype -- Setting up groups/committees for no-travel meetings.

Let me know if you have questions.


Les Squires
http://transitionus.ning.com

Visit TRANSITION UNITED STATES at: http://transitionus.ning.com

--
To control which emails you receive on TRANSITION UNITED STATES, go to:
http://transitionus.ning.com/profiles/profile/emailSettings



From maryrose333 at att.net  Fri Jan 23 13:34:12 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 12:34:12 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] New signs of climate change:
	shifting seasons, warmer Antarctica
Message-ID: <000401c97d99$f6c71400$e4553c00$@net>



-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 3:48 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] New signs of climate change: shifting
seasons, warmer Antarctica


(To change your settings or unsubscribe please go to
http://lists.riseup.net/www/info/globalnetnews-summary)


New signs of climate change: shifting seasons, warmer Antarctica
By Robert Mitchum | Tribune staff reporter
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-climate-change-season-shift-web
22,0,531548.story

The news might seem welcome in the middle of a long, cold winter:
Scientists have shown that the start of spring has moved almost two days
earlier in the last 50 years.

But scientists say the finding, one of two papers released today on climate
change, is actually a warning sign. Together, the studies bolster the
argument that the planet's temperatures have shifted significantly in the
last half-century, with many of the potential consequences likely to be
negative.

Reporting in the scientific journal Nature, two teams of scientists
presented evidence that all seasons are occurring earlier worldwide and
that more of Antarctica is showing signs of warming than had been thought.

The seasonal study, from the University of California- Berkeley and Harvard
University, compared temperature data in regions around the world to the
distance between the sun and Earth at various points in time.

The information showed that warming temperatures associated with spring, as
well as autumnal cooling, have moved forward by 1.7 days from 1954 to 2007.
Such a shift is not seen anywhere else in temperature records stretching
back to the 19th Century, and much of the change appears to have occurred
since 1981, said the lead author, Berkeley graduate student Alexander
Stine.

"Really, the last 27 years stand out as being different from anywhere
previous in the record," Stine said.

The other report, led by University of Washington climatologist Eric Steig,
addresses previous observations that only the northwestern peninsula of
Antarctica has shown significant warming over the last 40 years, while the
bulk of the continent appeared to be cooling.

Those measurements were fixed on by climate change skeptics who are
unconvinced that the planet is undergoing a universal warming trend.

But by adding satellite data to temperatures collected from weather
stations in Antarctica from 1957 to 2006, Steig's team found that a large
portion of western Antarctica has been warming at a rate of 0.17 degrees
Celsius per decade, roughly double the global warming rate in the last
century.

Steig cautioned that the limitations of the data make it hard to predict
future temperature changes in the region. But if warming is occurring
across a wider area than previously observed, that could increase the
possibility of large ice shelves melting off the continent and changing sea
levels around the world.

"This study showing warming means we can't be complacent about thinking the
West Antarctica ice sheet is invulnerable," Steig said. "It will eventually
melt if warming like this continues."



From maryrose333 at att.net  Fri Jan 23 14:32:15 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 13:32:15 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] Half Of World's Population Could
	Face Climate-induced Food Crisis By 2100
Message-ID: <000e01c97da2$12872330$37956990$@net>

Questions:  Could a human induced cloud cover mitigate some of the negative
effects of global climate change? 

            And is such an endeavor now on-going conducted by Black Ops in
the U.S.?                  


-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 7:13 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] Half Of World's Population Could Face
Climate-induced Food Crisis By 2100


(To change your settings or unsubscribe please go to
http://lists.riseup.net/www/info/globalnetnews-summary)

Half Of World's Population Could Face Climate-induced Food Crisis By 2100
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090108144745.htm

ScienceDaily (Jan. 9, 2009) - Rapidly warming climate is likely to
seriously alter crop yields in the tropics and subtropics by the end of
this century and, without adaptation, will leave half the world's
population facing serious food shortages, new research shows.

To compound matters, the population of this equatorial belt - from about
35 degrees north latitude to 35 degrees south latitude - is among the
poorest on Earth and is growing faster than anywhere else.

"The stresses on global food production from temperature alone are going to
be huge, and that doesn't take into account water supplies stressed by the
higher temperatures," said David Battisti, a University of Washington
atmospheric sciences professor.

Battisti is lead author of the study in the Jan. 9 edition of Science. He
collaborated with Rosamond Naylor, director of Stanford University's
Program on Food Security and the Environment, to examine the impact of
climate change on the world's food security.

"This is a compelling reason for us to invest in adaptation, because it is
clear that this is the direction we are going in terms of temperature and
it will take decades to develop new food crop varieties that can better
withstand a warmer climate," Naylor said.

"We are taking the worst of what we've seen historically and saying that in
the future it is going to be a lot worse unless there is some kind of
adaptation."

By combining direct observations with data from 23 global climate models
that contributed to Nobel prize-winning research in 2007, Battisti and
Naylor determined there is greater than a 90 percent probability that by
2100 the lowest growing-season temperatures in the tropics and subtropics
will be higher than any temperatures recorded there to date.

They used the data as a filter to view historic instances of severe food
insecurity, and concluded such instances are likely to become more
commonplace. Those include severe episodes in France in 2003 and the
Ukraine in 1972. In the case of the Ukraine, a near-record heat wave
reduced wheat yields and contributed to disruptions in the global cereal
market that lasted two years.

"I think what startled me the most is that when we looked at our historic
examples there were ways to address the problem within a given year. People
could always turn somewhere else to find food," Naylor said. "But in the
future there's not going to be any place to turn unless we rethink our food
supplies."

The serious climate issues won't be limited to the tropics, the scientists
conclude. As an example, they cite record temperatures that struck Western
Europe in June, July and August of 2003, killing an estimated 52,000
people. The summer-long heat wave in France and Italy cut wheat yields and
fodder production by one-third. In France alone, temperatures were nearly
6.5 degrees Fahrenheit above the long-term mean, and the scientists say
such temperatures could be normal for France by 2100.

In the tropics, the higher temperatures can be expected to cut yields of
the primary food crops, maize and rice, by 20 to 40 percent, the
researchers said. But rising temperatures also are likely to play havoc
with soil moisture, cutting yields even further.

"We have to be rethinking agriculture systems as a whole, not only thinking
about new varieties but also recognizing that many people will just move
out of agriculture, and even move from the lands where they live now,"
Naylor said.

Currently 3 billion people live in the tropics and subtropics, and their
number is expected to nearly double by the end of the century. The area
stretches from the southern United States to northern Argentina and
southern Brazil, from northern India and southern China to southern
Australia and all of Africa.

The scientists said that many who now live in these areas subsist on less
than $2 a day and depend largely on agriculture for their livelihoods.

"When all the signs point in the same direction, and in this case it's a
bad direction, you pretty much know what's going to happen," Battisti said.
"You are talking about hundreds of millions of additional people looking
for food because they won't be able to find it where they find it now."

He said wheat makes up one-quarter of the calories consumed in India, but
growth in wheat yields there have been stagnant for the last decade.

Temperature increases from climate change are expected to be less in
equatorial regions than at higher latitudes, but because average
temperatures in the tropics today are much higher than at midlatitudes,
rising temperature will have a greater impact on crop yields in the
tropics.

Recent UW research has shown that even with much smaller temperature
increases in the tropics, the impacts of warmer climate will be greater
there because life in the tropics does not encounter much temperature
variation and so is less adaptable. That makes an even stronger case to
begin now searching for ways to deal with substantially warmer conditions,
Battisti said.

"You can let it happen and painfully adapt, or you can plan for it," he
said. "You also could mitigate it and not let it happen in the first place,
but we're not doing a very good job of that."

The National Science Foundation and the Tamaki Foundation funded the
research.




From maryrose333 at att.net  Fri Jan 23 14:32:15 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 13:32:15 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] Obama Should Worry About the Bush
	Family Tentacles Undermining His Plans
Message-ID: <000f01c97da2$159d8af0$40d8a0d0$@net>



-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 6:08 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] Obama Should Worry About the Bush Family
Tentacles Undermining His Plans


(To change your settings or unsubscribe please go to
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Obama Should Worry About the Bush Family Tentacles Undermining His Plans
http://www.alternet.org/story/121243/obama_should_worry_about_the_bush_famil
y_tentacles_undermining_his_plans/?page=entire
By Russ Baker, AlterNet. Posted January 22, 2009.

Bush may be gone, but his influence -- and the forces that put him in
office -- aren't. 

As George W. Bush leaves office and Barack Obama takes over, we are in
danger of missing the opportunity for change our new president has promised
-- unless we come to grips with what the great historian and Librarian of
Congress Daniel Boorstin called our "hidden history," not just of the past
eight years but of the past half-century and more. 

President Obama will face a staggering array of challenges, most, if not
all, of which stem from the policies of Bush. But efforts at reform will
fall short if we fail to probe and confront the powerful forces that wanted
this disastrous administration in the White House in the first place -- and
that remain ready and able to maintain their influence behind the scenes
today.

Like most people, I took the failings of George W. Bush at face value: an
inattentive, poorly prepared man full of hubris, who committed colossal
blunders as a result. Then I spent five years researching my new book,
Family of Secrets and came to see that the origins go much deeper. This
backstory is getting almost no attention in the talking-heads debate over
the Bush legacy. Yet it will continue to play, affecting our country and
our lives, long after Bush leaves office.

A more profound explanation for the rise of George W. Bush came as I
studied the concerted effort  to convince the public that he was
independent of, and often in disagreement with, his father. The reason for
this, it turned out, was that exactly the opposite was true. W. may have
been bumptious where his father was discreet, but in fact the son hewed
closely to a playbook that guided his father and even his grandfather.

Over much of the last century, the Bushes have been serving the aims of a
very narrow segment from within America's wealthiest interests and families
-- typically through involvement in the most anti-New Deal investment
banking circles, in the creation of a civilian intelligence service after
World War II, and in some of that service's most secretive and
still-unacknowledged operations.

Through declassified documents and interviews, I unearthed evidence that
George W. Bush's father, the 41st president of the United States, had been
working for the intelligence services no less than two decades before he
was named CIA director in 1976. Time and again, Bush 41 and his allies have
participated in clandestine operations to force presidents to do the
bidding of oil and other resource-extraction interests, military
contractors and financiers. Whenever a president showed  independence or
sought reforms that threatened entrenched interests, this group helped to
ensure that he was politically attacked and neutralized, or even removed
from office, through one means or another.

We are not dealing here with what are commonly dismissed as "conspiracy
theories."  We are dealing with a reality that is much more subtle, layered
and pervasive -- a matrix of power in which crude conspiracies are rarely
necessary and in which the execution or subsequent cover-up of
anti-democratic acts become practically a norm.

In 1953, 23 years before he became CIA director as a supposed neophyte,
George H.W. Bush began preparing to launch an oil-exploration company
called Zapata Offshore. His father, investment banker Prescott Bush, had
just taken a Senate seat from Connecticut; and his father's close friend
Allen Dulles had just taken over the CIA. A staff CIA officer, Thomas J.
Devine, purportedly "resigned" to go into the oil business with young
George.

Bush then began to travel around the world. His itineraries had little
apparent relationship to his limited and perennially unprofitable business
enterprises.  But they do make sense if the object was intelligence work.
When his company at last  put a few oil rigs in place, they ended up in
highly sensitive spots, such as just off Castro's Cuba before the Bay of
Pigs invasion.

As part of his travels, Bush senior even appeared in Dallas on the morning
of the Kennedy assassination, although he would famously claim that he
could not recall where he was at that historic moment. After leaving the
city, he called the FBI with a false tip about a possible assassin,
pointedly emphasizing that he was calling from outside Dallas. It is also
intriguing to learn that an old friend of Bush's, a White Russian
?migr? with intelligence connections, shepherded Lee Harvey Oswald upon
his return to America in the year preceding the assassination. In any
event, when Lyndon Johnson replaced Kennedy, the oilmen and the
intelligence-military establishment once again had a friend in the White
House.

The pattern continued. New evidence suggests that Bush senior and his
associates in the intelligence services, far from being the loyalists to
Richard Nixon they claimed to be, had turned on the 35th president early in
his administration, unceasingly working to weaken and eventually force him
out. These efforts culminated in what appears to have been a deliberately
botched Watergate office burglary -- led by former CIA officers.

Ironically, Nixon's career had been launched with the quiet backing of Wall
Street finance figures upset with the man Nixon would defeat, a leading
congressional supporter of banking reform, and Prescott Bush himself had
played a key role. Yet, when Nixon finally achieved the presidency, he
became surprisingly resistant to pressure from the very power centers that
had helped him get to the top. He turned a deaf ear to the demands of the
oil industry,  battled with the CIA and cut the Pentagon out of the loop as
he (and his aide Henry Kissinger) negotiated secretly with Moscow and
Beijing.

These acts estranged Nixon from those who felt he had betrayed his sponsors
-- men who had the means to do him in. Bush senior, it turns out, was
closely allied with the surprising number of White House officials with
covert ties to the intelligence service that surrounded Nixon. Through it
all, Bush senior would routinely claim to be "out of the loop," as he would
later pretend during the Iran-Contra scandal of the Reagan era, although we
know that as vice president he was at the center of that and other abuses
of power.

None of this let up after Nixon was forced to resign. His pliant successor,
Gerald Ford, brought in young staffers named Richard Cheney and Donald
Rumsfeld, and the two participated in the so-called Halloween massacre,
which saw the administration veer in a far-right direction on foreign
policy, a development that paved the way for the appointment of Bush senior
as CIA director. This happened just as Congress was launched into the
deepest investigation ever of intelligence abuses, and public voices were
clamoring to reopen official inquiries into the assassinations of John F.
Kennedy, his brother, Robert F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr.

Then came Jimmy Carter, whose plans to reform the CIA were an echo of JFK's
intent to scatter the CIA to the winds after the ruinous Bay of Pigs
invasion.  When Carter defeated Ford, ousted Bush from the CIA helm and
sought to bring the intelligence juggernaut under control, he ended up
deeply compromised by complex financial shenanigans orchestrated by figures
from the same  intelligence circles -- and undermined by the crisis with
Iran, exacerbated by covert dissident CIA elements tied to Bush. Carter was
a one-term president, defeated by a ticket with none other than George H.W.
Bush, backed by a phalanx of CIA officers, as vice president. And then Bush
senior became president himself.  

Bill Clinton apparently grasped the pattern. He cultivated a friendly
relationship with the elder Bush and instituted virtually no significant
reforms in, or issued challenges to, either the intelligence or military
establishments.

All this is relevant today because the furtive forces and pressures that
haunted, and ultimately dominated, these past presidents have not abated.

Indeed, what the presidency of George W. Bush truly represented was the
unfettered, most reckless manifestation of the objectives this group has
pursued for many decades. In Bush 43's trademark pattern of showing the old
man how it's done, the son was bringing virtually into the open the kinds
of things his father preferred pursued sub-rosa. But behind the different
fa?ade it was the same game all over again.

The dirty tricks of Karl Rove, who got his first job under Bush 41 at the
Republican Party during Watergate; the use of the Supreme Court to force an
election their way; an early move to suppress the records of prior
presidencies; the maniacal secrecy of Vice President Cheney; the false
rationale used to justify the seizure of Iraqi oil reserves through
invasion; the clampdown on dissent and the unauthorized domestic
eavesdropping, the efforts to smear independent voices like Joseph Wilson
(the husband of  CIA officer Valerie Plame) and newsman Dan Rather; and
last and perhaps most significant, the unleashing from government oversight
of their friends and allies in finance and industry -- these and more
emerged from the old dreams and methods of this anti-democratic culture. 

Now, as a new president enters the White House promising reform, how much
will he be able to achieve if his reforms step on the same big toes? We
must begin to take seriously, and speak openly about, the true nature of
the forces behind the Bush family enterprise. If we do not, we will find
ourselves, several years from now, shaking our heads at new disaster, still
unable to comprehend what has happened -- and why.

Digg!

See more stories tagged with: bush, george w. bush

Russ Baker is an award-winning investigative reporter. He has written for
the New Yorker, Vanity Fair, The Nation, the New York Times, the Washington
Post, the Village Voice and Esquire. Baker received a 2005 Deadline Club
award for his exclusive reporting on George W. Bush?s military record.
Information on his new book, Family of Secrets: the Bush Dynasty, the
Powerful Forces That Put It in the White House, and What Their Influence
Means for America, can be found at www.familyofsecrets.com.



From maryrose333 at att.net  Fri Jan 23 14:32:15 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 13:32:15 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] Does Israel fear its friends more
	than its enemies?
Message-ID: <001001c97da2$18ea9310$4abfb930$@net>



-----Original Message-----
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[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 4:54 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] Does Israel fear its friends more than its
enemies?


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Does Israel fear its friends more than its enemies?
By Paul Woodward, War in Context, January 22, 2009
http://warincontext.org/2009/01/22/editorial-does-israel-fear-its-friends-mo
re-than-its-enemies/

On December 18, 2008, Tel Aviv's Institute for National Security Studies
welcomed an honored American guest who participated in the 2nd Annual
International Conference: Security Challenges of the 21st Century.

Former US Senator George Mitchell presented, "The American
Perspective." Note the definite article - Mitchell was not simply
presenting an American perspective. Indeed, Haaretz reported yesterday that
the institute's director, Oded Eran, "found out on the eve of the
conference that Mitchell had been chosen as the next Mideast envoy, though
the envoy-designate did not discuss his new position."

Did Mitchell's anticipated imminent return to the region as President
Obama's Middle East envoy provide an added incentive for Israel to launch
its assault of Gaza? After January 20 the strain on US-Israeli relations
would have been severe.

But what could be so threatening about such a renowned American elder
statesman? How could someone with Mitchell's track record - a pivotal
role in bringing peace to Northern Ireland - not provide an invaluable
contribution to a moribund peace process?

Among Israel's leaders and some of its most influential supporters it is
Mitchell's virtues that present the most ominous threat.

In The Jerusalem Post, under the headline, "Mitchell: Every conflict can
be solved," Herb Keinon candidly exposes Israel's fear of an honest
broker. Citing the findings of Mitchell's 2001 report on the causes of
the Second Intifada, Keinon writes:

      The Mitchell Report called for an immediate cessation of violence and
a resumption of Israeli-Palestinian Authority security cooperation, and a
series of "confidence-building measures" to follow the cease-fire. The
two key measures were that the PA had to "make clear through concrete
action to Palestinians and Israelis alike that terrorism is reprehensible
and unacceptable and that the PA will make a 100-percent effort to prevent
terrorist operations and to punish perpetrators"; and that Israel had to
"freeze all settlement activity, including the 'natural growth' of
existing settlements."

      One government official said Mitchell's position on zero settlement
construction, together with new National Security Adviser James Jones's
previous articulation of frustration at Israel's inability to dismantle
outposts, would likely put Israel and the new administration on a collision
course.

      The official said that while Mitchell had been considered "a friend
of Israel" when he was Senate majority leader from 1989-1995, his tenure
as head of the Mitchell Committee left some in Jerusalem with the feeling
that he was trying to be "too balanced."

      The official said the apparent selection of Mitchell as special
envoy, over more high-profile Jewish Middle East experts surrounding Obama
- such as Dennis Ross, Daniel Kurtzer, Martin Indyk and Richard Holbrooke -
might indicate that for the sake of balance, Obama did not want a Jew in
that position.

Echoing the same fear that Mitchell's appointment puts Israel at risk
because he will be "too" fair, one of Israel's most prominent
American defenders was equally frank in revealing his doubts:

      "Sen. Mitchell is fair. He's been meticulously even-handed,"
said Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League.
"But the fact is, American policy in the Middle East hasn't been
'even handed' - it has been supportive of Israel when it felt Israel
needed critical U.S. support.

      "So I'm concerned," Foxman continued. "I'm not sure the
situation requires that kind of approach in the Middle East."

In as much as George Mitchell provokes fear among Israelis, he also
crystallizes what should now be under debate.

The peace process has become a facade. Behind this facade, inside Israel,
there has arisen a hardening conviction that peace is not possible.
Mitchell poses a direct challenge to that conviction because he comes in
with the opposite view:

      .from my experience in Northern Ireland I formed the conviction
that there is no such thing as a conflict that can't be ended. Conflicts
are created and conducted by human beings. They can be ended by human
beings. I saw it happen in Northern Ireland although admittedly it took a
very long time. I believe deeply that with committed, persevering and
active diplomacy it can happen in the Middle East.

The real question that confronts Israel is not, what can advance the peace
process? The question is much starker: does Israel still believe in the
possibility of peace or has it become resigned to existing in a perpetual
state of war?

Yet to pose this question is to expose the fragility of the security bubble
inside which Israel currently chooses to reside. For as much as Israel
likes to assume the posture of an indomitable military power, the simple
truth is that Israel's military might is utterly dependent on America's
patronage - hence the threat posed by America as honest broker, as
opposed to loyal defender. As honest broker, America cannot perpetually
provide Israel with the option of choosing war instead of peace.




From maryrose333 at att.net  Fri Jan 23 14:32:15 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 13:32:15 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] When will the water run out?
Message-ID: <001101c97da2$1bdaae20$53900a60$@net>



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TradingPostPaul
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 4:05 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] When will the water run out?


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When will the water run out?
Climate change, increased industrial demand and wanton wastefulness: is
'peak water' upon us?
22 January 2009 16.07 GMT
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2009/jan/22/water-climate-change

Peak oil may be the least of our problems, scientists warned today. Growing
industrial demand for water in developing countries such as China, rapidly
expanding urban populations and the efficiency with which we use water have
increased the risk of "peak water" - a resource that most of us presume
will be infinite - entering a terminal decline.

Of course, we already knew one of the big eco-bummers of our modern lives
is that products from beer to microchips use inordinate amounts of water.
Last August, the WWF revealed that each Brit effectively uses 4,645 litres
of water a day to produce the food on our tables and the T-shirts on our
backs; see our world map for an idea of where Britain's "borrowed water"
comes from.

Unsurprisingly, one of the solutions advocated by this new report is a
better use of the water we have. To that end, the authors have estimated
the water footprint of everyday food and drink, which encouragingly shows
that one litre of beer consumes less water (300 litres) than one litre of
orange juice (850 litres). One kilogram of coffee is reportedly more
thirsty (21,000 litres of water) than one kilogram of hamburger (16,000
litres). Take a look at our image gallery to see the hidden water cost of
everything from your daily cuppa to a glass of wine.

According to the report, this is adding up to a global crisis. "We are
facing a crisis of running out of sustainably managed water," says Peter
Gleick, the author of the sixth edition of the World Water report by
California's Pacific Institute. Despite human demand accounting for over
50% of the world's accessible freshwater, the report warns that billions of
people still lack access to basic water services. Developing countries, it
notes, will suffer worst from peak water because of supply problems
exacerbated by flooding, drought and water pollution. Developed countries
won't be entirely spared though, as Peter Preston discovered in Spain last
year.

The World Water report continues by singling out China as a country in
danger of water stress because of its inefficient water use and large
projects such as the Three Gorges Dam scheme. "[Chinese] Rivers and lakes
are dead and dying, groundwater aquifers are overpumped, uncounted species
of aquatic life have been driven to extinction, and direct adverse impacts
on both human and ecosystem health are widespread and growing," warns
Gleick.

His team also highlights how climate change is adversely affecting water
global supplies and its impact on food production.

"The stress on global food production from temperatures alone is going to
be huge, and that doesn't take into account water supplies stressed by the
higher temperatures," said David Battisti, the lead author of another study
published earlier this month.

Gleick's report is keen to stress that the concept of peak water, or more
specifically "peak ecological water", isn't completely analogous to peak
oil. Unlike oil, some water supplies are infinitely renewable. But even
those regions with a water supply that could be exhausted are only likely
to suffer peak water locally - whereas peak oil will be a global issue.




From maryrose333 at att.net  Fri Jan 23 14:54:54 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 13:54:54 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] Flood of foreclosures: It's worse
	than you think
Message-ID: <000c01c97da5$3cf36630$b6da3290$@net>



-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:46 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] Flood of foreclosures: It's worse than you
think


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Flood of foreclosures: It's worse than you think
Banks are moving slowly to list repossessed homes for sale, which could
mean that housing inventory is even more bloated than current statistics
indicate.
By Les Christie, CNNMoney.com staff writer
Last Updated: January 23, 2009: 3:12 PM ET
http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/21/real_estate/ghost_inventory/index.htm

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Housing might be in worse shape than we think.

There is probably even more excess housing inventory gumming up the market
than current statistics indicate, thanks to a wave of foreclosures that has
yet to hit the market.

The problem: Many foreclosed homes and other distressed properties that are
now owned by banks have yet to be listed for sale. The volume of this
so-called 'ghost inventory' could be substantial enough to depress already
steeply falling prices when it does go on the market.

"That's not good news," said Pat Newport, an analyst with IHS Global
Insight. "[Excess] inventory is the biggest problem in housing these days,
and it leads to lower housing prices, which leads to more foreclosures."

RealtyTrac, the online marketer of foreclosed properties, recently
discovered that it has far more foreclosed properties listed it its
database, which the company compiles using courthouse records, than there
are listed in the multiple listing services (MLS) maintained by real estate
agents.

RealtyTrac looked at listings in four states, California, Maryland, Florida
and Wisconsin, and found that they contained only a third of the
foreclosures it has in its database.

The scope of the problem isn't clear, but it could be huge considering that
RealtyTrac has a total of 1.5 million bank-owned properties on its site.

"Many properties that should be listed on the MLS are not listed on the
MLS," said Lawrence Yun, chief economist for the National Association of
Realtors (NAR).
Underestimating inventory

The National Association of Realtors calculates official housing inventory
statistics using data from the multiple listing services. By that measure,
there were 4.2 million existing homes for sale in November, an 11.2-month
supply at the current sales pace, up from a 10.3 month supply in October.

But now it seems quite possible that these figures, which are already at
record highs, are underestimating the situation. And if that's the case, it
could take much longer for the housing market recover than analysts
currently expect.

Until supply can be brought down to a more normalized level of six to seven
months, home prices will continue to come under pressure, according to Yun.

"It could be a worse problem than we think," he said.

L.J. Jennings, a real estate broker with Pyramid Real Estate and
Investments in Oakland Calif., sees plenty of evidence that it is.

"There are a number of properties in my area that have actually been taken
back by the banks, but have not hit the market yet," he said. "Once a bank
repossesses a property, in some cases, it can take more than six months to
hit the market."

He cites a handful of examples offhand, including a single family home in
Richmond seized in early October, a condo in San Ramon taken back the same
month, and a four-family building in Oakland that was repossessed in July.

"Either lenders are overwhelmed and can't get these properties back on sale
quickly" said RealtyTrac spokesman Rick Sharga, "or they're deliberately
slowing down."
Why there's a delay

The chief problem is probably system overload: Lenders are just not
prepared to handle the sheer numbers of foreclosures that they have on
their books. Banks took back about 860,000 in 2008 - more than twice the
number in 2007 - according to RealtyTrac. Before the housing crisis hit, it
took only about a month to get a bank-owned foreclosure on the market.

Lenders still insist they try to act as swiftly as possible. According to
Tom Kelly, a spokesman for Chase (JPM, Fortune 500) Mortgage, their goal is
to cut their losses on these homes, which are expensive to maintain, as
fast as possible.

But banks might hold back listings in areas where they already have lots of
homes for sale in order to avoid flooding the market, according to Michael
Youngblood, a financial analyst and founder of Five Bridges Capital, an
asset management company.

"If lenders have a significant number of properties in a limited area, they
may want to stagger putting them back on the market," he said.

Eve Alexander, a real estate broker with Buyers Broker of Florida in
Orlando, attributes the delays to the general malaise that's overtaken the
lending industry as it's imploded.

"I think banks are dragging their rears about doing just about everything,"
she said. "They have so much going on and there's so much red tape and the
people don't care, nothing gets done."

There are also batches of bank-owned homes that don't appear on the
multiple listing services because lenders are trying to sell them via bulk
and auction sales to investors as well as individuals, according to John
Mechem, public affairs director for the Mortgage Bankers Association.

He adds that it's also taking much longer to get many foreclosed homes in
decent enough shape to put on the market. (see This home for sale stinks.)

Bank-owned properties are in worse condition than ever because the
foreclosure process is taking longer than ever. As much as a year can pass
between the time a borrower first misses a payment and the final auction
sale, according to Youngblood. During that time, houses often deteriorate
because owners have neither the money nor the incentive to maintain them.
Some disgruntled homeowners may even deliberately damage homes before they
leave.

"According to our servicing folks, it's taking more time for lenders to get
properties in saleable condition," said Mechem.

The phenomenon of a growing ghost inventory doesn't promise to get better
anytime soon, as long as the rate of foreclosures continues to ravage the
market. There were more than 3.1 million foreclosure filings in 2008,
according to RealtyTrac.

Said Sharga: "I don't see how we can avoid another 3 million in 2009." 




From maryrose333 at att.net  Fri Jan 23 21:04:53 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:04:53 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] Saudi prince urges Obama to
	change US policy on Israel
Message-ID: <000301c97dd8$ecdaf3f0$c690dbd0$@net>



-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 5:14 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] Saudi prince urges Obama to change US
policy on Israel


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http://lists.riseup.net/www/info/globalnetnews-summary)


Saudi prince urges Obama to change US policy on Israel
Israel had come close to killing the prospect of peace with its offensive
in Gaza, Prince Turki al-Faisal said.
Friday, 23 January 2009 10:55
http://en.dunyabulteni.net/news_detail.php?id=35440

A member of Saudi Arabia's royal family warned U.S. President Barack Obama
on Friday the Middle East peace process and U.S.-Saudi ties were at risk
unless Washington changed its position on the Israeli occupation in
Palestinian territories.

Israel had come close to killing the prospect of peace with its offensive
in Gaza, Prince Turki al-Faisal wrote in an article published on the
Financial Times's website.

"Unless the new U.S. administration takes forceful steps to prevent any
further suffering and slaughter of Palestinians, the peace process, the
U.S.-Saudi relationship and the stability of the region are at risk," said
Turki, a former Saudi intelligence chief and former ambassador to the
United States and Britain.

Israel killed 1,300 Palestinians with a quarter of children and wounded
5300 during the 22-day offensive, which ended with a ceasefire on Sunday.

Obama, sworn in as president on Tuesday, named former Senator George
Mitchell on Thursday for Mideast.

Former U.S. President George W. Bush's administration had left a "sickening
legacy" in the Middle East, Turki wrote, singling out the Iraq occupation.

The Bush administration had also contributed to the slaughter of innocents
in Gaza, said Turki, who currently holds no official government position in
the world's top crude oil exporter.

"If the U.S. wants to continue playing a leadership role in the Middle East
and keep its strategic alliances intact -- especially its 'special
relationship' with Saudi Arabia -- it will have to drastically revise its
policies vis-a-vis Israel and Palestine," Turki wrote.

He said Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had written to Saudi King
Abdullah last week urging Saudi Arabia to lead a holy war, against Israel.

This call for jihad would, if pursued, create "unprecedented chaos" in the
region, said Turki.

"So far, the kingdom has resisted these calls, but every day this restraint
becomes more difficult to maintain," he said.

Turki urged Obama to condemn Israel's atrocities against the Palestinians.

Human rights group Amnesty International said Israel had committed war
crimes on Monday over its use of white phosphorus munitions in densely
populated areas of Gaza. Israel denied that.

Turki said Obama should condemn Israeli settlement building in the West
Bank and the blockade of Gaza and should call for an immediate withdrawal
of Israeli forces from the disputed Shebaa Farms area claimed by Lebanon.

He urged Obama to strongly promote a 2002 Saudi peace initiative, which
calls for Israel's full withdrawal of lands occupied in 1967 and accepts a
solution for Palestinian refugees.

Reuters 



From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 24 01:04:22 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 13:34:22 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] Saudi prince urges Obama to
	change US policy on Israel
In-Reply-To: <000301c97dd8$ecdaf3f0$c690dbd0$@net>
Message-ID: <838974.23905.qm@web94913.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Obama needs to listen to the Saudi prince as he is calling for justice

--- On Sat, 24/1/09, mary rose <maryrose333 at att.net> wrote:

From: mary rose <maryrose333 at att.net>
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] Saudi prince urges Obama to change US policy on Israel
To: "'Discussion Forum for Global Justice'" <discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>, FixGov at yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 24 January, 2009, 9:34 AM


-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 5:14 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] Saudi prince urges Obama to change US
policy on Israel


(To change your settings or unsubscribe please go to
http://lists.riseup.net/www/info/globalnetnews-summary)


Saudi prince urges Obama to change US policy on Israel
Israel had come close to killing the prospect of peace with its offensive
in Gaza, Prince Turki al-Faisal said.
Friday, 23 January 2009 10:55
http://en.dunyabulteni.net/news_detail.php?id=35440

A member of Saudi Arabia's royal family warned U.S. President Barack Obama
on Friday the Middle East peace process and U.S.-Saudi ties were at risk
unless Washington changed its position on the Israeli occupation in
Palestinian territories.

Israel had come close to killing the prospect of peace with its offensive
in Gaza, Prince Turki al-Faisal wrote in an article published on the
Financial Times's website.

"Unless the new U.S. administration takes forceful steps to prevent any
further suffering and slaughter of Palestinians, the peace process, the
U.S.-Saudi relationship and the stability of the region are at risk," said
Turki, a former Saudi intelligence chief and former ambassador to the
United States and Britain.

Israel killed 1,300 Palestinians with a quarter of children and wounded
5300 during the 22-day offensive, which ended with a ceasefire on Sunday.

Obama, sworn in as president on Tuesday, named former Senator George
Mitchell on Thursday for Mideast.

Former U.S. President George W. Bush's administration had left a
"sickening
legacy" in the Middle East, Turki wrote, singling out the Iraq occupation.

The Bush administration had also contributed to the slaughter of innocents
in Gaza, said Turki, who currently holds no official government position in
the world's top crude oil exporter.

"If the U.S. wants to continue playing a leadership role in the Middle
East
and keep its strategic alliances intact -- especially its 'special
relationship' with Saudi Arabia -- it will have to drastically revise its
policies vis-a-vis Israel and Palestine," Turki wrote.

He said Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had written to Saudi King
Abdullah last week urging Saudi Arabia to lead a holy war, against Israel.

This call for jihad would, if pursued, create "unprecedented chaos"
in the
region, said Turki.

"So far, the kingdom has resisted these calls, but every day this
restraint
becomes more difficult to maintain," he said.

Turki urged Obama to condemn Israel's atrocities against the Palestinians.

Human rights group Amnesty International said Israel had committed war
crimes on Monday over its use of white phosphorus munitions in densely
populated areas of Gaza. Israel denied that.

Turki said Obama should condemn Israeli settlement building in the West
Bank and the blockade of Gaza and should call for an immediate withdrawal
of Israeli forces from the disputed Shebaa Farms area claimed by Lebanon.

He urged Obama to strongly promote a 2002 Saudi peace initiative, which
calls for Israel's full withdrawal of lands occupied in 1967 and accepts a
solution for Palestinian refugees.

Reuters 


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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jan 24 05:18:02 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 12:18:02 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] A Better Way to Bailout Banks
In-Reply-To: <65c4ac11c9e147717f8f0991c6919180@www.davincidynamics.com>
Message-ID: <531185.32241.qm@web27406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Fri, 23/1/09, George Soros <george at georgesoros.com> wrote:

From: George Soros <george at georgesoros.com>
Subject: A Better Way to Bailout Banks
To: "Robert Searle" <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Friday, 23 January, 2009, 9:00 PM



Dear Colleagues:
I thought you would be interested in reading my latest essay published in the Financial Times. I critique the way it appears the government intends to spend the second tranche of TARP funding and propose an alternative.
George Soros
The Right and Wrong Way to Bail Out the Banks
By George Soros

According to reports in Washington, the Obama administration may be close to devoting as much as $100bn of the second tranche of the troubled asset relief programme funds to creating an "aggregator bank" that would remove toxic securities from the balance sheets of banks. The plan would be to leverage this amount up 10-fold, using the Federal Reserve's balance sheet, so that the banking system could be relieved of up to $1,000bn (?770bn, ?726bn) worth of bad assets.
Although the details have not yet been decided, this approach harks back to the approach originally taken - but eventually abandoned - by Hank Paulson, the former US Treasury secretary. The proposal suffers from the same shortcomings: the toxic securities are, by definition, hard to value. The introduction of a significant buyer will result, not in price discovery, but in price distortion.
Moreover, the securities are not homogeneous, which means that even an auction process would leave the aggregator bank with inferior assets through adverse selection. Even with artificially inflated prices, most banks could not afford to mark their remaining portfolios to market so they would have to be given some additional relief. The most likely solution is to "ring-fence" their portfolios, with the Federal Reserve absorbing losses that extend beyond certain limits.
These measures - if enacted - would provide artificial life support for the banks at considerable expense to the taxpayer, but would not put the banks in a position to resume lending at competitive rates. The banks would need fat margins and steep yield curves for a long time to rebuild their equity.
In my view, an equity injection scheme based on realistic valuations, followed by a cut in minimum capital requirements for banks, would be much more effective in restarting the economy. The downside is that it would require significantly more than $1,000bn of new capital. It would involve a good bank/bad bank solution, where appropriate. That would heavily dilute existing shareholders and risk putting the majority of bank equity into government hands.
The hard choice facing the Obama administration is between partially nationalising the banks, or leaving them in private hands but nationalising their toxic assets. Choosing the first course would inflict great pain on a broad segment of the population - not only on bank shareholders but also on the beneficiaries of pension funds. However, it would clear the air and restart the economy.
The latter course would avoid recognising and coming to terms with the painful economic realities, but it would put the banking system into the same quandary that proved the undoing of the government sponsored enterprises (GSEs) - Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The public interest would dictate that the banks should resume lending on attractive terms. However, this lending would have to be enforced by government diktat because the self-interest of the banks would lead them to focus on preserving and rebuilding their own equity.
Political realities are pushing the Obama administration towards the latter course. It cannot go to Congress and ask for the authorisation to spend an additional $1,000bn on recapitalising the banks because Mr Paulson has poisoned the well in the way he demanded and then spent the money for Tarp. Even the second tranche of Tarp - the remaining $350bn - could only be pried loose by a congressional manoeuvre. That is what is leading the Obama administration to contemplate reserving up to $100bn of that tranche for the "aggregator bank" solution.
The stock market is pressing for an early decision by putting pressure on financial stocks. But the new team should avoid repeating the mistakes of the previous one and announcing a programme before it has been thoroughly thought out. The choice between the two courses is momentous; once made, it will become irreversible. It should be based on a careful evaluation of the alternatives.
President Barack Obama can fulfil his promise of a bold new approach only by establishing a discontinuity with the previous team. Congress and the public are right in feeling that too much has been done for the banks and not enough for beleaguered householders. The government ought to take the GSEs out of limbo and use them more actively to stabilise the housing market. Having done so, it could go back to Congress for authorisation to recapitalise the banking system the right way.
The writer is chairman of Soros Fund Management
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2009
Click here to read the entire article.

More articles and essays by George Soros can be found at www.georgesoros.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please do not reply to this email, because this mailbox is not monitored. For more information please visit GeorgeSoros.com.
George Soros
888 7th Avenue
New York, NY 10106


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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jan 24 09:28:56 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 16:28:56 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] THE NEW UPDATED P2PFOUNDATION ENTRY ON TRANSFINANCIAL
	ECONOMICS (JANUARY 2009)
Message-ID: <794013.84268.qm@web27402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


?
Dear all,
?
???????? Here is the link to the new updated entry on Transfinancial Economics.
?
? http://www.p2pfoundation.net/Transfinancial_Economics
?
?

Transfinancial Economics

>From P2P Foundation

Jump to: navigation, search
Transfinancial Economics,or TFE is a concept for economic and financial reform developed by Robert Searle. 



An Introductory Note. 
At the time of writing this entry (January 2009)the existing kheper essay, or "paper" on TFE has not been updated due to a problem with the webmaster. This may change soon. It should also be said that it gives a somewhat "crude" understanding of the electronic inflation controls in comparison to what is presented here. TFE is also nearing basic completion, and new ideas may be added to it. 

[1] 
TFE should be treated as an invention rather than a political football. Updates concerning research progress can on occassion be found at the global justice movement.net discussion group. 
[2] 




[edit]
Tax Free, and Interest Free Monetary Reform
This is a brief "non-technical" introduction to a "new" futuristic monetary reform. It is called Transfinancial Economics or TFE, sometimes called Non-Taxation Monetary Reform. 
It revolves around the concept that apart from earned money new non-repayable (ie.unearned) capital can be responsibly created, and transmitted (ie money is electronic in the main, and is sent electronically from one account to another) without taxation for democratic governments,and indeed, to a large extent fundraising by NGOs. This is a "revolution" in our understanding of money and the world. In the right hands, this concept could be one of the greatest breakthroughs of the 21st century and beyond. 
However,there is arguably more than enough earned money to change the world. Ofcourse, it would be highly ethical for it to be more fairly distributed, or rather redistributed as understood in a genuine socialist system. Yet, most of us realize this is unlikely to occur in the immediate future..if at all. 
As such TFE recognizes this, and believes that the best way forward is the responsible creation, and tranmission to governments, and NGOs of new non-repayable money circulated along with its earned counterpart. It is realized that greater financial empowerment lies with LEGAL ACCESS to it when, and wherever there is a true need for it. The only other limits to success in such matters is effective planning, and relevant resources. 
In normal circumstances, the creation, and transmission of new non-repayable money could lead in time to hyperinflation. Yet, this is unlikely in the light of "new" understanding which will be explained later. All the same though advanced computer technology and programming could be developed, and then used to deal with this instantly, effectively, and directly. 


Important to Grasp 

Before procceeding further it is vital to comprehend the following. There is NO UNCONTROLLED CREATION OF MONEY unlike the cases of the Weimar Republic, the French Revolution, the Russion Revolution, the American War of Independence, et al. Rather it is notably targetted at productive social,economic, and political projects, and does not enter quickly into general circulation. This last point appears to be what happened in the past ultimately leading to devaluation of currency (ie. hyperinflation). 
Thus, there would notably be a gradual rather than a rapid rise in consumer demand which would largely be met by businesses who would expand fairly quickly because they would have the extra money, and indeed, the help if necessary(ie. interest loans, subsidies, plus commercial grants created out of carefully targetted new non-repayable capital)to cater for it. As such natural shortages of products, and services would probably not feature. 
Indeed, in TFE we would have a more accurate, and more scientific understanding of the entire economy as money is mainly electronic data being transmitted from one bank account to another. As such it would be possible with the right programming(tracking, and identifying most transactions electronically on a banks computer) to get highly accurate data about how much of an inflation risk the creation of new, and non-repayable money could be.In other words, enough could be created, and transmitted with little, or no fear of genuine economic "damage." This more scientific approach would be much more advanced, and accurate than the usage of present day Economic Indicators. 
It is also important to understand that there is a huge amount of "non-repayable" money in the existing economy. For example.... 
A. Loans are created electronically out of thin air by banks. In other words, new money for the time being. Yet, loans are repayable via the slow paying back of the new unearned capital with its earned equavalent. This can be seen too as a means of reducing inflation levels as it is new extra capital into the economy. 
B. Governments give huge/small grants of non-repayable money to their various departments, and projects. Yet, in this case this is ofcourse earned money created via taxes. 
C. NGOs receive, and give a large number of grants which again are non-repayable monies. But like taxes it comes from an earned source. 
In the light of all this it is wonder that hyperinflation has not occured especially so when we realize that fantastical amounts are created by various types of "unproductive" financial "betting" known as derivatives!!(notably currency speculation). Yet, these are largely contained in the electronic virtual economy rather than in the real economy. 
It is thus becomes clear that a certain amount of money as grants if targetted at existing assets do not lead to serious inflation. The huge bank bailouts are an example. This like the loans ofcourse mentioned earlier are created out of new money but through a process of time are paid back by the taxpayer. This is absurd because if they do not cause serious inflation in the first place then why pay this unearned money via earned money from the people? 
A realization of the above claims was something which was realized by Social Credit developed by Clifford Douglas. But in TFE there are also powerful super-flexible direct electronic controls in dealing with any possibilities of serious inflation and even hyperinflation rather than interest rates, and taxes. Furthermore ofcourse it should be repeated that with specially programmed, and advanced computer technology it would probably be possible to create enough money without serious inflation. 


Basic Ethical Arguments for the Creation of New Capital. 


There are a number of key points which make the concept of new non-repayable money acceptable along with its earned counterpart. 
i) All money originates from an unearned source of creation. As such from an objective viewpoint it has equal value to its earned counterpart as it would be legal tender. 
ii) So-called Free Money already exists to a limited extent (eg government grants, donations, wills leaving money). 
iii) Critics would like to point out that if new non-repayable money could be created, and transmitted without uncontrolled inflation it would mean that earning it in the first place would no longer be necessary. This ofcourse would lead to the collapse of the economy, and social chaos. 
TFE though sees itself as a transitional, or evolutionary process in which we should have the mental maturity to realize that earning money is still essential until the time comes when "full"automation exists, and society becomed "jobless" in a traditional economic sense. It is then that new non-repayable money could play a vital role by helping to bring into existence "leisure-like employments" which would be possible either in a profit, or/and non-profit context. Ultimately, in some future time money itself would be abolished altogether. In other word,a hi-tech gifting economy similiar to proposals as the Venus Project developed by Jacque Fresco who notably draws his direct inspiration from Technocracy. 
iv) Some critics would say that new non-repayable money is Funny Money. Yet, they fail to realize the fact that it already exists as most of the banks create it out of thin air as a loan which is repayable... 
v) TFE should be seen as a kind of ethical economics because it sees money as having a High Human Value other than just a medium of exchange because its social, economic, and political implications are huge, and all-encompassing. 

Important Moral Arguments for Non-Taxation. 

There are a number of key arguments for the abolition of direct, and indirect taxation. They are;- 
i)Tax raising is absurd especially as it is very possible for new non-repayable money to be created, and transmitted safely into the economy using advanced computer programming. 
ii)Everyone should be entitled to all their earned money as a human right. 
iii)It is highly unethical to finance any misuse of government spending. 
iv)People should be rewarded by a policy of Non-Taxation as they are the actual creators of real wealth. 
v)Evidence suggests that many rich, and super-rich people are finding loopholes to escape the taxman notably off-shore accounts. This means that people on lower incomes have to "subsidize" the well off so to speak which ofcourse is unfair. 
Moreover, it has become very easy to transmit bank accounts to other countries thus making the investigation by tax inspectors difficult in extremis. 
vi)Quite a number of wars, and revolutions were caused directly, or indirectly by unfair taxes. 


Electronic Registration, and Electronic Macroeconomic Accounting 

In TFE prices can self-adjust naturally as much as possible, and hence supply, and demand are elastic. This is vital within the present capitalist system. 
Anyway, as with the present capitalist system prices would ofcourse be determined by business people. These by law would be registered electronically with the inflation department (replacing tax legislation, and possibly in part overseen by the inflation authorityof a bank, or some similiar institution). Changes in prices would thus be electronically tracked whenever sales are made, and where necessary (if at all)temporary electronic price controls could be instantly created after the business customer is informed. As with todays world anonymous cash transactions would still be possible. 
Most products,and/or services (including wages levels notably)would have an electronic ID by law. Thus they form part of the Registered Economy. The Unregistered Economy though makes up a small part of the entire economy. It consists of products, and/or services which are difficult to price though a price range "system" could be used.It may ofcourse suffer some serious inflation in time, and may be subjected to possible registration, and hence temporary electronic controls. 
In TFE the banks (irrespective of whether they are nationalized in full, or in part, or remaining exclusively in private hands)under inflation legislation would have special programmes to track the registered (ie identified) transactions, and the unregistered (ie unidentified)ones plus the velocity of their exchange. In other words, the bank would have a largely accurate comprehension of the entire working economy . On this basis special programmes would be used to ensure that new non-repayable capital could be created, and transmitted successfully. Moreover, for economists this would be a huge boon as it would be possible to gain direct, and accurate information concerned about forcasting the sustainable growth of the entire economy. This is revolutionary. 
One way in which products, and/or services could be tracked electronically is ofcourse via barcodes which already exist. Special, or modified Scanners would pick up the data, and this could be sent to a bank. Thus, we would have instant up-to-date info on retail prices. This ofcourse would be a more advanced, and accurate way than using the Retail Price Index. 
It must be made abundantly clear that we are not discussing a Command Economy but rather the reverse in which a Free Price System exists. Moreover, credible legislation must ensure a high degree of data protection, and be independent to a certain extent from so-called "Big Brother" beloved of conspiracy theorists. 

Possible Electronic Controls Over Inflation if Necessary. 

The following gives us some insight as to how registered products, and/or services could be subjected to instant inflation controls if necessary ofcourse. These measures are like price controls of the past but are far more advanced because a)they are super-flexible, b) they do not require a huge bureaucracy c) they can give instant compensation, and/or instant subsidization d) they can correct anything instantly if necessary, and thus any money lost as a result can be re-created by electronic means as money itself is essentially electronic data e) they could if necessary fine people, and companies directly, and electronically from their banks accounts to ensure compliance to some aspect of inflation legislation. 
There are a number of inflation controls as described below:- 

i) Automatic Inflation Adjustment. 

This is when the inflated portion of a product, or service is subjected to an instant inflation check at the point of sale, or later on at the bank. If whatever has been bought happens to be inflated to say 10% this amount is instantly created electronically into a subsidy which goes straight into the account of the customer. Thus, income, and nominal prices rise at the same time. This avoids serious devaluation. 


ii) Customer Current/Deposit Account Adjustment. 


This is perhaps the easiest method than i). Here, all bank accounts could be indexed electronically to the changing value of money during inflation. Something like this already exists to a limited extent(ie index linked products, or services). 
In TFE new non-repayable money could be created electronically for the bank accounts of customers. This would give rise to the "money illusion" that one has more to spend, and buy. Yet, the bank account has been adjusted to take into account inflation,and thus, ones purchasing power remains largely the same as before. 


iii) Automatic Inflation Deduction. 


This is when the inflated portion of a product, or service is subject to an instant inflation check in which it is reduced to its real value. In other words, the "inflated portion" is destroyed. This can be seen by some as a "tax" but it is not because money in real terms (ie.its real value as opposed to its inflated value) retains its purchasing power as if nothing had happened to it at all. 


iv) Instant Electronic Price Subsidization. 
If parts of the economy have persistent price rises (though arguably unlikely depending on the type, or types of computer programming)this may disturb public confidence in the monetary system. It is thus beholden by banks, and/or democratic governments to set up a programme of instant automatic price subsidization created electronically ofcourse out of new non-repayable money. 
This could in part pay for the inflated portion of the market price of a product, or service,(upto a "flexible" Price Ceiling) and the rest is paid for by the customer with earned money. Such an approach may be used if the prices are not only persistent but rise too quickly. 


v) Possible Price Rises, and Price Descrease Subsidization. 
This is another form of subsidization.It can play an important role in preventing,and/or reducing price rises. 
As the prices reach a "flexible" electronic Price Ceiling they are encouraged to decrease their retail value otherwise they are fined progressively to zero. However, as a positive incentive to start dropping their prices a subsidy acting as extra profit is instantly created. This could well mean double, or even triple profit a small part of which is given as earned money from the customer,and the rest of it is the instant creation of new non-repayable money as a subsidy. 
However, this could lead to some degree of overall price distortions in the marketplace but this could be sorted out by using electronic techniques. All this ofcourse is a small price to pay for an economy which is:- 
a)free of taxes 
b)free of interest on loans. 
b) The greater possibility of commercial grants. 
c) There are no "boom" and "bust" cycles but rather a continous process of growing prosperity. Thus, businesses benefit enormously in a Transfinancial Economy. 

vi) Controlled Hyperinflation. 


This should be totally unnecessary as it is largely if not wholly unacceptable, and of course ridiculous. This is when businesses deal amongst themselves in "hyperinflated" pricing. However, as soon as the money enters the bank computers it is reinterpreted into its real values rather than its "astronomical" nominal/inflated equivalent. Businesses would have to understand that this is just "a change of digits" in which the purchasing power is preserved without serious currency devaluation. 


Possible Demand Management. 

There are certain key areas which directly, and indirectly deal with the possibility of rising demand in some, or most sectors of the economy. These are briefly presented: 

a) Gradual transition of the economy to a transfinancial one to ensure that changes in demand, and supply can be dealt with successfully. Thus, tax over a few years would be phased out to zero. 
b) Rigorous checks on governments, NGOs, and certain businesses(especially those concerned with sustainable technologies) to ensure that transmissions of new non-repayable money (where necessary)is going to projects which are backed up with good planning, and enough relevant resources. 
c) It would be possible to know whether certain important resources are under threat by using data instantly collected from registered transmissions monitored by the bank computers of certain transactions. It, and/or some other legal body (ie. the national inflation authority)may step in to suggest alternatives, and/or cease production as soon as possible of the company concerned, or else face unlimited fines directly from its business bank account.Compensation for loss of business would be possible. 

The above gives one an idea of possible demand management in an interest,and tax-free economy in the modern world. 


>From Competative Capitalism to more Advanced Socio-Economic Alternatives. 


It should be said that capitalists would make much profit in Transfinancial Economics especially in the first few decades of its introduction. But, later on it would become increasingly difficult to find new business opportunities as they would be very thin on the ground (ie. resource scarcity). Thus, take-over bids may become increasingly common for existing commercial enterprises (but special NGOs, and possibly willing governments could buy up such assets as they would now have the financial clout as never before). At long last capitalism, and capitalists will realize that money in itself cannot be the answer to everything if the relevant resources are not around for them to profit on. Infact, this will cause more problems than it would solve! 
At the same time through extensive education especially of the young possibly via certain NGOs concerned with democracy,altruism, fairer distribution of wealth and non-competative/co-operative forms of "capitalism" and it alternatives the present capitalist system would ultimately phase itself out altogether. In other words, a process of evolution. 
Hence, capitalism, and its elite would not be overthrown by revolution (as envisaged by Marx), or indeed, ofcourse via a global financial meltdown but simply discarded as a stage of automation, and technology would be reached making money itself redundent as a means of exchange. Such a stage of evolution would initially be undertaken by an enchanced capitalist system because by then its production, and marketing stategies would be fully in line with sustainability, and various green technologies. This process would be aided with powerful financial incentives in the form of subsidies, interest free loans, and commericial grants notably in areas where there are little, or no obvious viable investments for profiting on. These would be created out of new capital. 


Interest-Free Monetary Reform. 


Apart from what has been said above radical monetary reformers tend to concentrate on banks. As mentioned earlier these commercial enterprises create most of the money of the world out of thin air as a loan, or credit with interest of course. Cash produced by governments only make a near non-existant portion of the present financial system. The aim of the monetary reformers in question is to try to bring about interest-free loans which would be beneficial to society, and the economy. Obviously, this is unlikely to happen due to the power of the banks but things may change ofcourse during the financial "meltdown". 
Anyhow, banks (along with other "non-financial" companies)could continue to lend at interest but this would not be paid for by the customer but rather by an independent public body. However, when other highly profitable forms of business emerge then these can replace the creation of interest free credit, and only non-repayable money could be created at an "operational" cost. Moreover, banks would receive payment for carrying out the electronic inflation controls on a daily basis. The same would be true for their transmission of grants which could be made cheap, or expensive to produce electronically. 


Some Major Implications of Transfinancial Economics. 


These can be briefly listed:- 
1. There would be a huge process of acceleration towards the research, and possible use of sustainable technologies backed up by profit subsidies,interest free loans, and of course grants created out of new non-repayable money. Geo-engineering notably in connection with global warming could also become serious possibilities. 
2. Transnational Corporations especially in the Third World could be transformed into truly ethical, and sustainable businesses with powerful financial incentives for change including profit subsidization on a massive scale ofcourse. 
3. Universal healthcare would be possible irrespective of whether private businesses are involved or not. 
4. Generous pensions would be possible for an aged population without the need of income created by taxes, and/or by private long-term investments in the stock market, and other financial sources. 
5. Grassroots NGOs concerned with poverty reduction in the Developed, and Developing World would be better financed as never before to bring about positive change. 
6. NGOs concerned with fairer wealth distribution (or redistribution) such as Binary Economics, and Co-operatives and the like would be financed as never before to become a greater influence on society. 
7. Corporations concerned with oil production, and indeed, the arms trade could be bought up in stages by new non-repayable money. At present democratic governments plus certain relevant NGOs seem powerless to do much about them but with TFE we have a very powerful solution.................. 
Of course, there are other implications which we shall not go into here. At the same time, Positive Human Politics could be developed as a global paradigm which brings together as one the best, and most advanced democratic thinking into how a better, and more civilized world could be brought into existence. This subject is not discussed here. 


Campaign Activism for Transfinancial Economics 

In order to bring about the serious possibility of change from our present debt based economy of taxation, and interest to one which is not debt based a campaign would be necessary. However, a grassroots organization for the masses is unlikely to work though we may be wrong. Instead it is suggested here that a professional website would be set up to spread the word. It would be sent to people, and organizations that have power, and influence such as government policy makers,academics,financial companies, et cetera. This is probably the way forward. 

The TFE website itself would include the following features. 
i) A news update about the campaign progress. 
ii) Commissioned papers (initially) by willing economists using econometric models to show the efficacy of TFE in technical terms, including detailed studies on Electronic Registration, Electronic Macroeconomic Accounting, and the possible Inflation Controls. 
iii) An online Journal of Transfinancial Economics. 
iv) A powerpoint presentation of TFE for downloading. 

v) Any endorsements for TFE by any willing experts. 
vi) Possible field trials of the electronic technologies involved in TFE. 


PS A paper on TFE with direct references was actually accepted by a peer review journal. However, due to a dispute with the editor/publisher I withdrew it from publication, and at the time of writing (April 2008) a new version has been sent elsewhere. 
Robert Searle email address dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk 
Intelligent, and constructive dialogue is welcomed from anyone via email. 


PLEASE NOTE. Apologies for any errors in the above text if they exist. 
Retrieved from "http://www.p2pfoundation.net/Transfinancial_Economics"

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From maryrose333 at att.net  Sat Jan 24 09:42:12 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 08:42:12 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] 'German Banks Are on the Edge of
	the Abyss'
Message-ID: <001f01c97e42$ce7ba200$6b72e600$@net>



-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net [mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of TradingPostPaul
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 8:32 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] 'German Banks Are on the Edge of the Abyss'


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http://lists.riseup.net/www/info/globalnetnews-summary)

 01/23/2009

THE WORLD FROM BERLIN
'German Banks Are on the Edge of the Abyss'
http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,603181,00.html

The German government is desperately trying to find a way to save the
country's ailing banking sector. Can a so-called "bad bank" solve the
problem by taking over toxic assets? German commentators aren't convinced,
but they are certain that something needs to be done.

Several government rescue packages later, the troubled German banking
sector is still showing no sign of recovering from the financial crisis.

The discussion over what to do with the hundreds of billions of euros worth
of toxic securities the banks still have on their balance sheets has
received fresh impetus in Germany after it became clear that the Special
Fund for Financial Market Stabilization -- known as Soffin after its German
acronym -- is not succeeding in its intended aim of helping out troubled
banks and jump-starting financial markets. G?nther Merl, the head of the
agency that manages Soffin, announced Wednesday that he was resigning --
the second person to quit the agency's steering committee within the last
three months. Insiders say that Merl was frustrated at having his authority
usurped by government and Finance Ministry officials.

Now the talk is of setting up a so-called "bad bank" to take over banks'
toxic securities -- an approach backed by a number of leading German
bankers. Sweden was able to successfully use this model in the early 1990s
to combat its own credit crunch. The state even made money when distressed
assets were later sold.

According to a report in the Friday edition of the S?ddeutsche Zeitung,
the German government is considering setting up individual bad banks for
each financial institution, instead of establishing a single bad bank for
the whole sector. These bad banks could then be helped out by Soffin
without the respective financial institution being absolved of its
responsibilities, the paper wrote.

German media reported Thursday that Chancellor Angela Merkel's government
-- a coalition of conservative Christian Democrats and center-left Social
Democrats -- was considering ways of assisting banks without being saddled
with the toxic assets themselves. Finance policy experts from both
coalition parties on Thursday categorically ruled out setting up a national
bad bank.

One regional lender appears to have already chosen the bad bank approach.
On Friday, troubled German state-backed bank WestLB confirmed reports that
it was considering spinning off its risky debt -- with a value of around
?80 billion -- into a new bank. The remaining "healthy" bank would then
be a more attractive target for a takeover or merger, observers said.

Commentators writing in Germany's newspapers Friday agreed that urgent
action was necessary but were divided over the merits of the bad bank
model.

The center-right Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung writes:

"The (German government's) rescue operations have so far not brought the
desired results. The banks have been plugging up their worst holes with
billions of euros of taxpayers' money, but their losses have been growing
even faster. Meanwhile complaints from companies about increasingly
restrictive lending practices are growing louder. Obviously the banks can
not be helped just with money alone. The accounting principles and
supervisory rules for banks also need to be examined.

"A vicious circle has begun: Forced sales of securities are pushing down
prices, which leads to new rounds of write-offs, causing institutions'
capital to shrink -- which in turn makes further sell-offs necessary. The
government needs to break through this crisis. Then it will also no longer
need to take over the bad risks of the all-too-careless banks."

The financial daily Handelsblatt writes:

"It is not easy to say this loudly and clearly: The German banks are on the
edge of the abyss. This is the painful truth, and nothing but the truth.
? All of them have been hit (by the financial crisis). We urgently need a
'bad bank' in which a large part of the toxic securities and loans which
are still on the banks' balance sheets can be deposited.

"It doesn't matter whether each type of bank gets its own bad bank, or
whether there is only one bad bank for all. The crucial thing is that the
state is behind it. ? If all other major industrialized countries are
taking over their investment banks' toxic securities in one way or another,
then Germany cannot simply stand by and watch. Otherwise, its own banks
will fall far behind."

The Financial Times Deutschland writes:

"Soffin's facility for buying toxic securities from banks simply doesn't
work. Not one single bank has reached an agreement with Soffin to do this,
and there are no signs that this will happen in the future either.
According to a ruling by the European Commission, the banks will have to
take these risks back again after three years. Hence there is no real
cleaning-up of the balance sheet and no such cleaning-up would be
recognized by auditors. It is absolutely incomprehensible why Berlin
accepted this EU condition.

"German politicians would be well advised to approach the European
Commission again and to demand that this passage is corrected. Only in this
way can Soffin fulfill its intended function as a 'bad bank'. If this
doesn't happen, then the instrument will remain useless. And nobody needs
that."

The conservative Die Welt writes:

"Taken as a whole, (Germany's) financial institutions have dead weight to
the tune of hundreds -- or even thousands -- of billions on their balance
sheets. This problem can not be solved simply by sitting it out -- action
needs to be taken now so that the economic crisis is not exacerbated. In
this respect, the government should follow two principles that are in no
way contradictory: applying market principles on the one hand, and
minimizing costs on the other.

"These principles rule out the setting up of a bad bank as the central
repository for the toxic assets. Instead, each institution should set up
its own repository. If the government then needs to get involved, it is
important that it create mechanisms so that taxpayers should at least be
able to benefit from a subsequent upturn. Otherwise, the foundation is laid
for the state to suffer a concrete financial crisis of its own as a result
of the banking crisis."




From maryrose333 at att.net  Sat Jan 24 09:46:02 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 08:46:02 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] EU financial crisis worsening
Message-ID: <002301c97e43$5759eeb0$060dcc10$@net>



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Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 8:44 PM
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Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] EU financial crisis worsening


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 The Eurozone stands before its ultimate test
By Daniel Eckert and Holger Zsch?pitz January 21, 2009, 12:21
http://www.welt.de/english-news/article3065310/The-Eurozone-stands-before-it
s-ultimate-test.html

Speculators have sent the value of Irish, Spanish, Italian and Greek
government bonds to the brink of collapse. Meanwhile, the interest on these
credits has rocketed sky high. Many investors have no trust left for
Greece, Ireland and Spain. Is the Eurozone falling apart? And if so, what
next?

The financial crisis has hit each of the 16 countries belonging to the
Eurozone with varying strength.

As the euro celebrates its tenth year, it also stands before its most
difficult test. The capital markets are speculating furiously at the
prospect of the currency union?s collapse. The centrifugal powers are
growing larger each day. Even the politicians are showing alarm, with EU
finance commissioner Joaquin Almunia expressing his concern at the
beginning of the week.

The same way the master strategist George Soros brought the British pound
to its knees in 1992, now his successors have single member states of the
16 country Eurozone in their sight. The difference is that while Soros
could still speculate against single currencies, it is now somewhat
different with Ireland, Spain or Greece. Since these countries are members
of the Euro club, the investors have found a different approach,
specifically the government credits of each respective country.

The consequences are rather dramatic. The market speculators have brought
the value of Greek, Irish, Italian, or Spanish government loans to the
brink of collapse, and as a consequence the interest on these loans has sky
rocketed. In the meantime, Greek ten-year bonds accrue 5.72 percent, Irish
5.25 and Spanish 4.21 percent.

How dire the situation is can be decided with a view on the ten-year con
bonds, which accrue a little over 3 percent. This comes to 2.66 less
percentage points than their Greek counterparts, with the spread of 221
basis points to the Irish, with the trend climbing rapidly, whereas up
until a year ago the differences were barely worth a mention. The
difference in interest rates, also known as risk surcharge, gives an
impression of how much more return an emitter must supply.

Behind the malaise is the financial crisis, which has hit each of the 16
countries belonging to the Eurozone with varying strength. Countries such
as Spain, Ireland and Portugal, which have experienced a real estate boom,
are now in a particularly awkward position. Likewise Greece is likely to be
pulled under with the Balkan economies on top of its problems at home.

The investors speculate about two possible debacles in the weaker
countries: that a country may be forced to leave the Eurozone. The common
currency presently acts as a sort of corset for smaller member states. A
single country cannot estimate the base rate of its requirements, nor can
it devalue its currency to stimulate its domestic economy. The situation
would remain touch-and-go as there is no national central bank and
therefore no option to switch on the money printing machine to settle
debts."In the case of a Euro-exit, a land would have to annouce bankruptcy,
its banking system would break down. Furthermore,it would be threatened
with exclusion from the economic community,? say UBS economist Paul
Donovan.

However it does not need to go that far. Some market partcipants speculate
that single weaker countries would become insolvent as members of the Euro
community. In such a case, there is no clause in the Maastricht Treaty that
binds the other member states to come to the insolvent country?s rescue.
The rapid climb of the risk surcharges put a sort of self-fulfilling
prophecy in motion; the higher the interest rates in weaker countries
climb, the more each government shells out for the refinancing of its
debts, with the receivables climbing at a breathtaking speed. The rating
agencies are also playing into the hands of the speculators. The youngest
quality gradings from Greece an Spain have contributed to the broadening
spreads.

Not only financial markets are speculating about such breakings off. The
internet market Intrade shows bets of around 30 percent that at least one
country in the Eurozone will leave by the end of 2010. The euro is not
faring so well with all of this nasty weather; On Monday the Eurozone?s
common currency fell below the 1.30 dollar mark for the first time since
December.

Translated by Lauren Moffatt




From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jan 24 09:58:41 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 16:58:41 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] An Interesting Contact
Message-ID: <672479.22555.qm@web27406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All,
?
????????? Alan Kazlev my Jewish web hostmaster ?of some key essays at the kheper? site sent me a positive communication from Hazel Henderson much to my suprise as I did try to vainly contact her before to get some feedback on TFE.
?
?I am hoping she may reply. As we all know she is an important light in advanced economic thinking. Whether anything will come of it I do not know.....
?
Regards,
?
Robert Searle.


      
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From maryrose333 at att.net  Sat Jan 24 10:45:19 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 09:45:19 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] Obama Lifts Stranglehold on
	Women's Health
Message-ID: <003a01c97e4b$89b1fd00$9d15f700$@net>



-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 4:21 PM
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Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] Obama Lifts Stranglehold on Women's Health


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January 23, 2009 | 04:52 PM (EST)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cecile-richards/obama-lifts-stranglehold_b_160
463.html
Obama Lifts Stranglehold on Women's Health

With the stroke of a pen, President Obama today has lifted the stranglehold
on women's health across the globe. His repeal of the Mexico City Policy
(the global gag rule) ends eight long years of policies that have blocked
access to basic health care for women worldwide. No longer will health care
providers be forced to choose between receiving family planning funding and
restricting the health care services they provide to women.

To women around the world, no sound is sweeter than that of President
Obama's strong, clear support of women's health. The overturning of the
"global gag rule" means millions of women will be able to access birth
control and family planning since health care entities that provide the
full range of reproductive health care will once again be eligible for
international family planning funding.
Planned Parenthood has not only refused "gag funding," while we continue to
do work in more 17 countries around the world, but we've also helped in
other ways.

The Family Planning Association of Nepal's (FPAN) story is one that health
clinics around the world face. They refused to agree to the global gag rule
and lost its U.S. funding. As a result, they faced dire financial
circumstances.

The former Director General, Dr. Nirmal Bista, testified before the Senate
Foreign Relations Committee in July 2001, saying: "Were we to accept the
restricted U.S. funds, I would be prevented from speaking in my own country
to my own government about a health care crisis I know first-hand. But by
rejecting U.S funds, I put our clinics -- clinics addressing that same
health care crisis -- in very real jeopardy. It is an untenable situation.
But, we simply could not stand by and watch countless women suffer and die
without doing everything we could to prevent this misery."

Planned Parenthood stepped in and provided FPAN with one year of bridge
funding so that it could continue to provide services while seeking new
support to replace lost U.S. funds.

Under President Bush, the global gag rule forced the closing of hundreds of
these health clinics worldwide -- clinics that provided critical services
other than safe abortion such as mammograms, family planning and HIV
testing -- due to loss of funding, and took away the freedom of providers
to be honest and open with women about their health options. The impact on
women's health and lives has been so far-reaching that we will probably
never know the true extent of the harm.

With the election of Barack Obama as our next president and the appointment
of Hillary Clinton as our next Secretary of State, the United States has a
unique opportunity to restore women's health and well-being to the center
of the foreign policy agenda. President Obama and Secretary Clinton
understand that promoting women's rights not only improves health and
well-being, but also has concrete benefits for economic, political, and
social development. Over the past 15 or so years, research has emerged to
demonstrate that investing in women promotes active civil society, good
governance, and leads to concrete improvements in the welfare of families.

Repealing the global gag rule is a critical step, but more work must be
done to reverse the damage done by the Bush administration to women's
health. In the short term, removing abstinence-only requirements in AIDS
funding, and increasing foreign assistance for reproductive health --
including $1 billion for family planning -- will move us in the right
direction.

In the long term, women's health must be a priority not just in theory but
in practice, and across the board. Expanding access to family planning is
not only good, basic health care; it saves women's lives. The State
Department needs to ensure that women's health is a core component of
development and relief efforts. We need to work with our allies in
Congress, the Treasury Department, and overseas development offices to
ensure that financial pledges for women's health are fulfilled and that
funding is used efficiently. And members of the U.S. Foreign Service need
training on how the U.S. government's approach to women's health worldwide
will change with the new administration. Ambassadors should be sent a clear
message that their efforts should be driven by need and evidence -- not
ideology -- and they should be encouraged to make women's health a priority
in their country programs.

Women's health and well-being are the bedrock of freedom and independence
-- for individuals, families, and entire communities. Avoiding disease,
having access to clean water and nutritious food, deciding whether and when
to have children, and being safe in pregnancy and childbirth make women
stronger and improve the quality of life for families and communities.
Planned Parenthood will continue to advocate forcefully for policies that
promote women's health worldwide, while helping to provide access to
services and supplies for some of the world's most vulnerable people.

Just a few days after he's taken office, we can clearly say that thanks to
President Obama, it truly is a new day for women's health. And as we usher
in a new president committed to women's health, a cheer is going up around
the world in celebration. 



From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jan 25 03:52:47 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 10:52:47 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Re: The Money System is a Confidence Trick
Message-ID: <653748.50932.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?With TFE it would be possible for special programmes to know how much money is being saved, and spent instantly through tracking. This along with other direct electronic information would help to MAXIMISE within reason the transmission of new non-repayable capital thus making taxation, and most forms of fundraising superflous. The only limitations would be natural ones, and not the artificial one of capital.
?
Robert Searle.

--- On Sat, 24/1/09, william_b_ryan at yahoo.com <william_b_ryan at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: william_b_ryan at yahoo.com <william_b_ryan at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: The Money System is a Confidence Trick
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Saturday, 24 January, 2009, 9:59 PM

There is something called hoarding money...
----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------

Actually, hoarding money does not exist in the sense that people are not
spending their income.  Every dollar that you receive is eventually spent, if
only by your heirs.  The phenomenon that interests us is the change in the rate
of spending from income.  During the period that spending is decreasing from
income, costs of production cannot be commensurately cleared over the point of
retail.  And we are not concerned with what any person may be doing
individually.  While one person is decreasing his spending and increasing his
savings, another person is spending from his savings, offsetting the saving by
the person who is saving, so the effect is nil.  But we are concerned with what
is happening in the economy as a whole at any given point in time.  The
Gesellist position is that we crack the whip to get people to spend faster. 
That is a fascistic type of solution that doesn't work very well in any
case.  The Social Credit position is that your money is
 your money, it is your property.  You have the right to spend it on what you
like, or save it, or even to burn it, if that's what you want.  It has
everything to do with personal freedom. The Social Credit solution is to
accommodate individual behavior by supplementing effective demand through the
National Dividend and Retail Discount, so that sales cover the costs of
production being expensed to the point of retail.
-

Even if they should spend most of their interest income by purchasing, there
will be a difference between what is paid as interest and what is received back
as income to the people and businesses that have paid the interest.
----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------

Why?  The people who borrow are always having to earn the money to pay not only
the interest but also the principal from the rest of the community.  In an
expanding economy, the banks are spending more than enough money for the
community to pay interest back to them.  In hypothetical steady state the banks
are spending exactly the same amount that the community is paying in interest
back to them.  Only in a contracting economy are they not spending enough. 
Firms in general, including the banks, are spending less than what they are
receiving back through sales.  Account balances throughout the community are
depleting.
-

They (firms excluding the banks) manage to do that because they borrow, the
banks usually retain some of their earnings and will lend this part.
----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------

The firms are accommodated by the banks.  The banks don't need
accommodation from the banks because they are the banks.  The economy has been
creditary for forty thousand years.  The norm was to spend promissory notes, of
various forms and descriptions, which were offset by promissory notes received
from others from time to time.  The weakness in this system is the limited
recognizability and acceptability of the individualized notes.  The great
innovation of modern banking was that the banks exchanged their generally
recognized and accepted notes in the form of deposits for the individual notes
of their borrowers, greatly expanding the scope and utility of the market.  You
may thereby spend what you receive in your pay voucher at any store, not just
the company store.  This development was mostly complete by the end of the
nineteenth century.

By the way, the banks don't lend from their earnings, they lend from their
ability to credit deposit balances.  Their earnings strengthen their balance
sheets and form the justification for the payment of dividends to their
stockholders.
-

But as far I can understand, even if they should do this, there will be a time
delay which in turn causes a pressure to borrow.
----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------

There is always a delay between the receipt of a dollar and the time that
dollar is spent.  That delay is mostly accommodated by the rules and conventions
of double entry accounting.  It is further accommodated in the Social Credit
system and brought to perfection through the macroeconomic accounting
adjustments of the Dividend and Retail Discount.




--- On Sat, 1/24/09, Per Almgren <almgren_per at telia.com> wrote:

> From: Per Almgren <almgren_per at telia.com>
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: The Money System is a Confidence Trick
> To: socialcredit at elistas.com
> Date: Saturday, January 24, 2009, 7:54 AM

william_b_ryan at yahoo.com skrev:
> "If nobody borrowed more money, payments of the interest that have to
be done upon already existing loans will gradually shrink the circulating amount
of money as long as the receivers of the interest payments dont spend that
income on purchases or give (not lend) it away to somebodey else that spend
them." 
>
> My reply:
>
> This is the fallacious bankers' underconsumption hypothesis.  Of
course, if everybody, including the bankers, stop spending their income, the
economy will stop.  It is incumbent on you to explain why the bankers'
behavior should differ from the behavior of any other economic sector.  Saying
that there is some kind of bankers' conspiracy in this regard against the
public just doesn't wash.
>   

I don't need any conspiracy to explain. There is something called hoarding
money and sometimes some people prefeer not to lend their money if they
doesn't find the conditions favorable enough. They just keep them cash,
maybe in the hope that conditions will change in a way that is more favorable
for themselves. 

Even if they should spend most of their interest income by purchasing, there
will be a difference between what is paid as interest and what is received back
as income to the people and businesses that have paid the interest. This
difference put a pressure to borrow more money upon the already indebted. 

>The fact is that in a normally growing or expanding economy, every firm,
including each of the banks, is spending MORE into circulation than is refluxing
back to it through sales, yet is booking a profit. 

They (firms excluding the banks) manage to do that because they borrow, the
banks usually retain some of their earnings and will lend this part.

>  The analogy of sales to a bank is its fee and interest income.  That is
to say, the banks are spending MORE than enough money into circulation for the
community to pay interest back to the banks.  In hypothetical steady state the
banks are spending exactly the amount that is refluxing back to them. 

But as far I can understand, even if they should do this, there will be 
a time delay which in turn causes a pressure to borrow.
Per Almgren

>  In a contracting economy, they are spending LESS than the amount that is
refluxing back to them, yet are booking a loss.  Account balances throughout the
economy are diminishing to the point of of total depletion, at which point
economic activity stops.
>
>


      
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From maryrose333 at att.net  Sun Jan 25 17:36:46 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 16:36:46 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] Slouching Towards the Barackalypse
Message-ID: <000301c97f4e$2ec9bf00$8c5d3d00$@net>

There is much truth in this article, but as Bates writes, the truth will be
met with much derision. Most are not prepared to handle this emotionally so
will stick their heads in the sand and make believe everything will be
alright tomorrow.  The really cold hard truth is that advanced technology
has virtually replaced the need for human labor. And as we move into
nanotechnology, human hands are too large to handle these parts. As well,
witnessed by the ecological holocaust, the ecological bank account is as
bankrupt as the financial one, and demands the advance into nanotechnology
in order to conserve on resources that are growing more and more scarce. An
ecological footprint report shows that by the year 2050 we will need the
theoretical equivalent of another 1/2 earth to provide all the resources
necessary for the 6 billion people if we keep up consumption rates as of
now. Which means, if one understands this figure that the bank account is
empty now and we are fast overdrawing it. The result of which can only be
ecological collapse such as we are now seeing. An increase in jobs and in
construction of more "things" only serves to acerbate the problem. 

As I have repeated over and again, the U.S. became the most prosperous
nation in the history of the world since the end of World War II as it
advanced in production, but, at the same time it created more environmental
devastation than at any time in all of previous recorded history. And, it
also uses a disproportionate share of the world's resources with only 5% of
the world's population. We, in essence created a non-sustainable economy
that is now meeting its own destiny and taking the rest of the world down
with it. You can't continue to take the foundation out from under the hosue
and expect it to keep on standing.  

And when statistics show that it would be far more effective to pay people
to stay home rather than transport everyone to work and school, let alone
maintaining the buildings that these activities are housed in, here is Obama
putting all of this money into fixing this highly ineffective system,
attempting to use the same kind of thinking to fix the problem that got us
into it in the first place. But few seem to remember as Einstein remarked:
You can't use the same kind of thinking that got you into the problem in the
first place to solve it. 

All I can say is that I am thankful for the number of people involved in the
"Blessed Unrest" movement like Albert Bates. I just recently connected with
him. 

mary rose 

                    

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Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] Slouching Towards the Barackalypse


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Slouching Towards the Barackalypse
by Albert Bates   
25 January 2009
http://culturechange.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id
=297&Itemid=1

Image Watching the drama unfold in Washington last week, and listening to
the sound as it echoed around the planet, I was struck by how bi-polar our
shared political reality has become.

Many of us, probably the majority, are still hoping and praying that now
that the wicked witch is dead, the Wizard will whisk us back to Kansas and
Auntie Em will have a hot apple pie waiting. People in that category think
either the recession will be shortened by Keynesian infusions or
Rooseveltian public works, or if that fails and it enlarges into The
Greater Depression, it will rebound eventually, perhaps a decade hence,
just in time for the bulk of the baby boom to retire to their gated
communities and golf courses, bent but unbroken.

Image

The other hemisphere of our brain is populated with EROIers, Malthusiasts,
the Club of Rome, 2012ers, and doomers (see link to New Yorker below) of
various stripes. Of course, one is only a "doomer" if one turns out to
have been wrong. If one turns out to have been right, the correct term is
"visionary."

We inhabit the bicameral mind of Joan of Arc or Nostradamus, and wonder,
are the voices to be taken literally, or can we just write them off to
hallucination?

President Obama's inaugural address, a bouquet of big tent politics with
fragrant notes of a tent revival meeting, embraced both ends of that
schizoid spectrum.

Who could argue with this:

    . our time of standing pat, of protecting narrow interests and
putting off unpleasant decisions -- that time has surely passed. Starting
today, we must pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and begin again the
work of remaking America. 

The problem is, those two very agreeable sentences were preceded by this:

    We remain the most prosperous, powerful nation on Earth. Our workers
are no less productive than when this crisis began. Our minds are no less
inventive, our goods and services no less needed than they were last week
or last month or last year. Our capacity remains undiminished. But. 

Now, saying we are of undiminished capacity is something a great many
people would take issue with, and have. Let me quote a few.

On the bioregional list David Haenke said,

    We no longer have the vast bounties of nature to burn, and the enormous
capacity of nature's sinks to absorb, dilute, and neutralize the entropies
of a deliberately wasteful economy. Mr. Obama purports to go back to the
playbook of 1933 and Lord Keynes and rev up the economy (viz.: burn
resources, primarily fossil energy) to get us back "growth". As well, the
total level of public and private debt for the U.S. has reached levels that
are barely calculable, and then unfathomable. It's neither 1933 nor Kansas
anymore. China took it as collateral. 

To Clusterfuck Nation, (link below) James Howard Kunstler said,

    Credit may be in extremely short supply this year, and hence crops may
be in short supply as we turn the corner into spring and summer. Just as in
the case of WalMart versus Main Street, the reform of farming in America is
one of those "changes" much larger than most of us imagine. I'd go so far
to say that a large proportion of young people now in college will find
themselves not working in office cubicles, but in some way or other in
farming.. 

At Club Orlov, Dmitry Orlov (link below) said,

    According to the latest International Energy Agency projections, the
half-life of industrial civilization can be capped at about 17 years: it's
all downhill from here. All industrial countries will be forced to rapidly
deindustrialize on this time scale, but the one that has spent the last
century building an infrastructure that has no future -- based on little
houses interconnected by cars, with all of the accompanying moribund,
unmaintainable infrastructure -- is virtually guaranteed to fall the
hardest. An American's two greatest enemies are his house and his car. But
try telling that to most Americans, and you will get ridicule,
consternation, and disbelief. 

>From The Automatic Earth, (link below) Ilargi said,

    Our economies are shrinking, not growing, and they will continue on
down that path for a very long time. Perpetual growth is over, and if you
look closely, it has been for at least 30 years. Education, health care and
many other fields have become more expensive and less affordable during
that time. Who needed day-care in the 1960's? Who could not afford to go
to a doctor? Today, both parents need to work full-time -- or more -- just
to pay the monthly bills. It wasn't like that in the 1960s. Not at all. So
were our parents so much less happy than we are? Not at all.

    The fallacy of perpetual growth has led us into a sense of entitlement
that is based on complete blindness and utterly wrong assumptions. If we
are not awake enough to lave that behind, we will be the reason for
fighting in the streets, in our own Barbie neighborhoods. If we want to
prevent that from happening, we need to take not one, but 826 steps back.
But the president of Hope and Belief talks about resuming the economy of
growth. That is not possible. People need a reality check. They need to
adjust to living on less personal, corporeal, space. If you think or hope
that the PM of Iceland is the last one to be thrown out by the wayside, you
need to start thinking instead of believing. 

Obama was right about one thing. This is not a crisis that can be solved by
government. It won't be fixed by printing money. It will be a rough slog,
no matter what, but to repeat again what our first President said at Valley
Forge,

Let it be told to the future world that in the depth of winter, when
nothing but hope and virtue could survive, that the city and the country,
alarmed at one common danger, came forth to meet it.

Now, truth be told, old George knew that the odds of the American
Revolution succeeding at that point were slim to none, and this is as much
a wishful recruiting statement as a St. Crispin's Day rallying cry (link
below), but it contains some nuggets of eternal truth. As Mr. Kunstler
said,

Many Americans of good will also stand ready to face reality, to roll up
our sleeves, ditch the video games and the Nascar and the microwaved cheese
treats, and the internet porn and all the other noxious,
narcolepsy-inducing distractions of our time, and put our shoulders to the
wheel to haul this nation into a plausible future.

So if, in distant days, our progeny look back to where we coalesced our
will, assembled our tattered permaculture army, joined hands between city
and country, laid back the carbon under our desertifying farmland, and
Hudson-River-landed our rusting steel spaceship into a brighter, more
realistic future with a sustainable volume of frugal humans living in
harmony with nature, then let them say this is where it began.

We listened to the voices in our head and we picked up the banner and
marched.


Albert Bates is the author of Post-Petroleum Survival Guide and Cookbook,
available from New Society, 2007. He directs the Ecovillage Training Center
at The Farm in Tennessee. Website: thefarm.org. 



From maryrose333 at att.net  Sun Jan 25 21:48:41 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 20:48:41 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] World Bank warns of worst
	recession since Great Depression
Message-ID: <000601c97f71$5fd311f0$1f7935d0$@net>



-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 5:38 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] World Bank warns of worst recession since
Great Depression


(To change your settings or unsubscribe please go to
http://lists.riseup.net/www/info/globalnetnews-summary)

World Bank warns of worst recession since Great Depression
DPA  | Wednesday, 10 December , 2008, 04:05
http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14815098

World Bank warns of worst recession since Great DepressionWashington: The
world could go through its worst recession since the Great Depression as a
massive financial crisis has slashed global investment and sharp drops in
commodity prices severely hurt poor-country exports, the World Bank warned
on Tuesday.

The global development bank slashed its previous estimates for global
growth to 2.5 percent in 2008 and 0.9 percent in 2009, well below the
three-percent rate typically considered the dividing line between global
growth and contraction.

"The financial crisis is now likely to result in the most serious recession
since the 1930s," said the World Bank's chief economist Justin Lin, as the
group released its annual report on the global economy.

The current economic slowdown was notable for both its length and breadth
across all regions of the world, leading to a contraction in the most
wealthy nations and a sharp slowdown in emerging countries, the bank said.

IMF forecasts global recession in 2009

The bank's analysis pointed to a number of indicators of a dramatic
slowdown. Global trade volumes will contract for the first time since 1982.
Worldwide investment will fall 50 percent in 2009, compared to 2007.

The financial crisis has cut access to loans in advanced and developing
countries, pulling investment out of poorer nations and reducing consumer
spending.

A record surge in energy, food and metal prices in the first half of 2008
plunged between 130 and 155 million new people into poverty as families
struggle to pay for food, the bank said.

But the sharp drop in commodity prices since the summer has hurt poorer
nations' exports and added to the global recession. The World Bank still
expected commodity prices to remain far higher in the future than in the
last decade as emerging countries continue to use up more resources.

Oil prices will average $75 per barrel in 2009, the bank said. Crude oil is
currently below $40 but stood above $140 per barrel in July.

G-20 seeks reforms in financial system

The forecasts are dramatically lower than the 2.2-percent growth in 2009
predicted by the bank's sister organisation, the International Monetary
Fund.

Lin urged all countries with the ability to increase government spending to
use it to boost domestic demand. But he warned that wealthy nations must
invest in projects that will spur long-term growth, such as by investing in
clean energy or infrastructure. 



From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan 26 03:27:26 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:27:26 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Wikispaces Message: monetary and fiscal reform
In-Reply-To: <20090126023809.82142E0C05C@w11.wikispaces.com>
Message-ID: <492726.89423.qm@web27406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

??? This might be of interest. I not quite sure of the accuracy of the link material but some people may like to comment.
?
?
?????? R.Searle

--- On Mon, 26/1/09, Wikispaces <do-not-reply at wikispaces.com> wrote:

From: Wikispaces <do-not-reply at wikispaces.com>
Subject: Wikispaces Message: monetary and fiscal reform
To: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Monday, 26 January, 2009, 2:38 AM




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irene_fiori, a member of Wikispaces, has sent you a message. Please visit the url below to respond; do not reply to this email.
Dear all, I added a page entitled Monetary and Fiscal Reform summarizing my thoughts on the topic. The address is here below:

http://model-economy.wikispaces.com/Monetary+and+Fiscal+Reform

I would be delighted to discuss further. Any and all feedback is welcome.

Irene 


View this message in your browser
To turn off email followups, sign in at http://www.wikispaces.com/, click on My Account and switch "Email When You Receive a Message" to "No". Please email help at wikispaces.com if you have any questions.


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan 26 03:32:37 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:32:37 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Barclays shares rise
Message-ID: <415919.18519.qm@web27405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Barclays shares rise after letter

1 hour 42 mins ago 

Print Story 

Barclays shares rose more than 25% after an open letter from the bank's under-pressure bosses helped settle investor nerves. Skip related content



Related photos / videos

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Related Hot Topic: Financial Crisis 

Have your say: Financial Crisis
Chairman Marcus Agius and chief executive John Varley wrote the letter to "address the principal causes of concern which we are hearing".
Barclays shares have tumbled for the past fortnight and the bank lost almost half of its value last week amid fears that it will have to turn to the Government for funding help.
But Mr Agius and Mr Varley said Barclays would not need to ask the Government for any financial assistance.
Barclays shunned a taxpayer bail-out last year, but has raised more than ?7 billion through a fundraising which leaves almost a third of the bank in the hands of Middle East investors.
The letter, released through the stock market, said the capital raising gave Barclays more than the required funds to provide a buffer against future losses.
Barclays had "confidence that our capital resources are sufficient to manage Barclays safely and prudently even in these difficult markets", it added.
"Our starting point is that Barclays has ?36 billion of committed equity capital and reserves; we are well-funded, and we are profitable. However, we know that our stakeholders want to see the detailed figures for 2008 as quickly as possible."
The bank will now release its financial results early, on February 9, and the letter said profits would be "well ahead" of the ?5.3 billion forecast in the City.
Mr Agius and Mr Varley said the bank would announce write-downs amounting to ?8 billion from the credit market exposures of Barclays Capital in its upcoming financial report.

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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan 26 03:35:00 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:35:00 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [nuenergy] ** All About Solar Panels and Solar Power
	Installation **
In-Reply-To: <glhsrm+htes@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <312543.53069.qm@web27402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Sun, 25/1/09, dustinnrg <dustinnrg at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: dustinnrg <dustinnrg at yahoo.com>
Subject: [nuenergy] ** All About Solar Panels and Solar Power Installation **
To: nuenergy at yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 25 January, 2009, 2:27 PM






With much of the focus today on how to save energy and use more
renewable energy resources, the hot topic (excuse the pun) that many
buildings contractors and home owners are talking about are solar panels
and how to install residential solar panel and commercial solar panel
elements.

You will find today that solar panel manufacture and solar wholesaler
companies are starting up all over the world. There are also tons of
solar contractor positions that are opening up as a result of the high
demand for a solar energy system to be installed at people's homes or
offices. The solar rebate is something that many people have also begun
to recognize and take notice of and this has increased the demand for
solar electric energy even more.

Visit Solar Panel Solution http://www.1st- solarenergy. blogspot. com/ Today
__._,_.___ 
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan 26 03:52:25 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:52:25 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
In-Reply-To: <013d01c97f76$f147c1d0$7f82c67c@HomePC>
Message-ID: <575479.13545.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Mon, 26/1/09, William Hugh McGunnigle <wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz> wrote:

From: William Hugh McGunnigle <wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Monday, 26 January, 2009, 5:28 AM

HI Kenneth
                   I am having coubts about the electoral system here from a 
reforming standpoint. Ironically, under the old FPP system [your system] we 
always had the chance of gaining a working paliamentsary majority elected as 
a minority popular vote government where we could have implemented our 
reforms under a simple majority in Parliament. under MMP we would need am 
absolute majority of the popular vote to get the majority we need in 
Parliament which is far less likely.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kenneth Palmerton" <kenpalmerton at cix.compulink.co.uk>
To: <socialcredit at elistas.com>
Cc: <kenpalmerton at cix.compulink.co.uk>
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 1:36 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
"Depression"


> In-Reply-To: <008101c95bfc$34c03df0$d681c67c at HomePC>
> Dear William.
>
> I sympathise with your problems of conscience, there has indeed been a
> crisis of political philosophy here in the UK, as indeed I think there has
> been worldwide.
>
> Even the confusion between "Labour" and "Socialist"
has blurred the
> divisions between political parties offering  themselves to the electorate
> for election to Parliament. I do not know when last there were Socialists
> in power here. You offer Attlee, but I wonder even at that.
>
> As for TINA (Thatcher) what sort of Tory would you say she was ? For me
> she was an unreconstructed Nineteenth Century Liberal :-( A mode of
> thinking that the current Liberal Democrats, or the former Liberal party
> had moved beyond more than a hundred years ago.
>
> She set us back at least a generation here. And not just gender equality
> :-(((
>
> You refer to a Communist upsurge in post WW2 Britain. What do you mean ?
> If you mean what came to be called the post war settlement, that was not
> even the idea of the Socialists that the people swept to power in 1945.
>
> Those ideas were the brainchild of pre war Liberals. With the only
> problems in my estimation being that it was centralising Socialists that
> had the opportunity to implement them, with the inevitable result that
> Tories, who had always hated social progress for the majority, were able
> to attack and dismantle some of them when their electoral turn came
> around:-(
>
> I have watched with great interest the NZ political scene, particularly
> the struggles of monetary reformers. In fact when you turned to a more
> sensible electoral system I thought that there was a serious chance of
> such ideas coming to the fore.
>
> I am still watching, and waiting :-)))
>
> Ken.
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
> *From:* "William Hugh McGunnigle" <wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz>
> *To:* <socialcredit at elistas.com>
> *Date:* Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:51:52 +1300
>
> HI Kenneth
>                Ironically I am a NZ citizen by adoption and hold dual
> nationality,  I spent the first 30 years od my life in the UK and was an
> active member of the proper conservative party of the 1950's. I left
the
> UK
> because the political changes I could see coming were nort ones that I
> could
> accept. Once in NZ I shopped around until I found a political party that
> agreed most closely to my personal belief, and that proved to be the SC
> political league. as it was called then. It was quite a shock for me top
> find that my old consercvative philosphy  coincided so much with their
> views. Quite candidly, I do not believe that any of the political parties
> represented in the present UK House of Commoms could jistify my support.
> Particularly the present Labour party, which for me has betrayed
> everything
> that ot is supposed to represent. This I feel has been true of all Labour
> governmentd in the UK since the Harold Wilson era. Atlee was the last true
> Laboutr prime minister in the UK,  and his government in 1945-51 was
> instrumental in preventing a big communist upsurge in post WW2 Britain. IT
> is most unfortunater that he decided in 1951 to call an election after
> only
> q year in office because I believe that had he toughed it out by 1954 the
> economic climate would have produced  conditions that would have returned
> him to office with a bigger majoriuty. as it did for the conservatives in
> 1955 and 1960. I do not believe that the Thatcherite era would have took
> place if that had been the case to the immense benefit of the UK.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kenneth Palmerton"
<kenpalmerton at cix.compulink.co.uk>
> To: <socialcredit at elistas.com>
> Cc: <kenpalmerton at cix.compulink.co.uk>
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 5:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
"Depression"
>
>
>> In-Reply-To: <003d01c955c8$4c978b70$ba81c67c at HomePC>
>> Dear William.
>>
>> You speak of a "Socialist group of parties" in the UK.
>>
>> Please tell me more. For I have been involved in main stream politics
> here
>> for more than Fifty years as a party activist, and believe that such
an
>> animal, if it ever existed, is critically endangered :-)))
>>
>> Certainly not represented in Parliament, and hardly visible in local
>> Government either.
>>
>> In fact you Kiwis stole back probably the last living example,Brian
> Gould.
>> He left us having made a devastating video about the relationship
between
>> the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the bank of england.
>>
>> Austin Mitchell, MP for Great Grimsby, is probably the closest we get
> now,
>> though come to think of it he was a Kiwi too :-)
>>
>> Ken.
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>>
>> *From:* "William Hugh McGunnigle"
<wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz>
>> *To:* <socialcredit at elistas.com>
>> *Date:* Thu, 4 Dec 2008 17:35:27 +1300
>>
>> HI John et al
>>               Socialists cannot subscribe to any monetary system that
>> would alter the status quo. If they did their pet policies would
>> evapourate, because the present needs of the lowest paid members of
the
>> population would no longer exist, and their arguments about
"taking over"
>> the means of production etc would no longer be valid. SC is a method
of
>> ensuring that everyonge can attain to basic needs without resorting to
>> crippling debt or state hand outs. SC is as much a problem for
Socialism
>> as it is for the converse. both systems would benefit by adopting SC
but
>> entrenched power cliques see SC as a direct threat to their monopoly
of
>> monetary control.
>>   Bill McGunnigle
>>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>>  From: John G Rawson
>>  To: Socred elistas
>>  Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 7:51 PM
>>  Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
"Depression"
>>
>>
>>  Thanks, Wally. It's all becoming so transparently clear. But
nobody
>> important seems to be catching on.  Particularly not among the
> Socialists.
>>  Regards.
>>
>>  John R.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---
>>  From: wmklinck at shaw.ca
>>  To: socialcredit at elistas.com
>>  Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:31:58 -0700
>>  Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
"Depression"
>>
>>  The system, being increasingly non- self-liquidating causes the
>> financial world to resort to a proliferating series of evermore
tenuous
>> artifices in an attempt to make an unworkable system function.  When
the
>> debt load becomes stretched to the limit of any hope of debts being
>> serviced confidence breaks and the whole thing comes down like a deck
of
>> cards, making nonsense of all previous denials that the financial
system
>> is unsound.  Then the government, if wholesale ruination is to be
> avoided,
>> is more or less compelled to intervene with injection of more of the
same
>> debt poison which caused the collapse in the first place.  They just
>> borrow more money from the banking system and carry on by further
>> inflation of the money supply with it concomitant upward pressure on
the
>> price-level, the inherent deficiency of purchasing-power being set off
>> further into the future by transforming the debt of the private sector
>> into permanent state debt.  Of course we are all expected to work
harder
>> and longer to meet the burden of inflating prices and increased
taxation
>> resulting from interest charges on bloating state debt.  Of course,
>> attempts by the state to reverse this situation by endeavoring to run
on
>> balanced budgets and to pay down state debt just constricts the
economy
>> while leaving the community of lesser governments and individuals to
>> shoulder the burden of the false debts that are increasing
exponentially.
>> We now witness the futility and tragedy of this unrealistic policy in
the
>> recent so-called credit "meltdown" and the inevitable
contraction of the
>> economy which must come from the deflation.  But it serves those who
>> confiscate the wealth of others and those who would enhance the power
of
>> the state by proposing increasing state intervention in the lives of
the
>> people--serving also the policy of forcing nations increasingly into
>> mergers leading to an eventual global government..
>>  Sincerely
>>  Wally Klinck
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  On 24-Nov-08, at 12:23 PM, John G Rawson wrote:
>>
>>
>>    That is correct here too. I guess worldwide it was decided to
abasndon
>> what our Monetary Commission referred to as a "blunt
instrument" for
>> controlling the money supply in favour of controlling the
"willing
>> borrower" aspect by varying the price, i.e. interest rates.
>>    But that doesn't alter the fact that the banking system needs
reserves
>> for interbank transactions, and in the present situation, to shore up
>> payments for withdrawals of deposits.  In effect, this is what the
>> "bailout" is trying to do.
>>    Amazing how governments are required to keep out of banking, 
except
>> when the banks need help!
>>    Regards.
>>
>>    John R.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>>    From: wmklinck at shaw.ca
>>    To: socialcredit at elistas.com
>>    Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 01:03:21 -0700
>>    Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
"Depression"
>>
>>    My understanding is that in Canada reserve ratio requirements were
>> discontinued some time ago for banks operating under Federal
Charter--and
>> that only certain capital requirements remain.
>>    Wally
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    On 23-Nov-08, at 6:42 PM, John G Rawson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>      Sorry. It is standard for banking anywhere.  They can not lend
their
>> liabilities. That applies to savings banks too, but it seems most of
them
>> draw on commercial banks to back them.
>>      Money supply M1 (or M2 or higher) includes, as its major
component
>> "demand deposits with the financial institutions". That is
where the
> money
>> paid into a bank goes. The only ways banks could lend "money paid
in to
>> them" would be if the deposits were reduced when this happened
(they are
>> not) or if by some way the money magically doubled as it was paid in
to
>> the bank. That is not the point at which it is considered to be
>> multiplied.
>>      Every new bank loan results in a creation of that amount of new
>> money 'out of nothing'.
>>      But, of course, banks need reserves to guard their deposits. And
>> also, under fractional reserve banking, any bank that suffers complete
>> loss of confidence by the public must go broke. That is where the
>> relevance of the reserve/deposit ratio comes in.
>>      Regards.    John R
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>      From: telergy at bigpond.com
>>      To: socialcredit at elistas.com
>>      Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:19:07 +1100
>>      Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis"
and
> "Depression"
>>
>>
>>
>>      Well John R
>>
>>      it differs in different Nation States. In the US, I think Clinton
>> removed the seperation of lending banks and investment banks,so that
they
>> can do both.
>>      Australia's bank regulators kept ratios to about 10%, quite
healthy
>> compared to US and Europe.
>>      George Jr and Greenspan don't believe in regulation.
>>      The best overview I get is from  following speeches at BIS (Bank
of
>> International Settlements) where central bankers they openly talkabout
>> increasing liquidity by lowering the ratios for their banks.
>>
>>      http://www.bis.org/list/cbspeeches/page_6.htm
>>
>>      My easy english version goes
>>      "Imagine a money lender around AD 10. He has a bag of gold,
and
>> people want to borrow some. More people want a loan than the amount of
>> gold he has. He realises that, by issuing tokens, he can extend credit
to
>> all who want some, assuming that the debtors are a good risk, and will
be
>> paying it back on time."
>>
>>
>>      cheers
>>      Graeme Taylor
>>
>>      ps Whatever has happened to all that gold in Fort Knox?
>>
>>
>>        ----- Original Message -----
>>
>>        Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:36 AM
>>        Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis"
and
>> "Depression"
>>
>>
>>        It is also a totally wrong explanation, and a not uncommon
error.
>> 2% reserve ratio means $100 of loans for every ?2 of RESERVES. Since
> loans
>> create deposits, that ratio could never be attained under any
>> circumstances where deposits are concerned. The writer forgot that
bank
>> deposits are their liabilities, and can never be lent.
>>        Regards.
>>
>>        John R.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>        From: wmklinck at shaw.ca
>>        To: socialcredit at elistas.com
>>        Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 00:08:02 -0700
>>        Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis"
and
>> "Depression"
>>
>>        This not really an alternate explanation.  It is simply the
false
>> explanation which has been promulgated from establishment sources.  We
> are
>> well aware that every imaginable artifice involving the extension of
debt
>> has been devised to make the economy function under a fundamentally
and
>> fatally defective and unworkable financial system.  What do you mean
by
>> saying that you are "pretty well over the soc red concept"? 
 Do you mean
>> that you possess a good understanding of it?--or that you hold little
or
>> no hope of it being an effective solution to financial and economic
>> problems of the industrialized world?  Social Crediters intend to make
it
>> relevant and we cannot afford to heed defeatist opinions.  We are
>> currently provided with an almost unprecedented opportunity to advance
> our
>> cause and we must press on with increasing intensity.  So--down with
>> hesitation and doubt and on with the job!  I would not hold out much
hope
>> from Barak Obama's term of office.  Already he has declared his
intent to
>> provide "jobs" for the population--hardly a Social Credit
policy.
>>
>>
>>        Wally
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>        On 21-Nov-08, at 8:47 PM, Graeme Taylor wrote:
>>
>>
>>          Herewith an alternate explanation
>>
>>          Because Green spam believed in the market and self-correction
of
>> itself, he saw no need to regulate the lending (reserve) ratios of the
>> banks. Thus, it went below 2%.
>>          That is, for every two dollars deposit, a hundred in loans.
>>
>>          Europe's banks, attempting to maintain market share, 
dropped
>> their ratios down to 4 or 5%. Easy money for borrowing, and a race to
the
>> bottom.
>>
>>          The CHinese Banks, in August began by dropping their ratio
for
>> their Rural Bank to below 17% so as to increase liquidity in the hope
> that
>> rual incomes could start to catch up to urban ones.
>>          Now, I guess, they have dropped their Infrastructure
Bank's
>> ratios as an economic stimulus package.
>>
>>          Gordon Brown thought the best thing to do is to invest in the
>> banks. Yep. More money in the coffers helps raise the lending ratios
of
>> their banks.
>>
>>          With a 2% ratio, (fractional reserve money backed by
virtually
>> nothing), only a small proportion of debtors going bankrupt sends the
> bank
>> belly up.
>>
>>          I do hope that Barack gets better advice than George Jr got.
>>
>>          I'm pretty over the soc cred concept. Seriously, with up
to 20%
>> of the economy being illicit (drugs, extortion), no perfect formula is
>> gonna work, same as with people going bankrupt.
>>
>>          cheers
>>          Graeme Taylor
>>
>>
>>            ----- Original Message -----
>>            From: Wallace Klinck
>>            To: socialcredit at elistas.com
>>            Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 10:12 PM
>>            Subject: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis"
and
>> "Depression"
>>
>>
>>            This message has been sent to all Members of the Canadian
>> House of Commons:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>            I am forwarding a document outlining the basic and
underlying,
>> as opposed to superficial, causes of the current disastrous and
ruinous
>> credit "crisis" and the primary essential remedial measures
required to
>> effect an honest and stable financial system with it corollary, a
viable
>> producing and consuming economic system.  Also attached is a short PDF
>> showing how the Keynesian equations can be modified to achieve these
> ends.
>> (Not included in this posting.)
>>
>>            Yours sincerely
>>            Wallace M. Klinck
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>            FINANCE, DEBT AND DEPRESSION
>>            The so-called economic and financial "experts"
are apparently
>> totally oblivious to the fact that the financial price-system is
>> fundamentally and increasingly non- self-liquidating. Consequently,
they
>> blame the credit "meltdown" and ensuing economic collapse on
excessive
>> extension of loans (debt) issued primarily without adequate regulatory
>> legislation. The essential problem is that while the convention is
that
>> industry, in order to remain viable, must recover its financial costs
in
>> final prices, the existing financial system makes this a mathematical
>> impossibility.
>>            Final price appears at the retail level. Consumers, being
at
>> the end of the economic process, are required through expenditure of
> their
>> income, to liquidate all the financial costs of production. That is a
>> perfectly reasonable and accepted accountancy convention. The crux of
the
>> liquidity failure is that, primarily due to the need for industry to
add
>> to retail prices certain increasing allocated charges in respect of
>> capital, which do not constitute payment of income in the same cycle
of
>> production, consumers are increasingly short of income by which to
meet
>> the total retail prices necessarily charged by industry.
>>            Obviously, if nothing intervened the economy would shut
down.
>> Of course, what happens is that the consumer is evermore under
necessity
>> of borrowing (contracting debt obligations) from the banking system,
that
>> creates out of nothing the money that it lends as a repayable debt.
>> Eventually the debt overload so erodes the liquidity of the financial
>> system and the ability of consumers to contract and service debt that
>> consumers can no longer keep borrowing and/or lenders cease to provide
>> loans (in preparation for a "clean out" by foreclosure upon
the assets of
>> the people who have laboured to produce and acquire real wealth).
>>            There is nothing new about this confiscatory process. It
has
>> been characteristic of the credit system for hundreds of years_going
back
>> before  creation of the Bank of England in 1694. It can only be a
>> deliberate policy on the part of the few who are insiders "in the
know"
> to
>> confiscate property and centralize both ownership of property and
>> political power.
>>            If the "experts" advice were followed and lending
was simply
>> restricted, this would just slow down the development of economic
> activity
>> in spite of the national real capacity to conduct and expand that
>> activity. This would intensify the problem of providing
"jobs" with which
>> they seem to be so strangely concerned_showing again a complete
confusion
>> of mind about the purpose of production_which purpose is not to
provide
>> work for humanity but to provide desired goods and services with
maximum
>> efficiency_which process involves minimization of all costs, including
>> that of labour. The purpose of production is consumption_not the
creation
>> of work.
>>            The unfathomable fact is that so-called orthodox
"economists"
>> and public policy makers think first of financial factors and last of
>> real, physical factors_ and mindlessly accept the financial system as
a
>> determinant of physical activity. Money is simply a unit of account
and
>> should merely reflect, and never control, our physical activity.  The
>> whole thing, being a complete departure from reality, is quite
psychotic.
>>            We are told by our _expert_ advisers that we are being cast
>> into an economic recession or slow down in actual physical production.
>> Have we suddenly lost our energy resources (our gas, petroleum and
>> electrical power), our mines and minerals, our information and
>> transportation services, our forests, our cultural heritage of
know-how
>> and production expertise, etc.? Have our citizens suddenly decided to
sit
>> down on their posteriors and not do anything any more_has everyone
>> suddenly become divested of motivation, intelligence and capability?
Our
>> course not. On a physical level everything remains essentially
unchanged
>> with an already astonishing technological efficiency and productivity
> only
>> increasing exponentially over time. Yet, we are informed by the
_experts_
>> that we are slipping inevitably into a recession involving the slow
down
>> of real production. Anybody who believes this to be unavoidable, as
> though
>> some consequence natural law, and is so perverse as to continue to
> believe
>> it in the face of actual facts, probably fully deserves the
consequences
>> of their stupidity.
>>            As, William Aberhart, Social Credit Premier of the Province
of
>> Alberta said years ago, "If the people haven't suffered
enough, it is
>> their God-given right to suffer some more." I think people are
>> guilt-ridden, because of sedulously inculcated false moral
imperatives,
>> such as the adulation of work for it_s own sake. Consequently they are
>> masochistic, and therefore welcome misery as a penance and cathartic
for
>> their induced artificial and misguided feelings of guilt. The whole
thing
>> is quite mad.
>>            The physical cost of production is fully met when goods
arrive
>> completed at retail. There is no need whatsoever for consumer debt.
What
>> is required before all else is a secondary flow of consumer credits
>> injected extraneously into the price-system without debt as Consumer
>> Dividends and to effect Compensated (lowered) Retail Prices at point
of
>> sale in order to permit consumers full, immediate and dynamic access
to
>> all retail goods_and to balance the price-system, so allowing business
to
>> recover its financial costs so that it can continue to serve the
> community
>> if consumers so desire.
>>            As C. H. Douglas, founder of the Social Credit movement who
>> offered the only realistic alternative to currently accepted and
>> destructive Keynesian debt finance, said, "society is hypnotized
and only
>> a drastic dehypnotization can save it." How much abuse does it
take to
>> arouse a placid and somnolent public?
>>            Wallace M. Klinck
>>                     wmklinck at shaw.ca
>>                                       November 21, 2008
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
at
>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> You're subscribed to this list with the email telergy at bigpond.com
>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan 26 04:13:05 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:13:05 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] UK Councils could perform the basic duty of Banks!
Message-ID: <357128.34876.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Dear All
?
?????????? On the radio I heard that UK Councils could fulfill the basic duties of banks. Essex Council is apparently doing somethng very similiar to Birmingham.
?
Robert Searle
?
Council-run bank to help Birmingham residents beat the credit crunch
Published by Jon Land for 24dash.com in Local Government 
Friday 5th December 2008 - 8:59am



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TODAY IN LOCAL GOVERNMENT

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Council-run bank to help Birmingham residents beat the credit crunch
Radical plans to create a council-run bank have been unveiled in Birmingham, to support the local economy during the credit crunch.

Leader of the city's council, Mike Whitby, announced plans to set up its own municipal bank, to offer loans and banking services direct to local people and businesses.

At the briefing on Thursday he said: "We once ran a municipal bank, and given the recent market failings, I think the time might be right for us to do so again."

Options under consideration include using the council's access to financial markets to provide asset backed finance to businesses in the city; and seeking partners to intervene in the local mortgage market to help bring stability.

Further proposals under consideration include an option which would see the council buy physical assets for local businesses and lease them back to them.

Councillor Whitby continued: "Birmingham has a long tradition of innovation in municipal government. This has included the provision of gas, water, electricity, public transport and housing.

"The credit crunch has put intolerable pressure on many small yet sound businesses, people trying to get on the property ladder and those seeking to invest in the city.

"I have asked officers to look at a range of proposals as to how this could operate in reality."

This 'reverse-style PFI' could provide the business with capital and security, while enabling the council to use the asset as security against which to increase its borrowing. 





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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan 26 05:16:22 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Searle)
Date: 26 Jan 2009 12:16:22 +0000
Subject: [GJM] Sky joins BBC on Gaza screening ban - Yahoo! News UK
Message-ID: <mailman.0.1232972187.23288.discussion_globaljusticemovement.net@globaljusticemovement.net>

Robert Searle (dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk) has sent you a news article
X-Originating-IP: 77.238.190.42

--------------------
Personal message text:

Dear All,

      I find it unbelievable that Sky has joined in the BBC Ban. How evil,and stupid can this get, when any fool(including me) can see that they are wrong. It has nothing to do with politics but it has everything to do with HUMANITARIANISM.

Robert Searle.

--------------------


 
Sky joins BBC on Gaza screening ban
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090126/tuk-sky-joins-bbc-on-gaza-screening-ban-dba1618.html
============================================================




From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan 26 05:30:13 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:30:13 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Clarity in Complexity.......................................
Message-ID: <306070.90937.qm@web27407.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Dear All,
?
??????????? This may be of interest.
?
?????????????????????????????? http://www.shiftn.com/
?
?
Robert Searle.


      
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From mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 23 01:59:00 2009
From: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com (Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 14:29:00 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [GJM] Conference on the Global Financial Crash and a sustainable
	future for humanity
Message-ID: <202841.308.qm@web94904.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

Dear colleagues in seeking socially just, ecologically safe and morally desirable finance system,
?
I am sharing the mail on conference on the Conference on teh Global Financial Crisis that was organised by Global Vision.
?
With warmest regards
?
Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam
--- On Fri, 23/1/09, Moeen Yaseen <myaseen at globalvision2000.com> wrote:

From: Moeen Yaseen <myaseen at globalvision2000.com>
Subject: Re: [GJM] Precursor Engineering with multiplication of carbon-neutral leisure and prayer 5 times a day
To: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com
Date: Friday, 23 January, 2009, 2:58 AM



#yiv1517725239 p {margin:0;}


Dear Dr.Alam
Salam Alaikum,
?
Thanks for your email.?We have not been able to meet as yet but do notify your network in India about the proceedings of the Global Vision 2000 conference on the Global Financial Crash and a sustainable future for humanity which took place in London on December 13 2008. The details are now on our homepage at www.globalvision2000.com with recommendations. I can also confirm that Islam Channel the English medium satellite channel will be broadcasting our conference globally in February 2009.
?Let me what work you are doing in India also and the state of the Indian economy.
?
?Regards
?
?Moeen Yaseen
?
?


      Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address
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From ceasig at gmail.com  Sat Jan 24 05:18:44 2009
From: ceasig at gmail.com (Centre For Ecological Audit,
	Social Inclusion & Governance)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:48:44 +0530
Subject: [GJM] Carbon Neutral Neighbourhood DIscussions/Consultations for
	TRANSITION UNITED STATES: [USCO] UPCOMING TRANSITION TUTORIALS
Message-ID: <31f677a30901240418h3d1e18ean581a8f5b86a02908@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Mary,

You may like the attached for further building the processes. CEASIG is
organising Carbon Neutral Neighbourhood Discussions as we all have
neighbourhoods whereever we are. May be the attached is helpful.

For CEASIG

Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam



On 1/24/09, mary rose <maryrose333 at att.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TRANSITION UNITED STATES [mailto:mail at transitionus.ning.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 11:17 AM
> To: maryrose333 at att.net
> Subject: On TRANSITION UNITED STATES: [USCO] UPCOMING TRANSITION TUTORIALS
>
> A message to all members of TRANSITION UNITED STATES
>
> G'Day and G'2009
>
> Here is the link to improved communications among our communities:
> http://transitionus.ning.com/forum/topics/skype-and-transition-social
>
> * You've been wondering how to conduct great meetings within your community
> or around your state when localities are so distant from each other.
>
> * You've been asking for orientation how best to use our social networking
> sites....
>
> * You're an administrator on one of our states or country sites, wondering
> how to lay out and promote your site....
>
> * You're a member of an initiating group and wish you didn't have to spend
> time and gas to travel to meetings....
>
> * You're a trainer or speaker, dreaming about appearing in 24 locations,
> each with 50 people, without travel....
>
> The Skype User Group is hosting tutorials on how to use your computer as a
> telephone and create no-charge conference calls and "radio broadcasts" with
> Transitioners anywhere in the world. Use the page linked above to receive
> instruction, learn the requirements, review the schedule and get involved.
>
> Today: 8:00-9:30p.m.EST Eastern Timezone -- 22 January -- Skype -- Setting
> up groups/committees for no-travel meetings.
>
> Let me know if you have questions.
>
>
> Les Squires
> http://transitionus.ning.com
>
> Visit TRANSITION UNITED STATES at: http://transitionus.ning.com
>
> --
> To control which emails you receive on TRANSITION UNITED STATES, go to:
> http://transitionus.ning.com/profiles/profile/emailSettings
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discussion mailing list
> Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
>
> http://globaljusticemovement.net/mailman/listinfo/discussion_globaljusticemovement.net
>



-- 
Endeavouring for ecological safety ,social inclusion and distributive
justice for the renewable resource based livelihoods and habitats, Centre
For Ecological Audit, Social Inclusion and Governace (CEASIG) , an
initiative of Labour League Foundation and Sufi Trust , Delhi aims for
socially inclusive and ecologically safe future for all through building
capacities in ecological audit, ecologically safe networking ,advocacy,
interfaith dailogue  & other related domains for  multiplying personal,
community , governmental and corporate actions for ecologically safe
education, ecolgical audit and socially inclusive governance best practices
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan 26 10:16:39 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:16:39 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Can Obama save the US ecibint?
Message-ID: <748256.98680.qm@web27406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>





advertisement
dap("&PG=UK9MIN&AP=1089",300,250);

Can Obama save the US economy?

By John Stepek
January 23 2009


New US president, Barack Obama has it easy in one way. A good number of people think he can't be any worse than the outgoing president, so he starts with a lot of goodwill and public support.
Unluckily for him, that's about the only way he's got it easy. He's confronted with an economy in a massive bust, and everyone's expecting him to somehow deal with it. The latest data from the US is grim. In 2008, 2.6 million jobs were lost, the most since 1945. Consumers (remember the days when the investment mantra was "don't bet against the US consumer"?) are unsurprisingly, cutting back - retail sales in December were down a whopping 9.8% year-on-year.
House prices are still suffering
House prices and construction activity are still falling, and - arguably most importantly - the banking sector is still broken. As in the UK, more and more bad news keeps coming out of banks' balance sheets, and until there's some hint that things might get better, they won't be in a position to increase lending - in fact, they'll keep cutting back.
And there's probably a lot more turmoil to come in the financial system - New York University Professor Nouriel Roubini reckons that US banks face about $1.8 trillion in losses, yet they only have $1.4 trillion in capital. In other words, they are "borderline insolvent".
Recession for the forseeable future
The economy has been in recession since the start of 2008, and doesn't look like escaping any time soon. So Mr Obama is doing what most other governments do in times of crisis - throwing money at the problem and hoping some will stick.
He's got $350 billion left over from the $700 billion that was pushed through under his predecessor. And he looks like he'll get another $825 billion to back a two-year plan to be signed off shortly. So what's he planning to do with the money?
Obama's plans
Well, there's a ragbag of measures. Some will go on infrastructure - building roads, bridges, "green technology" and other work-creation projects. About $275 billion will go on tax cuts, with most workers getting a $500 tax credit. There's also plans to give money to local and state governments, many of whom are threatened with bankruptcy or having to slash public services, as tax receipts from housing go through the floor.
On top of all this, they're working on a plan to free up the lending market - hence, no doubt, the unusually high level of interest the US media has displayed over Britain's current banking crisis - partly by buying and restructuring mortgages to give more direct help to people threatened with recession.
Job creation
Obama reckons he can create about four million jobs with these packages. But there are plenty of objections. Some people don't like tax cuts, arguing that families will save them, rather than spend them (this is a stupid argument - what you save today, you can spend tomorrow - but that's a topic for another day). Others point out that infrastructure spending takes a while to feed through to the economy.
Still others argue that the scale of the stimulus just isn't enough. They reckon that over the next two years, the slump in the US will cost the country $2 trillion compared to what it would have produced in "normal" economic conditions. Therefore, the argument goes, Mr Obama needs to spend $2 trillion.
Allowing failures to happen
But even if there was enough money to make it "work", is this really the right solution? The US has already slashed interest rates to zero or thereabouts. The Federal Reserve is printing money and the government is planning to spend. The Keynesian machine is in overdrive.
But the truth is that the economy is still weak and getting weaker. And that's because this crisis needs to run its course. US house prices have to reach a point where they're cheap, and there isn't such a drastic over-supply. That's happening gradually - builders have stopped building, prices are still falling - and the less Mr Obama interferes with that process, the sooner it will hit bottom.
And when house prices have clearly bottomed out, suddenly everyone will see that there's light at the end of the tunnel for banks (well, the ones that are left standing anyway). Even if no one has worked out by then whether to nationalise the banking system or not, investors will be able to make a decent guess at a genuine worst-case scenario, and confidence will pick up again.
Consumers to the rescue - if they can
At that point, it would be much better to have consumers who have built up some savings and so are ready to spend. It won't be so great if the government has to raise taxes massively to pay off debts it ran up during the downturn. And remember that every dollar the government borrows is one that doesn't get loaned to the private sector, which "allocates capital" - ie spends - far more efficiently than the public sector. So the deeper the government gets into debt now, the harder it will be to eventually emerge from this slump.
In any case, the biggest threat the US - and indeed, the world - faces, lies outside its border, with the problems facing another country's economy. We all know that much of the west is running into trouble, but up until recently, there's been the vague hope that China and other emerging markets could somehow make up for it.
Emerging markets not so hopeful
Some of the smarter commentators are starting to doubt that. While many are still predicting GDP growth of at least 6-8% this year, that's a far cry from the 13% seen last year. But more importantly, it could be a lot worse than that. Chinese electricity output - a pretty solid indicator of demand in a country where official statistics are hard to trust (though that's not unusual) - fell year-on-year in October and November, for the first time since 2002.
That's because the manufacturing sector is collapsing. China's economic miracle has been built mainly on exporting cheap goods to the west. So when the west stops buying, China's in trouble.
Recipe for unrest
As Albert Edwards at Societe Generale warned recently, rising unemployment will mean rising social unrest. And that's the last thing the Chinese government wants. A population might put up with an oppressive system while standards of living are rising, but if things click into reverse, they start to wonder what they've sacrificed their freedom for.
So while the US is hoping that a weak dollar will boost its own manufacturing and export industries, the Chinese won't be keen to see the dollar weaken against the yuan. It'll want to keep as many of those factories open as possible, and that means keeping its goods cheap so that overseas consumers can buy them.
But if China intervenes to keep its currency weak against the dollar, that could easily spur protectionist measures from the US, leading to trade war. If that happens, and global trade collapses as a result, then we really could be looking at a repeat of the Great Depression.
John Stepek is the editor of MoneyWeek

Related links

Obama bounce already underway 
Obama seeks bailout funds 
US moves ahead on economic plan 
US budget deficit seen hitting $1.186 trillion 
The global economy




var jsFlyout = "";




      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan 26 11:01:26 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:01:26 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] TFE IN A NUTSHELL (JAN 2009)
Message-ID: <842256.83970.qm@web27402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All,
?
?????????? The following intro to TFE which appears on the p2pfoundation site should give one a reasonably clear idea of the subject.
?
R.Searle
?
?
?
TFE in a Nutshell 
Transfinancial Economics or TFE believes that taxes, and interest on loans are no longer necessary in the 21st century.It realizes too that money itself is essentially electronic information transmitted from one bank account to another. This means that with the right programming it could be directly controlled in special ways. In the future it would be possible to have these transactions largely identified by special ID Codes. 
?
?
This would notably apply to most retail goods, and services in the entire economy. This would mean that prices could be instantly checked at transaction, and transmitted via modified barcodes to the banks computers which would undertake instant inflation checks. With a largely accurate, and more scientific comprehension of the "content," volume,and velocity of transactions of the entire economy it would be possible with special computer programming to know how much new non-repayable money could be created, and transmitted at zero, low, or high inflation risk. 
?
?
At present, the above could only be achieved with to a very limited extent with little, or no serious inflation via "indirect" Economic Indicators. In TFE though we can produce a far more accurate macroeconomic account(so to speak) of the electronic workings of the economy so that new non-repayable money can be created, and transmitted successfully. 
However, just in case things were to go awry, there are a whole array of direct electronic inflation controls which are far more flexible, and advanced than price controls of the past.All this is revolutionary because it would mean essentially that:- 
?
?
a)New non-repayable money (largely monitored or otherwise, and possibly paid in instalments electonically)would be able to successfully increase productivity, and prosperity for businesses, and the public in a continous fashion. As such economic growth would also be able in the main to deal with consumer demand. 
?
?
b)Special financial incentives where necessary would ensure that businesses become genuinely sustainable, and environmentally friendly. Those projects which are commerciallly unviable but vital to the world would receive the necessary subsidies, grants, and interest free loans created ofcourse out of new non-repayable money. 
?
?
c)Charities, or NGOs concerned notably with high ethical issues,(eg. transparency in government, and business, human rights abuses, direct democracy,fairer wealth distribution, etc) and humanitarianism (eg.food relief, AIDs research, heart disease, etc) would probably be fully funded without need for fundraising 
What follows is a more detailed enlargement of what has been stated here along with other relevant information. 


?
?


      
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From maryrose333 at att.net  Mon Jan 26 17:11:46 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:11:46 -0800
Subject: [GJM] From Mother Jones - The People vs Dick Cheney
Message-ID: <000001c98013$db28fc00$917af400$@net>

The below is an interesting article. 

 

I can understand that it is beneficial if President Obama turns his
attention to the present

economic crisis,  and doesn't get caught  up in a swamp of alligators such
as action in this 

case may involve as this could take years to resolve.   I also understand
that many members

of Congress don't dare get involved in  this mess either because too many of
them were 

involved in it up to their necks along with Bush and Cheney, et al.     

 

But if no one calls this game, then the freeway is left open for future
presidents and other 

administration officials who follow,  to not be held accountable for their
actions.  And, it 

seems only prudent to  close the barn door here before any more chickens are
gobbled 

up by groups of unscrupulous foxes who may follow. 

 

Perhaps because the world at large was effected by their actions, a world
court is the 

proper place in which actions regarding  accountability should be heard.   

 

In closing, another thought that occurs though is whether or not the present
system Is at 

least partly, or perhaps mostly to blame, for what can you expect when
political parties vie 

against one another for control in order to serve their own interests in an
international arena.  

Perhaps we should be considering growing up and moving into another level of
consciousness 

while searching for a system that is more equitable and serves the best
interests of ALL concerned.         

 

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2009/01/the-people-vs-dick-cheney.ht
ml

 

I find it most interesting that all of my messages are labeled as SPAM.
There must be a contingency

out there that feels threatened by what I write. 

 

mary rose   

 




	
FutureDawning.org 

	


Mary Rose
 <mailto:dustysummerrose at gmail.com> dustysummerrose at gmail.com 

	


 
<https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=206159508347&src=client_sig_212_1_card_join&
invite=1&lang=en> Always have my latest info

 <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_card_sig&lang=en> Want
a signature like this?

 

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From stevenieman at mac.com  Mon Jan 26 20:06:35 2009
From: stevenieman at mac.com (Steve Nieman)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:06:35 -0800
Subject: [GJM] From Mother Jones - The People vs Dick Cheney
In-Reply-To: <000001c98013$db28fc00$917af400$@net>
References: <000001c98013$db28fc00$917af400$@net>
Message-ID: <700B89C4-7DF7-46AC-8500-5417CCAB4123@mac.com>

The system is mostly to blame, Mary.  And many people's tortured,  
divided, and undisciplined minds...

I am not at all threatened with what your write and forward as  
unofficial Internet editor.  Keep up your passion.  You're making a  
difference, including with me.

My main emphasis I ask you to consider, and which I daily strive for:  
balance.  There's a lot of evil in the human world.  But there are a  
lot of positive things going on, too.  And the sound of silence is a  
necessary requisite to allow the mind to see clearly and not be  
confused by many people's unintelligible chattering.

Regards,
Steve Nieman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On Jan 26, 2009, at 4:11 PM, mary rose wrote:

> In closing, another thought that occurs though is whether or not  
> the present system Is at
> least partly, or perhaps mostly to blame, for what can you expect  
> when political parties vie
> against one another for control in order to serve their own  
> interests in an international arena.
> Perhaps we should be considering growing up and moving into another  
> level of consciousness
> while searching for a system that is more equitable and serves the  
> best interests of ALL concerned.
>
> http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2009/01/the-people-vs-dick- 
> cheney.html
>
> I find it most interesting that all of my messages are labeled as  
> SPAM.  There must be a contingency
> out there that feels threatened by what I write.
>
> mary rose

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From maryrose333 at att.net  Mon Jan 26 20:24:21 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:24:21 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] David Korten: "Agenda for a New
	Economy: From Phantom Wealth to Real Wealth"
Message-ID: <000e01c9802e$c63c47a0$52b4d6e0$@net>

What we are witnessing here is David Korten, as a representative of the
BLESSED UNREST movement, which started with the "Cultural Creatives," or
"Integral Creatives" as some call them, movement back before the turn of the
century, speaking out in the interests of "we-the-people."  This movement
began as a "spontaneous woman-led movement" and has matured into what Paul
Hawken, author of the book, BLESSED UNREST, identifies as "the largest
movement the world has ever known." And, the new administration is going to
have a difficult time justifying its agenda as the representatives of this
movement hold Obama's feet to the fire through these "don't try to give us
any bull shit" dialogs headed up by people like Hawken and Korten who know
their way around the arena. Both of them are highly acclaimed authors of
several best-selling books on what's wrong with the economy and how to cure
it. Hawken predicted this depression and to the depth to which it would go
in his book: "The Next Economy" back in 1984. He followed it up with "The
Ecology of Commerce," and then "Natural Capitalism" before writing "Blessed
Unrest." Where we need to focus our attention, IMHO, is on this movement
first and what Obama is doing second. m r       

-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 4:53 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] David Korten: "Agenda for a New Economy:
>From Phantom Wealth to Real Wealth"


(To change your settings or unsubscribe please go to
http://lists.riseup.net/www/info/globalnetnews-summary)

David Korten: "Agenda for a New Economy: From Phantom Wealth to Real
Wealth"
January 26, 2009
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/26/david_korten_agenda_for_a_new

As President Barack Obama reveals more details of his $825 billion economic
stimulus plan, we turn to David Korten of YES! Magazine. In his new book,
Korten argues that the nation faces a monumental economic challenge that
goes far beyond anything being discussed in Congress. He writes that now is
an opportune moment to move forward an agenda to replace the failed
money-serving institutions of our present economy with the institutions of
a new economy dedicated to serving life. [includes rush transcript]

David Korten, co-founder and board chair of YES! Magazine. He is also a
former professor at Harvard University's Graduate School of Business and
the author of several books, including When Corporations Rule the World and
The Great Turning: From Empire to Earth Community. His newest book is
titled Agenda for a New Economy: From Phantom Wealth to Real Wealth
(Berrett-Koehler).

AMY GOODMAN: President Barack Obama has revealed more details of his $825
billion economic stimulus plan ahead of its introduction on the House floor
this week. In his first weekly radio address as president, Obama said the
plan would fund a new 3,000-mile electricity grid, computerize the
nation's health records, modernize schools, and repair and modernize the
country's mass transit system.

      PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: To accelerate the creation of a clean energy
economy, we will double our capacity to generate alternative sources of
energy, like wind, solar and biofuels, over the next three years. We'll
begin to build a new electricity grid that lay down more than 3,000 miles
of transmission lines to convey this new energy from coast to coast.
We'll save taxpayers $2 billion a year by making 75 percent of federal
buildings more energy efficient and save the average working family $350 on
their energy bills by weatherizing 2.5 million homes.

      To lower healthcare cost, cut medical errors and improve care,
we'll computerize the nation's health records in five years, saving
billions of dollars in healthcare costs and countless lives. And we'll
protect health insurance for more than eight million Americans who are in
danger of losing their coverage during this economic downturn.

      To ensure our children can compete and succeed in this new economy,
we'll renovate and modernize 10,000 schools, building state-of-the-art
classrooms, libraries and labs to improve learning for over five million
students. We'll invest more in Pell Grants to make college affordable for
seven million more students, provide a $2,500 college tax credit to four
million students, and triple the number of fellowships in science to help
spur the next generation of innovation.

      Finally, we will rebuild and retrofit America to meet the demands of
the twenty-first century. That means repairing and modernizing thousands of
miles of America's roadways and providing new mass transit options for
millions of Americans. It means protecting America by securing ninety major
ports and creating a better communications network for local law
enforcement and public safety officials in the event of an emergency. And
it means expanding broadband access to millions of Americans, so business
can compete on a level playing field, wherever they're located.

      I know that some are skeptical about the size and scale of this
recovery plan. I understand that skepticism, which is why this recovery
plan must and will include unprecedented measures that will allow the
American people to hold my administration accountable for these results. We
won't just throw money at our problems; we'll invest in what works.


AMY GOODMAN: President Obama in his first weekly presidential radio
address.

Meanwhile, the Obama administration could be planning on spending even more
money to bail out the nation's banks. Speaking on CBS's Face the
Nation, Vice President Joe Biden said Treasury Secretary nominee Timothy
Geithner will soon report on whether he thinks banks need more bailout
money. Speculation is growing that the Obama administration may decide to
nationalize two of the nation's largest banks: Citigroup and Bank of
America. Earlier this month, the Bush Treasury Department announced an
additional $118 billion infusion for Bank of America. Citigroup recently
announced it suffered an $8 billion net loss in the fourth quarter.

For more on the economy, I want to turn now to David Korten, co-founder of
Positive Futures Network and publisher of the magazine YES!. He is also a
former professor at Harvard University's Graduate School of Business and
the author of several books, including When Corporations Rule the World and
The Great Turning: From Empire to Earth Community. His newest book is just
out, called Agenda for a New Economy: From Phantom Wealth to Real Wealth.
In it, David Korten argues the nation faces a monumental economic challenge
that goes far beyond anything being discussed in Congress. He writes that
now is an opportune moment to move forward an agenda to replace the failed
money-serving institutions of our present economy with the institutions of
a new economy dedicated to serving life.

Juan Gonzalez and I spoke to David Korten on Friday about the nation's
economic crisis and how it should be addressed.

      DAVID KORTEN: Well, it really starts with being clear that we have a
failed economic system. And we've seen very dramatically the consequences
of the financial failure. But what we're not talking about is the
connection to the environmental failure, the destruction of earth's
living systems, and the social failure of an economic system that by its
very design, particularly as manifest on Wall Street, is designed to
increase inequality. You know, having worked in international development
for many years, I'm very familiar with the argument that the way to deal
with poverty is, through economic growth, to bring up the bottom. But, of
course, what we see-and we've seen this for decades-is that, in fact,
economic growth tends to raise the top and depress the bottom.

      Now, part of it's coming to terms with the fact that we live on a
finite planet. We've got finite resources. And the question is, what are
our economic priorities? How do we allocate those resources? And it
requires a fundamentally different approach to the economy: evaluating
economic performance by the things that we really want, in terms of human
and natural well-being, rather than a system that is purely designed to
increase financial returns to the already very wealthy.

      JUAN GONZALEZ: Your book's subtitle, From a Phantom Wealth to Real
Wealth-what is phantom wealth?

      DAVID KORTEN: Yeah. This is part of understanding the current Wall
Street system, which is built around an illusion, the illusion that money
is wealth, which then translates into the idea that people who are
creating-or who are making money are in fact creating wealth. And what
Wall Street has become extremely expert at is creating money out of nothing
through financial bubbles, through pyramiding lending to create fictitious
assets that become collateral for more bank lending, and then combining
that with the predatory aspects of usurious lending and deceptive lending
and the use of credit cards as a substitute for a living wage-all the
games that Wall Street is playing. And it's actually based on a
philosophy that says we don't need to produce anything as a country, if
we can-you know, if we can do all this financial innovation that allows
us to create financial assets without producing anything of real value. I
mean, it's absolutely insane. And yet, it is the-it's been the
foundation of our economic policy in this country for decades now.

      AMY GOODMAN: You have spent your life focusing on issues of
sustainability. You talk about excess consumption. What is the model that
you could see right now? What is the model that we have right now? And what
is the one you want to see built?

      DAVID KORTEN: Yeah, well, the amazing thing is that our system is
built on driving increased consumption, but particularly it is driving the
most destructive and wasteful forms of consumption, of course, starting
with war, moving on to automobile dependence, and which is not just about
the energy issue, but it's about the fragmentation of society, as we move
out into the suburbs. It's about the breakdown of the family, as we put
more and more stress on the family. So you have to have two or more people
in the household working more than one job each just to keep the household
together, which means the children are without caretakers and so forth.

      You begin to put this all together, you say, well, if we began to
really organize our economic activities around the things that really
matter, we'd be looking at things-well, how do we organize our economy
so that it actually builds human relationships, so it supports families, so
it creates an environment in which our children can grow up both physically
and psychologically healthy? And we begin to say, well, first of all, it
would be a good idea to end war. And, of course, most of our wars are about
competition for resources to maintain our wasteful lifestyle. So let's
really get serious about world peace. Then we've got to start reducing
our dependence on automobiles and recognize that rather than reemploying
autoworkers in making automobiles, we should be employing them in building
bicycles, building public transportation and so forth, all the things we
need. Instead of investing massively in advertising, you know, redirect
those creative communications resources to education. You begin to see, in
almost every aspect of our economy, the opportunity to redirect resources
in ways that actually increase our well-being-they're not about
sacrifice, ultimately-and bringing ourselves into balance with one
another and with earth.


AMY GOODMAN: David Korten, author of Agenda for a New Economy: From Phantom
Wealth to Real Wealth: Why Wall Street Can't Be Fixed and How to Replace
It. We'll come back to the interview in a minute.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: We return to our interview with David Korten, author of Agenda
for a New Economy: From Phantom Wealth to Real Wealth: Why Wall Street
Can't Be Fixed and How to [Replace] It.

      JUAN GONZALEZ: You talk about this as a much more holistic and
fundamental approach to the crisis we're facing right now, but a few days
ago, in his inaugural speech, President Obama, in the only reference he
made really to the market, he said something to the effect that
government-without the watchful eye of government, the market can
sometimes spin out of control, but that basically reaffirming our markets
and our system as the best to offer for the world. Your sense of his
response, given the nature of the crisis you think we face right now?

      DAVID KORTEN: Well, it's always hard to tell exactly what that
translates into, but I think the bottom line of what he's saying is that
for a market to function efficiently in the service of society, it has to
operate within a framework of rules. And it's interesting. You know, by
my understanding of real market economics, that's a fundamental part of
market efficiency. Now, of course, what we've been driven by is an
economic ideology that claims to be a market theory, but in fact is
anti-market, because what happens, if you try to operate a market without
rules, you get this consolidation of power, the disconnect of financial
power from the real economy of real people and real goods and services, and
you develop a totally extractive economy.

      You know, theoretically in economics, economists talk about markets
as a range, from the purely competitive market, which-you know, the kind
of model would be the farmers' market, like down here at Union Square,
where I used to live; at the other end is the purely monopolistic or
monopoly market, which has none of the beneficial features of the perfect
competition. But they say, well, because the perfect competition works
really well, you know, the market economy is the way to go.

      I mean, basically, we need to realize we've been told that there
are only two economic models. One is the capitalist model, and the other is
the communist or socialist model. One, the capitalists own everything, and
the other, the government runs everything. The real alternative is, in
fact, a real market economy that looks a whole lot more like what Adam
Smith had in mind, which is-which looks more like a farmers' market.
And I think-you know, we talk about Wall Street and Main Street, and
really the solution is to rebuild a new economy based on Main Street, which
means local businesses and people who are rooted in their community and
working within a framework of community values and a set of public rules
that enforce basic conditions of market efficiency.

      JUAN GONZALEZ: Isn't part of the problem-is, here you talk about
the-even in the classical style of capitalism, we've seen a huge turn
away. For instance, so much of our financial system now is in derivatives
and credit default swaps and all of these unregulated and almost unknown-

      DAVID KORTEN: Yes.

      JUAN GONZALEZ: -aspects of the financial system, and then the rise
in recent years of all of these private equity firms. At least in the
classic corporation, there are shareholders, and there are boards of
directors, and you have filings with the SEC, and you have some sort of
transparency. But now, with these private equity firms dominating so much
of investment and with all of these off-the-books financial systems, you
really have a system that no one even knows how deep the problem is.

      DAVID KORTEN: That's absolutely right. And, you know, the values
have morphed further and further away from any kind of connection to or
commitment to a larger public interest. And, of course, underlying this is
also this immoral philosophy that says if we each simply pursue our
individual financial benefit, that this maximizes the benefit for the
society. Now that is about as corrupt a theory as one could imagine. We are
seeing the consequences of it.

      And one of the things we have to break out of is to recognize that
that is a-it's pragmatically flawed, it is morally flawed, that there
is a community interest, and it beholds every one of us in every aspect of
our life to recognize not only our personal interest, but also the
collective interest, which means we've got to create a totally different
economy around different institutions and different values.

      AMY GOODMAN: Now, as people listen to you, David Korten, they might
be saying this is really pie in the sky. But it sounds like you're
redefining it as apple pie in the sky, right? As patriotic.

      DAVID KORTEN: It is patriotic. It's democratic.

      AMY GOODMAN: You're saying that Wall Street can't be fixed. How
do we replace it? Lay out how the environment fits into this and exactly
what you mean when you say, you know, families should be able to do things
more together. How do people survive? Why is Main Street more real than
Wall Street?

      DAVID KORTEN: Well, because Wall Street is totally in the business of
creating phantom wealth. You know, it goes back to one of the fundamentals
that I realized when I was working in international development and I began
to wonder, "Why is it that the more developed the country gets, there's
more and more people living in poverty?" And it comes down to a very
simple recognition. All the decisions that we make and official aid
agencies are based on, what will maximize the returns to money, which means
to people who already have money. And people who don't have any money
basically don't fit into the equation. And that's the way our whole
economy, the whole Wall Street picture, is defined.

      So, you know, part of the shift is recognizing, again, that the whole
concept of economic growth is flawed in terms of how we measure it, because
in fact what economic growth really measures is the cost of producing
whatever level of human well-being, health and well-being, we have
achieved. So, in an economy that works, we would start assessing economic
performance against indicators of the health of our children, of our
families, of our communities, the health of our natural systems, and we
would look at GDP as a measure of the cost of that attainment, so we would
be trying to minimize GDP rather than maximize it, as we organize economies
that are really about-they're about building community. They are about
providing people with meaningful jobs that give us a sense of personal
meaning in our lives.

      AMY GOODMAN: Give us an example.

      DAVID KORTEN: Well, I mean, one of the interesting examples is the
data that shows that people who shop in a farmers' market have ten times
the number of conversations of people who shop in a supermarket. And, you
know, I know that from when I lived here in New York on Union Square and I
did most of my grocery shopping at the farmers' market. And, yeah, you
meet people, and you talk, and you meet your neighbors, and you get
acquainted with the farmer that grows your produce and so forth. And this
is all about building relationships. And, you know, we have so monetized
the economy, and a part of that process is monetizing relationships. And it
diminishes our very humanity.

      JUAN GONZALEZ: I'd like to ask you to put this more in the
perspective of our global economy. Clearly, one of the great economic
trends of the past fifty years is that the industrial heartland of America
has moved from the Midwest to China-

      DAVID KORTEN: Yes.

      JUAN GONZALEZ: -to India, to the developing world. And much of the
production of the West is now in countries where the labor standards under
which that production is made is far inferior to where it was made when it
was here, in western Europe or in the United States.

      DAVID KORTEN: Yes.

      JUAN GONZALEZ: That's, it seems to me, at this point, an almost
irreversible trend. How will that affect the future of American society in
twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years?

      DAVID KORTEN: Well, in some ways, it is a very reversible trend,
because we have been supporting that purely by living off of consumer
credit extended by the rest of the world, and the rest of the world is
beginning to finally wake up to the fact that the US dollar is not worth as
much as we all thought it was, because our own economy is increasingly
built on-you know, and this has been an explicit policy-the growth of
the financial sector is a percentage of our total economy, so we built an
economy that assumes that we can live by simply creating money out of
nothing, advertising to sell goods and services produced in China, security
services to maintain order in the face of breakdown, health services to
make up for the fact that we're eating crummy non-nutritious food and
ingesting all sorts of toxins from the environment, and toxic waste
cleanup. Now, this is not the foundation for much of an economy. The rest
of the world is at some point going to stop sending us their goods and
their food, because they're going to realize that they're much better
off to eat that food themselves and to produce shoes for their own children
rather than shipping to us. So either we get cracking on rebuilding our
economy and our capacity to produce, or we're going to end up in a pretty
desperate strait in the not-too-distant future.

      And, of course, while we're doing this, we need to rebuild all that
around a model that is environmentally sustainable, which means our total
consumption of material goods has to drop significantly. But if you put it
in the context of, well, if we get rid of our military-industrial complex;
if we begin to roll back our suburbs, to begin to reform ourselves into
more compact communities so that we eliminate our automobile dependence; if
we start putting more of our energy into education and into primary
healthcare and all the things that are essential to a good society; we
begin to rebuild the relationships of community, people begin to find
satisfaction in their jobs because they're really producing goods and
services that help their neighbors, and they feel like they're
contributing to their community.

      Now, you know, the amount of adjustment that we have to make in order
for all this to happen is huge, and that cannot be downplayed. You know,
we've done work in fifty years to create this monstrosity of an economy
that runs on a fossil fuel subsidy that's being withdrawn and that is
based on this premise that if we just make more money out of nothing, we
are more prosperous. So this is kind of a wake-up call. We've been living
in a trance.

      AMY GOODMAN: David Korten, Inauguration Day, Wall Street experienced
one of its greatest dives down. Very interesting. As one said, Wall Street
jeered, while Washington cheered.

      DAVID KORTEN: As the world cheered.

      AMY GOODMAN: As the world cheered. You had, by the closing bell, the
Dow Jones Industrial Average down 322 points, below 8,000. S&P 500 Index
dropped forty-five points, more than five percent. It rarely goes below one
percent. How is the Dow Jones related to real life? When it goes up, is
that good for America? Is that good for the world? When it goes down, is
that bad?

      DAVID KORTEN: Well, the interesting thing is, when it goes up, what
it really means is that rich people are getting richer than the rest of us,
or they're getting richer faster. And it's actually bad. Now, you know,
if you really accepted it in the context of the way we're supposed to
think about it, that is generating more and more resources for productive
activity. But in fact, most of the Wall Street funding is focused on
funding speculation. And, of course, most of the trading, at least 90
percent of the trading, probably more like 95 percent of the trading, that
goes on on Wall Street has nothing to do with funding real businesses;
it's just exchanging pieces of paper. So, you know, when the market goes
up quickly, that's a financial bubble. It has absolutely nothing to do
with anything related to real wealth. I mean, this is part of the insanity
of it, that we have come to believe that a financial bubble is actually
creating wealth, where it does absolutely nothing except create additional
financial credits. And yet, the business commentators are always talking
about, we created so much-so much wealth was created in the market today,
or so much wealth was destroyed. That's the phantom wealth.

      JUAN GONZALEZ: And what part of some of your prescriptions for a way
out of this economic quagmire do you believe that the team that Barack
Obama is assembled-Larry Summers and Timothy Geithner and these
others-will be able or even willing to try to address?

      DAVID KORTEN: Well, certainly, Summers is one of the ultimate
neoliberal, free market ideologues.

      AMY GOODMAN: What does that mean?

      DAVID KORTEN: It means he has been a promoter of the idea of
unregulated markets. He was-by my understanding, he was actively involved
in the dismantling of Glass-Steagall, so that you could consolidate the
depository banks with the investment banks with the brokerages and so
forth, which then get us into banks creating money by lending it
essentially to themselves. That's where the system really starts spinning
out of control.

      You know, Timothy Geithner was head of the New York Federal Reserve,
which really is considered to be the lead Federal Reserve organization all
during the time that they were going through the processes of deregulating
the financial markets and even the Federal Reserve, pouring trillions of
dollars that go way beyond the bailout of the Treasury Department.

      So it's hard for me to see that these folks have a framework
consistent with where we need to move and that they have a recognition that
Wall Street, as we know it, basically needs to be allowed to fail. And, in
fact, we should be putting in regulations not only to make it-not to make
it work, but to stop the speculation. And if you stop the speculation, if
you stop the usury, the excessive interest charges and so forth, Wall
Street will in fact collapse. Now, I was fascinated. I hadn't heard this
yet, but you mentioned that the government is starting to actually talk
about takeover of some of the big banks. Now that, if they do it right, is
potentially a right step.

      AMY GOODMAN: Krugman has said nationalize the banks.

      DAVID KORTEN: Yeah. Now, my sense of what we really need to do is
nationalize the depository banks, let the hedge funds and private equity
funds fail, but not with the idea that the government will permanently run
the banking system as nationalized banks, but that they go through a
transition of spinning those banks off into community banks, in a sense
restoring the unitary banking system that we had some decades ago, where
the banks were organized and functioned as local financial institutions,
where people could deposit their savings, and the banks could make loans to
people that were buying a house or running a business, which is the way the
system should be structured.

      Now, the other piece that we need to deal with is the whole question
of how we create money, which is not very much publicly discussed. But
moving from the current system, where we essentially rely on banks to
create money by lending it into existence, which creates all kinds of
financial instability, and it also means that, in a sense, every economic
transaction, we're paying rent to the bank for the money, when it's
quite possible for government to spend the money into existence, as it is
needed, to build a much more stable money supply. And that means that-you
know, that lowers taxes.

      You know, in terms of the Obama stimulus package, people talk,
"Where does that money come from?" And it's very likely, if we do it
in the traditional way, we'll either borrow it from the banks, which
means the banks will create it out of nothing and we will be paying
interest on it, or if we borrow it abroad, it may be banks in China or
Japan creating the money, which then we pay interest on. And it makes a
whole lot more sense to develop a whole new orderly system by which the
money is essentially issued by the federal government, and then we don't
owe anybody anything.

      AMY GOODMAN: What if the banks are nationalized? The taxpayers have
to take on the bad debt, the bad assets, and then they reprivatize them
when they get healthy.

      DAVID KORTEN: Well, that's an interesting question. I think
there's good reason to say, "Don't take on the bad debts." You
know? Let them go into bankruptcy, and then take over the assets to
restructure. Now, this gets us into a huge additional problem, in that in
the creation of phantom wealth-and, of course, many of these derivatives
and so forth were ultimately sold off to pension funds or to university
endowments or, you know, local municipality trust funds or whatever. You
begin to look at that, and what you realize is that the total financial
claims that were built up through that process far exceed any real wealth
of the planet, which means that they are fictitious. You know, they can
never be realized. We've been treating money as a storehouse of value.
What it really is, it can be a storehouse of expectations.

      But those of us who have-we may have comfortable retirement
accounts. It's not clear how we're going to be able to redeem that,
because there's not enough wealth in the society, real wealth of real
people doing real things, to maintain us at the level of our expectations.
So all of this needs to be reworked out in this process of restructuring
the financial system, and it's not going to be easy or comfortable.

      JUAN GONZALEZ: Because when you talk about letting some of these big
institutions go bankrupt, as you say, you're talking about pension funds
of labor unions, government investments as well, universities.

      DAVID KORTEN: Yes.

      JUAN GONZALEZ: Everybody got involved in getting into the markets,
and now everyone, to one degree or another, will pay from the unraveling of
these markets.

      DAVID KORTEN: Yeah. And part of the really insidious nature of it is
the way the money managers are running the system. They're creating all
of these fictitious transactions as a justification for collecting fees
from the system, such as you know, that some of the highest compensated
hedge fund managers were taking home more than a billion dollars a year in
compensation. Now, that's where we need to do some serious taxation to
recover that money. I mean, that's pure theft. What they were really
doing was raiding the equity of these funds, which was supposed to be the
cushion against risk. And so, again, I mean, this is a form of fraud that
cannot be allowed to endure.

      AMY GOODMAN: David Korten, what does the end of empire mean?

      DAVID KORTEN: The end of empire, this puts it all in a historical
context, and it very much relates to democracy. 5,000 years ago, as a
species, we moved away from more community-oriented forms of organization,
and we began to organize ourselves by dominator hierarchy. I refer to that
period of move-the move to empire. And it was not just about one nation
dominating another, but it was about a dominator hierarchy at all levels of
society, from the relationships among nations to relationships within
families, relationships between gender, between races and so forth.

      Now, we have gone through some democratizing processes, but the fact
is, we are still in that era of empire, of organization of society by
dominator hierarchy. And whereas the rulers used to be kings and emperors,
they are now corporate CEOs and hedge fund managers. And the system has
morphed into where the real rule in society-put aside all our elections,
democracy and so forth, the real rule has been by Wall Street institutions
through the system of money, as money is a system of power.

AMY GOODMAN: David Korten, author of Agenda for a New Economy: From Phantom
Wealth to Real Wealth: Why Wall Street Can't Be Fixed and How to
[Replace] It.




From rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com  Tue Jan 27 01:51:49 2009
From: rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com (Rodney Shakespeare)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 08:51:49 -0000
Subject: [GJM] From Mother Jones - The People vs Dick Cheney
References: <000001c98013$db28fc00$917af400$@net>
	<700B89C4-7DF7-46AC-8500-5417CCAB4123@mac.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c9805c$803f52f0$0301a8c0@your447023ae6b>

Mary (Rose),
1.    You say all your messages are labeled as SPAM.

Some obvious personal  messages to me come into my Spam Box (I have a notice stuck on my computer screen to remind me to check the  Spam Box); some obvious spam comes into my normal  In Box; and some obvious personal emails to me get labeled as SPAM.

Moreover, your 'Mother Jones' email to FixGov and GJM does not appear to have been labeled as SPAM.

I think all this is probably due to the filtering programs..

2.     As Steven Nieman says, there are a lot of positive things going on, too.

3.    As regards the present system being to blame, it is necessary to say why the financial/economic system is to blame  and then provide a practical and desirable way to change it.

I mention this because  in the last four weeks I have done or participated in  nine TV or radio broadcasts of one sort or another and five were twenty five minutes or more (of which one was a televised broadcast of a one hour lecture) and am putting across the following message:-

a) The banking system is to blame for the global economic crisis which will soon become a slump.  Present 'remedies' are creating more of the thing which caused the problem in the first place.

The banking system is responsible because it creates money out of nothing; adds interest, as well as administrative cost, and does not direct the money to the development and spreading of productive (and the associated consuming) capacity ) so as to achieve a balance of supply and demand with producers and consumers being the same people.  The result is huge, unrepayable debt and an economic system which is profoundly out of kilter with little relation to the needs of a real economy as well as social and economic justice

b) The solution is to stop the banking system creating money -- let it lend its own capital and, with permission, the deposits of customers.  This is done by a gradual rise to 100% bank reserves.

At the same time, open up a new, interest-free loan supply from the central bank (administered by the banking system which may charge administration cost) for the purpose of developing and spreading productive capacity and forwarding social and economic justice.  See the diagram at www.binaryeconomics.net


Rodney Shakespeare.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steve Nieman 
  To: Discussion Forum for Global Justice 
  Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:06 AM
  Subject: Re: [GJM] From Mother Jones - The People vs Dick Cheney


  The system is mostly to blame, Mary.  And many people's tortured, divided, and undisciplined minds...


  I am not at all threatened with what your write and forward as unofficial Internet editor.  Keep up your passion.  You're making a difference, including with me.


  My main emphasis I ask you to consider, and which I daily strive for: balance.  There's a lot of evil in the human world.  But there are a lot of positive things going on, too.  And the sound of silence is a necessary requisite to allow the mind to see clearly and not be confused by many people's unintelligible chattering.


  Regards,
  Steve Nieman
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  On Jan 26, 2009, at 4:11 PM, mary rose wrote:


    In closing, another thought that occurs though is whether or not the present system Is at

    least partly, or perhaps mostly to blame, for what can you expect when political parties vie

    against one another for control in order to serve their own interests in an international arena.  

    Perhaps we should be considering growing up and moving into another level of consciousness

    while searching for a system that is more equitable and serves the best interests of ALL concerned.         



    http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2009/01/the-people-vs-dick-cheney.html



    I find it most interesting that all of my messages are labeled as SPAM.  There must be a contingency

    out there that feels threatened by what I write.



    mary rose   





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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan 27 03:22:11 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 10:22:11 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] From Mother Jones - The People vs Dick Cheney
In-Reply-To: <002e01c9805c$803f52f0$0301a8c0@your447023ae6b>
Message-ID: <293837.937.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?Dear All,
?
??????????? I have noticed that not all the post necessarily go onto the discussion group. Normally ofcourse they do, or alternatively take time to get published. As Rodney has indicated this is probably something to do with the filtering system but I am not an? expert on such matter. On occassion one gets a message from the GJM with SPAM on it.
?
Anyway, it is not big deal to use the American expression.
?
Regards,
?
Robert Searle

--- On Tue, 27/1/09, Rodney Shakespeare <rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com> wrote:

From: Rodney Shakespeare <rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: [GJM] From Mother Jones - The People vs Dick Cheney
To: "Discussion Forum for Global Justice" <discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>
Date: Tuesday, 27 January, 2009, 8:51 AM





Mary (Rose),
1.??? You say all your messages are labeled as SPAM.
?
Some obvious personal ?messages to me come into my Spam Box (I have a notice stuck on my?computer screen to remind me to check the? Spam Box); some obvious spam comes into my normal? In Box; and some obvious personal emails to me get labeled as SPAM.
?
Moreover, your 'Mother Jones' email to FixGov and GJM does not appear to have been labeled as SPAM.
?
I think all this is probably due to the filtering programs..
?
2.?????As Steven Nieman says, there are a lot of positive things going on, too.
?
3.??? As regards the present system being to blame, it is necessary to say why the financial/economic system is to blame? and then provide a practical and desirable way to change it.
?
I mention this because? in the last four weeks I have done or participated in ?nine TV or radio broadcasts of one sort or another and five were twenty five minutes or more (of which one was a televised broadcast of a one hour lecture) and am putting across the following message:-
?
a) The banking system is to blame for the global economic crisis?which will soon become a slump.? Present 'remedies'?are creating more of the thing which caused the problem in the first place.
?
The banking system is responsible because it creates money out of nothing; adds interest, as well as administrative cost, and does not direct the money to the development and spreading of productive (and the associated consuming) capacity ) so as to achieve a balance of supply and demand with producers and consumers being the same people.? The result is huge, unrepayable debt and an economic system which is profoundly out of kilter with little relation to the needs of a real economy as well as social and economic justice
?
b) The solution is to stop the banking system creating money -- let it lend its own capital and, with permission, the deposits of customers.? This is done by a gradual rise to 100% bank reserves.
?
At the same time, open up a new, interest-free loan supply from the central bank (administered by the banking system which may charge administration cost) for the purpose of developing and spreading productive capacity and forwarding social and economic justice.? See the diagram at www.binaryeconomics.net
?
?
Rodney Shakespeare.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Steve Nieman 
To: Discussion Forum for Global Justice 
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:06 AM
Subject: Re: [GJM] From Mother Jones - The People vs Dick Cheney

The system is mostly to blame, Mary. ?And many people's tortured, divided, and undisciplined minds... 


I am not at all threatened with what your write and forward as unofficial Internet editor. ?Keep up your passion. ?You're making a difference, including with me.


My main emphasis I ask you to consider, and which I daily strive for: balance. ?There's a lot of evil in the human world. ?But there are a lot of positive things going on, too. ?And the sound of silence is a necessary requisite to allow the mind to see clearly and not be confused by many people's?unintelligible?chattering.


Regards,
Steve Nieman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


On Jan 26, 2009, at 4:11 PM, mary rose wrote:


In closing, another thought that occurs though is whether or not the present system Is at
least partly, or perhaps mostly to blame, for what can you expect when political parties vie
against one another for control in order to serve their own interests in an international arena. ?
Perhaps we should be considering growing up and moving into another level of consciousness
while searching for a system that is more equitable and serves the best interests of ALL concerned.? ???????

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2009/01/the-people-vs-dick-cheney.html

I find it most interesting that all of my messages are labeled as SPAM.? There must be a contingency
out there that feels threatened by what I write.

mary rose ??




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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan 27 05:30:32 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 12:30:32 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Practical implementation of Consumer
	Prices Compensation
In-Reply-To: <AB5B852F-0C23-4687-87C4-7E09E6570C63@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <478089.98535.qm@web27404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Tue, 27/1/09, Wallace Klinck <wmklinck at shaw.ca> wrote:

From: Wallace Klinck <wmklinck at shaw.ca>
Subject: [socialcredit] Practical implementation of Consumer Prices Compensation
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Tuesday, 27 January, 2009, 1:59 AM



The following is submitted with regard to recent debate within this group regarding Douglas's "Compensated Price." ?Victor Bridger has had wide business experience and was much involved in the program for subsidization of prices which was implemented during World War Two to keep down food prices in Australia at that time. ?He advises that the program worked very effectively and that he encountered no difficulties with its administration at that time.
Sincerely
Wally




Organ of the 
INSTITUTEOF ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY 
?
P.O. Box 33, Paddington, Queensland, 4064 
No. I MARCH. 1970 
?
THE FORGOTTEN STORY OF CONSUMER SUBSIDIES 
?
The Hon. D. Anthony, Minister for Primary Industries, has stated that he finds the book, They Want Your Land, appeal to emotion rather than reason" and that the policy of consumer subsidies has long ago been rejected by the Government as being economically and politically impractical in the context of our National Policy aims, as well as being a very costly and inefficient means of attempting to help rural producers." 
?
?
Mr. Anthony's statement that consumer subsidies are "politically impractical" is astonishing in view of the fact that in 1949 the Liberal-Country Party coalition Government came to office on a policy of "putting the shillings back into the pound" by restoring the price subsidy system dismantled by the Labor Government. The concept of a comprehensive price-subsidisation (or cost compensation) program is neither new nor revolutionary. A new type of financial policy was made necessary by the Second World War, when the myths of the ?thirties about "a shortage of finance" were shattered. The well-known Government adviser during the war years, Professor L. G. Giblin, states in his authoritative work, The Growth of a Central Bank, that "The (Commonwealth Bank) in 1942 recognised that a great expansion of central bank credit was necessary to finance the war ...." This expansion of central bank credit enabled the Trading Banks to create and expand more credit
 also. Men, material and ?know-how? were the only limiting factors on the war effort, not "a shortage of finance".
?
In the nature of the present finance-economic system, a great expansion of new financial credits, much of it being devoted to capital production (war industries) has the effect of increasing the price level. An increased price level erodes the value of wages and salaries, this resulting in an increase in wages and salaries to offset this erosion. But increased wages and salaries, financed out of further expansions of credit by the banking system, must be costed into prices by employers, thus stimulating further what is often called the "price spiral". The threat of inflation to industrial stability during the Second World War was met by the introduction of selective price-subsidies on items used to compute the Basic Wage. Prices were reduced to the consumer without penalizing the producer. 
?
It is true that the subsidisation was directly financed out of taxation. But the Government was only able to levy such heavy taxation because the great expansion of new financial credits had dramatically increased the supply of money in the pockets of the Australian people. 
?
The essential truth is that the price subsidisation program was financed out of [a] portion of the new credits created to finance the war. Government price control and rationing were only necessary to prevent exploiters taking advantage of the shortage of goods brought about by war production. These controls would have been completely unnecessary with adequate consumer production, such 
as is the case at present. Price subsidization demonstrated that even with an enormous expansion of new credit for an expanding economy, price stability is possible. The big increases in price rises started with the dismantling of the price subsidization program after 1948. They have continued ever since. 
?
Opposition leaders, including the then Mr. R. G. Menzies and the then Mr. Arthur Fadden, stressed that price increases were the result of dismantling the price subsidy program. By early 1949, these Opposition leaders were bluntly stating that if elected to office, they would immediately restore the price subsidy program, The Argus, Melbourne, on January 28, 1949, reported: 
?
?
?Restoration of subsidies would be advocated by the Federal Country Party as part of its platform for the Federal Elections, Mr. Fadden, leader of the party, said yesterday. ?Our policy of stabilized prices is designed to increase the real purchasing power of wages, health and nutritional standards by increasing consumption,? he said. ?The Country Party's proposal is to restore subsidies to 
commodities which are rising in price and are contributing to the already exorbitant living costs.?? 
?
The Liberal Party had agreed completely with the Country Party on price subsidisation. In a supplementary Policy statement, Mr. Menzies said before the 1949 elections: ?When, at the referendum of 1948,the people refused to give permanent price-fixing powers to the Commonwealth, the present government did two unpardonable things. First it threw price control to the States, hoping they would make a mess of it. Second, it withdrew most subsidies which had been created to keep down the cost of living. While encouraging production to the full, we shall hold ourselves ready to pay price subsidies in appropriate cases, as for example on those items affecting the basic wage earner?s cost of living.? (The Age, Melbourne, November 12, 1949. 
?
Liberal and Country Party speakers attacked Socialist planners like Dr. Coombs, and campaigned strongly on their policy of "putting the shillings back into the pound" through restored price subsidies, reduced taxation and less bureaucracy. The electors voted for the policy. 
?
The Sun, Melbourne, January 26, 1950, reported: "As a first step to bringing value back into the pound, the Federal Government is likely soon to subsidise some commodities in the cost-of-living index. Cabinet plans to begin its anti-inflation drive, in fulfillment of election pledges, on February 7. Appointment of a Ministerial economic policy committee was announced today by the Prime Minister (Mr. Menzies). The committee, he said, would start work next week with a team of experts so that the Government could formulate a policy on prices subsidies at once." But the "experts", the very planners previously criticised, clearly "bluffed" the new government. On February 10 the Government announced the appointment of Dr. H. C. Coombs as Chairman of the newly-created Commonwealth Bank Board. It was obvious that the Menzies-Fadden banking policies were a continuation of the Chifley Government's. There was an upsurge of criticism in many Liberal Party branches,
 but it proved ineffective. 
?
By April 5, 1950, Prime Minister Menzies had formally capitulated to the "advisers" and planners. The Sun, Melbourne, of that date, reported as follows: "Mr. Menzies said (to the Launceston Chamber of Commerce) that putting value back into the pound was not the Government's responsibility. It was the peoples'." From then on there was no more talk of price subsidies. There 
was a steady retreat from the brave words and promises of the pre-1949 Federal Elections.? 
?
This forgotten story of consumer subsidies proves that the election of politicians pledged to a clear-cut policy, does not necessarily mean that that policy will be implemented if it meets with the disapproval of the entrenched 
bureaucracy. Early in 1950 it was demonstrated that the Liberal-Country Party coalition was unable to implement a policy strongly supported by the electors. In face of the facts, it is obvious that merely electing different politicians will, of itself have no real bearing on the question of how power is to be decentralised into the hands of the people. The battle to wrest power from those now exercising it, must be fought through the people's political and other institutions. This means the applications of effective pressure on the 
electors' paid servants at Canberra, making it clear that they must either take up again the battle promised in 1949, or be removed in favor of men with the courage to do this. Mr. Anthony's claim that consumer subsidies are "impractical" is a repudiation of what was once a major Country Party policy. 
?
?
LIBERAL MP ATTACKS POLICY OF RURAL SUBSIDIES" 
?
The above was the heading in The Australian (February 19) report of an address by South Australian Federal Liberal MP Mr. Kelly to the annual conference of the 
Australian Economic Society in Melbourne. Mr. Kelly put the view so prevalent at present, that a Federal Government "should be influenced more by its national 
Economic responsibilities and less by short-term political considerations." He said that the Federal Government "should lead, not follow." Mr. Kelly's philosophy is akin to that of National Socialism. In a genuine democracy,
policy making is freely decided by the individual, both in the political and the economic field. The responsibility of Mr. Kelly and his fellow over-paid Members, is to represent the policies of the electors.
?
Mr. Kelly quite naturally emerges as an exponent of the get-bigger-or-get-out philosophy: ". . . those of us in the wool industry know that one of the few means available to us to reduce costs is to produce more wool?in other words, to become larger woolgrowers." Mr. Kelly must be aware that large numbers of Australian woolgrowers have become much more efficient, and are producing more wool. But while their greater effciency, and their intensified production, has substantially increased the total amount of wool for sale, financial costs, all 
stemming from the inflationary financial policies which the Federal Government endorses, continue to outstrip the results of greater efficiency. The sane purpose of production is consumption, to serve the real needs of the 
consumer, not to go on increasing production simply in an endeavour to keep up with rising financial costs. The bigger primary producer who thinks he can survive by the elimination of the smaller producers, is merely helping 
to prepare for his own eventual elimination as an independent man. If Mr. Kelly has been reported correctly, he is opposed to the principle of rural subsidies because these will prevent the policy of bigger production units which he supports. By inference he admits that subsidisation could halt centralisation. 
?
Mr. Kelly states that "To insulate an industry from the costs around it is the kiss of death to that industry."? The costs to which Mr. Kelly refers are financial costs stemming from the present inflationary financial policies???????????????????? of the Federal Government. They manifest themselves in numerous ways, in the increased financial prices the producer has to pay for what he buys, the higher wages he must pay, the increased rates which Municipal Governments are forced to impose because they are under the inflationary pressures. As the primary producer is not responsible for these rising financial costs, and has in most 
cases reduced his real costs of production through greater efficiency, it is elementary that any policy which "insulates" him against inflation must be of benefit to him as producer and a member of the community. If the policy of "insulation" includes consumer subsidies, paid only on what consumers buy, then both producer and consumer benefit.
?
Mr. Kelly expresses concern that if some type of cost compensation scheme is applied to the wool industry "we will be up for big money." He points out that only 5 cents a pound subsidy would be $100 million. Mr. Kelly must surely be out of touch with reality. If even this amount were financed out of new financial credits, or in the form of some type of Government debentures which could be used to meet certain specific liabilities such as rates and taxes, it is obvious that Australian woolgrowers would have an extra $100 million to spend on the type of production they desire. This would be a genuine increase in purchasing power. All would benefit. Unless this, or some similar policy is applied, then what Mr. Kelly terms "big money" will be but "chicken-feed" compared to what will be required to finance more inflation and centralisation. 
?
Mr. Kelly makes the point that "two elections every three years and the pressure for popularity tends to prevent the Government giving an industry the medicine which is necessary for its well-being." The correct function of government in a democratic society is to provide a Rule of Law, particularly in the field of finance, which enables individuals to get the benefits from their various forms of association. Talk about Governments administering medicine rather smacks of the caster-oil treatment used by the Fascist regime under Mussolini. It might be suggested that Mr. Kelly and some of his colleagues might be given a little appropriate medicine to encourage them to halt their present Socialist inflation and taxation policies. Perhaps it would help if every time the price level went up three per cent., the salaries of Mr. Kelly and his Government colleagues could come down three per cent. 
?
?
COUNTERFEIT MONEY
?
?
On December 7, 1968, in the township of Credit River, in the County of Scott, Minnesota, U.S.A. history was made. 
?
Jerome Daly, a lawyer, was brought to Court because a mortgage held by the First National Bank of Montgomery, on a house bought by him was in default, so 
the Bank foreclosed. Mr. Daly (the Defendant), in answer to the charge, said that the Bank (the Plaintiff) created money and credit upon its own books by bookkeeping entry as the consideration for the Note and Mortgage of May 8, 1964, and he therefore alleged that the Sheriff's sale of the house passed no title to the Plaintiff. The Plaintiff, Lawrence V. Morgan, President of the Bank, admitted that all the money or credit which was used as a consideration was created upon their books, that this was standard banking practice exercised by their Bank in combination with the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis, another private Bank; further that he knew of no United States Statute or Law that gave the Bank the authority to do this. 
?
At 12:15 on December 8, 1968, the jury returned a unanimous verdict for the Defendant, Daly. 
?
The Justice of the Peace, Martin Mahoney, who tried the case, added a memorandum to the findings of the Court, in which he said: "The issues in this case were 
simple. There was no material dispute on the facts for the Jury to resolve. Plaintiff admitted that it, in combination with the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis . . . did create the entire $14,000 in money or credit upon its own books, by book-keeping entry. Mr. Morgan admitted that no United States Law or Statute Existed which gave him the right to do this. A lawful consideration must exist and be tendered to support the Note. The Jury found there was no lawful consideration and I agree . . ." 
?
?
DISTRIBUTETHESE 
PAMPHLETS NOW!
?
The Institute of Economic Democracy has published two important pamphlets for wide distribution by farmers to their fellow farmers, those holding executive positions in farmers organizations and members of parliament. The more the M.P.'s find their mail boxes filled with the pamphlets and endorsing their sentiments the more likely are they to take action. The pamphlets emphasise the 
need for politicians to challenge the grip now held by financial advisers in the Treasury and Universities on Government policies. Only an irate and aroused electorate will get the necessary results. 
?
?
The first pamphlet is entitled Answers Farmers Must Ask, and is subtitled, and have answered if they are to survive as Independent Owners, financially secure. In question and answer form it outlines the broad history of factors of the government's inflationary policy which has slowly destroyed the gains made by the farmer. Facts and figures of production, inflation and indebtedness are 
included, with strong reasons why the politicians must reverse present policies. 
?
The second pamphlet is entitled Federal Government's Financial Policies RAISE COSTS?INCREASE PRICES?RUIN FARMERS! TIME FOR ACTION NOW! The demands made in the pamphlet are for Lower Costs?Lower Debt and for Purchasing Power Not Subject to Inflation. It sets out two alternative policies, immediate Short Term Relief and A Long Term Policy which Will Never Let the Situation Occur Again. The pamphlet takes up various suggestions for price subsidies made by different spokesmen for farmers over recent weeks. Two simple illustrations of the application of consumer subsidies are set out, and an answer to the inevitable question "where is the money to come from?" is given. 
?
?
?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan 27 05:49:00 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 12:49:00 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Fwd: Fw: Re: "fiscal accrual"................What is
	this? GJM Post?
In-Reply-To: <faefea4d0901260645o2d61c42fp3da8b5ebe01430e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <858610.16530.qm@web27406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Dear All,
?
????????? This post came from Rodney. It had the sign GJM on it, and?I assume it is meant to be in the public domain...so I have sent it "again" as I cannot see it on the Discussion Group, and is assumed to be a "missing post". Ofcourse, I may be wrong,and I am also mystified that the post came from Ellen Brown en direct, as I presumed rightly, or wrongly that she is not a member of this discussion group??
?
?
?
Regards,
?
Robert Searle

--- On Mon, 26/1/09, Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com>
Subject: Fwd: [GJM] Fw: Re: "fiscal accrual"................What is this?
To: "robert searle" <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Monday, 26 January, 2009, 2:45 PM





---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Rodney Shakespeare <rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com>
Date: Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: [GJM] Fw: Re: "fiscal accrual"................What is this?
To: Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com>




Ellen,
The difference between cash (when money is actually received) ?and accrual (when the money ought to have been received but is not) accounting is one matter -- the accrual method enables corporations to claim they have the income even though it has not actually yet been received.
?
But the more important matter for monetary reformers is capital accrual accounting and its connection with public capital expenditure.? Essentially it is depreciating the value of a capital asset over time.
Previously governments wrote off ALL the value of an asset in the first year and then kept the assets in the books at a low price.
?
The real expert on this and the implications ?is William Krehm of Comer.
?
Looking forward to seeing you in February.
?
Rodney



?
?

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Ellen Brown 
To: Rodney Shakespeare 
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: [GJM] Fw: Re: "fiscal accrual"................What is this?

What is capital accrual accounting?? I am mentioning it in an article.? Thanks and hope to see you soon!? Ellen


On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 2:53 AM, Rodney Shakespeare <rodney.shakespeare1 at btopenworld.com> wrote:



Robert & Ellen,
This is probably a reference to capital accrual accounting 
?
?
Rodney Shakespeare.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: robert searle 
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net 
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: [GJM] Fw: Re: "fiscal accrual"................What is this?







--- On Mon, 19/1/09, Richard Mermin <rmermin at nvbell.net> wrote:

From: Richard Mermin <rmermin at nvbell.net>
Subject: Fw: Re: "fiscal accrual"
To: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Monday, 19 January, 2009, 10:36 PM






following is the? record of an exchange that seems to have stalled for the moment.? From your postings I get the hope you may be able to carry it further.? Fiscal accrual may be just what we need to rescue the world economy with attempting radical political? overhaul all at once.? Can you help us find more about it?

RICHARD MERMIN
1111 Cordero Dr
Carson City NV 89703
775 883 8496 ph&fax

--- On Thu, 1/15/09, Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: "fiscal accrual"
To: rmermin at nvbell.net
Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 12:01 AM


If so, they're not talking about it.? Thanks, Ellen


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:54 PM, Richard Mermin <rmermin at nvbell.net> wrote:






I've forwarded our exchange to a top NZ? accountant, dunno if he? will reply.? Likely you have acquaintance (readers?) who might know more about "fiscal accrual?"? It may be a system already in place that can save the world economy? 


RICHARD MERMIN
1111 Cordero Dr
Carson City NV 89703
775 883 8496 ph&fax

--- On Wed, 1/14/09, Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: "fiscal accrual"
To: "Richard Mermin" <rmermin at nvbell.net>, rmermin at gmail.com
Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 9:10 PM 





Hm, I couldn't find anything specific on it either.? 


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 8:58 PM, Ellen Brown <ellenhbrown at gmail.com> wrote:

Excellent tip.? I'll research it.? Thanks! 





On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:43 PM, Richard Mermin <rmermin at nvbell.net> wrote:





is the name of an accounting protocol adopted by New Zealand and Australia.? In practice it means that money issued by government for infrastucture is balanced by showing the completed work as an asset.? If I understand? correctly, there should be no need for bonds, interest, borrowing,? taxes, for repayment.? Very much like your proposals I believe, with added kicker that it seems to be employed actually by responsible authorities.

I have not been able to find anything written on? the use of this device or possible deployment by US or state governments.? What do you make of it?? would appreciate your comments!

I've? been distributing your articles to practically every acquaintance whom I thought might be interested or at least intrigued.? Scarcely a nibble!? and some of these people have lost millions, and argue politics incessantly.

If you will reply, please copy to rmermin at gmail.com.? ATT has been blocking many emails to me,? "to protect from spam or phishing!" - they admit that, but won't correct it.

RICHARD MERMIN
1111 Cordero Dr
Carson City NV 89703
775 883 8496 ph&fax







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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan 27 05:56:36 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 12:56:36 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Release of Brief Hazel Henderson Post.
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20090124185311.01ed27d8@ihug.com.au>
Message-ID: <307939.23674.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Sat, 24/1/09, M Alan Kazlev <alankazlev at ihug.com.au> wrote:

From: M Alan Kazlev <alankazlev at ihug.com.au>
Subject: FW: Transfinancial Economics
To: "robert searle" <dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Saturday, 24 January, 2009, 7:54 AM


hi Robert

just forwarding this on...

all the best
alan



Thread-Topic: Transfinancial Economics
Thread-Index: Acl8n7n8oOg2CZ+wSg68uYcHGw2KkgAABYCg
From: "Hazel Henderson" <hhlibry at hazelhenderson.com>
To: <alankazlev at ihug.com.au>

?
?
?
Hi Robert Searle;
?
???? I am also a Brit , grew up in Bristol and Clevedon . Now as US citizen grateful for our new president 
?
?One of my friends, John Theaker , of Green Your Office.co.uk? in London sent me your paper on Transfinancial Economics .? It is in alignment with much of my own writing ( see the homepage at www.EthicalMarkets.com ?? and www.HazelHenderson.com? , click on Editorials and? The Politics of Money.
?
??? The current financial mess is a new ? teachable monoent ? on the true nature of money !
?
?
????? Warm wishes,
?
???? Hazel Henderson
?
??? 
HAZEL HENDERSON, D.Sc.Hon., FRSA, author, futurist, president - Ethical Markets Media, LLC
?
Ethical Markets: Growing the Green Economy has won a 2007 Nautilus Award for Conscious Business/Leadership and a 2008 Axiom Award for best business book.
?
Visit www.EthicalMarkets.com, www.EthicalMarkets.tv, www.hazelhenderson.com and www.calvert-henderson.com for the latest information on socially responsible investing, green technologies and global corporate citizenship.
?
Ethical Markets Media, LLC; PO Box 5190, St. Augustine, FL 32085; Phone: 904/829-3140, Fax: 904/826-0325
?


      
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From stevenieman at mac.com  Tue Jan 27 07:39:21 2009
From: stevenieman at mac.com (Steve Nieman)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 06:39:21 -0800
Subject: [GJM] J. Krishnamurti and banking/monetary reform
In-Reply-To: <002e01c9805c$803f52f0$0301a8c0@your447023ae6b>
References: <000001c98013$db28fc00$917af400$@net>
	<700B89C4-7DF7-46AC-8500-5417CCAB4123@mac.com>
	<002e01c9805c$803f52f0$0301a8c0@your447023ae6b>
Message-ID: <DB19DB60-C279-44B5-915C-EBFB8BB2DA43@mac.com>

I agree with Rodney Shakespeare that worldwide present economic  
*remedies* are creating more of the tortures which caused the  
economic collapse in the first place.

What good is any infra-structure, *make-job* government *investment*  
when the money (or credit) is key-stroked out of thin air and then  
lent at compounded interest, which adds to the stupendous existing  
debt load?  It's like using a flame thrower to put out a building fire.

There's more knowledge about the failings of the existing worldwide  
banking/monetary systems thanks to the Internet, but it has yet to  
make any sizable dents in governmental public policy ?? anywhere in  
the world, not just the U.S. and England.

I believe some change is inevitable just by doing the math: current  
debt cannot possibly, ever be repaid.  Real economic production/ 
consumption simply cannot pay for it.

To turn this economic ship around is really simple, but nobody in  
government seems to have the will to do it.  Like Rodney says, open  
up a new, interest-free loan supply from the central banks to  
qualifying businesses who truly are interested in spreading  
productive capacity to ALL their stakeholders, and not just to make  
management of the firm rich.

As disclosed in the company's annual proxy statement, the company I  
work for pays on average for capital compounded interest at 6.5%   
This expense stand between my company comfortably existing in the  
economy or slowly being bled into bankruptcy.

At stockholder meetings, I bring up this FACT, and the FACT that we  
could attract capital differently (like through worker and customer  
sharing patronage equity in our assets) and they all look at me like  
I'm crazy!

I was reading J. Krishnamurti the other day.  He wrote in "You are  
the World" (circa 1972) that mindless searching for "truth" is really  
futile.  Because the searching mind can only find what it already  
knows; the human mind doesn't have the capacity to find the unknown.   
This is why we must discipline ourselves to think in a meditative  
sense, where we are truly open to new revelations that can only be  
revealed when we empty our minds, or calmly switch it off.

The mind's vision is the projection of its own conditioning.  We must  
extend out past what we have been taught or what we *think* is real.   
One can see things like the monetary/banking system has totally  
enslaved humankind.  But this can only come when we lose ourselves  
and observe clearly like a mirror what's staring us fiendishly in the  
face.

Steve Nieman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On Jan 27, 2009, at 12:51 AM, Rodney Shakespeare wrote:

> 3.    As regards the present system being to blame, it is necessary  
> to say why the financial/economic system is to blame  and then  
> provide a practical and desirable way to change it.
>
> I mention this because  in the last four weeks I have done or  
> participated in  nine TV or radio broadcasts of one sort or another  
> and five were twenty five minutes or more (of which one was a  
> televised broadcast of a one hour lecture) and am putting across  
> the following message:-
>
> a) The banking system is to blame for the global economic crisis  
> which will soon become a slump.  Present 'remedies' are creating  
> more of the thing which caused the problem in the first place.
>
> The banking system is responsible because it creates money out of  
> nothing; adds interest, as well as administrative cost, and does  
> not direct the money to the development and spreading of productive  
> (and the associated consuming) capacity ) so as to achieve a  
> balance of supply and demand with producers and consumers being the  
> same people.  The result is huge, unrepayable debt and an economic  
> system which is profoundly out of kilter with little relation to  
> the needs of a real economy as well as social and economic justice
>
> b) The solution is to stop the banking system creating money -- let  
> it lend its own capital and, with permission, the deposits of  
> customers.  This is done by a gradual rise to 100% bank reserves.
>
> At the same time, open up a new, interest-free loan supply from the  
> central bank (administered by the banking system which may charge  
> administration cost) for the purpose of developing and spreading  
> productive capacity and forwarding social and economic justice.   
> See the diagram at www.binaryeconomics.net
>
>
> Rodney Shakespeare.

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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan 27 11:15:24 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:15:24 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] How the U.S. Government can make you rich...
In-Reply-To: <1199813538.28527@foolsubs.com>
Message-ID: <816748.51906.qm@web27404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

? Dear All,
?
???????????? An investors view on Obamanomics,and how to make it big time to use the American expression!
?
?
R.Searle.

--- On Tue, 27/1/09, The Motley Fool <Fool at foolsubs.com> wrote:

From: The Motley Fool <Fool at foolsubs.com>
Subject: How the U.S. Government can make you rich...
To: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Tuesday, 27 January, 2009, 5:36 PM




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Obama's 100-Day
Profit Plan
Priority One: Fix the Economy
Now, with an estimated $850 billion projected to
flood the market, here are the sectors you need
to watch and 3 companies you need to
know about right away. Why?
Because they could make you
very, very rich in 2009...
Good Afternoon Fellow Investor,




"The Motley Fool's panache is a cover for a belief in the old-fashioned virtues of patience, simplicity and prudence."
-- U.S. News & World Report
"The Motley Fool has always been a great place for beginners to cut their investing teeth, but it also offers enough of everything else to please seasoned investors."
-- Barron's






START NOW


It began January 20, 2009, at high noon on the steps of the United States Capitol...
The swearing in of America's 44th president and the start of a new administration...
And the truth is it doesn't matter which side of the political aisle you're on...
Because right now, things are about to move in a different direction.
It has to do with President Obama's pledge (along with the likely support of the 111th Congress) to "swiftly and boldly" reset the economic landscape.
His plan?
To infuse an estimated $850 billion to get the economy moving again.
And regardless of whether or not you believe this kind of stimulus plan is the right way to fix the financial mess we're facing...
For serious investors, it could mean the opportunity of a lifetime.
Because if you're looking to build real wealth in 2009 and beyond, you won't want to ignore where all this money is going.
You see, Obama's massive new spending spree means that key sectors are about to be flooded with money from Washington.
And inside those key sectors, a select group of companies is going to lead the way.
Keep in mind this has nothing to do with a bailout plan...
Instead it's based on a series of direct investments designed to jump-start the economy and spur a wave of job creation in the private sector.
Which means while the rest of American businesses struggle to get out of this recession...
These select companies will be seeing "locked in" revenue and profit streams over the next few years.
It all boils down to some huge gains for investors who know how to take advantage of the situation.
So when will the boom begin... which sectors do you need to know about... which companies stand to profit the most... and more important how can you use this information to build some real wealth in 2009?
Here's the full story...
8,225% Gains Thanks to the U.S. Government...
A look back in history shows that most major U.S. industry booms started when Washington began signing checks for research and development initiatives... offering generous tax subsidies... and establishing production mandates...
Back in the 1940s it was the defense industry...
In the 1950s and 1960s the electronics, auto, and aviation industries soared...
In the 70s it was all about oil...
And the 80s is when the?technology and computer boom began...
But the biggest part of that economic story has to do with everyday folks like you and me...
You see, when the U.S. government moves, and moves in a big way, investors smart enough to follow the money trail can become very, very wealthy...
Let me show you what I mean...
What most folks don't realize is that the field of computer science didn't even exist until the Department of Defense began pumping money into the unknown market of microchips.
In fact, billionaire Larry Ellison's fortune and tech powerhouse Oracle all began with just a small contract from the Central Intelligence Agency.
It's a deal that turned out pretty well for Ellison and those folks who followed the government's lead...
That's because when Oracle started trading in 1986, it was a virtually unknown penny stock...
But over the course of a few years, Oracle's business boomed, handing some early investors "once in a lifetime" gains of over 8,225% and eventually landing Ellison the No. 14 spot on Forbes' list of the wealthiest people in the world.
Amazing.
And how about back in 2005...
That's when President Bush passed the Energy Policy Act.? The legislation was part of the administration's effort to make the U.S. more energy independent.
A key component of the bill included a mandate for increasing the amount of biofuel mixed with gas sold in the U.S.
Ethanol became the key additive, which has meant a virtual boom for the industry and some record-breaking gains for corn and ethanol production companies...
In fact, since 2005, yearly ethanol production has more than doubled and stock gains for some of those corn-based ethanol businesses have soared.
Here's an example...
You may have heard of a conglomerate called Monsanto.
As part of their business they sell herbicide and genetically modified corn.
And since the passage of the Energy Policy Act, that division of their company has become one of the most profitable segments of their business...
In fact revenue from all those corn-based products helped them earn $256 million in profits in just one quarter last year... triple the amount it made during the same period in 2007.
And while it's still debatable whether or not the government's mandate was the right policy move...
No one can argue that it's handing a ton of profits to some companies and big, big gains to smart investors...
You see, prior to the Energy Policy Act, Monsanto traded for about $17 a share...
But over the past few years, shares have rocketed as high as $140, helping some investors pocket gains of more than 748%.
It all comes down to this...
Throughout our history, not only has Washington's focus changed our economy and transformed our lives, it's also helped make some everyday folks like you and me very wealthy.
And it's about to happen again...
How Obama's "Priority One" Can Make You Rich...

"The economy is very sick... the situation is getting worse...
we have to act and act now to break
the momentum of this recession."
-- President Barack Obama
It's really no secret how bad things have gotten...

Investors lost $6.9 trillion of investment money in 2008... 
2008 capped the worst year in the labor market since World War II, with the jobless rate hitting over 8% and... 
Last year bankruptcy filings among publicly traded companies rocketed 74%...
Which is why fixing the economy is front and center for this new administration.
So to deal with what President Obama is calling an "economic crisis of historic proportions," Washington is gearing up to unleash a flood of capital.
So exactly when will all this money get moving into the system?
Apparently not fast enough... recently media outlets have been reporting the pressure's mounting for Congress to fast-track Obama's plan.
Which is precisely the reason I'm writing you this letter.
Now with an unprecedented almost-trillion-dollar stimulus plan on deck, all you need to do is make the right moves today, and the U.S. government could help make you very rich...
2 Sectors and 3 Companies You Need to Know
About Right Now...
So exactly where is all this money going?
Well, President Obama has some very specific ideas in mind:
First off, of the projected $850 billion on the table, a big chuck is targeted toward rebuilding and upgrading the nation's infrastructure.

"We will create millions of jobs by making the single largest new investment in our national infrastructure since the creation of the federal highway system in the 1950s."
-- President Barack Obama
Part of the plan includes upgrading school buildings and repairing roads, bridges, and tunnels as well as modernizing more than?75% of the nation's federal buildings.
All of which means a huge boom in the construction industry could be under way.
In fact, state and local officials have already identified close to $100 billion of "shovel ready" projects that have already been planned and approved.
Simply put, within a matter of weeks, a select group of construction companies is going to be receiving big checks directly from the U.S.?government.
Simply by owning those key businesses, you'll have the chance to safely and easily make a small fortune.
But that's not all...
There's another key piece to President Obama's plan...
It has to do with a massive restructuring of the health care system in the U.S. -- specifically through electronic medical records.
By introducing new technology and computerizing health records, health care workers could "prevent medical mistakes and help save billions of dollars each year," says President Obama.
The bottom line... the U.S. government is getting ready to move, and to move in a big way...
So what's the best way for you to?profit from all that new government cash about to flood the economy?
Here's what you need to know...
Why This May Be Your Only Way 
to Grow Rich in 2009...
Let me introduce myself...
My name is Kate Ward, and I'm the executive publisher of Motley Fool Stock Advisor.
Stock Advisor?is an investment advisory service created by stock picking gurus David and Tom Gardner. Six years ago they started this special service with one purpose in mind...
To build lasting wealth for you and your family by helping you find deeply undervalued stocks.
We do that by recommending to our readers some of the best businesses on the planet... companies that are flush with cash, have solid balance sheets, and show the very best promise for future growth.
It all adds up to uncovering big gains for our readers...
Gains like...

Marvel Entertainment... up 737% 
Amazon.com... up 236% 
GameStop... up 202%
As we move into this new year and a new administration, we recently uncovered 3 companies poised to be first in line to receive a large portion of the government's cash infusion.
And investors who know how to take advantage of this situation could see gains of 200%, 300%, or even more... as I showed you earlier, it's happened before...




That's why?we recently completed a special report with all the details on these businesses.
It's called How to Profit From President Obama's First 100 Days in Office.
In a moment I'll show you how you can receive this time-sensitive and important research absolutely free...
But first let me tell you a little bit more about these companies and why we believe these 3 moves could be the most profitable you could make in 2009...
Your Personal 100-Day Profit Plan...




So is Stock Advisor?right for you?
Quite honestly only you can decide, but here's what some of our members have to say...
"Secure about our future..."
"I have been a Stock Advisor?subscriber since the beginning. This has been such a good investment for my family. I feel so much more secure about our future (retirement needs and college expenses, which are not too far away)."
-- Dennis I., Glendale, AZ
Thumping the market
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Managing my own portfolio now
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A hobby that pays!
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Retire before I turn 50
"I love the new format. I want to tell you Gardner boys that I appreciate how sensible and accessible your letters and site are. At this pace, you will help me retire before I turn 50. Love it!"
-- Chris H., Bainbridge Island, WA






START NOW


Priority one of this new administration is fixing the economy, and in a matter of weeks, $850 billion is projected to flood the market.
Here are the 3 companies we believe will be receiving a large part of the government's funds...
The best part?
Investors could safely and easily make a small fortune simply by following the money trail...
Investment #1 in Obama's 100-Day Profit Plan 
There's a good chance you've never even heard of this company before, though it's listed on the Fortune 500 and its history dates back over 100 years.
For decades, it's commanded a top spot in the transportation sector?where it plays a leading role in the construction industry.
In fact, this company is a top player in the market for transporting construction equipment and materials.
A role that will no doubt grow even bigger exponentially as President Obama's historic infrastructure upgrade begins.
One of the things we like best about this company is its smart management team...
They have a stellar history of being great stewards with shareholders' money...
Like generating a strong 22% return on equity and paying out a quarterly dividend every year since 1941.
Not only that, but in one of the most difficult markets we've seen in a long time -- recently this company and its smart management were able to grow its profit over 15% year over year.
Amazing, but not surprising...
You see, this century-old operation has been able to do what few other companies can -- not only survive, but thrive no matter what the economic or political climate...
Through decade after decade, world wars, recessions, stock market booms, and stock market busts...
Right now, with the market's recent sell-off, this company is selling at a bargain-basement price.
Bottom line: This is a stock that could easily double in 2009.
Investment #2 in Obama's 100-Day Profit Plan
This company plays a unique role in the construction industry...
They supply hundreds of thousands of parts and tools almost every construction company uses each day.
And with a market cap of just over $2 billion, this small player is quickly becoming the "go-to" just-in-time partner for the many construction outfits that make up the $140 billion materials market.
Customers already love this company's same-day shipping and competitive prices...
And now with President Obama's building and infrastructure directives on the horizon, look for this supplier to dramatically boost its current market share and lock in a new stream of profits.
This company also has a history of doing right by its shareholders, including generous stock buybacks and consistently paying a quarterly dividend (in fact, it's getting ready to send out more than $12 million to its shareholders in just a few weeks).
Another thing I like about this company is the fact that several key executives own significant stakes in this business.
Including one insider alone, who owns more than 18% of the shares outstanding.
If you're interested, I suggest you act quickly on this stock, because it's already on the move... in fact, it's up about 20% in just the past few weeks.
Add in the greater market share we see ahead, and investors can look for some big stock gains in 2009 and in the years ahead.
Investment #3 in Obama's 100-Day Profit Plan
Another key initiative in President Obama's economic stimulus plan is computerizing medical records for all Americans.
After all the technological advancements we've made over the past few decades, it's almost unbelievable that two-thirds of our hospitals and 90% of all U.S. doctors still rely on paper patient records.
Now with the U.S. population topping 300 million, you can easily see how this type of technology mandate will not only produce better and more efficient health care, but also a huge windfall for key health technology companies.
In our extensive research over the past few weeks, we uncovered one tiny software company that's already built a strong position in large medical and dental practices.
In fact, it's already been in the early stages of a major uptrend...
Sales have grown on average 28% per year over the past 5 years...
Its return on equity is a stellar 35% and...
The stock has rocketed more than 700% over the past few years...
And now that President Obama has given a green light for upgrading the entire U.S. health care system to electronic records -- look for it to really take off...
Right now its balance sheet is rock solid with more than $67 million in cash on hand and absolutely no debt.
And while most businesses were struggling to survive in 2008, for its quarter ending October 31, 2008, this company posted record revenue... up more than 30% over the same quarter for the prior year.
A revenue jump that helped boost its stock price 20% even as the S&P 500?fell 38% over the same time period.
Amazing.
Add in the fact that the folks who work there are highly vested in just how well this company does -- almost 35% of its outstanding shares are owned by insiders -- and you can see why this is one company you need to know about and own in 2009.
So here's the bottom line...
As this new administration begins, there's no doubt big changes are on the way...
Big changes for the economy, for the financial markets, and for a select group of American businesses.
Simply by following the trail of all the money the Obama administration is about to unleash, you have the chance to build some real wealth back into your portfolio... not only for 2009, but for the next 5 years and beyond.
And the 3 businesses I've uncovered are the best way to do just that.
The secret is getting in early.
Which is why I'd like to give you all the details on this opportunity and those companies right away.
Everything you need to know is inside our special report How to Profit From President Obama's First 100 Days in Office.
To receive a free copy of this special report, all I ask in return is that you give Motley Fool Stock Advisor?a risk-free trial.
Here's how it works...
Build Your Wealth The Stock Advisor?Way...
Right now Motley Fool Stock Advisor?is outperforming the market
by 29%...






Co-founders of The Motley Fool: Their website was ranked as the #1 financial education site by Barron's. 
Acclaimed authors of best-selling books, including The Motley Fool Investment Guide; Rule Breakers, Rule Makers; You Have More Than You Think;?and What to Do With Your Money Now. As well as Motley Fool Million Dollar Portfolio. 
The weekly Motley Fool financial column is published in newspapers across the U.S. and Canada. Television appearances include MSNBC, CNN, and Fox -- plus the widely acclaimed PBS show The Motley Fool Money-Making, Life-Changing Special.
It's a point to be noted, considering just how brutal a year 2008 was for most folks...
It's one of the reasons why Money.com calls Motley Fool co-founders David and Tom Gardner "among the most widely followed stock advisors in the world."
The point is that?this duo is 100% focused on making real money, no matter what is going on in the markets and in the economy.
And their investment strategies produce real results for folks like you and me.
Just take a look...

Marvel -- up 737% 
Activision Blizzard -- up 413% 
Amazon.com -- up 236%
So how do David and Tom Gardner do what they do??
By drawing on a combined 40 years of stock picking experience and using a smart blend of growth and value investment strategies.
You see, David's a dedicated growth guy.? And aside from solid financials, he's always on the lookout for companies that have an "unquantifiable greatness" -- companies that consumers need, want, and don't want to be without.
And while not every one of his picks is a winner, this knack for uncovering the "best of the best" up-and-coming businesses has paid off in a big way...
Like 138% on Netflix and 199% on Priceline.
Tom also has a great track record of success -- he's more of a strict value guy who spends hours upon hours digging through the financials.
Which means not only is he able to weed out those businesses with toxic liabilities, he's also able to uncover those best-buy businesses -- companies with valuable hidden assets Wall Street and the rest of the world know nothing about.
Tom's helped readers move into some amazing gains... like 120% on Affiliated Managers Group and 95% on Laboratory Corporation of America.
And they've been making those kinds of big-win recommendations month after month, year after year, since 2002.
And today we'd like to make it easy for you to get in on these kinds of gains.
And you can do just that with the recommendations you'll find in our recently completed special report How to Profit From President Obama's First 100 Days in Office.
I'd like to send you this report FREE of charge.? It's our gift to you when you begin a no-risk subscription to Motley Fool Stock Advisor.
What is Stock Advisor?all about?
Let me tell you a little bit more about it...
How Just 60 Minutes a Month 
Could Make You Rich...
We all lead crazy, busy lives...




Where to find 737% gains for just pennies a day...
Look at all the great benefits you receive with your Motley Fool Stock Advisor?membership...

Every month you'll receive not 1, but 2 detailed recommendations from the best investing gurus on the planet. 
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The money we have, along with the wealth we build, affects the quality of those busy lives each day.
That's why every month David, Tom, and their team of analysts spend countless hours analyzing hundreds of stocks in order to bring you our best recommendations for triple-digit gains.
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You'd be sitting on $164,600 today.
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From maryrose333 at att.net  Tue Jan 27 15:22:02 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 14:22:02 -0800
Subject: [GJM] MORE ON: David Korten: "Agenda for a New Economy: From
	Phantom Wealth to Real Wealth"
Message-ID: <000301c980cd$b10a19d0$131e4d70$@net>

MORE ON:  David Korten: "Agenda for a New Economy: From Phantom Wealth to
Real Wealth" FROM A SCIENTIFIC PERSPECTIVE. 

Please see message below from Dr. E. Crockett,Jr., to which this is a reply.


First of all the concept of "angels" arises out of the subtle energy field,
(the quantum wave) of the human body appearing as much as 12  to 15 feet
around the body, dependent upon the signatory "coherence" pattern of an
individual.  And to those who can see auras, or from its measurements
through instrumentation, this energy field appears much like wings on either
side of the body as it is torus shaped. Body coherence, which is measured in
hertz, denotes the health or illness of the body according to how coherent
or incoherent it is in terms of the signals it emits. Coherency is linked to
the heart's beat. Hertz, or the number of subtle energy vibrations per
second also appear as colors with the pure "white light" of the aura around
the body denoting a coherent body with subtle energy vibrations taking place
at about 1100 hertz. This energy field in its torus shape, appears not only
around the human body, but also appears around the earth. It is an
electromagnetic field and underlies all of life. Our human experience
appears to result not only from the earth, but from the frequencies of the
sun, stars and beyond; a large frequency realm within which torus fields are
hierarchically nested within other torus fields. In a state of full
frequency, the body, brain, and heart (with both hemispheres of the brain
entrained) produce a single coherent frequency pulse or what is known in
scientific terms as the "quantum wave force." It is the most powerful force
known.  

In the 1970's, cell biologist, Dr. Bruce Lipton took part in embryonic
research revealing that this electromagnetic field formed around embryonic
forms, whether seeds or eggs, as soon as conception or germination took
place. This field arises from within the embryonic tissue and then curves
out and returns to it in the torus-shaped pattern revealed above much the
same as the em field does from the heart's or the earth's em field (em
meaning electromagnetic field) It appears to also be a "holographic field"
within which much information is contained, and thus acts as the mediator
between our individual biological electromagnetic field and the
electromagnetic field of the universe, in essence, connecting us to the
whole as it gives form to everything serving to hold the universe together.


What science is also revealing today is that individual electromagnetic
fields are able to influence one another with coherent energy fields being
able to influence incoherent or "dis-eased" fields in such a way as to bring
about a more balanced coherence pattern in the diseased field. This happens
in the quantum field as cells communicate with one another via signals, and
on the so-called conventional level as people communicate with one another
through written, orally-spoken and "body language" signals. The reverse may
also be true if a coherent field allows its immune system to be compromised
in such a way as to allow incoherent field energy patterns to enter into it.


What science is also revealing today is that "like-minded" energy
fields/systems tend to attract one other and group together in what is known
as a "collective consciousness" which may be either conscious/coherent or
unconscious/diseased and acting according to how its main members have been
programmed from birth to ages seven to ten. According to research studies,
most individuals are born with a "holographic" mind and thus universally
connected. However, due to our educational system, which has become
increasingly dissociated from nature, between the ages of seven to ten many
young minds become dissociated and left-brain oriented as teaching is
directed toward this hemisphere in order to stifle creative thinking and
produce the desired "sheeple" of an industrialized, mechanized, highly
technological society operating from its head and having lost contact with
its heart. We might perhaps call this group "fascist" in nature. 

Dr. V. Vernon Woolf's research reveals that incoherent or dis-eased thought
patterns may also be passed down from generation to generation. Woolf refers
to these patterns as "Holodynes, which are defined as: "information systems
or holographic thought patterns that have the power to cause" and operate
from the level of the sub-conscious mind. Since Rolfing or other body work
appears to release these patterns and bring them into awareness of the
conscious mind, the theory that these Holodynes are stored in the ionized
water molecules of the microtubules of each cell in our body, bears weight.
These information fields appear to be "immature systems" which must be
transformed into more mature systems in order for the system as a whole to
act in a coherent manner.        

So, now, back to the human system as a whole, what we see happening is
another group or system emerging that might be compared to the white cells
of our body coming to the rescue as directed by our immune system in order
to heal the disease. Let us call this the "Blessed Unrest" movement.
Spontaneous in its evolution, it has no leader. All of its cells know what
to do by turning to their inner "christed" (Christ) consciousness, and,
following a timeless desire for health and wellness innate within them,
begin to shine their white light into the darkness of the fascist virus and
stifle it in its path with their radiation.  

What quantum physics tells us is that where we focus our energy is what we
become. You want to focus your energy, Dr. Crockett on the fascist movement,
fine. Be my guest. I will continue to march with and build the Blessed
Unrest movement in all of its glory as a representative of The White Light.


An Angel and an avid pursuer of truth through journalistic effort based on
the scientific research of many others to whom I am grateful for sharing
their knowledge.     
mary rose

Bibliography
 Bruce Lipton, Ph.D. -    The Biology of Belief and other published works
 V. Vernon Woolf, Ph.D. - The Dance of Life and other published works
 Joseph Chilton Pearce -  The Biology of Transcendence
 Valerie V. Hunt, Ph.D. - Infinite Mind - Science of the human vibrations of
consciousness
 Deepak Chopra, M.D.    - Quantum Healing and other published works  
 Candace Pert, Ph.D.    - Molecules of Emotion
 Daniel Goleman, Ph.D.  - Emotional Intelligence, Social Intelligence
 Joyce Whitney Hawkes Ph.D. - Cell Level Healing, The Bridge from Soul to
Cell 
 Lawrence Fagg, Ph.D. -   Electromagnetism and The Sacred 
 Carla Hannaford, Ph.D -  The Dominance Factor 
 Ervin Laszlo, Ph.D.      Science and the Akashic Field - An Integral Theory
of Everything
 Lynne McTaggart          The Field and other published works
 Rupert Sheldrake, Ph.D   A New Science of Life - Morphic Resonance 

P.S. As most of you reading this will recall, over the course of my writing,
I have referred to a group of people whom I have traced back to their
beginnings as they emerged in the Russian Steppes Region, as those imbued
with what I call "the Kurgan Cattle Culture Consciousness." And, I have also
traced them from their beginning to the present day in which they are
referred to as "Neo-cons". It is my belief that for whatever reason, this
group of people passed a particularly virulent form of Holodyne, which has
been resistant to transformation, down through the ages from generation to
generation and into the present time. And, while this virulent-appearing
system has played much havoc over the centuries, creating many of the moral
horrors in our ever-evolving social and cultural system, I have also arrived
at the conclusion that this aberrant and socially immoral system has also
played a vital role in moving the human family from one level of
consciousness to the next. It appears to continually provide the image of
where it is we do not want to be, thus serving as impetus to move us as the
human family ever forward into greater and ever more multi-dimensional
stages of wholeness and good health.

27 January 2009          
                

-----Original Message-----
From: E. Crockett [mailto:echojurist at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:31 PM
To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net; FixGov at yahoogroups.com;
maryrose333 at att.net
Subject: Re: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] David Korten: "Agenda for a
New Economy: From Phantom Wealth to Real Wealth"

Happy Chinese New Year To All

From:  Dr. Ulysses S. Crockett, Jr.  To:  Angelic Mary Rose & colleagues

1.  Thank you so much for including the transcript of the Democracy Now
interview of Prof. David Korten.  Wish interviewers would spell the names of
interviewees for those of us taking notes when there is no transcript.

2.  Unfortunately, few, if any of our egalitarian economic advocates note
the names, backgrounds and actual control of the world finance system
controllers.  For example, neither Amy Goodman, Thom Hartman, Rachael Nadow,
Randi Rhodes, Noam Chomsky, Ed Schultz, Bill Press, Ron Reagan, Peter B.
Collins- ever mention the words "Bilderberg Group, Council On Foreign
Relations, Trilateral Commission,  David Rockefeller, indicted war criminal
Henry Kissinger, Vernon Jordan."   Alex Jones with infowars.com and
prisonplanet.com is the only humanitarian advocate exposing Richard
Holbroke, Vernon Jordan (U.S. Bilderberg Chair) and other Bilderberg members
(Diane Feinstein, John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, Christopher Dodd (supporter
of Geithner), Nancy Pelosi, Bernie Frank, Harry Reid, et al). Pre-Obama
Inaugural, Vernon Jordan hosted Obama Senior Advisor Valarie Jarrett at his
home for dinner.  So the plutocrat Bilderberg machine rolls.  Thus, it is
understandable
 that Timothy Geithner,  N.Y. Federal Reserve Board architect of the current
U.S. economic depression and financial collapse, was selectded as Treasury
Secretary by the Obama Bilderberg-Council On Foreign Relations-Trilateral
Commission emplpoyers.  Obama is an employee of all three plutocrat
privately-owned Rothschild dominated world financial, foreign policy,
military operations controllers.

Readers are asked to visit infowars.com to view Alex Jones' video of
Bilderbgerg meetings, list of attendees and subject matter discussed.

--- On Mon, 1/26/09, mary rose <maryrose333 at att.net> wrote:

> From: mary rose <maryrose333 at att.net>
> Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] David Korten: "Agenda for a New
Economy: From Phantom Wealth to Real Wealth"
> To: "'Discussion Forum for Global Justice'"
<discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>, FixGov at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 7:24 PM
> What we are witnessing here is David Korten, as a
> representative of the
> BLESSED UNREST movement, which started with the
> "Cultural Creatives," or
> "Integral Creatives" as some call them, movement
> back before the turn of the
> century, speaking out in the interests of
> "we-the-people."  This movement
> began as a "spontaneous woman-led movement" and
> has matured into what Paul
> Hawken, author of the book, BLESSED UNREST, identifies as
> "the largest
> movement the world has ever known." And, the new
> administration is going to
> have a difficult time justifying its agenda as the
> representatives of this
> movement hold Obama's feet to the fire through these
> "don't try to give us
> any bull shit" dialogs headed up by people like Hawken
> and Korten who know
> their way around the arena. Both of them are highly
> acclaimed authors of
> several best-selling books on what's wrong with the
> economy and how to cure
> it. Hawken predicted this depression and to the depth to
> which it would go
> in his book: "The Next Economy" back in 1984. He
> followed it up with "The
> Ecology of Commerce," and then "Natural
> Capitalism" before writing "Blessed
> Unrest." Where we need to focus our attention, IMHO,
> is on this movement
> first and what Obama is doing second. m r       
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
> [mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On
> Behalf Of
> TradingPostPaul
> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 4:53 PM
> To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
> Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] David Korten: "Agenda
> for a New Economy:
> >From Phantom Wealth to Real Wealth"
> 
> 
> (To change your settings or unsubscribe please go to
> http://lists.riseup.net/www/info/globalnetnews-summary)
> 
> David Korten: "Agenda for a New Economy: From Phantom
> Wealth to Real
> Wealth"
> January 26, 2009
> http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/26/david_korten_agenda_for_a_new
> 
> As President Barack Obama reveals more details of his $825
> billion economic
> stimulus plan, we turn to David Korten of YES! Magazine. In
> his new book,
> Korten argues that the nation faces a monumental economic
> challenge that
> goes far beyond anything being discussed in Congress. He
> writes that now is
> an opportune moment to move forward an agenda to replace
> the failed
> money-serving institutions of our present economy with the
> institutions of
> a new economy dedicated to serving life. [includes rush
> transcript]
> 
> David Korten, co-founder and board chair of YES! Magazine.
> He is also a
> former professor at Harvard University's Graduate
> School of Business and
> the author of several books, including When Corporations
> Rule the World and
> The Great Turning: From Empire to Earth Community. His
> newest book is
> titled Agenda for a New Economy: From Phantom Wealth to
> Real Wealth
> (Berrett-Koehler).
> 
> AMY GOODMAN: President Barack Obama has revealed more
> details of his $825
> billion economic stimulus plan ahead of its introduction on
> the House floor
> this week. In his first weekly radio address as president,
> Obama said the
> plan would fund a new 3,000-mile electricity grid,
> computerize the
> nation's health records, modernize schools, and repair
> and modernize the
> country's mass transit system.
> 
>       PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: To accelerate the creation of
> a clean energy
> economy, we will double our capacity to generate
> alternative sources of
> energy, like wind, solar and biofuels, over the next three
> years. We'll
> begin to build a new electricity grid that lay down more
> than 3,000 miles
> of transmission lines to convey this new energy from coast
> to coast.
> We'll save taxpayers $2 billion a year by making 75
> percent of federal
> buildings more energy efficient and save the average
> working family $350 on
> their energy bills by weatherizing 2.5 million homes.
> 
>       To lower healthcare cost, cut medical errors and
> improve care,
> we'll computerize the nation's health records in
> five years, saving
> billions of dollars in healthcare costs and countless
> lives. And we'll
> protect health insurance for more than eight million
> Americans who are in
> danger of losing their coverage during this economic
> downturn.
> 
>       To ensure our children can compete and succeed in
> this new economy,
> we'll renovate and modernize 10,000 schools, building
> state-of-the-art
> classrooms, libraries and labs to improve learning for over
> five million
> students. We'll invest more in Pell Grants to make
> college affordable for
> seven million more students, provide a $2,500 college tax
> credit to four
> million students, and triple the number of fellowships in
> science to help
> spur the next generation of innovation.
> 
>       Finally, we will rebuild and retrofit America to meet
> the demands of
> the twenty-first century. That means repairing and
> modernizing thousands of
> miles of America's roadways and providing new mass
> transit options for
> millions of Americans. It means protecting America by
> securing ninety major
> ports and creating a better communications network for
> local law
> enforcement and public safety officials in the event of an
> emergency. And
> it means expanding broadband access to millions of
> Americans, so business
> can compete on a level playing field, wherever they're
> located.
> 
>       I know that some are skeptical about the size and
> scale of this
> recovery plan. I understand that skepticism, which is why
> this recovery
> plan must and will include unprecedented measures that will
> allow the
> American people to hold my administration accountable for
> these results. We
> won't just throw money at our problems; we'll
> invest in what works.
> 
> 
> AMY GOODMAN: President Obama in his first weekly
> presidential radio
> address.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Obama administration could be planning on
> spending even more
> money to bail out the nation's banks. Speaking on
> CBS's Face the
> Nation, Vice President Joe Biden said Treasury Secretary
> nominee Timothy
> Geithner will soon report on whether he thinks banks need
> more bailout
> money. Speculation is growing that the Obama administration
> may decide to
> nationalize two of the nation's largest banks:
> Citigroup and Bank of
> America. Earlier this month, the Bush Treasury Department
> announced an
> additional $118 billion infusion for Bank of America.
> Citigroup recently
> announced it suffered an $8 billion net loss in the fourth
> quarter.
> 
> For more on the economy, I want to turn now to David
> Korten, co-founder of
> Positive Futures Network and publisher of the magazine
> YES!. He is also a
> former professor at Harvard University's Graduate
> School of Business and
> the author of several books, including When Corporations
> Rule the World and
> The Great Turning: From Empire to Earth Community. His
> newest book is just
> out, called Agenda for a New Economy: From Phantom Wealth
> to Real Wealth.
> In it, David Korten argues the nation faces a monumental
> economic challenge
> that goes far beyond anything being discussed in Congress.
> He writes that
> now is an opportune moment to move forward an agenda to
> replace the failed
> money-serving institutions of our present economy with the
> institutions of
> a new economy dedicated to serving life.
> 
> Juan Gonzalez and I spoke to David Korten on Friday about
> the nation's
> economic crisis and how it should be addressed.
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: Well, it really starts with being clear
> that we have a
> failed economic system. And we've seen very
> dramatically the consequences
> of the financial failure. But what we're not talking
> about is the
> connection to the environmental failure, the destruction of
> earth's
> living systems, and the social failure of an economic
> system that by its
> very design, particularly as manifest on Wall Street, is
> designed to
> increase inequality. You know, having worked in
> international development
> for many years, I'm very familiar with the argument
> that the way to deal
> with poverty is, through economic growth, to bring up the
> bottom. But, of
> course, what we see-and we've seen this for decades-is
> that, in fact,
> economic growth tends to raise the top and depress the
> bottom.
> 
>       Now, part of it's coming to terms with the fact
> that we live on a
> finite planet. We've got finite resources. And the
> question is, what are
> our economic priorities? How do we allocate those
> resources? And it
> requires a fundamentally different approach to the economy:
> evaluating
> economic performance by the things that we really want, in
> terms of human
> and natural well-being, rather than a system that is purely
> designed to
> increase financial returns to the already very wealthy.
> 
>       JUAN GONZALEZ: Your book's subtitle, From a
> Phantom Wealth to Real
> Wealth-what is phantom wealth?
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: Yeah. This is part of understanding the
> current Wall
> Street system, which is built around an illusion, the
> illusion that money
> is wealth, which then translates into the idea that people
> who are
> creating-or who are making money are in fact creating
> wealth. And what
> Wall Street has become extremely expert at is creating
> money out of nothing
> through financial bubbles, through pyramiding lending to
> create fictitious
> assets that become collateral for more bank lending, and
> then combining
> that with the predatory aspects of usurious lending and
> deceptive lending
> and the use of credit cards as a substitute for a living
> wage-all the
> games that Wall Street is playing. And it's actually
> based on a
> philosophy that says we don't need to produce anything
> as a country, if
> we can-you know, if we can do all this financial innovation
> that allows
> us to create financial assets without producing anything of
> real value. I
> mean, it's absolutely insane. And yet, it is
> the-it's been the
> foundation of our economic policy in this country for
> decades now.
> 
>       AMY GOODMAN: You have spent your life focusing on
> issues of
> sustainability. You talk about excess consumption. What is
> the model that
> you could see right now? What is the model that we have
> right now? And what
> is the one you want to see built?
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: Yeah, well, the amazing thing is that
> our system is
> built on driving increased consumption, but particularly it
> is driving the
> most destructive and wasteful forms of consumption, of
> course, starting
> with war, moving on to automobile dependence, and which is
> not just about
> the energy issue, but it's about the fragmentation of
> society, as we move
> out into the suburbs. It's about the breakdown of the
> family, as we put
> more and more stress on the family. So you have to have two
> or more people
> in the household working more than one job each just to
> keep the household
> together, which means the children are without caretakers
> and so forth.
> 
>       You begin to put this all together, you say, well, if
> we began to
> really organize our economic activities around the things
> that really
> matter, we'd be looking at things-well, how do we
> organize our economy
> so that it actually builds human relationships, so it
> supports families, so
> it creates an environment in which our children can grow up
> both physically
> and psychologically healthy? And we begin to say, well,
> first of all, it
> would be a good idea to end war. And, of course, most of
> our wars are about
> competition for resources to maintain our wasteful
> lifestyle. So let's
> really get serious about world peace. Then we've got to
> start reducing
> our dependence on automobiles and recognize that rather
> than reemploying
> autoworkers in making automobiles, we should be employing
> them in building
> bicycles, building public transportation and so forth, all
> the things we
> need. Instead of investing massively in advertising, you
> know, redirect
> those creative communications resources to education. You
> begin to see, in
> almost every aspect of our economy, the opportunity to
> redirect resources
> in ways that actually increase our well-being-they're
> not about
> sacrifice, ultimately-and bringing ourselves into balance
> with one
> another and with earth.
> 
> 
> AMY GOODMAN: David Korten, author of Agenda for a New
> Economy: From Phantom
> Wealth to Real Wealth: Why Wall Street Can't Be Fixed
> and How to Replace
> It. We'll come back to the interview in a minute.
> 
> [break]
> 
> AMY GOODMAN: We return to our interview with David Korten,
> author of Agenda
> for a New Economy: From Phantom Wealth to Real Wealth: Why
> Wall Street
> Can't Be Fixed and How to [Replace] It.
> 
>       JUAN GONZALEZ: You talk about this as a much more
> holistic and
> fundamental approach to the crisis we're facing right
> now, but a few days
> ago, in his inaugural speech, President Obama, in the only
> reference he
> made really to the market, he said something to the effect
> that
> government-without the watchful eye of government, the
> market can
> sometimes spin out of control, but that basically
> reaffirming our markets
> and our system as the best to offer for the world. Your
> sense of his
> response, given the nature of the crisis you think we face
> right now?
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: Well, it's always hard to tell
> exactly what that
> translates into, but I think the bottom line of what
> he's saying is that
> for a market to function efficiently in the service of
> society, it has to
> operate within a framework of rules. And it's
> interesting. You know, by
> my understanding of real market economics, that's a
> fundamental part of
> market efficiency. Now, of course, what we've been
> driven by is an
> economic ideology that claims to be a market theory, but in
> fact is
> anti-market, because what happens, if you try to operate a
> market without
> rules, you get this consolidation of power, the disconnect
> of financial
> power from the real economy of real people and real goods
> and services, and
> you develop a totally extractive economy.
> 
>       You know, theoretically in economics, economists talk
> about markets
> as a range, from the purely competitive market, which-you
> know, the kind
> of model would be the farmers' market, like down here
> at Union Square,
> where I used to live; at the other end is the purely
> monopolistic or
> monopoly market, which has none of the beneficial features
> of the perfect
> competition. But they say, well, because the perfect
> competition works
> really well, you know, the market economy is the way to go.
> 
>       I mean, basically, we need to realize we've been
> told that there
> are only two economic models. One is the capitalist model,
> and the other is
> the communist or socialist model. One, the capitalists own
> everything, and
> the other, the government runs everything. The real
> alternative is, in
> fact, a real market economy that looks a whole lot more
> like what Adam
> Smith had in mind, which is-which looks more like a
> farmers' market.
> And I think-you know, we talk about Wall Street and Main
> Street, and
> really the solution is to rebuild a new economy based on
> Main Street, which
> means local businesses and people who are rooted in their
> community and
> working within a framework of community values and a set of
> public rules
> that enforce basic conditions of market efficiency.
> 
>       JUAN GONZALEZ: Isn't part of the problem-is, here
> you talk about
> the-even in the classical style of capitalism, we've
> seen a huge turn
> away. For instance, so much of our financial system now is
> in derivatives
> and credit default swaps and all of these unregulated and
> almost unknown-
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: Yes.
> 
>       JUAN GONZALEZ: -aspects of the financial system, and
> then the rise
> in recent years of all of these private equity firms. At
> least in the
> classic corporation, there are shareholders, and there are
> boards of
> directors, and you have filings with the SEC, and you have
> some sort of
> transparency. But now, with these private equity firms
> dominating so much
> of investment and with all of these off-the-books financial
> systems, you
> really have a system that no one even knows how deep the
> problem is.
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: That's absolutely right. And, you
> know, the values
> have morphed further and further away from any kind of
> connection to or
> commitment to a larger public interest. And, of course,
> underlying this is
> also this immoral philosophy that says if we each simply
> pursue our
> individual financial benefit, that this maximizes the
> benefit for the
> society. Now that is about as corrupt a theory as one could
> imagine. We are
> seeing the consequences of it.
> 
>       And one of the things we have to break out of is to
> recognize that
> that is a-it's pragmatically flawed, it is morally
> flawed, that there
> is a community interest, and it beholds every one of us in
> every aspect of
> our life to recognize not only our personal interest, but
> also the
> collective interest, which means we've got to create a
> totally different
> economy around different institutions and different values.
> 
>       AMY GOODMAN: Now, as people listen to you, David
> Korten, they might
> be saying this is really pie in the sky. But it sounds like
> you're
> redefining it as apple pie in the sky, right? As patriotic.
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: It is patriotic. It's democratic.
> 
>       AMY GOODMAN: You're saying that Wall Street
> can't be fixed. How
> do we replace it? Lay out how the environment fits into
> this and exactly
> what you mean when you say, you know, families should be
> able to do things
> more together. How do people survive? Why is Main Street
> more real than
> Wall Street?
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: Well, because Wall Street is totally in
> the business of
> creating phantom wealth. You know, it goes back to one of
> the fundamentals
> that I realized when I was working in international
> development and I began
> to wonder, "Why is it that the more developed the
> country gets, there's
> more and more people living in poverty?" And it comes
> down to a very
> simple recognition. All the decisions that we make and
> official aid
> agencies are based on, what will maximize the returns to
> money, which means
> to people who already have money. And people who don't
> have any money
> basically don't fit into the equation. And that's
> the way our whole
> economy, the whole Wall Street picture, is defined.
> 
>       So, you know, part of the shift is recognizing,
> again, that the whole
> concept of economic growth is flawed in terms of how we
> measure it, because
> in fact what economic growth really measures is the cost of
> producing
> whatever level of human well-being, health and well-being,
> we have
> achieved. So, in an economy that works, we would start
> assessing economic
> performance against indicators of the health of our
> children, of our
> families, of our communities, the health of our natural
> systems, and we
> would look at GDP as a measure of the cost of that
> attainment, so we would
> be trying to minimize GDP rather than maximize it, as we
> organize economies
> that are really about-they're about building community.
> They are about
> providing people with meaningful jobs that give us a sense
> of personal
> meaning in our lives.
> 
>       AMY GOODMAN: Give us an example.
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: Well, I mean, one of the interesting
> examples is the
> data that shows that people who shop in a farmers'
> market have ten times
> the number of conversations of people who shop in a
> supermarket. And, you
> know, I know that from when I lived here in New York on
> Union Square and I
> did most of my grocery shopping at the farmers' market.
> And, yeah, you
> meet people, and you talk, and you meet your neighbors, and
> you get
> acquainted with the farmer that grows your produce and so
> forth. And this
> is all about building relationships. And, you know, we have
> so monetized
> the economy, and a part of that process is monetizing
> relationships. And it
> diminishes our very humanity.
> 
>       JUAN GONZALEZ: I'd like to ask you to put this
> more in the
> perspective of our global economy. Clearly, one of the
> great economic
> trends of the past fifty years is that the industrial
> heartland of America
> has moved from the Midwest to China-
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: Yes.
> 
>       JUAN GONZALEZ: -to India, to the developing world.
> And much of the
> production of the West is now in countries where the labor
> standards under
> which that production is made is far inferior to where it
> was made when it
> was here, in western Europe or in the United States.
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: Yes.
> 
>       JUAN GONZALEZ: That's, it seems to me, at this
> point, an almost
> irreversible trend. How will that affect the future of
> American society in
> twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years?
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: Well, in some ways, it is a very
> reversible trend,
> because we have been supporting that purely by living off
> of consumer
> credit extended by the rest of the world, and the rest of
> the world is
> beginning to finally wake up to the fact that the US dollar
> is not worth as
> much as we all thought it was, because our own economy is
> increasingly
> built on-you know, and this has been an explicit policy-the
> growth of
> the financial sector is a percentage of our total economy,
> so we built an
> economy that assumes that we can live by simply creating
> money out of
> nothing, advertising to sell goods and services produced in
> China, security
> services to maintain order in the face of breakdown, health
> services to
> make up for the fact that we're eating crummy
> non-nutritious food and
> ingesting all sorts of toxins from the environment, and
> toxic waste
> cleanup. Now, this is not the foundation for much of an
> economy. The rest
> of the world is at some point going to stop sending us
> their goods and
> their food, because they're going to realize that
> they're much better
> off to eat that food themselves and to produce shoes for
> their own children
> rather than shipping to us. So either we get cracking on
> rebuilding our
> economy and our capacity to produce, or we're going to
> end up in a pretty
> desperate strait in the not-too-distant future.
> 
>       And, of course, while we're doing this, we need
> to rebuild all that
> around a model that is environmentally sustainable, which
> means our total
> consumption of material goods has to drop significantly.
> But if you put it
> in the context of, well, if we get rid of our
> military-industrial complex;
> if we begin to roll back our suburbs, to begin to reform
> ourselves into
> more compact communities so that we eliminate our
> automobile dependence; if
> we start putting more of our energy into education and into
> primary
> healthcare and all the things that are essential to a good
> society; we
> begin to rebuild the relationships of community, people
> begin to find
> satisfaction in their jobs because they're really
> producing goods and
> services that help their neighbors, and they feel like
> they're
> contributing to their community.
> 
>       Now, you know, the amount of adjustment that we have
> to make in order
> for all this to happen is huge, and that cannot be
> downplayed. You know,
> we've done work in fifty years to create this
> monstrosity of an economy
> that runs on a fossil fuel subsidy that's being
> withdrawn and that is
> based on this premise that if we just make more money out
> of nothing, we
> are more prosperous. So this is kind of a wake-up call.
> We've been living
> in a trance.
> 
>       AMY GOODMAN: David Korten, Inauguration Day, Wall
> Street experienced
> one of its greatest dives down. Very interesting. As one
> said, Wall Street
> jeered, while Washington cheered.
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: As the world cheered.
> 
>       AMY GOODMAN: As the world cheered. You had, by the
> closing bell, the
> Dow Jones Industrial Average down 322 points, below 8,000.
> S&P 500 Index
> dropped forty-five points, more than five percent. It
> rarely goes below one
> percent. How is the Dow Jones related to real life? When it
> goes up, is
> that good for America? Is that good for the world? When it
> goes down, is
> that bad?
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: Well, the interesting thing is, when it
> goes up, what
> it really means is that rich people are getting richer than
> the rest of us,
> or they're getting richer faster. And it's actually
> bad. Now, you know,
> if you really accepted it in the context of the way
> we're supposed to
> think about it, that is generating more and more resources
> for productive
> activity. But in fact, most of the Wall Street funding is
> focused on
> funding speculation. And, of course, most of the trading,
> at least 90
> percent of the trading, probably more like 95 percent of
> the trading, that
> goes on on Wall Street has nothing to do with funding real
> businesses;
> it's just exchanging pieces of paper. So, you know,
> when the market goes
> up quickly, that's a financial bubble. It has
> absolutely nothing to do
> with anything related to real wealth. I mean, this is part
> of the insanity
> of it, that we have come to believe that a financial bubble
> is actually
> creating wealth, where it does absolutely nothing except
> create additional
> financial credits. And yet, the business commentators are
> always talking
> about, we created so much-so much wealth was created in the
> market today,
> or so much wealth was destroyed. That's the phantom
> wealth.
> 
>       JUAN GONZALEZ: And what part of some of your
> prescriptions for a way
> out of this economic quagmire do you believe that the team
> that Barack
> Obama is assembled-Larry Summers and Timothy Geithner and
> these
> others-will be able or even willing to try to address?
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: Well, certainly, Summers is one of the
> ultimate
> neoliberal, free market ideologues.
> 
>       AMY GOODMAN: What does that mean?
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: It means he has been a promoter of the
> idea of
> unregulated markets. He was-by my understanding, he was
> actively involved
> in the dismantling of Glass-Steagall, so that you could
> consolidate the
> depository banks with the investment banks with the
> brokerages and so
> forth, which then get us into banks creating money by
> lending it
> essentially to themselves. That's where the system
> really starts spinning
> out of control.
> 
>       You know, Timothy Geithner was head of the New York
> Federal Reserve,
> which really is considered to be the lead Federal Reserve
> organization all
> during the time that they were going through the processes
> of deregulating
> the financial markets and even the Federal Reserve, pouring
> trillions of
> dollars that go way beyond the bailout of the Treasury
> Department.
> 
>       So it's hard for me to see that these folks have
> a framework
> consistent with where we need to move and that they have a
> recognition that
> Wall Street, as we know it, basically needs to be allowed
> to fail. And, in
> fact, we should be putting in regulations not only to make
> it-not to make
> it work, but to stop the speculation. And if you stop the
> speculation, if
> you stop the usury, the excessive interest charges and so
> forth, Wall
> Street will in fact collapse. Now, I was fascinated. I
> hadn't heard this
> yet, but you mentioned that the government is starting to
> actually talk
> about takeover of some of the big banks. Now that, if they
> do it right, is
> potentially a right step.
> 
>       AMY GOODMAN: Krugman has said nationalize the banks.
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: Yeah. Now, my sense of what we really
> need to do is
> nationalize the depository banks, let the hedge funds and
> private equity
> funds fail, but not with the idea that the government will
> permanently run
> the banking system as nationalized banks, but that they go
> through a
> transition of spinning those banks off into community
> banks, in a sense
> restoring the unitary banking system that we had some
> decades ago, where
> the banks were organized and functioned as local financial
> institutions,
> where people could deposit their savings, and the banks
> could make loans to
> people that were buying a house or running a business,
> which is the way the
> system should be structured.
> 
>       Now, the other piece that we need to deal with is the
> whole question
> of how we create money, which is not very much publicly
> discussed. But
> moving from the current system, where we essentially rely
> on banks to
> create money by lending it into existence, which creates
> all kinds of
> financial instability, and it also means that, in a sense,
> every economic
> transaction, we're paying rent to the bank for the
> money, when it's
> quite possible for government to spend the money into
> existence, as it is
> needed, to build a much more stable money supply. And that
> means that-you
> know, that lowers taxes.
> 
>       You know, in terms of the Obama stimulus package,
> people talk,
> "Where does that money come from?" And it's
> very likely, if we do it
> in the traditional way, we'll either borrow it from the
> banks, which
> means the banks will create it out of nothing and we will
> be paying
> interest on it, or if we borrow it abroad, it may be banks
> in China or
> Japan creating the money, which then we pay interest on.
> And it makes a
> whole lot more sense to develop a whole new orderly system
> by which the
> money is essentially issued by the federal government, and
> then we don't
> owe anybody anything.
> 
>       AMY GOODMAN: What if the banks are nationalized? The
> taxpayers have
> to take on the bad debt, the bad assets, and then they
> reprivatize them
> when they get healthy.
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: Well, that's an interesting
> question. I think
> there's good reason to say, "Don't take on the
> bad debts." You
> know? Let them go into bankruptcy, and then take over the
> assets to
> restructure. Now, this gets us into a huge additional
> problem, in that in
> the creation of phantom wealth-and, of course, many of
> these derivatives
> and so forth were ultimately sold off to pension funds or
> to university
> endowments or, you know, local municipality trust funds or
> whatever. You
> begin to look at that, and what you realize is that the
> total financial
> claims that were built up through that process far exceed
> any real wealth
> of the planet, which means that they are fictitious. You
> know, they can
> never be realized. We've been treating money as a
> storehouse of value.
> What it really is, it can be a storehouse of expectations.
> 
>       But those of us who have-we may have comfortable
> retirement
> accounts. It's not clear how we're going to be able
> to redeem that,
> because there's not enough wealth in the society, real
> wealth of real
> people doing real things, to maintain us at the level of
> our expectations.
> So all of this needs to be reworked out in this process of
> restructuring
> the financial system, and it's not going to be easy or
> comfortable.
> 
>       JUAN GONZALEZ: Because when you talk about letting
> some of these big
> institutions go bankrupt, as you say, you're talking
> about pension funds
> of labor unions, government investments as well,
> universities.
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: Yes.
> 
>       JUAN GONZALEZ: Everybody got involved in getting into
> the markets,
> and now everyone, to one degree or another, will pay from
> the unraveling of
> these markets.
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: Yeah. And part of the really insidious
> nature of it is
> the way the money managers are running the system.
> They're creating all
> of these fictitious transactions as a justification for
> collecting fees
> from the system, such as you know, that some of the highest
> compensated
> hedge fund managers were taking home more than a billion
> dollars a year in
> compensation. Now, that's where we need to do some
> serious taxation to
> recover that money. I mean, that's pure theft. What
> they were really
> doing was raiding the equity of these funds, which was
> supposed to be the
> cushion against risk. And so, again, I mean, this is a form
> of fraud that
> cannot be allowed to endure.
> 
>       AMY GOODMAN: David Korten, what does the end of
> empire mean?
> 
>       DAVID KORTEN: The end of empire, this puts it all in
> a historical
> context, and it very much relates to democracy. 5,000 years
> ago, as a
> species, we moved away from more community-oriented forms
> of organization,
> and we began to organize ourselves by dominator hierarchy.
> I refer to that
> period of move-the move to empire. And it was not just
> about one nation
> dominating another, but it was about a dominator hierarchy
> at all levels of
> society, from the relationships among nations to
> relationships within
> families, relationships between gender, between races and
> so forth.
> 
>       Now, we have gone through some democratizing
> processes, but the fact
> is, we are still in that era of empire, of organization of
> society by
> dominator hierarchy. And whereas the rulers used to be
> kings and emperors,
> they are now corporate CEOs and hedge fund managers. And
> the system has
> morphed into where the real rule in society-put aside all
> our elections,
> democracy and so forth, the real rule has been by Wall
> Street institutions
> through the system of money, as money is a system of power.
> 
> AMY GOODMAN: David Korten, author of Agenda for a New
> Economy: From Phantom
> Wealth to Real Wealth: Why Wall Street Can't Be Fixed
> and How to
> [Replace] It.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Discussion mailing list
> Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
>
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vement.net


      



From maryrose333 at att.net  Tue Jan 27 16:55:42 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:55:42 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] The Anti-Stimulus Crowd Blows a
	Gasket
Message-ID: <001301c980da$c6ae7e40$540b7ac0$@net>

This is why we obviously need a new system of governance that is not
politically based!!!!!!
No one wins when two parties are fighting one against the other. All one has
to do is look 
at Palestine and Israel as an example.  

Let's please GROW UP as a social consciousness and begin to think in terms
of: 

 IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF ALL CONCERNED. 

I am holding the field in this event so that the full potential of it may
emerge now.

mary rose     

-----Original Message-----
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TradingPostPaul
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 2:58 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] The Anti-Stimulus Crowd Blows a Gasket


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Published on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 by CommonDreams.org
The Anti-Stimulus Crowd Blows a Gasket
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/27-2
by Dean Baker

The anti-stimulus crowd is getting desperate. The possibility that a young
charismatic new president will push through an ambitious package that
begins to set the economy right is truly terrifying to this crew. After
all, if the economy begins to turn around and has largely recovered in
three or four years, the Republican leadership can look forward to spending
most of their careers in the political wilderness.

President Obama will cakewalk to re-election, and even his designated
successor will be able to benefit from the glow of his success. If the New
Deal serves as precedent, Congress will stay in Democratic hands long past
the time that the current leaders of the Republican Party start collecting
their pensions.

This explains the need that many Republicans feel to block the stimulus
package. This desperation led them to fabricate a report from the
Congressional Budget Office (CBO), which purportedly showed that most of
the stimulus would not be spent in 2009, or even in 2010. Based on this
report, they argued that President Obama's stimulus would do little to
boost the economy out of recession. The Republicans managed to get a story
to this effect in The Washington Post, in addition to extensive coverage in
other major news outlets.

The only problem is that there was no CBO report. The CBO had done some
very preliminary analysis of a package that was loosely modeled on a
portion of President Obama's program. This preliminary analysis was done at
the request of members of Congress to give them what was available at the
time. It was not a full analysis that had gone through the CBO's normal
review process, and was not posted on its web site where it could be
assessed by budget analysts and the general public.

In short, this analysis was clearly not ready for prime time. But, when
you're as desperate as the Republican leadership, you take what you can
get. Unfortunately, many in the media got taken by this ploy and now have
egg on their face as well.

The CBO will produce an analysis this week that examines the most recent
version of the full stimulus bill. This analysis will provide a much more
serious basis for assessing the proposals than the CBO "report" invented by
the Republican leadership. It will provide a full analysis of the proposal,
including an explanation of the methodology that the CBO used in its
calculations.

In this respect, it is important to caution against one possible limitation
of the CBO methodology. The CBO typically relies on rules of thumb in
calculating spendout rates for types of projects.

For example, as a rule of thumb, the spending for highways in the first
year after an appropriation may be just a small percentage of the total
cost of the highway, with spending in the second year being a little bit
higher. It takes time to plan a highway and to bid out contracts. Based on
analysis of the time between the passage of appropriations and the actual
spending, the CBO can project the time period over which a wide range of
appropriations will actually be spent.

However, these rules of thumbs are likely to understate the spendout rate
for the projects chosen as part of the stimulus package. These projects are
being selected specifically because they are ready to go, with plans
already in hand and contracts ready to be submitted for bids.

Furthermore, because of the severity of the economic downturn, contractors
are likely to be able to move much more quickly than would usually be the
case. Typically, contractors will have to find time to fit a government
project in their queue of other work. With the sharp downturn in the
construction sector, there are likely to be plenty of contractors who are
ready to move almost immediately after a contract is signed.

Finally, the bill threatens state and local governments with the loss of
funding if they do not move quickly to spend any money appropriated. For
these reasons, the CBO's rules of thumb on spendout rates may substantially
understate the amount of spending that will be carried through in the next
two years.

The Republicans have raised a serious issue in questioning the rate at
which the stimulus will be spent. The plan should be scrutinized to
determine if there are not ways to get money into the economy more quickly.
But this effort requires looking at evidence and data, not invented CBO
reports.

 

Dean Baker is the co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy
Research (CEPR). He is the author of The Conservative Nanny State: How the
Wealthy Use the Government to Stay Rich and Get Richer (
www.conservativenannystate.org) and the more recently published Plunder and
Blunder: The Rise and Fall of The Bubble Economy. He also has a blog, "Beat
the Press," where he discusses the media's coverage of economic issues. You
can find it at the American Prospect's web site. 



From maryrose333 at att.net  Tue Jan 27 17:28:52 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 16:28:52 -0800
Subject: [GJM] From Mother Jones - The People vs Dick Cheney
In-Reply-To: <002e01c9805c$803f52f0$0301a8c0@your447023ae6b>
References: <000001c98013$db28fc00$917af400$@net>	<700B89C4-7DF7-46AC-8500-5417CCAB4123@mac.com>
	<002e01c9805c$803f52f0$0301a8c0@your447023ae6b>
Message-ID: <001701c980df$6639dbe0$32ad93a0$@net>

Hi Rodney, your comments are much appreciated.  And, as you note, the Mother
Jones message was not labeled as spam here on this list, but it was noted as
SPAM on the FixGov list to which it was also sent.  This is the first time
in many messages over the past couple months that a message  has not been
labeled as SPAM when received by GJM. Where I was originally placing the
blame was on my service provider which is  AT&T.  And, we all know the
spying record of this company as ordered by Bush.  I am unable to avoid
doing business with this company as it is the only provider in the area for
both phone service and DSL.  

 

But since it was not received as SPAM here this time, but still considered
SPAM on FixGov, this seems to invalidate the idea of it being done by that
source.  And, although I have not been able to determine the cause for sure
of the fatal crash of my almost new laptop, as I do not yet have the funds
to take it into the repair shop, having had to struggle over several months
in order to obtain a replacement, I intuitively feel that it was a virus of
some kind.  Although it was protected by Norton, it was not a normal crash.
The moderator for the FixGov list is a close and long time friend of mine
and assures me that it is not being done at that end.     

 

Like you, I too receive messages labeled as SPAM, that I can see no reason
for labeling as such.  But it is of concern to me that this is happening.  

 

With warm regards,

 

mary rose  

 

From: discussion-bounces at globaljusticemovement.net
[mailto:discussion-bounces at globaljusticemovement.net] On Behalf Of Rodney
Shakespeare
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 12:52 AM
To: Discussion Forum for Global Justice
Subject: Re: [GJM] From Mother Jones - The People vs Dick Cheney

 

Mary (Rose),

1.    You say all your messages are labeled as SPAM.

 

Some obvious personal  messages to me come into my Spam Box (I have a notice
stuck on my computer screen to remind me to check the  Spam Box); some
obvious spam comes into my normal  In Box; and some obvious personal emails
to me get labeled as SPAM.

 

Moreover, your 'Mother Jones' email to FixGov and GJM does not appear to
have been labeled as SPAM.

 

I think all this is probably due to the filtering programs..

 

2.     As Steven Nieman says, there are a lot of positive things going on,
too.

 

3.    As regards the present system being to blame, it is necessary to say
why the financial/economic system is to blame  and then provide a practical
and desirable way to change it.

 

I mention this because  in the last four weeks I have done or participated
in  nine TV or radio broadcasts of one sort or another and five were twenty
five minutes or more (of which one was a televised broadcast of a one hour
lecture) and am putting across the following message:-

 

a) The banking system is to blame for the global economic crisis which will
soon become a slump.  Present 'remedies' are creating more of the thing
which caused the problem in the first place.

 

The banking system is responsible because it creates money out of nothing;
adds interest, as well as administrative cost, and does not direct the money
to the development and spreading of productive (and the associated
consuming) capacity ) so as to achieve a balance of supply and demand with
producers and consumers being the same people.  The result is huge,
unrepayable debt and an economic system which is profoundly out of kilter
with little relation to the needs of a real economy as well as social and
economic justice

 

b) The solution is to stop the banking system creating money -- let it lend
its own capital and, with permission, the deposits of customers.  This is
done by a gradual rise to 100% bank reserves.

 

At the same time, open up a new, interest-free loan supply from the central
bank (administered by the banking system which may charge administration
cost) for the purpose of developing and spreading productive capacity and
forwarding social and economic justice.  See the diagram at
www.binaryeconomics.net

 

 

Rodney Shakespeare.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Steve Nieman <mailto:stevenieman at mac.com>  

To: Discussion Forum for Global
<mailto:discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>  Justice 

Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:06 AM

Subject: Re: [GJM] From Mother Jones - The People vs Dick Cheney

 

The system is mostly to blame, Mary.  And many people's tortured, divided,
and undisciplined minds... 

 

I am not at all threatened with what your write and forward as unofficial
Internet editor.  Keep up your passion.  You're making a difference,
including with me.

 

My main emphasis I ask you to consider, and which I daily strive for:
balance.  There's a lot of evil in the human world.  But there are a lot of
positive things going on, too.  And the sound of silence is a necessary
requisite to allow the mind to see clearly and not be confused by many
people's unintelligible chattering.

 

Regards,

Steve Nieman

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Jan 26, 2009, at 4:11 PM, mary rose wrote:





In closing, another thought that occurs though is whether or not the present
system Is at

least partly, or perhaps mostly to blame, for what can you expect when
political parties vie

against one another for control in order to serve their own interests in an
international arena.  

Perhaps we should be considering growing up and moving into another level of
consciousness

while searching for a system that is more equitable and serves the best
interests of ALL concerned.         

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2009/01/the-people-vs-dick-cheney.ht
ml

I find it most interesting that all of my messages are labeled as SPAM.
There must be a contingency

out there that feels threatened by what I write.

mary rose   

 

  _____  

_______________________________________________
Discussion mailing list
Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
http://globaljusticemovement.net/mailman/listinfo/discussion_globaljusticemo
vement.net

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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 28 03:27:31 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:27:31 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Monetary Reform moves forward
In-Reply-To: <49800256.6090202@taconic.net>
Message-ID: <993597.12747.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Wed, 28/1/09, AMI <ami at taconic.net> wrote:

From: AMI <ami at taconic.net>
Subject: Monetary Reform moves forward
To: "AMI" <ami at taconic.net>
Date: Wednesday, 28 January, 2009, 6:59 AM


Dear Friends of the American MONETARY Institute,

Monetary reform is advancing rapidly, because it must, in order to resolve our national crisis.
There are two links below that are MUST viewing, and please forward them to your email lists.

On this link http://cspanjunkie.org/?p=1724 Congressman Dennis Kucinich describes the economic and monetary crisis for one hour on the floor of the House of Representatives. You can see what a devoted and great leader he is. View it all. At about 40 minutes in, he discusses Stephen Zarlenga and our monetary reform proposal - a must see!

Here,? http://votersthink.org/?p=1073? Dennis in just over one minute describes the reform program in summary.

Please enjoy the second link immediately, and set aside an hour to view the first link.

The internet is allowing a marvelous communication process to take place in our land, in this time of crisis. Please use it fully, forwarding this to your friends and let me know their reactions.

The full text of the American Monetary Act can be viewed at
?http://www.monetary.org/amacolorpamphlet.pdf

Warm regards and thanks for your attention,

Stephen Zarlenga
Director,
American Monetary Institute




      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 28 03:40:10 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:40:10 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Re: The Money System is a Confidence Trick
In-Reply-To: <003801c980da$2cac8760$6a81c67c@HomePC>
Message-ID: <477278.10219.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

? Dear All,
?
??????????????? TFE is ahead of its time, and will one day I am sure become an everyday reality. More importantly, it will form the basis of global justice. 
?
R.Searle

--- On Tue, 27/1/09, William Hugh McGunnigle <wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz> wrote:

From: William Hugh McGunnigle <wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: The Money System is a Confidence Trick
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Tuesday, 27 January, 2009, 11:51 PM

Hi Ken
          Most scientific advances come about that way. Some inspirational
lateral thinker developes an idea and theory, and then those with practical
knowledge in the related fields turn it into a useable axiom. This is what I
feel about Social Credit. Unfortunately in this area we are up against those who
are unwilling to change their thinking modes. A similar position occurred during
the 19th century with the medical profession and Loius Pasteur whose ideas were
steadfastly rejected for no other reason than Pasteur had not had any training
in medicine such as it was at that time. It took 15 years for his genius to be
finally aknowledged by the medical profession. We have the same problemn with
"orthodox economists". Their minds are determined to reject any ideas
about finance that originate from outside the "economic elite". I
believe this is a mind set hammered into the entire profession. Eventually it
will break down because their own explanations of how finance works are becoming
more and more ridiculous. Like the Phlogiston Theory in Chemistry their idiotic
explanations will self destruct as better and more efficient explanations
emerge. This will take some time because the present economic theories are well
entrenched despite their poor explanations of economic trends.
      Bill MCGunnigle
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Palmerton"
<kenpalmerton at cix.compulink.co.uk>
To: <socialcredit at elistas.com>
Cc: <kenpalmerton at cix.compulink.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 2:00 AM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Re: The Money System is a Confidence Trick


> In-Reply-To: <BLU116-W16976616E8A9312E1DC481BDCD0 at phx.gbl>
> Hi John.
> 
> It has been a long standing tactic to try to tie people up to producing
> "References" to what they argue. Fine for academics who make
their living
> producing such debates, but to make social progress either an idea is
> supported, or it is rejected, no matter who did, or did not, say it at
> some earlier date.
> 
> One of the things that amused me in my contacts with the late Eric De
> Mare, a REAL Social Crediter by anybodies reconning :-) was his irritation
> at such referencing arguments. He would say that if so and so had NOT said
> something, they ought to have done :-)
> 
> Although I don't really class myself as a Social Creditor one of the
most
> attractive things I found about it during a fairly thorough study, is that
> the proposals are simple, they stand on the truths of justice and
fairness.
> 
> Amongst early proponents it was understood that non technicians would set
> out the aims, which I think are clear and easily understood, with the
> technicalities worked out in practice by those who are experts and
> specialists, within the defined specification.
> 
> That to me seems common sense:-)
> 
> Ken.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> 
> *From:* John G Rawson <johngrawson at hotmail.com>
> *To:* Socred elistas <socialcredit at elistas.com>
> *Date:* Sun, 25 Jan 2009 18:54:40 +0000
> 
> Thanks Ken, but:
> I gave an example where we can come up with opposite answers depending
> whether we are dealing with M0 or a higher definition.  That's
unimportant?
> I believe the greatest weakness in SC promotion has been talking on weakly
> unfounded generalities, no matter how sound they are if referenced
> properly. Plus, of course, startling quotations that are undoubtedly true
> but which nobody seems able to tie down to actual origins inside three
> months of checking.
> Blame "dumb" people, blame propaganda from those running the
racket, sure.
> But if we are sloppy and careless we also merit some of the blame.
> Yes, friends here. But the big world outside is far from friendly. And my
> purpopse in life is to promote the cause.
> Regards.
> John R.> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 15:48:00 +0000> From:
> kenpalmerton at cix.compulink.co.uk> To: socialcredit at elistas.com> CC:
> kenpalmerton at cix.compulink.co.uk> Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Re: The
> Money System is a Confidence Trick> > In-Reply-To:
> <BLU116-W279303C0F14D3BD273BC96BDCC0 at phx.gbl>> Hi John.> >
I think it
> would be a great shame if we as friends got hung up on arguing > about
> which monetary aggregates counted as "Money".> > Those of
good will I
> think will accept a few discrepancies. Will they not ?> > Ken.>
> -------- Original Message --------> > *From:* John G Rawson
> <johngrawson at hotmail.com>> *To:* Socred elistas
> <socialcredit at elistas.com>> *Date:* Sat, 24 Jan 2009 21:49:22
+0000> >
> Wrong, Bill. Notes and coins in bank tills are not part of the money >
> supply. (M1 = notes and coins IN CIRCULATION plus demand deposits at
> ....)> Further, cash like this can not go back into circulation without
> the > equivalent amount being deducted from some account at the
bank.>
> Work it out, if cash paid in (say $1,000) results in an increase of $1,000
>> in a customer's account, that is money by definition. If the cash
> retains > its money value also, the amount of money has magically
doubled
> at this > stage. Possibly a reasonable assumption, but the
"multiplier
> effect" of > banking is considered to occur during lending, not
> depositing.> Regards.> John R.> From: wmcgunn at maxnet.co.nz>
To:
> socialcredit at elistas.com> Date: > Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:14:38
+1300>
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: The Money > System is a Confidence
Trick>
>> Hi Per> Th answer is NO! what they have > lent out is a credit
balance
> of a > loan which they have paid in cash that > is part of the ready
> currency reserve > that all banks have on hand at any > time. The
money
> deposited at a bank is > registered as a book entry on a > bank
deposit
> account, and once this has > been done the deposited money no >
longer
> remains as an asset to the depositor > but becomes part of the cash
>
> reserves held at the bank for distribution to > any depositor who needs
>
> ready cash. Because banks are allowed to do this it > gives the
appearance
>> that the bank is lending out money that has been placed > in their
hands
>> for safekeeping, In reality there are two types of cash > avaiable
at a
>> bank. money held in reserve at the bank to pay out depositiors > in
cash
>> [this is usually a fixed percentage of the nominal deposits atg a >
> bank], > and money physically deposited at a bank by customers to be
held
> in > > safekeeping as a bank account deposit. It is this last action
that
> leads > to > confusion, because banks don't actually keep that
money
> locked away > in a > bank vault, but because it is a registered book
entry
> against a > particular > customer they use any banknotes/coins etc
> deposited with them > for reissuing > to other customers. It would
be too
> much trouble to > specifically hold each > customers cash in an
individual
> vault so all cash > is lumped together and > treated the same. i.e.
as a
> cash reserve for the > bank to issue to depositors > when/if they
need
> cash. no one loses out > because the bank can access extra > cash to
pay
> depositors if the number > of people needing cash exceeds their >
actual
> cash supply. The bank has > already recorded how much cash any customer
>
> has deposited with the bank. > The bank reserve system ensures that any
> bank > can accesss cash through > the central bank to pay out all
> depositors if need > be. Even bankrupt > banks can access this
because
> customer deposits are > protected by law and > have first call on
any
> assets possed by the bankrupt > bank.> Bill Mc > Gunnigle>
----- Original
> Message ----- > From: "Per Almgren" >
<almgren_per at telia.com>> To:
> <socialcredit at elistas.com>> Cc: >
<kenpalmerton at cix.compulink.co.uk>>
> Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 8:23 > AM> Subject: Re:
[socialcredit]
> Re: The Money System is a Confidence > Trick> > > > About
lending the
> depositors money:> >> > A very small bank > out in the
countryside
> receives cash deposits from the > > people living > close to the
office
> (open just 2 hours a week). The bank > > grants loans > to some
of the
> people in this area, and pays out the loan > > amounts in > cash
so that
> they dont have specially much cash left of the > > > depositions
once
> received. Have they lent out the depositors money? YES or > > >
NO?> > Per
> Almgren> >> > Kenneth Palmerton skrev:> >>
In-Reply-To: >
> <2F46F210AC47452EB8FA33504A2EEA35 at usere1429abd4f>> >> Sorry
Graeme,> >> >
> But from what you write here you do not seem to have grasped reality.>
>>>
>> >> Banks do NOT lend their depositors money. What our trading
banks lend
>> is > >> money they have themselves created, out of nothing,
and at tiny
>> cost.> >>> >> I know that this sort of statement is
offensive to
> ordinary > honest > >> upright people, as it should be, but it
IS the
> truth of the > matter.> >>> >> Only secondary, or
merchant banks lend what
> they have > borrowed from > >> higher up the banking feeding
chain. Taking
> their > profit from the > >> difference in the interest rates
charged.>
>>>> >> > Ken.> >>> >> -------- Original
Message --------> >>> >> *From:*
> "Graeme > Taylor" <telergy at bigpond.com>> >>
*To:*
> <socialcredit at elistas.com>> >> > *Date:* Thu, 22 Jan
2009 18:13:32 +1100>
>>>> >> I, for one, recognised > that although secretive
(ssshhh, you'll
> scare the > >> horses), the > fractional reserve money scam is
just a
> vehicle to lend > >> customers > money. Banks should be good
at it now,
> after a millenia or two, > >> but > Greenspan had more blind
faith in the
> invisible friend in the sky > >> > called the market, than is
sound
> banking practice.> >> It all started to > appear less corrupt,
when I
> realised that the $100m > >> that they create > as a loan,
self liquidates
> as the principal is paid > >> down.> >> Banks > just
make manifest some
> money numbers, which disappear as you pay > >> > back the
loan, while they
> profit from the add ons.> >> No-one has to > borrow money, and
if they do,
> can borrow from whoever.> >> The problem is > that our
economies are
> riddled with debt and banks have > >> more capacity > to make
loans than
> relatives or friends.> >>> >> Got a lazy grand
anyone?> > >> cheers> >>
> Graeme Taylor> >>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >
>> > Sent: Thursday,
> January 22, 2009 4:21 PM> >> Subject: [socialcredit] Re: > The
Money
> System is a Confidence Trick> >>> >>> >>>
>>> Mr. Nevin, some > questions
> about your post:> >>>> >>> "The Federal
Reserve then creates new > money
> that did not exist before> >> and> >>> uses this
money to purchase > the
> bonds."> >>>
-----------------------------------------> >>> >
> ------------------------------------------> >>>>
>>> Did you not know that
>> most of the bonds are NOT purchased by the Federal > >>>
Reserve? The
> Fed > does purchase some of them, but not nearly so many as >
>>> before.
> Today, > the so-called "open market" operations mostly
consist of > >>>
> the Fed > buying and selling "repos" which are securities
created by the >
>>>> banks > themselves.> >>> -> >>>>
>>> Then the populace, through
> taxation, is > forced to pay the interest on > >>> these
bonds.> >>> >
> -----------------------------------------> >>> >
> ------------------------------------------> >>>>
>>> Did you not know that
>> the Federal Reserve rebates its profit to the> >> United>
>>> States >
> Government?> >>> -> >>>> >>>
"Second, banks devised a subtle way to >
> counterfeit money."> >>>
-----------------------------------------> >>> >
> ------------------------------------------> >>>>
>>> You are a lawyer. >
> Certainly you are not using the word "counterfeit" in >
>>> the sense that
>> the word is defined in law dictionaries. Counterfeiting> >>
is> >>> the
>> FORGING of documents in the name of someone else. Banks loan and >
>>> >
> spend their own promises to pay in the form of their deposit> >>
>
> liabilities.> >>> In no sense can that be construed as
counterfeiting.> >
>>>> -> >>>> >>> Article I, Section 8, Part
5 of the Constitution of the >
> United States > >>> gives Congress the power, "To coin
money, regulate the
>> value thereof,> >> and> >>> of foreign
coin."> >>> >
> -----------------------------------------> >>> >
> ------------------------------------------> >>>>
>>> Please note that it >
> does not give Congress the *exclusive* right. Nor > >>> does
it prohibit >
> the tendering of your promissory note. Bank deposits > >>>
which they >
> spend and loan into existence are effectively their> >>
promissory> >>> >
> notes, in the form of their deposit liabilities. We call these >
>>> >
> liabilities *money* because most transactions are accomplished through>
>>
>> the> >>> transfer of these liabilities.> >>>
-> >>>> >>> It is illegal
> for > banks to create money, and it is illegal for Congress>
>> to> >>>
> allow > banks to create money. The only way banks could legally
create> >>
> money> > >>> would be if an amendment to the Constitution
authorizing
> money > creation> >> by> >>> banks were passed.
There is no such
> amendment.> >>> >
-----------------------------------------> >>> >
> ------------------------------------------> >>>>
>>> A rather crank >
> argument for a lawyer to make.> >>> -> >>>>
>>> He is the former CEO of >
> Goldman Sachs, and he conducts government policy > >>> in
accord with the
>> interests of banks and not of the American people.> >>>
>
> -----------------------------------------> >>> >
> ------------------------------------------> >>>>
>>> Certainly Paulson >
> looks at the matter from a banker's perspective, but > >>>
this is a >
> rather reckless charge to make.> >>> -> >>>>
>>> Any person of average >
> intelligence can understand how the money system > >>>
works.> >>> >
> -----------------------------------------> >>> >
> ------------------------------------------> >>>>
>>> I think that may be >
> true, but I don't mean to demean your intelligence > >>>
when I say that >
> you do not appear to understand it.> >>> ->
>>>> >>> Peter Hogwood> >>>> >
>>>>> >>>> >>> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------->
>>>
>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
at>
>> >>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium>
>>> You're subscribed
> to > this list with the email telergy at bigpond.com> >>> For
more
> information, > visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >> >
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >> -----> >>> >>> >>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.> >>
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com> >> Version: 8.0.176 /
Virus
> Database: > 270.10.12/1908 - Release Date: > >> 1/21/2009 9:15
PM> >>> >>
>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------->
>>> > Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this
list are
> at> > >> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium>
>> You're
> subscribed to > this list with the email > >>
> kenpalmerton at cix.compulink.co.uk> >> For > more information,
visit
> http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >> > >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------->
> >
> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
at> >
>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium> > You're
subscribed to
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 28 03:41:04 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:41:04 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Fw: Your support of the Desmond Tutu event changes everything
Message-ID: <995563.28023.qm@web27404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Wed, 28/1/09, Humanity's Team Worldwide <info at humanitysteam.org> wrote:

From: Humanity's Team Worldwide <info at humanitysteam.org>
Subject: Your support of the Desmond Tutu event changes everything
To: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk
Date: Wednesday, 28 January, 2009, 7:22 AM









Dear Robert, 
You can see and hear in just a few words what Humanity's Team means 
to members of our coordinating Global Council and why it's so important 
to support a watershed moment in our movement's progress -- honoring 
South African Desmond Tutu with the Humanity's Team Spiritual Leadership 
Award at our groundbreaking 2009 Oneness Summit in Pretoria, South 
Africa.? 
Thank you to all those who have already given and to those who will give.? 
Every Teammate will be proud to say, "I helped make this event possible."
Click here to see a short video with the Global Council's own words.


Blessings,


Steve Farrell
Worldwide Coordinating Director
Humanity's Team

P.S.? Humanity's Team is looking for additional translators, so that we can offer all of our 
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 28 03:44:16 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:44:16 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Practical implementation of Consumer
	Prices Compensation
In-Reply-To: <BLU116-W874992C4018DB7BD4FD85BDC80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <496392.94292.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Wed, 28/1/09, John G Rawson <johngrawson at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: John G Rawson <johngrawson at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Practical implementation of Consumer Prices Compensation
To: "Socred elistas" <socialcredit at elistas.com>
Date: Wednesday, 28 January, 2009, 12:06 AM




#yiv1372439600 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv1372439600 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

OK Joe.? And, on the side, nice to see Social Crediters using the accepted term "subsidy" without the shock/horror of pretending they always have to be paid out of taxation to merit the term.
However, you got only part of the story.? Those were times of strict price controls of the items subsidised, and also very comprehensive import controls. Butter here, for example, was sold at two shillings (20c) per pound, everywhere in the country.? Part of the deal was that the Dairy Board was financed at 1% by Reserve Bank Credit.
Australia maintained strong import controls a bit longer than we did, right into the mid or late fifties. They did not apply only to luxuries; chainsaws were one item for them then, and their contractors could only get inferior machines, not good?North American or European?ones. (I'm not sure what they had, but I do know this as factual.
I am also interersted if or where we need to draw a line.? In NZ only white bread was subsidised, healthier wholemeal was not! Where do we decide (if we do) between:
Bread and hard drugs?? Pure fruit juice and CocaCola?
A home made product or a cheap one from somewhere that labour is sweated?
Regards.

John R.





From: thomsonhiyu at shaw.ca
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:57:44 -0800
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Practical implementation of Consumer Prices Compensation





This is a very interesting piece, Wally.? I think it shows very clearly that a Compensated Price Discount is not only workable, but has worked well in the past even when financed through taxation since, as was said,? "The essential truth is that the price subsidisation program was financed out of [a] portion of the new credits created to finance the war."
?
Readers should be aware that the final section, which has nothing to do with a Consumer's Discount, namely the part under the title "COUNTERFEIT MONEY" has, if I recall correctly, been discussed on here before.? There was a little more to that story than what's told here.
?
Regards,
Joe

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Wallace Klinck 
To: socialcredit at elistas.com 
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 5:59 PM
Subject: [socialcredit] Practical implementation of Consumer Prices Compensation


The following is submitted with regard to recent debate within this group regarding Douglas's "Compensated Price." ?Victor Bridger has had wide business experience and was much involved in the program for subsidization of prices which was implemented during World War Two to keep down food prices in Australia at that time. ?He advises that the program worked very effectively and that he encountered no difficulties with its administration at that time.
Sincerely
Wally




Organ of the 
INSTITUTEOF ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY 

P.O. Box 33, Paddington, Queensland, 4064 
No. I MARCH. 1970 

THE FORGOTTEN STORY OF CONSUMER SUBSIDIES 

The Hon. D. Anthony, Minister for Primary Industries, has stated that he finds the book, They Want Your Land, appeal to emotion rather than reason" and that the policy of consumer subsidies has long ago been rejected by the Government as being economically and politically impractical in the context of our National Policy aims, as well as being a very costly and inefficient means of attempting to help rural producers." 


Mr. Anthony's statement that consumer subsidies are "politically impractical" is astonishing in view of the fact that in 1949 the Liberal-Country Party coalition Government came to office on a policy of "putting the shillings back into the pound" by restoring the price subsidy system dismantled by the Labor Government. The concept of a comprehensive price-subsidisation (or cost compensation) program is neither new nor revolutionary. A new type of financial policy was made necessary by the Second World War, when the myths of the ?thirties about "a shortage of finance" were shattered. The well-known Government adviser during the war years, Professor L. G. Giblin, states in his authoritative work, The Growth of a Central Bank, that "The (Commonwealth Bank) in 1942 recognised that a great expansion of central bank credit was necessary to finance the war ...." This expansion of central bank credit enabled the Trading Banks to create and expand more credit
 also. Men, material and ?know-how? were the only limiting factors on the war effort, not "a shortage of finance".

In the nature of the present finance-economic system, a great expansion of new financial credits, much of it being devoted to capital production (war industries) has the effect of increasing the price level. An increased price level erodes the value of wages and salaries, this resulting in an increase in wages and salaries to offset this erosion. But increased wages and salaries, financed out of further expansions of credit by the banking system, must be costed into prices by employers, thus stimulating further what is often called the "price spiral". The threat of inflation to industrial stability during the Second World War was met by the introduction of selective price-subsidies on items used to compute the Basic Wage. Prices were reduced to the consumer without penalizing the producer. 

It is true that the subsidisation was directly financed out of taxation. But the Government was only able to levy such heavy taxation because the great expansion of new financial credits had dramatically increased the supply of money in the pockets of the Australian people. 

The essential truth is that the price subsidisation program was financed out of [a] portion of the new credits created to finance the war. Government price control and rationing were only necessary to prevent exploiters taking advantage of the shortage of goods brought about by war production. These controls would have been completely unnecessary with adequate consumer production, such 
as is the case at present. Price subsidization demonstrated that even with an enormous expansion of new credit for an expanding economy, price stability is possible. The big increases in price rises started with the dismantling of the price subsidization program after 1948. They have continued ever since. 

Opposition leaders, including the then Mr. R. G. Menzies and the then Mr. Arthur Fadden, stressed that price increases were the result of dismantling the price subsidy program. By early 1949, these Opposition leaders were bluntly stating that if elected to office, they would immediately restore the price subsidy program, The Argus, Melbourne, on January 28, 1949, reported: 


?Restoration of subsidies would be advocated by the Federal Country Party as part of its platform for the Federal Elections, Mr. Fadden, leader of the party, said yesterday. ?Our policy of stabilized prices is designed to increase the real purchasing power of wages, health and nutritional standards by increasing consumption,? he said. ?The Country Party's proposal is to restore subsidies to 
commodities which are rising in price and are contributing to the already exorbitant living costs.?? 

The Liberal Party had agreed completely with the Country Party on price subsidisation. In a supplementary Policy statement, Mr. Menzies said before the 1949 elections: ?When, at the referendum of 1948,the people refused to give permanent price-fixing powers to the Commonwealth, the present government did two unpardonable things. First it threw price control to the States, hoping they would make a mess of it. Second, it withdrew most subsidies which had been created to keep down the cost of living. While encouraging production to the full, we shall hold ourselves ready to pay price subsidies in appropriate cases, as for example on those items affecting the basic wage earner?s cost of living.? (The Age, Melbourne, November 12, 1949. 

Liberal and Country Party speakers attacked Socialist planners like Dr. Coombs, and campaigned strongly on their policy of "putting the shillings back into the pound" through restored price subsidies, reduced taxation and less bureaucracy. The electors voted for the policy. 

The Sun, Melbourne, January 26, 1950, reported: "As a first step to bringing value back into the pound, the Federal Government is likely soon to subsidise some commodities in the cost-of-living index. Cabinet plans to begin its anti-inflation drive, in fulfillment of election pledges, on February 7. Appointment of a Ministerial economic policy committee was announced today by the Prime Minister (Mr. Menzies). The committee, he said, would start work next week with a team of experts so that the Government could formulate a policy on prices subsidies at once." But the "experts", the very planners previously criticised, clearly "bluffed" the new government. On February 10 the Government announced the appointment of Dr. H. C. Coombs as Chairman of the newly-created Commonwealth Bank Board. It was obvious that the Menzies-Fadden banking policies were a continuation of the Chifley Government's. There was an upsurge of criticism in many Liberal Party branches,
 but it proved ineffective. 

By April 5, 1950, Prime Minister Menzies had formally capitulated to the "advisers" and planners. The Sun, Melbourne, of that date, reported as follows: "Mr. Menzies said (to the Launceston Chamber of Commerce) that putting value back into the pound was not the Government's responsibility. It was the peoples'." From then on there was no more talk of price subsidies. There 
was a steady retreat from the brave words and promises of the pre-1949 Federal Elections.? 

This forgotten story of consumer subsidies proves that the election of politicians pledged to a clear-cut policy, does not necessarily mean that that policy will be implemented if it meets with the disapproval of the entrenched 
bureaucracy. Early in 1950 it was demonstrated that the Liberal-Country Party coalition was unable to implement a policy strongly supported by the electors. In face of the facts, it is obvious that merely electing different politicians will, of itself have no real bearing on the question of how power is to be decentralised into the hands of the people. The battle to wrest power from those now exercising it, must be fought through the people's political and other institutions. This means the applications of effective pressure on the 
electors' paid servants at Canberra, making it clear that they must either take up again the battle promised in 1949, or be removed in favor of men with the courage to do this. Mr. Anthony's claim that consumer subsidies are "impractical" is a repudiation of what was once a major Country Party policy. 


LIBERAL MP ATTACKS POLICY OF RURAL SUBSIDIES" 

The above was the heading in The Australian (February 19) report of an address by South Australian Federal Liberal MP Mr. Kelly to the annual conference of the 
Australian Economic Society in Melbourne. Mr. Kelly put the view so prevalent at present, that a Federal Government "should be influenced more by its national 
Economic responsibilities and less by short-term political considerations." He said that the Federal Government "should lead, not follow." Mr. Kelly's philosophy is akin to that of National Socialism. In a genuine democracy,
policy making is freely decided by the individual, both in the political and the economic field. The responsibility of Mr. Kelly and his fellow over-paid Members, is to represent the policies of the electors.

Mr. Kelly quite naturally emerges as an exponent of the get-bigger-or-get-out philosophy: ". . . those of us in the wool industry know that one of the few means available to us to reduce costs is to produce more wool?in other words, to become larger woolgrowers." Mr. Kelly must be aware that large numbers of Australian woolgrowers have become much more efficient, and are producing more wool. But while their greater effciency, and their intensified production, has substantially increased the total amount of wool for sale, financial costs, all 
stemming from the inflationary financial policies which the Federal Government endorses, continue to outstrip the results of greater efficiency. The sane purpose of production is consumption, to serve the real needs of the 
consumer, not to go on increasing production simply in an endeavour to keep up with rising financial costs. The bigger primary producer who thinks he can survive by the elimination of the smaller producers, is merely helping 
to prepare for his own eventual elimination as an independent man. If Mr. Kelly has been reported correctly, he is opposed to the principle of rural subsidies because these will prevent the policy of bigger production units which he supports. By inference he admits that subsidisation could halt centralisation. 

Mr. Kelly states that "To insulate an industry from the costs around it is the kiss of death to that industry."? The costs to which Mr. Kelly refers are financial costs stemming from the present inflationary financial policies???????????????????? of the Federal Government. They manifest themselves in numerous ways, in the increased financial prices the producer has to pay for what he buys, the higher wages he must pay, the increased rates which Municipal Governments are forced to impose because they are under the inflationary pressures. As the primary producer is not responsible for these rising financial costs, and has in most 
cases reduced his real costs of production through greater efficiency, it is elementary that any policy which "insulates" him against inflation must be of benefit to him as producer and a member of the community. If the policy of "insulation" includes consumer subsidies, paid only on what consumers buy, then both producer and consumer benefit.

Mr. Kelly expresses concern that if some type of cost compensation scheme is applied to the wool industry "we will be up for big money." He points out that only 5 cents a pound subsidy would be $100 million. Mr. Kelly must surely be out of touch with reality. If even this amount were financed out of new financial credits, or in the form of some type of Government debentures which could be used to meet certain specific liabilities such as rates and taxes, it is obvious that Australian woolgrowers would have an extra $100 million to spend on the type of production they desire. This would be a genuine increase in purchasing power. All would benefit. Unless this, or some similar policy is applied, then what Mr. Kelly terms "big money" will be but "chicken-feed" compared to what will be required to finance more inflation and centralisation. 

Mr. Kelly makes the point that "two elections every three years and the pressure for popularity tends to prevent the Government giving an industry the medicine which is necessary for its well-being." The correct function of government in a democratic society is to provide a Rule of Law, particularly in the field of finance, which enables individuals to get the benefits from their various forms of association. Talk about Governments administering medicine rather smacks of the caster-oil treatment used by the Fascist regime under Mussolini. It might be suggested that Mr. Kelly and some of his colleagues might be given a little appropriate medicine to encourage them to halt their present Socialist inflation and taxation policies. Perhaps it would help if every time the price level went up three per cent., the salaries of Mr. Kelly and his Government colleagues could come down three per cent. 


COUNTERFEIT MONEY


On December 7, 1968, in the township of Credit River, in the County of Scott, Minnesota, U.S.A. history was made. 

Jerome Daly, a lawyer, was brought to Court because a mortgage held by the First National Bank of Montgomery, on a house bought by him was in default, so 
the Bank foreclosed. Mr. Daly (the Defendant), in answer to the charge, said that the Bank (the Plaintiff) created money and credit upon its own books by bookkeeping entry as the consideration for the Note and Mortgage of May 8, 1964, and he therefore alleged that the Sheriff's sale of the house passed no title to the Plaintiff. The Plaintiff, Lawrence V. Morgan, President of the Bank, admitted that all the money or credit which was used as a consideration was created upon their books, that this was standard banking practice exercised by their Bank in combination with the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis, another private Bank; further that he knew of no United States Statute or Law that gave the Bank the authority to do this. 

At 12:15 on December 8, 1968, the jury returned a unanimous verdict for the Defendant, Daly. 

The Justice of the Peace, Martin Mahoney, who tried the case, added a memorandum to the findings of the Court, in which he said: "The issues in this case were 
simple. There was no material dispute on the facts for the Jury to resolve. Plaintiff admitted that it, in combination with the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis . . . did create the entire $14,000 in money or credit upon its own books, by book-keeping entry. Mr. Morgan admitted that no United States Law or Statute Existed which gave him the right to do this. A lawful consideration must exist and be tendered to support the Note. The Jury found there was no lawful consideration and I agree . . ." 


DISTRIBUTETHESE 
PAMPHLETS NOW!

The Institute of Economic Democracy has published two important pamphlets for wide distribution by farmers to their fellow farmers, those holding executive positions in farmers organizations and members of parliament. The more the M.P.'s find their mail boxes filled with the pamphlets and endorsing their sentiments the more likely are they to take action. The pamphlets emphasise the 
need for politicians to challenge the grip now held by financial advisers in the Treasury and Universities on Government policies. Only an irate and aroused electorate will get the necessary results. 


The first pamphlet is entitled Answers Farmers Must Ask, and is subtitled, and have answered if they are to survive as Independent Owners, financially secure. In question and answer form it outlines the broad history of factors of the government's inflationary policy which has slowly destroyed the gains made by the farmer. Facts and figures of production, inflation and indebtedness are 
included, with strong reasons why the politicians must reverse present policies. 

The second pamphlet is entitled Federal Government's Financial Policies RAISE COSTS?INCREASE PRICES?RUIN FARMERS! TIME FOR ACTION NOW! The demands made in the pamphlet are for Lower Costs?Lower Debt and for Purchasing Power Not Subject to Inflation. It sets out two alternative policies, immediate Short Term Relief and A Long Term Policy which Will Never Let the Situation Occur Again. The pamphlet takes up various suggestions for price subsidies made by different spokesmen for farmers over recent weeks. Two simple illustrations of the application of consumer subsidies are set out, and an answer to the inevitable question "where is the money to come from?" is given. 


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From maryrose333 at att.net  Wed Jan 28 07:16:48 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 06:16:48 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: Blackout
Message-ID: <000301c98153$124329f0$36c97dd0$@net>

 

 

From: The Orion Project [mailto:info at theorionproject.org] 
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Subject: Blackout

 

 
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From maryrose333 at att.net  Wed Jan 28 07:21:20 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 06:21:20 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] The Real Truth behind the
	Citigroup Bank Nationalization
Message-ID: <000801c98153$b48985b0$1d9c9110$@net>



-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:04 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] The Real Truth behind the Citigroup Bank
Nationalization


(To change your settings or unsubscribe please go to
http://lists.riseup.net/www/info/globalnetnews-summary)

"The 2009 year will be one of titanic shocks and changes to the global
order of a scale perhaps not experienced in the past five centuries. This
is why we speak of the end of the American Century and its Dollar System. "


The Real Truth behind the Citigroup Bank Nationalization
By F. William Engdahl, 24 November 2008
http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Financial_Tsunami/Citigroup_Abyss/citi
group_abyss.html
 

On Friday November 21 the world came within a hair's breadth of the most
colossal financial collapse in world history according to bankers on the
inside of events with whom we have contact. The trigger was the bank which
only two years ago was America's largest, Citigroup. The size of the US
Government de facto nationalization of the $2 trillion banking institution
is an indication of shocks yet to come in other major US and perhaps
European banks thought to be 'too big to fail.'

The clumsy way in which US Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, himself not a
banker but a Wall Street 'investment banker', whose experience has been
in the quite different world of buying and selling stocks or bonds or
underwriting and selling same, has handled the unfolding crisis has been
worse than incompetent. It has made a grave situation into a globally
alarming one.

'Spitting into the wind'

A case in point is the secretive manner in which Paulson has used the $700
billion in taxpayer funds voted him by a labile Congress in September.
Early on Paulson put $125 billion in the nine largest banks, including $10
billion for his old firm, Goldman Sachs. However, if one compared the value
of the equity share that $125 billion bought with the market price of those
banks' stock, US taxpayers have paid $125 billion for bank stock that a
private investor could have bought for $62.5 billion, according to a
detailed analysis from Ron W. Bloom, an economist with the US United
Steelworkers union, whose workers face devastating job losses were GM to
fail.

That means half of the public's money was a gift to Paulson's Wall Street
cronies. Now, only weeks later, the Treasury is forced to intervene to de
facto nationalize Citigroup. It will not be the last. Paulson demanded, and
got from a labile US Congress sole discretion over how and where he can
invest the $700 billion, to date with no effective oversight. It amounts to
the Treasury Secretary in effect 'spitting into the wind' in terms of
resolving the fundamental crisis.

It should be clear to any serious analyst by now that the September
decision by Paulson to defer to rigid financial ideology and let the fourth
largest US investment bank, Lehman Bros. fail, was the proximate trigger
for the present global crisis. Lehman Bros.' surprise collapse triggered
the current global crisis of confidence, because it was not clear to the
rest of the banking world which US financial institution bank might be
saved and which not after the Government had earlier saved the far smaller
Bear Stearns, while letting the larger more strategic Lehman Bros. fail.

Some details

The most alarming aspect of the crisis is the fact that we are in an
inter-regnum period when the next President has been elected but cannot act
on the situation until after January 20, 2009 when he is sworn in.

Consider the details of the latest Citigroup government de facto
nationalization (for ideological reasons Paulson and the Bush
Administration hysterically avoid admitting they are in the process of
nationalizing key banks). Citigroup has more than $2 trillion of assets,
dwarfing companies such as American International Group Inc. that got major
US Government funds in the past two months. Ironically, only eight weeks
before the US Government had designated Citigroup to take over the failing
Wachovia Bank. Now it is clear that the Citigroup was in deeper trouble
than Wachovia. In a matter of hours in the week before the US Government
nationalization was announced, the stock value of Citibank plunged to $3.77
in New York, giving the company a market value of about $21 billion. The
market value of Citigroup stock in December 2006 had been $247 billion. Two
days before the bank nationalization the CEO, Vikram Pandit had announced a
huge 52000 job slashing plan. It did nothing to stop the slide.

The scale of the hidden losses of perhaps the twenty largest major US banks
are so enormous that if not before, the first Presidential decree of
President Barack Obama will likely have to be declaration of a US 'Bank
Holiday' and the full nationalization of the major banks, taking on the
toxic assets and losses until the economy can again function with credit
flowing to industry once more. 

 Citigroup and the government have identified a pool of about $306 billion
in troubled assets. Citigroup will absorb the first $29 billion in losses.
After that, remaining losses will be split between Citigroup and the
government, with the bank absorbing 10% and the government absorbing 90%.
The US Treasury Department will use its $700 billion TARP or Troubled Asset
Recovery Program bailout fund, to assume up to $5 billion of losses. If
necessary, the Government's Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC)
will bear the next $10 billion of losses. Beyond that, the Federal Reserve
will guarantee any additional losses. The measures are without precedent in
US financial history. It is by no means certain they will salvage the
dollar system.

The reason is that the situation is so intertwined, with six US major banks
holding the vast bulk of worldwide financial derivatives exposure, that the
failure of a single major US financial institution could result in losses
to the OTC derivatives market of $300-$400 billion, a new IMF working paper
finds. What's more, since such a failure would likely cause cascading
failures of other institutions. The total global financial system losses
could exceed another $1,500 billion according to an IMF study by Singh and
Segoviano.

The madness over a Detroit GM rescue deal

The health of Citigroup is far from the most gripping crisis that must be
dealt with. At this point, political and ideological bickering in the US
Congress has so far prevented a simple emergency loan extension to General
Motors and other of the US Big Three automakers-Ford and Chrysler. The
absurd spectacle of US Congressmen attacking the chairmen of the Big Three
for flying to the emergency Congressional hearings on a rescue loan in
their private company jets underscores the utter lack of touch with reality
that has overwhelmed Washington in recent years.

For GM to go into bankruptcy risks a disaster of colossal proportions.
Although Lehman Bros., the biggest bankruptcy in US history, appeared to
have an orderly settlement of its credit defaults swaps, the disruption
occurred before-hand, as protection writers had to post additional
collateral PRIOR to settlement. That in turn was a major factor in the
horrific downdrafts in October. GM is bigger by far, meaning bigger
collateral damage, and this would take place when the financial system is
even weaker than when Lehman failed.

In addition, a second, and potentially far more damaging issue, has been
largely overlooked. The advocates of letting GM go bankrupt argue that it
can go into Chapter 11 just like other big companies that get themselves in
trouble. That may not come to pass, and a Chapter 7 or liquidation of GM
would be a seismic event.

The problem is that under Chapter 11 US law, it takes time for the company
to get the protection of a bankruptcy court. Until that time, which may be
weeks or months, the company would need urgently 'bridge financing' to
continue operating. This is known as 'Debtor-in-Possession or DIP
financing. DIP is essential for most Chapter 11 bankruptcies, as it takes
time to get the plan of reorganization approved by creditors and the
courts. Most companies, like GM today go to bankruptcy court when they are
at the end of their liquidity.

DIP is specifically for companies in, or on the verge of bankruptcy, and
the debt is generally senior to other outstanding creditor claims. So it is
actually very low risk, as the amount spent to shepherd a company through
the bankruptcy process is usually not large, relatively speaking, but DIP
lending is being severely curtailed right now, just when it is most needed,
as healthier banks drastically cut loans in the severe credit crunch
situation.

Without access to DIP bridge financing GM would likely be forced into a
partial, or even a full liquidation. The ramifications are nightmarish.
Aside from the loss of 100,000 jobs at GM itself, GM's business is critical
to keep many US auto suppliers in business. If GM failed soon most,
possibly even all of the US and even foreign auto suppliers go under. Those
parts suppliers are important to other auto makers. Many foreign car
factories would be forced to close due to loss of suppliers. Some analysts
put 2009 job losses from a GM failure as high as 2.5 million jobs due to
the follow-on effects. If the impact of that 2.5 million job loss is seen
in terms of the overall losses to the economy of non-auto jobs such as
services, home foreclosures caused and such, some estimate total impact
would be more than 15 million jobs.

So far in the face of this staggering prospect, the members of the US
Congress chose to focus on the fact the GM chief flew in the private
company jet to Washington. It conjures up the image of Nero playing his
fiddle as Rome goes up in flames. It should not be surprising that at the
recent EU-Asian summit Chinese officials mooted the idea of trading between
the EU and Asian nations such as China in Euro, Renminbi, Yen or other
national currencies other than the dollar. The Citigroup bailout and GM
debacle has confirmed the death of the post-1944 Bretton Woods Dollar
System.

The real truth behind Citigroup bailout

What neither Paulson nor anyone in Washington is willing to reveal is the
real truth behind the Citigroup bailout. By his and the Republican Bush
Administration's adamant earlier refusal to take an initial resolute
action to immediately nationalize the nine or so largest troubled banks and
reorganize the assets into some form of 'good bank' and 'bad bank,'
similar to what the Government of Sweden did with what it called Securum,
during its banking crisis in the early 1990's, allowing the healthy banks
to continue lending to the real economy so the economy could continue
operating, while the State merely sat on the undervalued real estate assets
of the Swedish banks for some months until the recovering economy made the
assets again marketable to the private sector,  Paulson and his 'crony
capitalists' have turned a bad situation into a globally catastrophic
one.

His apparent realization of the error of his initial refusal to
nationalize, deeming it in effect 'un-American' came too late. When
Paulson reversed policy on September 19 and presented the nine largest
banks with an ultimatum to accept partial Government equity ownership,
abandoning his original bizarre plan to merely buy up the toxic waste
asset-backed securtities of the banks with his $700 billion TARP taxpayer
money, he never revealed why.

Under the original Paulson Plan, as Dimitri B. Papadimitriou and Research
Scholar L. Randall Wray of the respected Jerome Levy Institute at Bard
College in New York point out, Paulson sought to create a situation in
which the US 'Treasury would become an owner of troubled financial
institutions in exchange for a capital injection-but without exercising
any ownership rights, such as replacing the management that created the
mess. The bailout would be used as an opportunity to consolidate control of
the nation's financial system in the hands of a few large (Wall Street)
banks, with government funds subsidizing purchases of troubled banks by
"healthy" ones.'

Paulson soon realized the scale of crisis, largely triggered by his inept
handling of the Lehman Brothers case, had created an impossible situation.
Were Paulson to use the $700 billion to buy up toxic waste ABS assets from
the select banks at today's market price, the $700 billion would be far
too little to take an estimated $2 trillion ($2,000 billion) in Asset
Backed Securities off the books of the banks.  The Levy Economics Institute
states, 'It is probable that many and perhaps most financial institutions
are insolvent today -- with a black hole of negative net worth that would
swallow Paulson's entire $700 billion in one gulp.'

That reality is the real reason Paulson was forced to abandon his original
'crony bailout' TARP plan and opt to use some of his money to buy
equity shares in the nine largest banks. That scheme as well is 'dead on
arrival.' The dilemma he has created with his inept handling of the
crisis is simple: If the US Government paid the true value for these nearly
worthless assets, the banks would have to write down huge losses, and, as
Levy economists put it, 'announce to the world that they are
insolvent.' On the other hand, if Paulson raised the toxic waste purchase
price high enough to protect the banks from losses, $700 billion 'will
buy only a tiny fraction of the 'troubled' assets.' That is what the
latest nationalization of Citigroup is about.

It is only the beginning. The 2009 year will be one of titanic shocks and
changes to the global order of a scale perhaps not experienced in the past
five centuries. This is why we speak of the end of the American Century and
its Dollar System.

How destructive that process will be to the citizens of the United States
who are the prime victims of Paulson's crony capitalists, as well as to
the rest of the world depends now on the urgency and resoluteness with
which heads of national Governments in Germany, the EU, China, Russia and
the rest of the non-US world react. It is no time for ideological
sentimentality and nostalgia of the postwar old order. That collapsed this
past September along with Lehman Brothers and the Republican Presidency.
Waiting for a 'miracle' from an Obama Presidency is no longer an option
for the rest of the world.




From maryrose333 at att.net  Wed Jan 28 07:22:50 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 06:22:50 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] Rumsfeld to stand trial for war
	crimes?
Message-ID: <000901c98153$e9a170f0$bce452d0$@net>



-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:32 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] Rumsfeld to stand trial for war crimes?


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Rumsfeld to stand trial for war crimes?
Tue, 27 Jan 2009 16:06:02 GMT
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail.aspx?id=83866&sectionid=3510203

A UN official says there is enough evidence that former US defense
secretary Donald Rumsfeld could be brought to justice for war crimes.

The United Nations Special Rapporteur on Torture Manfred Nowak in an
interview on Monday told CNN that the international body had enough
evidence to prosecute Rumsfeld for his direct authorization of tortures at
US detention centers in 2002.

"We have clear evidence," Nowak said. "In our report that we sent to the
United Nations, we made it clear that former Defense Secretary Donald
Rumsfeld clearly authorized torture methods and he was told at that time by
Alberto Mora, the legal council of the Navy, 'Mr. Secretary, what you are
actually ordering here amounts to torture.' So, there we have the clear
evidence that Mr. Rumsfeld knew what he was doing but, nevertheless, he
ordered torture."

The UN torture official earlier in an interview with Germany's ZDF
television had said that "I think the evidence is on the table."

Nowak said that the United States had an "obligation" to probe former
President George Bush's Administration for their involvement in torture.

A bipartisan Senate survey last month revealed that Rumsfeld and other
high-ranking administration officials were responsible for detainee abuse
at Guantanamo Bay Prison.

The Los Angeles Times said on December 12, 2008 that the report directed
its most pointed criticism at Rumsfeld's decision in December 2002 to
authorize the use of harsh interrogation techniques at the Guantanamo Bay
facility. The report described Rumsfeld's directive as "a direct cause for
detainee abuse" at Guantanamo and concluded that it "influenced and
contributed to the use of abusive techniques, including military working
dogs, forced nudity and stress positions, in Afghanistan and Iraq."

The coercive measures were based on a document signed by Bush in February,
2002.

Former Pakistani Guantanamo Bay prisoner, Mohammad Saad in Lahore
US new President Barack Obama has ordered for the notorious US facility at
Guantanamo to be shut down. But the so-called "enhanced interrogation
techniques" have already destroyed the lives of many who had kept for years
at US prisons worldwide without even charges.

"It's too painful, it's too deep, it's too dark and fills me with
sadness... They did everything they could to destroy me when I was
completely innocent," says former US detainee Mohammad Saad describing six
years of humiliation, interrogation and ill-treatment under US orders in
Egypt, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay.




From maryrose333 at att.net  Wed Jan 28 07:54:55 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 06:54:55 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] Get Ready to Rumble: The Fight
	for the Next Economy Begins
Message-ID: <001401c98158$655208f0$2ff61ad0$@net>

I still want to know how in a finite world jobs are going to be created for
everyone, or does this just means jobs for Americans, and the hell with the
rest of the world? 
We're in the ecological mess we are in now due to over-consumption here in
the U.S. and more new jobs means more consumption. As I wrote previously,
human hands don't work with nanotechnology. You still have an auto industry
that could not make it without built-in obsolescence so people had to
continually buy either new cars or new parts in order to keep the assembly
lines rolling in the past, and nothing has changed. Due to resource
depletion, we need autos and other like things that will last for 10 to 20
years. We can't keep filling up the waste dumps. And, speaking of waste
dumps, these need to be mined in order to recycle what's been dumped. But I
don't see anything that puts any money toward this endeavor.         

-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:15 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] Get Ready to Rumble: The Fight for the Next
Economy Begins


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(impossible agenda)

Get Ready to Rumble: The Fight for the Next Economy Begins
Robert L. Borosage
Co-Director of the Campaign for America's Future
January 27, 2009 | 07:29 PM (EST)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-l-borosage/get-ready-to-rumble-the-f_b_
161471.html

We are headed into the most ambitious era of progressive economic reform
since the New Deal. The crisis leaves little alternative, as job losses
mount across the country and the world. The Obama administration has hit
the ground running, pushing to pass an $800 billion plus recovery plan,
scrambling to put together a new plan for banks still on life support, and
cobbling together an initiative to help millions of families on the verge
of losing their homes.

But recovery, however daunting, is not enough. Even as the administration
struggles to fend off a full-scale depression, it faces the task of
constructing the foundations of the new economy out of the ashes of the
old.

Republicans, still grousing about more tax cuts and less spending, are
clueless. But even many Democrats seem to assume that if we just get the
economy going, bail out the banks, add a dash of regulation, we can go back
to business as usual.

But that is neither possible nor desirable. That old economy was founded on
stagnant incomes and unsustainable debt. Families struggled to keep their
heads above water by taking money out of their homes and assuming ever
higher levels of student, car, credit card and consumer loans. The country
served as the consumer of last resort for the world by borrowing staggering
sums -- $2 billion a day over the last years - from creditors abroad,
largely Japanese and Chinese central bankers. That economy was floated on
asset bubbles like that in housing which has now exploded in our faces. We
can't resuscitate the old economy - and should not want to.

The next economy must seek to provide a sustainable and a widely shared
prosperity, one where the American dream remains in reach for working
people. That will require new thinking and bold reforms. A group of
progressive organizations have joined together to kick off this discussion.
(For the first conference on "thinking big, thinking forward -- already
oversubscribed -- go here.)

But many of the changes needed are clear -- and the initial struggles over
signature reforms are already teed up.

What is needed to insure to every person a job with a decent wage, a world
class public education, affordable health care, and retirement with
dignity? This is the pledge Franklin Roosevelt made when he laid out his
Economic Bill of Rights in the midst of World War II. It was echoed in
Obama's inaugural address. Surely that new economy must include:

1. A new public social compact -- affordable health care, pensions above
Social Security -- to replace the promises that the corporations have
shredded. The signature fight over health care reform will begin this
year..

2. Sustained public investment in areas vital to a maintaining a high wage
path in a global economy -- world class schools, affordable college, 21st
century infrastructure, cutting edge science, research and development. The
first volleys of the signature battle -- over whether we will sustain
expanded public investment after the economy regains its footing or
short-change it --are already being exchanged.

3. A new global economic strategy -- featuring a new industrial policy --
that enables the US to balance its trade, while creating global rules that
protect workers, consumers and the environment, rather than threaten them.
The initial struggle over making the transition to renewable energy the
centerpiece of economic reform is beginning.

4. Restructuring and regulation of the financial sector, making banking a
boring occupation again, devoted to making loans to the real economy, not
hawking exotic instruments in operatic speculative ventures. The signature
reform -- taking over and breaking up the major banks that are on life
support -- is likely to be fought out in the next months.

5. An aggressive wage policy that empowers workers to organize and bargain
collectively, raises the minimum wage, and mandates basic benefits and
safety standards. The donnybrook will begin this Spring over the Employee
Free Choice Act.

These are fundamental choices threatening entrenched interests. Health care
reform requires taking on the drug and insurance companies. Sustaining
public investment requires defeating the military lobby and the wealthy
whose taxes will rise. A new global strategy challenges the multinationals
that profit from the old order. Getting Wall Street under control threatens
the largest political donors. The business lobby promises Armageddon if the
Employee Free Choice Act moves forward.

President Obama has already signaled his intention to go forward with the
core reforms in this agenda. So forget about a new era of bipartisan
consensus and get ready to rumble. We're headed into pitched battles that
will succeed only with massive popular mobilization. We won't have this
opportunity again, and we dare not blow it. 




From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 28 08:39:05 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 15:39:05 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Practical implementation of Consumer
	PricesCompensation
In-Reply-To: <1E7060FF-C75B-4954-B309-E94CBB2B752F@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <551038.44319.qm@web27404.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Wed, 28/1/09, Wallace Klinck <wmklinck at shaw.ca> wrote:

From: Wallace Klinck <wmklinck at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Practical implementation of Consumer PricesCompensation
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Wednesday, 28 January, 2009, 10:31 AM


Thanks, Joe--similar to and accords with my own reply which should appear shortly and which I wrote before reading this exposition of yours.
Wally Klinck







On 27-Jan-09, at 9:18 AM, Joe Thomson wrote:



(Graeme Taylor wrote:-)? So no subsidy can come from the government for certain industries and goods produced, speshly if they're export industries.?
This suggests to me that a subsidy would have to go direct to consumers, at least in Australia, but also with the US, NZ (apples and pears disputes), et al. who have co-signed such agreements
?
(Joe replies:-)? Absolutely!? That's, in effect, where they go.? ?That's what 'social credit' is all about.? Enabling CONSUMERS in?each?country to be able to more fully draw on the productive capacity of their?own?country.?
?
Only they shouldn't really be called 'subsidies', because in a properly functioning 'social credit' system they're not provided through taxation, but rather are in the nature of ongoing macro-economic accounting adjustments,? paid to the benefit of? Consumers, ?to properly relate "costs", "incomes", and "spending"?over ?each ?cycle of production in the national economy as a whole.
?
There are no subsidies to 'producers'.?Imported goods are subject to retail price compensation same as domestically made ones.???Only in the case of imported goods the compensatory 'credit' is only "effective demand" for the alternate GOODS of the?IMPORTING country.?
?
Not transferable, as now, ?into "effective demand" for other goods made??in?the EXPORTING?country for sale to its own citizens, and otherwise unsaleable there due to a lack of sufficient internal "effective demand".?
?
It restores international trade to what it properly should be.? An international exchange of 'relative surpluses' of GOODS between countries to diversify consumption in the home markets of those trading.?
?
Not a commercial 'war' to 'capture' each other's markets, simply to provide an excuse for creating 'money'.? Resulting in increasing "financial" impovershment?of the workforce in the importing country and an equally increasing "physical" enslavement of the workforce in the exporting one.?
?
From:?Graeme Taylor

To:?socialcredit at elistas.com
Sent:?Tuesday, January 27, 2009 12:19 AM
Subject:?Re: [socialcredit] Practical implementation of Consumer PricesCompensation


I wonder which commodities get compensated?
As an Australian who was smirking whilst reading those articles, thanks Wally, our Govt has sunsequently signed itself up to the global trade liberalisation agenda, and has operational free trade agreements with many nations. So no subsidy can come from the government for certain industries and goods produced, speshly if they're export industries.?
This suggests to me that a subsidy would have to go direct to consumers, at least in Australia, but also with the US, NZ (apples and pears disputes), et al. who have co-signed such agreements
?
cheers
Graeme T
?
(*ps It's always prudent to snip peoples email addresses when replying. Their transmission in the body of text attracts spam.)

----- Original Message -----
Sent:?Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:57 PM
Subject:?Re: [socialcredit] Practical implementation of Consumer Prices Compensation


This is a very interesting piece, Wally.? I think it shows very clearly that a Compensated Price Discount is not only workable, but has worked well in the past even when financed through taxation since, as was said,??"The essential truth is that the price subsidisation program was financed out of [a] portion of the new credits created to finance the war."
?
Readers should be aware that the final section, which has nothing to do with a Consumer's Discount, namely the part under the title "COUNTERFEIT MONEY" has, if I recall correctly, been discussed on here before.? There was a little more to that story than what's told here.
?
Regards,
Joe

----- Original Message -----
Sent:?Monday, January 26, 2009 5:59 PM
Subject:?[socialcredit] Practical implementation of Consumer Prices Compensation


The following is submitted with regard to recent debate within this group regarding Douglas's "Compensated Price." ?Victor Bridger has had wide business experience and was much involved in the program for subsidization of prices which was implemented during World War Two to keep down food prices in Australia at that time. ?He advises that the program worked very effectively and that he encountered no difficulties with its administration at that time.
Sincerely
Wally




Organ of the
INSTITUTEOF ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY

P.O. Box 33, Paddington, Queensland, 4064
No. I MARCH. 1970

THE FORGOTTEN STORY OF CONSUMER SUBSIDIES

The Hon. D. Anthony, Minister for Primary Industries, has stated that he finds the book, They Want Your Land, appeal to emotion rather than reason" and that the policy of consumer subsidies has long ago been rejected by the Government as being economically and politically impractical in the context of our National Policy aims, as well as being a very costly and inefficient means of attempting to help rural producers."


Mr. Anthony's statement that consumer subsidies are "politically impractical" is astonishing in view of the fact that in 1949 the Liberal-Country Party coalition Government came to office?on a policy of "putting the shillings back into the pound" by restoring the price subsidy system dismantled by the Labor Government.?The concept of a comprehensive price-subsidisation (or cost compensation) program is neither new nor revolutionary. A new type of financial policy was made necessary by the Second World War, when the myths of the ?thirties about "a shortage of finance" were shattered. The well-known Government adviser during the war years, Professor L. G. Giblin, states in his authoritative work,?The Growth of a Central Bank, that "The (Commonwealth Bank) in 1942 recognised that a great expansion of central bank credit was necessary to finance the war ...." This expansion of central bank credit enabled the Trading Banks to create and expand more
 credit also. Men, material and ?know-how? were the only limiting factors on the war effort, not "a shortage of finance".

In the nature of the present finance-economic system, a great expansion of new financial credits, much of it being devoted to capital production (war industries) has the effect of increasing the price level. An increased price level erodes the value of wages and salaries, this resulting in an increase in wages and salaries to offset this erosion. But increased wages and salaries, financed out of further expansions of credit by the banking system, must be costed into prices by employers, thus stimulating further what is often called the "price spiral". The threat of inflation to industrial stability during the Second World War was met by the introduction of selective price-subsidies on items used to compute the Basic Wage. Prices were reduced to the consumer without penalizing the producer.

It is true that the subsidisation was directly financed out of taxation. But the Government was only able to levy such heavy taxation because the great expansion of new financial credits had dramatically increased the supply of money in the pockets of the Australian people.

The essential truth is that the price subsidisation program was financed out of [a] portion of the new credits created to finance the war.?Government price control and rationing were only necessary to prevent exploiters taking advantage of the shortage of goods brought about by war production. These controls would have been completely unnecessary with adequate consumer production, such
as is the case at present. Price subsidization demonstrated that even with an enormous expansion of new credit for an expanding economy, price stability is possible. The big increases in price rises started with the dismantling of the price subsidization program after 1948. They have continued ever since.

Opposition leaders, including the then Mr. R. G. Menzies and the then Mr. Arthur Fadden, stressed that price increases were the result of dismantling the price subsidy program. By early 1949, these Opposition leaders were bluntly stating that if elected to office,?they would immediately restore the price subsidy program,?The Argus, Melbourne, on January 28, 1949, reported:


?Restoration of subsidies would be advocated by the Federal Country Party as part of its platform for the Federal Elections, Mr. Fadden, leader of the party, said yesterday. ?Our policy of stabilized prices is designed to increase the real purchasing power of wages, health and nutritional standards by increasing consumption,? he said. ?The Country Party's proposal is to restore subsidies to
commodities which are rising in price and are contributing to the already exorbitant living costs.??

The Liberal Party had agreed completely with the Country Party on price subsidisation. In a supplementary Policy statement, Mr. Menzies said before the 1949 elections: ?When, at the referendum of 1948,the people refused to give permanent price-fixing powers to the Commonwealth, the present government did two unpardonable things. First it threw price control to the States, hoping they would make a mess of it. Second, it withdrew most subsidies which had been created to keep down the cost of living. While encouraging production to the full, we shall hold ourselves ready to pay price subsidies in appropriate cases, as for example on those items affecting the basic wage earner?s cost of living.? (The Age, Melbourne, November 12, 1949.

Liberal and Country Party speakers attacked Socialist planners like Dr. Coombs, and campaigned strongly on their policy of "putting the shillings back into the pound" through restored price subsidies, reduced taxation and less bureaucracy. The electors voted for the policy.

The Sun, Melbourne, January 26, 1950, reported: "As a first step to bringing value back into the pound, the Federal Government is likely soon to subsidise some commodities in the cost-of-living index. Cabinet plans to begin its anti-inflation drive, in fulfillment of election pledges, on February 7. Appointment of a Ministerial economic policy committee was announced today by the Prime Minister (Mr. Menzies). The committee, he said, would start work next week with a team of experts so that the Government could formulate a policy on prices subsidies at once." But the "experts", the very planners previously criticised, clearly "bluffed" the new government. On February 10 the Government announced the appointment of Dr. H. C. Coombs as Chairman of the newly-created Commonwealth Bank Board. It was obvious that the Menzies-Fadden banking policies were a continuation of the Chifley Government's. There was an upsurge of criticism in many Liberal Party branches,
 but it proved ineffective.

By April 5, 1950, Prime Minister Menzies had formally capitulated to the "advisers" and planners.?The Sun, Melbourne, of that date, reported as follows: "Mr. Menzies said (to the Launceston Chamber of Commerce) that putting value back into the pound was not the Government's responsibility. It was the peoples'." From then on there was no more talk of price subsidies. There
was a steady retreat from the brave words and promises of the pre-1949 Federal Elections.?

This forgotten story of consumer subsidies proves that the election of politicians pledged to a clear-cut policy, does not necessarily mean that that policy will be implemented if it meets with the disapproval of the entrenched
bureaucracy. Early in 1950 it was demonstrated that the Liberal-Country Party coalition was unable to implement a policy strongly supported by the electors. In face of the facts, it is obvious that merely electing different politicians will,?of itself?have no real bearing on the question of how power is to be decentralised into the hands of the people. The battle to wrest power from those now exercising it, must be fought through the people's political and other institutions. This means the applications of effective pressure on the
electors' paid servants at Canberra, making it clear that they must either take up again the battle promised in 1949, or be removed in favor of men with the courage to do this. Mr. Anthony's claim that consumer subsidies are "impractical" is a repudiation of what was once a major Country Party policy.


LIBERAL MP ATTACKS POLICY OF RURAL SUBSIDIES"

The above was the heading in?The Australian?(February 19) report of an address by South Australian Federal Liberal MP Mr. Kelly to the annual conference of the
Australian Economic Society in Melbourne. Mr. Kelly put the view so prevalent at present, that a Federal Government "should be influenced more by its national
Economic responsibilities and less by short-term political considerations." He said that the Federal Government "should lead, not follow." Mr. Kelly's philosophy is akin to that of National Socialism. In a genuine democracy,
policy making is freely decided by the individual, both in the political and the economic field. The responsibility of Mr. Kelly and his fellow over-paid Members, is to represent the policies of the electors.

Mr. Kelly quite naturally emerges as an exponent of the get-bigger-or-get-out philosophy: ". . . those of us in the wool industry know that one of the few means available to us to reduce costs is to produce more wool?in other words, to become larger woolgrowers." Mr. Kelly must be aware that large numbers of Australian woolgrowers have become much more efficient, and are producing more wool. But while their greater effciency, and their intensified production, has substantially increased the total amount of wool for sale, financial costs, all
stemming from the inflationary financial policies which the Federal Government endorses, continue to outstrip the results of greater efficiency. The sane purpose of production is consumption, to serve the real needs of the
consumer, not to go on increasing production simply in an endeavour to keep up with rising financial costs. The bigger primary producer who thinks he can survive by the elimination of the smaller producers, is merely helping
to prepare for his own eventual elimination as an independent man. If Mr. Kelly has been reported correctly, he is opposed to the principle of rural subsidies because these will prevent the policy of bigger production units which he supports. By inference he admits that subsidisation could halt centralisation.

Mr. Kelly states that "To insulate an industry from the costs around it is the kiss of death to that industry."??The costs to which Mr. Kelly refers are financial costs stemming from the present inflationary financial policies?????????????????????of the Federal Government. They manifest themselves in numerous ways, in the increased financial prices the producer has to pay for what he buys, the higher wages he must pay, the increased rates which Municipal Governments are forced to impose because they are under the inflationary pressures. As the primary producer is not responsible for these rising financial costs, and has in most
cases reduced his real costs of production through greater efficiency, it is elementary that any policy which "insulates" him against inflation must be of benefit to him as producer and a member of the community. If the policy of "insulation" includes consumer subsidies, paid only on what consumers buy, then both producer and consumer benefit.

Mr. Kelly expresses concern that if some type of cost compensation scheme is applied to the wool industry "we will be up for big money." He points out that only 5 cents a pound subsidy would be $100 million. Mr. Kelly must surely be out of touch with reality. If even this amount were financed out of new financial credits, or in the form of some type of Government debentures which could be used to meet certain specific liabilities such as rates and taxes, it is obvious that Australian woolgrowers would have an extra $100 million to spend on the type of production they desire. This would be a genuine increase in purchasing power. All would benefit. Unless this, or some similar policy is applied, then what Mr. Kelly terms "big money" will be but "chicken-feed" compared to what will be required to finance more inflation and centralisation.

Mr. Kelly makes the point that "two elections every three years and the pressure for popularity tends to prevent the Government giving an industry the medicine which is necessary for its well-being." The correct function of government in a democratic society is to provide a Rule of Law, particularly in the field of finance, which enables individuals to get the benefits from their various forms of association. Talk about Governments administering medicine rather smacks of the caster-oil treatment used by the Fascist regime under Mussolini. It might be suggested that Mr. Kelly and some of his colleagues might be given a little appropriate medicine to encourage them to halt their present Socialist inflation and taxation policies. Perhaps it would help if every time the price level went up three per cent., the salaries of Mr. Kelly and his Government colleagues could come down three per cent.


COUNTERFEIT MONEY


On December 7, 1968, in the township of Credit River, in the County of Scott, Minnesota, U.S.A. history was made.

Jerome Daly, a lawyer, was brought to Court because a mortgage held by the First National Bank of Montgomery, on a house bought by him was in default, so
the Bank foreclosed. Mr. Daly (the Defendant), in answer to the charge, said that the Bank (the Plaintiff) created money and credit upon its own books by bookkeeping entry as the consideration for the Note and Mortgage of May 8, 1964, and he therefore alleged that the Sheriff's sale of the house passed no title to the Plaintiff. The Plaintiff, Lawrence V. Morgan, President of the Bank, admitted that all the money or credit which was used as a consideration was created upon their books, that this was standard banking practice exercised by their Bank in combination with the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis, another private Bank; further that he knew of no United States Statute or Law that gave the Bank the authority to do this.

At 12:15 on December 8, 1968, the jury returned a unanimous verdict for the Defendant, Daly.

The Justice of the Peace, Martin Mahoney, who tried the case, added a memorandum to the findings of the Court, in which he said: "The issues in this case were
simple. There was no material dispute on the facts for the Jury to resolve. Plaintiff admitted that it, in combination with the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis . . . did create the entire $14,000 in money or credit upon its own books, by book-keeping entry. Mr. Morgan admitted that no United States Law or Statute Existed which gave him the right to do this. A lawful consideration must exist and be tendered to support the Note. The Jury found there was no lawful consideration and I agree . . ."


DISTRIBUTETHESE
PAMPHLETS NOW!

The Institute of Economic Democracy has published two important pamphlets for wide distribution by farmers to their fellow farmers, those holding executive positions in farmers organizations and members of parliament. The more the M.P.'s find their mail boxes filled with the pamphlets and endorsing their sentiments the more likely are they to take action. The pamphlets emphasise the
need for politicians to challenge the grip now held by financial advisers in the Treasury and Universities on Government policies. Only an irate and aroused electorate will get the necessary results.


The first pamphlet is entitled?Answers Farmers Must Ask, and is subtitled,?and have answered if they are to survive as Independent Owners, financially secure.?In question and answer form it outlines the broad history of factors of the government's inflationary policy which has slowly destroyed the gains made by the farmer. Facts and figures of production, inflation and indebtedness are
included, with strong reasons why the politicians must reverse present policies.

The second pamphlet is entitled?Federal Government's Financial Policies RAISE COSTS?INCREASE PRICES?RUIN FARMERS! TIME FOR ACTION NOW!?The demands made in the pamphlet are for Lower Costs?Lower Debt and for Purchasing Power Not Subject to Inflation. It sets out two alternative policies, immediate Short Term Relief and A Long Term Policy which Will Never Let the Situation Occur Again. The pamphlet takes up various suggestions for price subsidies made by different spokesmen for farmers over recent weeks. Two simple illustrations of the application of consumer subsidies are set out, and an answer to the inevitable question "where is the money to come from?" is given.




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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 28 08:40:49 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 15:40:49 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] UK "will suffer worst" amide turmoil..
Message-ID: <27468.90752.qm@web27405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

UK 'will suffer worst' amid turmoil

59 mins ago 

Print Story 

The UK is expected to suffer the worst slump of all advanced nations in the "deepest recession since the Second World War", world economists said. Skip related content



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IMF warns on funding and new Fed easing awaited? 
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Related Hot Topic: Financial Crisis 

Have your say: Financial Crisis
All major economies are expected to experience steep falls in output in 2009, but the drop for Britain is forecast to be substantially greater than the average, according to the International Monetary Fund's (IMF) World Economic Outlook.
In an update to its November report, the IMF said it had revised down its expectations for the contraction in the UK economy, from 1.3% to 2.8%. Advanced nations are expected to suffer an average 2% drop in output.
The IMF said global growth is expected to fall to 0.5% this year as the "scale and scope of the current financial crisis have taken the global economy into uncharted waters".
It called on governments to find new strategies to combat the economic turmoil and counter uncertainty.
"The main risk is that, unless stronger financial strains and uncertainties are forcefully addressed, the pernicious feedback loop between real activity and financial markets will intensify, leading to even more toxic effects on global growth," the report said.
Official figures last week confirmed that Britain fell into recession at the end of 2008. The UK economy contracted by 1.5% in the final three months of the year - worse than expected by analysts and sparking fears of a deep and prolonged recession.
Overall, UK gross domestic product (GDP) for 2008 as a whole fell to 0.7%, the poorest full-year output since 1992.
The UK recession has been all but inevitable in recent months as the financial crisis escalated in the wake of the credit crunch, which caused a crippling lending drought. This has hit the housing and construction markets hard, with all sectors across the economy now suffering.
The IMF said global recovery would not be possible until the financial sector began functioning again. The report said: "Despite wide-ranging policy actions, financial strains remain acute, pulling down the real economy."

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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 28 10:12:49 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 17:12:49 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [monetaryReform] Fed eases
In-Reply-To: <glq07b+c5vl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <53376.62422.qm@web27405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Wed, 28/1/09, Andrew Bellon <andrew at jamieservices.com> wrote:

From: Andrew Bellon <andrew at jamieservices.com>
Subject: [monetaryReform] Fed eases
To: monetaryReform at yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 28 January, 2009, 4:13 PM






Hi all --

With self-ironic aplomb the magnanimous Fed eases vig to "boost
economy!" What more proof does anyone need!

http://news. yahoo.com/ s/nm/20090128/ bs_nm/us_ usa_fed

best regards,
ab

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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 28 11:04:01 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 18:04:01 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] The Energy Economy...................p2p foundation.........
Message-ID: <332059.44304.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

?
Dear All,
?
?????????? This may be of interest.
?
http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Energy_Economy
?
?
Robert Searle


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan 29 03:07:58 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:07:58 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Policy.
In-Reply-To: <BLU116-W28939800AA08ED165CD728BDC90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <518614.46369.qm@web27408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Thu, 29/1/09, John G Rawson <johngrawson at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: John G Rawson <johngrawson at hotmail.com>
Subject: [socialcredit] Policy.
To: "Socred elistas" <socialcredit at elistas.com>
Date: Thursday, 29 January, 2009, 12:27 AM




#yiv1959634066 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv1959634066 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

The Albertans?have asked for examples of policy to promote.
I can't believe that there is nobody in this group capable of succinctly expressing practical policy statements.

Kenneth, your discourse was one of the best I have seen on the theory behind the the just price idea, but if we ever want to implement the idea, we must explain to someone formulating policy exactly what we want.?That?expert almost certainly will have a socialist background and no knowledge of S C. (Unless we too are going to work on "jobs for the boys".) And it doesn't matter if a S C oriented government arises through a political party, public demand by other means or divine intervention, someone has to put the process into law.
?
So, who will be responsible to implement the idea and how will (they) be appointed? To whom will (they) report?? What level of price reduction is desired, or what category will be used to compute it from time to time? Where will the money come from? (At least this has been stated, I think.) How will it be paid out and to whom? Will there be any mechanism inbuilt to control prices and if so what?
?
All these points and probably several more are in the realm of policy. The means of achieving these policy points come within the realm of application, to be left to lawyers, accountants etc.
?
Is it only those who advocate party political action that have the practical ability even to?think about hard data like this?
?
Regards.

John R.




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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan 29 07:37:29 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:37:29 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] [socialcredit] Practical implementation of Consumer
	Prices Compens
In-Reply-To: <DA916D59-A616-4D4B-8CCF-47F3C70BA801@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <163860.32225.qm@web27406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



--- On Thu, 29/1/09, Jim Inness <drjiminness at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Jim Inness <drjiminness at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Practical implementation of Consumer Prices Compens
To: socialcredit at elistas.com
Date: Thursday, 29 January, 2009, 10:38 AM

Douglas had two concepts in mind;one was a subsidy on commodity prices, and the
other was a national dividend, payable to every member of a nation's
population. And in the cause of sanity, PLEASE don't anyone ask where
Government would obtain the money!!
On 29/01/2009, at 3:07 AM, Kenneth Palmerton wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <BLU116-W874992C4018DB7BD4FD85BDC80 at phx.gbl>
> And should we forget that during WW2 Galbraiths job within the US
> Government was PRICE CONTROL :-)))
> 
> Ken.
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> 
> *From:* John G Rawson <johngrawson at hotmail.com>
> *To:* Socred elistas <socialcredit at elistas.com>
> *Date:* Wed, 28 Jan 2009 00:06:45 +0000
> 
> OK Joe.  And, on the side, nice to see Social Crediters using the accepted
> term "subsidy" without the shock/horror of pretending they
always have to
> be paid out of taxation to merit the term.
> However, you got only part of the story.  Those were times of strict price
> controls of the items subsidised, and also very comprehensive import
> controls. Butter here, for example, was sold at two shillings (20c) per
> pound, everywhere in the country.  Part of the deal was that the Dairy
> Board was financed at 1% by Reserve Bank Credit.
> Australia maintained strong import controls a bit longer than we did,
> right into the mid or late fifties. They did not apply only to luxuries;
> chainsaws were one item for them then, and their contractors could only
> get inferior machines, not good North American or European ones. (I'm
not
> sure what they had, but I do know this as factual.
> I am also interersted if or where we need to draw a line.  In NZ only
> white bread was subsidised, healthier wholemeal was not! Where do we
> decide (if we do) between:Bread and hard drugs?  Pure fruit juice and
> CocaCola?
> A home made product or a cheap one from somewhere that labour is sweated?
> Regards.
> John R.
> 
> From: thomsonhiyu at shaw.caTo: socialcredit at elistas.comDate: Mon, 26 Jan
> 2009 20:57:44 -0800Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Practical implementation of
> Consumer Prices Compensation
> 
> 
> This is a very interesting piece, Wally.  I think it shows very clearly
> that a Compensated Price Discount is not only workable, but has worked
> well in the past even when financed through taxation since, as was said,
> "The essential truth is that the price subsidisation program was
financed
> out of [a] portion of the new credits created to finance the war."
> 
> Readers should be aware that the final section, which has nothing to do
> with a Consumer's Discount, namely the part under the title
"COUNTERFEIT
> MONEY" has, if I recall correctly, been discussed on here before. 
There
> was a little more to that story than what's told here.
> 
> Regards,
> Joe
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wallace Klinck
> To: socialcredit at elistas.com
> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 5:59 PM
> Subject: [socialcredit] Practical implementation of Consumer Prices
> Compensation
> 
> The following is submitted with regard to recent debate within this group
> regarding Douglas's "Compensated Price."  Victor Bridger has
had wide
> business experience and was much involved in the program for subsidization
> of prices which was implemented during World War Two to keep down food
> prices in Australia at that time.  He advises that the program worked very
> effectively and that he encountered no difficulties with its
> administration at that time.
> Sincerely
> Wally
> 
> 
> Organ of the
> INSTITUTEOF ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY
> 
> P.O. Box 33, Paddington, Queensland, 4064
> No. I MARCH. 1970
> 
> THE FORGOTTEN STORY OF CONSUMER SUBSIDIES
> 
> The Hon. D. Anthony, Minister for Primary Industries, has stated that he
> finds the book, They Want Your Land, appeal to emotion rather than
reason"
> and that the policy of consumer subsidies has long ago been rejected by
> the Government as being economically and politically impractical in the
> context of our National Policy aims, as well as being a very costly and
> inefficient means of attempting to help rural producers."
> 
> 
> Mr. Anthony's statement that consumer subsidies are "politically
> impractical" is astonishing in view of the fact that in 1949 the
> Liberal-Country Party coalition Government came to office on a policy of
> "putting the shillings back into the pound" by restoring the
price subsidy
> system dismantled by the Labor Government. The concept of a comprehensive
> price-subsidisation (or cost compensation) program is neither new nor
> revolutionary. A new type of financial policy was made necessary by the
> Second World War, when the myths of the _thirties about "a shortage
of
> finance" were shattered. The well-known Government adviser during the
war
> years, Professor L. G. Giblin, states in his authoritative work, The
> Growth of a Central Bank, that "The (Commonwealth Bank) in 1942
recognised
> that a great expansion of central bank credit was necessary to finance the
> war ...." This expansion of central bank credit enabled the Trading
Banks
> to create and expand more credit also. Men, material and _know-how_ were
> the only limiting factors on the war effort, not "a shortage of
finance".
> 
> In the nature of the present finance-economic system, a great expansion of
> new financial credits, much of it being devoted to capital production (war
> industries) has the effect of increasing the price level. An increased
> price level erodes the value of wages and salaries, this resulting in an
> increase in wages and salaries to offset this erosion. But increased wages
> and salaries, financed out of further expansions of credit by the banking
> system, must be costed into prices by employers, thus stimulating further
> what is often called the "price spiral". The threat of inflation
to
> industrial stability during the Second World War was met by the
> introduction of selective price-subsidies on items used to compute the
> Basic Wage. Prices were reduced to the consumer without penalizing the
> producer.
> 
> It is true that the subsidisation was directly financed out of taxation.
> But the Government was only able to levy such heavy taxation because the
> great expansion of new financial credits had dramatically increased the
> supply of money in the pockets of the Australian people.
> 
> The essential truth is that the price subsidisation program was financed
> out of [a] portion of the new credits created to finance the war.
> Government price control and rationing were only necessary to prevent
> exploiters taking advantage of the shortage of goods brought about by war
> production. These controls would have been completely unnecessary with
> adequate consumer production, such
> as is the case at present. Price subsidization demonstrated that even with
> an enormous expansion of new credit for an expanding economy, price
> stability is possible. The big increases in price rises started with the
> dismantling of the price subsidization program after 1948. They have
> continued ever since.
> 
> Opposition leaders, including the then Mr. R. G. Menzies and the then Mr.
> Arthur Fadden, stressed that price increases were the result of
> dismantling the price subsidy program. By early 1949, these Opposition
> leaders were bluntly stating that if elected to office, they would
> immediately restore the price subsidy program, The Argus, Melbourne, on
> January 28, 1949, reported:
> 
> 
> _Restoration of subsidies would be advocated by the Federal Country Party
> as part of its platform for the Federal Elections, Mr. Fadden, leader of
> the party, said yesterday. _Our policy of stabilized prices is designed to
> increase the real purchasing power of wages, health and nutritional
> standards by increasing consumption,_ he said. _The Country Party's
> proposal is to restore subsidies to
> commodities which are rising in price and are contributing to the already
> exorbitant living costs.__
> 
> The Liberal Party had agreed completely with the Country Party on price
> subsidisation. In a supplementary Policy statement, Mr. Menzies said
> before the 1949 elections: _When, at the referendum of 1948,the people
> refused to give permanent price-fixing powers to the Commonwealth, the
> present government did two unpardonable things. First it threw price
> control to the States, hoping they would make a mess of it. Second, it
> withdrew most subsidies which had been created to keep down the cost of
> living. While encouraging production to the full, we shall hold ourselves
> ready to pay price subsidies in appropriate cases, as for example on those
> items affecting the basic wage earner_s cost of living._ (The Age,
> Melbourne, November 12, 1949.
> 
> Liberal and Country Party speakers attacked Socialist planners like Dr.
> Coombs, and campaigned strongly on their policy of "putting the
shillings
> back into the pound" through restored price subsidies, reduced
taxation
> and less bureaucracy. The electors voted for the policy.
> 
> The Sun, Melbourne, January 26, 1950, reported: "As a first step to
> bringing value back into the pound, the Federal Government is likely soon
> to subsidise some commodities in the cost-of-living index. Cabinet plans
> to begin its anti-inflation drive, in fulfillment of election pledges, on
> February 7. Appointment of a Ministerial economic policy committee was
> announced today by the Prime Minister (Mr. Menzies). The committee, he
> said, would start work next week with a team of experts so that the
> Government could formulate a policy on prices subsidies at once." But
the
> "experts", the very planners previously criticised, clearly
"bluffed" the
> new government. On February 10 the Government announced the appointment of
> Dr. H. C. Coombs as Chairman of the newly-created Commonwealth Bank Board.
> It was obvious that the Menzies-Fadden banking policies were a
> continuation of the Chifley Government's. There was an upsurge of
> criticism in many Liberal Party branches, but it proved ineffective.
> 
> By April 5, 1950, Prime Minister Menzies had formally capitulated to the
> "advisers" and planners. The Sun, Melbourne, of that date,
reported as
> follows: "Mr. Menzies said (to the Launceston Chamber of Commerce)
that
> putting value back into the pound was not the Government's
responsibility.
> It was the peoples'." From then on there was no more talk of
price
> subsidies. There
> was a steady retreat from the brave words and promises of the pre-1949
> Federal Elections.
> 
> This forgotten story of consumer subsidies proves that the election of
> politicians pledged to a clear-cut policy, does not necessarily mean that
> that policy will be implemented if it meets with the disapproval of the
> entrenched
> bureaucracy. Early in 1950 it was demonstrated that the Liberal-Country
> Party coalition was unable to implement a policy strongly supported by the
> electors. In face of the facts, it is obvious that merely electing
> different politicians will, of itself have no real bearing on the question
> of how power is to be decentralised into the hands of the people. The
> battle to wrest power from those now exercising it, must be fought through
> the people's political and other institutions. This means the
applications
> of effective pressure on the
> electors' paid servants at Canberra, making it clear that they must
either
> take up again the battle promised in 1949, or be removed in favor of men
> with the courage to do this. Mr. Anthony's claim that consumer
subsidies
> are "impractical" is a repudiation of what was once a major
Country Party
> policy.
> 
> 
> LIBERAL MP ATTACKS POLICY OF RURAL SUBSIDIES"
> 
> The above was the heading in The Australian (February 19) report of an
> address by South Australian Federal Liberal MP Mr. Kelly to the annual
> conference of the
> Australian Economic Society in Melbourne. Mr. Kelly put the view so
> prevalent at present, that a Federal Government "should be influenced
more
> by its national
> Economic responsibilities and less by short-term political
> considerations." He said that the Federal Government "should
lead, not
> follow." Mr. Kelly's philosophy is akin to that of National
Socialism. In
> a genuine democracy,
> policy making is freely decided by the individual, both in the political
> and the economic field. The responsibility of Mr. Kelly and his fellow
> over-paid Members, is to represent the policies of the electors.
> 
> Mr. Kelly quite naturally emerges as an exponent of the
> get-bigger-or-get-out philosophy: ". . . those of us in the wool
industry
> know that one of the few means available to us to reduce costs is to
> produce more wool_in other words, to become larger woolgrowers." Mr.
Kelly
> must be aware that large numbers of Australian woolgrowers have become
> much more efficient, and are producing more wool. But while their greater
> effciency, and their intensified production, has substantially increased
> the total amount of wool for sale, financial costs, all
> stemming from the inflationary financial policies which the Federal
> Government endorses, continue to outstrip the results of greater
> efficiency. The sane purpose of production is consumption, to serve the
> real needs of the
> consumer, not to go on increasing production simply in an endeavour to
> keep up with rising financial costs. The bigger primary producer who
> thinks he can survive by the elimination of the smaller producers, is
> merely helping
> to prepare for his own eventual elimination as an independent man. If Mr.
> Kelly has been reported correctly, he is opposed to the principle of rural
> subsidies because these will prevent the policy of bigger production units
> which he supports. By inference he admits that subsidisation could halt
> centralisation.
> 
> Mr. Kelly states that "To insulate an industry from the costs around
it is
> the kiss of death to that industry."  The costs to which Mr. Kelly
refers
> are financial costs stemming from the present inflationary financial
> policies                     of the Federal Government. They manifest
> themselves in numerous ways, in the increased financial prices the
> producer has to pay for what he buys, the higher wages he must pay, the
> increased rates which Municipal Governments are forced to impose because
> they are under the inflationary pressures. As the primary producer is not
> responsible for these rising financial costs, and has in most
> cases reduced his real costs of production through greater efficiency, it
> is elementary that any policy which "insulates" him against
inflation must
> be of benefit to him as producer and a member of the community. If the
> policy of "insulation" includes consumer subsidies, paid only on
what
> consumers buy, then both producer and consumer benefit.
> 
> Mr. Kelly expresses concern that if some type of cost compensation scheme
> is applied to the wool industry "we will be up for big money."
He points
> out that only 5 cents a pound subsidy would be $100 million. Mr. Kelly
> must surely be out of touch with reality. If even this amount were
> financed out of new financial credits, or in the form of some type of
> Government debentures which could be used to meet certain specific
> liabilities such as rates and taxes, it is obvious that Australian
> woolgrowers would have an extra $100 million to spend on the type of
> production they desire. This would be a genuine increase in purchasing
> power. All would benefit. Unless this, or some similar policy is applied,
> then what Mr. Kelly terms "big money" will be but
"chicken-feed" compared
> to what will be required to finance more inflation and centralisation.
> 
> Mr. Kelly makes the point that "two elections every three years and
the
> pressure for popularity tends to prevent the Government giving an industry
> the medicine which is necessary for its well-being." The correct
function
> of government in a democratic society is to provide a Rule of Law,
> particularly in the field of finance, which enables individuals to get the
> benefits from their various forms of association. Talk about Governments
> administering medicine rather smacks of the caster-oil treatment used by
> the Fascist regime under Mussolini. It might be suggested that Mr. Kelly
> and some of his colleagues might be given a little appropriate medicine to
> encourage them to halt their present Socialist inflation and taxation
> policies. Perhaps it would help if every time the price level went up
> three per cent., the salaries of Mr. Kelly and his Government colleagues
> could come down three per cent.
> 
> 
> COUNTERFEIT MONEY
> 
> 
> On December 7, 1968, in the township of Credit River, in the County of
> Scott, Minnesota, U.S.A. history was made.
> 
> Jerome Daly, a lawyer, was brought to Court because a mortgage held by the
> First National Bank of Montgomery, on a house bought by him was in
> default, so
> the Bank foreclosed. Mr. Daly (the Defendant), in answer to the charge,
> said that the Bank (the Plaintiff) created money and credit upon its own
> books by bookkeeping entry as the consideration for the Note and Mortgage
> of May 8, 1964, and he therefore alleged that the Sheriff's sale of
the
> house passed no title to the Plaintiff. The Plaintiff, Lawrence V. Morgan,
> President of the Bank, admitted that all the money or credit which was
> used as a consideration was created upon their books, that this was
> standard banking practice exercised by their Bank in combination with the
> Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis, another private Bank; further that he
> knew of no United States Statute or Law that gave the Bank the authority
> to do this.
> 
> At 12:15 on December 8, 1968, the jury returned a unanimous verdict for
> the Defendant, Daly.
> 
> The Justice of the Peace, Martin Mahoney, who tried the case, added a
> memorandum to the findings of the Court, in which he said: "The
issues in
> this case were
> simple. There was no material dispute on the facts for the Jury to
> resolve. Plaintiff admitted that it, in combination with the Federal
> Reserve Bank of Minneapolis . . . did create the entire $14,000 in money
> or credit upon its own books, by book-keeping entry. Mr. Morgan admitted
> that no United States Law or Statute Existed which gave him the right to
> do this. A lawful consideration must exist and be tendered to support the
> Note. The Jury found there was no lawful consideration and I agree . .
."
> 
> 
> DISTRIBUTETHESE
> PAMPHLETS NOW!
> 
> The Institute of Economic Democracy has published two important pamphlets
> for wide distribution by farmers to their fellow farmers, those holding
> executive positions in farmers organizations and members of parliament.
> The more the M.P.'s find their mail boxes filled with the pamphlets
and
> endorsing their sentiments the more likely are they to take action. The
> pamphlets emphasise the
> need for politicians to challenge the grip now held by financial advisers
> in the Treasury and Universities on Government policies. Only an irate and
> aroused electorate will get the necessary results.
> 
> 
> The first pamphlet is entitled Answers Farmers Must Ask, and is subtitled,
> and have answered if they are to survive as Independent Owners,
> financially secure. In question and answer form it outlines the broad
> history of factors of the government's inflationary policy which has
> slowly destroyed the gains made by the farmer. Facts and figures of
> production, inflation and indebtedness are
> included, with strong reasons why the politicians must reverse present
> policies.
> 
> The second pamphlet is entitled Federal Government's Financial
Policies
> RAISE COSTS_INCREASE PRICES_RUIN FARMERS! TIME FOR ACTION NOW! The demands
> made in the pamphlet are for Lower Costs_Lower Debt and for Purchasing
> Power Not Subject to Inflation. It sets out two alternative policies,
> immediate Short Term Relief and A Long Term Policy which Will Never Let
> the Situation Occur Again. The pamphlet takes up various suggestions for
> price subsidies made by different spokesmen for farmers over recent weeks.
> Two simple illustrations of the application of consumer subsidies are set
> out, and an answer to the inevitable question "where is the money to
come
> from?" is given.
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan 29 07:40:32 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:40:32 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Dean Bakers Proposals for the Obama Stimulus Package
Message-ID: <20297.50311.qm@web27402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


Dean Baker?s proposals for the Obama stimulus package 

Michel Bauwens
29th January 2009



Great example of how stimulating/promoting/funding open and participatory processes makes economic and policy sense. I?m only quoting the 3 ?p2p? related policy proposals out of a total of seven.
For some personal details about Dean Baker, see the book information at the bottom of this entry.
By economist Dean Baker:
1. Policy proposals:
?President Obama could not find any economists who were able to see the housing bubble for his economic team. Fortunately, he indicated that he would be willing to listen to those of us who did in designing his stimulus package.
In response to his request for ideas on how to make his economic recovery package more effective, I have put together the following list of seven proposals.?
?
Publicly Funded Clinical Trials
?Start a system of publicly funded clinical trials. The point would be to take the conduct of trials out of the control of the drug industry so that doctors and researchers would have immediate and full access to all research findings.
As a quid pro quo for paying for the trials, the government would get control of the licensing of the patent. The drugs developed through this system would all be sold as generics costing somewhere near $4 apiece at Wal-Mart. The payback from this would be enormous, instead of spending $330 billion a year on prescription drugs in 2012, we might spend closer to $30 billion. We?ll be paying $30 billion a year or so for clinical trials, and maybe close to that much in licensing fees, and getting much better medicine.
And, as a side benefit, people in developing countries would get cheap drugs too. We could put an end to ?free-trade? agreements that try to jack up drug prices in poor countries through stronger patent protections. Total cost: $30 billion a year.?
?
Funding for Writers/Artists/Creative Workers
?In the New Deal there was both a federal arts project and a federal writers project. These programs employed thousands of young artists and writers. A creative stimulus package can extend this idea for the Internet Age. Suppose that President Obama made $10 billion a year available for state and local governments to support various types of creative and artistic work. This could include music, movies, writing books, even journalism. The one condition for support is that all material be made freely available in the public domain. (Better yet, it could have copyleft protection.)
This funding would be sufficient to employ 200,000 people a year at an average of $50,000 each. This would put an enormous amount of creative work in the public domain that people all over the world could download at zero cost. In the first year or two, we could have this program administered through public agencies, but in later years we can have people choose for themselves which work they want to support through a tax credit. The cost would be approximately $10 billion a year.?
?
Funding for the Development of Open Software
?In the same vein, the government can spend $2 billion a year to develop open source software. This money can be used to further develop and simplify open source operating systems such as Linux, as well other forms of free software. The payoffs from this spending would be enormous. Imagine that every computer buyer in the world would be able to get a computer for which the operating system was free, as was almost all the software that they would ever use.
This would surely save consumers an average of at least $200 per computer. With sales at close to 20 million a year, the savings in the United States alone could easily exceed the cost of supporting software development. Adding in the benefits (and presumably some contributions) from the rest of the world, we will be way ahead by going the route of publicly funded open software open software. The cost would be $2 billion a year.?
2. Book: The Conservative Nanny State
?A new voice for me is that of Dean Baker, co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research in Washington, DC. whose book, THE CONSERVATIVE NANNY STATE; How the Wealthy Use the Government to Stay Rich and Get Richer, is available for download on line link here under a Creative Commons license. The book is about much more than IP, as the subtitle indicates, but this review focuses on the IP issues Baker covers. He calls the chapter, ?Bill Gates Welfare Mom: How Government Patent and Copyright Monopolies Enrich the Rich and Distort the Economy?.
He begins by examining the richest man in the world, Bill Gates, and Microsoft, noting that it was not Gates hard work or brilliance, or the superiority of his software, but his government provided monopoly based on IP law that made him today?s Croesus.?
This entry was posted on Thursday, January 29th, 2009 at 3:04 pm and is filed under P2P Public Policy. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site. 
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan 29 07:59:55 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:59:55 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Banks and the Law Radio Radio Four Programme
Message-ID: <176540.10486.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Dear All
?
?
Maybe of interest.
?
??????????????????? http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00h34dc
?
?
?
?
R.Searle???? 


      
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From dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan 29 08:07:24 2009
From: dharao4 at yahoo.co.uk (robert searle)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:07:24 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [GJM] Money A Mirror Image of the Economy
Message-ID: <925547.4298.qm@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Dear All,
?
?????????? J.W. Smiths ebook on money. 
?
?
?
http://www.ied.info/books/money
?
?
R.Searle


      
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From maryrose333 at att.net  Thu Jan 29 10:21:50 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:21:50 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] The American Lunatic Asylum
Message-ID: <008101c98236$15e4a280$41ade780$@net>



-----Original Message-----
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[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 9:51 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] The American Lunatic Asylum


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The American Lunatic Asylum
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11999
by Sherwood Ross
January 24, 2009


If America ever is going to stop making aggressive war, Americans will
first have to get into contact with reality. That's because U.S.
administrations for the past century have periodically frightened the
public out of their collective wits.

And a frightened nation is a malleable nation, one whose people are
susceptible to being led into any struggle. There's usually been some
evil outside force lurking to take away what we have. There was the "Red
Scare" during the Wilson administration and Joe McCarthy's terror
during the Truman and Eisenhower years. President George W. Bush gave fear
a new twist with his "War on Terror" in which innocent nations were
illegally invaded and tens of thousands imprisoned and hundreds of
thousands of innocent people killed. In his speech of September 20, 2001,
Bush claimed terrorists attacked America because they "hate our freedoms:
our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and
assemble and disagree with each other."

Those who believe this whopper will never deal with the reality that we
might just be hated throughout the Middle East because the CIA at
Eisenhower's behest overthrew the democratically elected government of
Iran in 1953. Or that we might be hated for taking Israel's side in its
ongoing efforts to displace the Palestinians. Or for taking Iraq's side
in its war of aggression against Iran and supplying it with poison gas. Or
for subsequently waging an illegal war of aggression against Iraq. The idea
that Muslim extremists attacked America out of envy lacks any connection to
reality, especially when much of the Arab world has long made known its
vehement opposition to U.S. support of Israel.

The Bush regime fanned the fears of Islamic terrorism in the American mind
by making it appear the 2001 anthrax attacks that shut down Congress were
staged by Muslims. One anthrax envelope read "Death to America! Death to
Israel!" Bush press agents leaked stories that the attack emanated from
the Middle East when, in fact, it originated at a U.S. biowarfare complex
in Maryland under management of George W. Bush, commander-in-chief. This
lie helped rush through the Patriot Act and opened the door to a $50
billion spending spree to develop new bioweapons, although experts say the
U.S. is under no threat of such attack. Meanwhile, we have real influenza
epidemics that kill thousands every year that must be prevented and
scientists who tell us they no longer are getting the money to fight. What
do you call a country that ignores realities and arms itself against
fantasies? Try lunatic asylum.

Down through the years our politicians have shamelessly advanced themselves
by playing on the public's fears. George W. Bush is only the most recent
culprit. Presidential campaigner Jack Kennedy, for example, in 1960 falsely
warned Americans of a "missile gap," i.e., that we lagged behind the
Soviets in our ability to deliver nuclear weapons. These fears were
encouraged by the military-industrial complex to pump up spending on atomic
bombs and their delivery systems. Late in his life, the eloquent General
Douglas MacArthur came to this realization: "Our government has kept us
in a perpetual state of fear---kept us in a continuous stampede of
patriotic fervor with the cry of a grave national emergency. Always there
has been some terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that
was going to gobble us up if we did not rally behind it by furnishing the
exorbitant funds demanded."

In the past eight years, the Big Lies have flown thick and fast. Americans
today suffer from a "master race" delusion akin to what Germans
believed in the 1930s. The Neocon's "New American Century" philosophy
posits the U.S. is ordained (Bush believed by god) to provide leadership
and spread democracy around the globe. In this vision, America is the
self-appointed policeman for the planet. Delegates to Republican National
Conventions only have had to hear the phrase "United Nations" to jeer.
This poisoning of the public mind could make it difficult for President
Obama to use the UN effectively just as it made it easy for Bush to sell
his "preventive war" doctrine.

Americans have been conditioned to think the U.S. is always in the right
and its enemies are always in the wrong. A prime example: the POW/MIA flags
that flutter over public buildings everywhere. Americans believe the
Vietnamese held hundreds of U.S. prisoners after the war ended. If so, why
couldn't the Pentagon with its spy satellites that can spot a wooden
nickel from 60,000 feet ever find and rescue them? By claiming they refused
to live up to its obligations, the Vietnamese are made to look like the bad
guys even though we waged a war of aggression in their country and bombed
their cities, not the other way around.

I'm not saying there were no POWs being held illegally, only that the
issue has been framed to inflame the public out of all proportion to
reality. Today, it's the U.S. that imprisons "ghost" POW/MIAs. Only
the victims are Arabs and Muslims. General Paul Kern, who headed an Army
inquiry, told the Senate in 2004 the CIA may be keeping up to 100 "ghost
detainees" at Baghdad's infamous Abu Ghraib. And it has been disclosed
that the U.S. under Bush/Cheney operated a string of secret prisons where
the Red Cross is denied entry. Isn't that illegally holding POW/MIAs? To
accuse others of crimes you are committing raises the suspicion that your
own charges may not be true. It also suggests you might be deluded.

Again, there's our rationale for every defeat. They'll tell you at any
veteran's post we lost in Viet Nam only because "our boys fought with
one hand tied behind their backs" and not because their foes were
worthy---when we dumped more tons of bombs on Viet Nam than we did on all
of Europe in WWII. Such myths are dangerous.

Recall Hitler told Germans they didn't lose WWI because they were
outfought but because they were "sold out by Jews and the Communists"
that made peace behind their backs. So they should fight a new war.
Millions of people the world over saw through Bush's lies about Iraq
being in league with 9/11 terrorists and possessing WMD. The war was
condemned by the Vatican and termed "illegal" by the UN
Secretary-General. But Congress bought the lie that Saddam Hussein, with
his $5 billion military budget, threatened America with its $300 billion
military budget, and voted to attack. Why could the rest of the world see
reality when Americans could not?

Americans have repeatedly subscribed to policies of aggressive war based on
lies and delusions engineered by their own chief executives. An Obama
presidency will not restore peace unless such falsehoods are first exposed
and expunged from the American psyche. Time to open the asylum's doors
and windows and let in the fresh air and sunshine.#

Sherwood Ross is a Miami-based public relations consultant who formerly
worked for the Chicago Daily News and wire services. Reach him at
sherwoodr1 at yahoo.com.




From maryrose333 at att.net  Thu Jan 29 10:40:15 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:40:15 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] Climate Destroyers and Earthlings
	Clash over BAU (business as usual)
Message-ID: <008201c98238$a8b03730$fa10a590$@net>



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Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 10:17 PM
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Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] Climate Destroyers and Earthlings Clash
over BAU (business as usual) 


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Climate Destroyers and Earthlings Clash over BAU (business as usual) 
by Jan Lundberg   
28 January 2009
http://culturechange.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id
=300&Itemid=1

Critical Comment Culture Change Letter #232 - Dinosaurs are telling us we
all have to die for them. Two historic news stories early this week
underscored the clash between (A) defending corporate profits and the U.S.
drive-by lifestyle and (B) actually trying to save the climate. In my town,
the newspaper ironically put the former story on the top, with the latter
right underneath -- the way a rape victim is underneath. Neither of the
stories was page-one news, even though the readers were being hit with the
major confirmation that CO2 buildup is "irreversible."

The top article was "Geography Is Dividing Democrats Over Energy", a New
York Times report by John Broder. In it the most important political
reality on global warming legislation is to be the bicoastal tendencies to
regulate CO2 as opposed to Midwest politicians' lesser willingness to
regulate it. The story was syndicated with alternative headlines, such as
"Some Democrats Seek Slowdown on Energy Policy: Global Warming - Middle
state lawmakers fear further damage to their economies" (and sometimes as a
shorter or altered article).

A false dichotomy is presented to narrow our choices and exclude any
thought of system-change or culture change: "This brown state/green state
clash is likely to encumber any effort to set a mandatory ceiling on the
carbon dioxide emissions blamed as the biggest contributor to global
warming -- something [Mr.] Obama has declared to be one of his highest
priorities." Revealing the priorities of the New York Times, the story
referred to "crucial electoral battlegrounds... that stand to lose the most
from such regulation." Lose? Good grief, must loss be more of an economic
than ecological concept? Without life there's no economy, hello!

While it's significant that California gets "only 20.7 percent of its
electricity from coal and 40 percent from hydroelectric power and renewable
sources... while Ohio drew 86 percent of its electricity from coal..." --
the national economy and its petroleum infrastructure are totally
unsustainable from a peak-oil standpoint, and regulating a slowing of
emissions is no solution for our climate crisis. For, "Even if global
carbon-dioxide levels reverted to preindustrial levels, it still would take
1,000 years or longer for the climate changes already triggered to be
reversed, scientists said Monday." (the CO2 story)

News headlines differ from media outlet to media outlet, even when the text
of the story is identical -- or truncated from the bottom as in the case of
The Portland Oregonian ("Study: CO2 Effects All But Irreversible"). This
national story emanated from the National Academy of Sciences. The main
syndicated report was by the Los Angeles Times' Thomas Maugh II, with the
"Washington Post" included as part of a long-standing news-sharing deal.

National Public Radio covered it and offered text on their website:
"Environment: Global Warming Is Irreversible, Study Says"

The LA Times-Washington Post version on latimes.com, "Climate change has a
firm grip", was buried in that website's Environment section, and was
secondary to an L.A. clean-truck report.

The CO2 story was carried differently as "Study says some global warming
now irreversible" in the San Francisco Chronicle -- it was in the "News"
section rather than "Environment". The latter treatment is as if we can
ignore a "section" of "life" like Sports or the Environment.

Maybe we like to feign surprise so we can keep up our habits to fry the
planet; a year ago the same news was given by the IPCC: "No Stopping
Climate Shift, U.N. Study Says" (also by Thomas H. Maugh II, Feb. 2, 2007)

In the spirit of first things first,

WASHINGTON, Jan. 26 - President Obama is moving quickly to act on the
environmental promises that were a centerpiece of his campaign. But
tackling global warming will be far more difficult - and more costly -
than the new emissions standards for automobiles he ordered with the stroke
of a pen on Monday.

Already, the Congressional Democrats Mr. Obama will need to carry out his
mandate are feuding with one another.

By coincidence or design, most of the policy makers on Capitol Hill and in
the administration charged with shaping legislation to address global
warming come from California or the East Coast, regions that lead the
country in environmental regulation and the push for renewable energy
sources.

That is a problem, says a group of Democratic lawmakers from the Midwest
and Plains States, which are heavily dependent on coal and manufacturing.
The lawmakers have banded together to fight legislation they think might
further damage their economies.

"There's a bias in our Congress and government against manufacturing,
or at least indifference to us, especially on the coasts," said Senator
Sherrod Brown, Democrat of Ohio. "It's up to those of us in the Midwest
to show how important manufacturing is. If we pass a climate bill the wrong
way, it will hurt American jobs and the American economy, as more and more
production jobs go to places like China, where it's cheaper."

This brown state-green state clash is likely to encumber any effort to set
a mandatory ceiling on the carbon dioxide emissions blamed as the biggest
contributor to global warming, something Mr. Obama has declared to be one
of his highest priorities. Mr. Obama has said he intends to press ahead on
such an initiative, despite opposition within his own party in Congress and
divisions among some of his advisers over the timing, scope and cost of
legislation to curb carbon emissions.

The centrist Democrats who urge a slower-paced approach represent states
that are crucial electoral battlegrounds and that stand to lose the most
from such regulation. They say they believe that global warming is a
serious threat and they will support legislation to address the problem -
but not at the expense of their already-strained workers and industries.

These Democrats are concerned, they say, that climate bills will be written
by committees in the House and Senate led by two liberal California
Democrats, Senator Barbara Boxer and Representative Henry A. Waxman, and
shaped by Mr. Obama's team of environmental and energy advisers,
virtually all of whom are from California or the East Coast.

For decades, California has led the nation in environmental regulation,
including the most sweeping effort to address global warming by imposing
mandatory caps on greenhouse gas emissions starting in 2012.

Following California's lead, a group of Northeastern States have created
a partnership known as the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative to control
carbon emissions.

But California and many East Coast States also differ sharply in the extent
to which they depend on coal - a fossil fuel that is a major culprit in
producing carbon emissions. California, for example, derived only 20.7
percent of its electricity from coal and 40 percent from hydroelectric
power and renewable sources in 2005, while Ohio drew 86 percent of its
electricity from coal that year, according to the Department of Energy.
Other states of the Great Lakes and Plains are much more like Ohio than
California in energy usage.

In the space of a single afternoon this month, Ms. Boxer, Mr. Waxman and
the House speaker Nancy Pelosi, another California Democrat, issued
statements declaring their intent to work with Mr. Obama to act quickly on
comprehensive climate and energy legislation, with a goal of passage this
year. Mr. Waxman said he expected to move a climate bill out of his Energy
and Commerce Committee by Memorial Day. Ms. Boxer said "the writing is on
the wall that legislation to combat global warming is coming soon."

Rahm Emanuel, the new White House chief of staff, endorsed the lawmakers'
timetable and said he believed the goal of passage of a broad climate
change bill this year was "realistic," given the substantial Democratic
majorities in the House and Senate.

Mr. Obama and leaders in Congress have endorsed a so-called cap-and-trade
system in which power plant owners and other polluters could meet limits on
heat-trapping gases like carbon dioxide by either reducing emissions on
their own or buying credits from more efficient producers.

Mr. Obama's energy and environmental advisers include Lisa P. Jackson,
the former head of the New Jersey environmental agency who will head the
Environmental Protection Agency; Steven Chu, former director of the
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in California, who is the new
secretary of energy; and Nancy Sutley, former deputy mayor of Los Angeles
for environmental affairs, the new chairwoman of the White House Council on
Environmental Quality.

Carol M. Browner, who will occupy the new post of White House coordinator
for climate and energy policy, is a former head of the E.P.A., a former
director of Florida's environmental agency and was a senior adviser to
former Vice President Al Gore.

The appointees come to office with a mandate from the president to
transform the nation's energy economy and to lead the world in addressing
climate change.

But their ambitions confront a brutal reality of a weak economy, fading
public concern about climate change and serious qualms within their own
party about the costs of taking on global warming and who will pay them.

They will also have to deal with bruised feelings among many Democrats over
the coup Mr. Waxman mounted last November to wrest the gavel of the Energy
and Commerce Committee from its longtime leader, Representative John D.
Dingell, Democrat of Michigan and a longtime champion of the auto industry
and other Midwest manufacturers.

"For us, it's still a big disappointment," said Senator Debbie
Stabenow, Democrat of Michigan, referring to the unseating of Mr. Dingell,
who was pursuing a more moderate climate proposal than those advocated by
Ms. Boxer and Mr. Waxman.

"My message over all is that for us to support what needs to be done in
addressing global warming we need to demonstrate that, in fact, jobs are
created," Ms. Stabenow said. "It's not a theoretical argument. We
have to come up with a policy that makes sense, that is manageable on the
cost end, that creates new technology - and that treats states equitably
and addresses regional differences."

Ms. Stabenow is a leader of the so-called Gang of 10, representing the
coal-dependent states in the middle of the country; the group was formed
after the failure of a Senate global warming bill pushed by Ms. Boxer last
June. The members' goal is to assure that their concerns are met in any
future legislation.

The other original members are Senators Brown of Ohio, John D. Rockefeller
IV of West Virginia, Carl Levin of Michigan, Blanche Lincoln of Arkansas,
Mark Pryor of Arkansas, Jim Webb of Virginia, Evan Bayh of Indiana, Claire
McCaskill of Missouri, and Ben Nelson of Nebraska.

In the fall, six more Democratic senators joined the group: Jeff Bingaman
of New Mexico, Kent Conrad and Byron L. Dorgan of North Dakota, Robert C.
Byrd of West Virginia, Tim Johnson of South Dakota and Ken Salazar of
Colorado.

Mr. Salazar has since left the Senate to become secretary of the interior.

"We will play an important role in the final bill," Ms. Stabenow said.

Representative Edward J. Markey, the Massachusetts Democrat who has been a
leader in Congress on environmental matters for three decades, has been
assigned by Mr. Waxman to write the House's version of global warming
legislation. Mr. Markey said he was very aware of the concerns of
coal-state Democrats.

He noted that Mr. Obama, who comes from Illinois, a coal-dependent state,
had traveled to Ohio last week to speak at a factory that produces parts
for wind turbines.

"Every single wind turbine takes 26 tons of steel to construct," Mr.
Markey said. "A lot of new jobs will be created if we craft a piece of
global warming legislation correctly, and that is our intention."

- - - - -

Climate change has a firm grip
Researchers say that even if nations can get carbon dioxide levels under
control, it would take 1,000 years or longer for the climate changes
already triggered to be reversed.

By Thomas H. Maugh II
January 27, 2009
Even if by some miracle the nations of the world could bring carbon dioxide
levels back to those of the pre-industrial era, it would still take 1,000
years or longer for the climate changes already triggered to be reversed,
scientists said Monday.

The gas already here and the heat that has been absorbed by the ocean will
exert their effects for centuries, according to an analysis published in
the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Over the long haul, the warming will melt the polar icecaps more than had
previously been estimated, raising ocean levels substantially, the report
said.

And changes in rainfall patterns will bring droughts to the American
Southwest, southern Europe, northern Africa and western Australia
comparable to those that caused the 1930s Dust Bowl in the U.S.

"People have imagined that if we stopped emitting carbon dioxide, the
climate would go back to normal in 100 years, 200 years," lead author Susan
Solomon, a senior scientist at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric
Administration, said in a telephone news conference. "That's not true."

The changes will persist until at least the year 3000, said Solomon, who
conducted the study with colleagues in Switzerland and France.

Scientists familiar with the report said it emphasized the need for
immediate action to control emissions.

"As a climate scientist, this was my intuition," said geoscientist Jonathan
T. Overpeck of the University of Arizona. "But they have done a really good
job of working through the details and . . . make a case that the situation
is more dire than we thought if we don't act quickly and aggressively to
curb carbon dioxide emissions."

Kevin Trenberth, head of climate analysis at the National Center for
Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colo., said the persistence of climate
change caused by global warming was "poorly appreciated by policymakers and
the general public, and it is real."

"The policy relevance is clear: We need to act sooner, even if there is
some doubt about exactly what will happen, because by the time the public
and policymakers really realize the changes are here, it is far too late to
do anything about it," Trenberth said.

The report came as President Obama ordered the Environmental Protection
Agency to consider allowing states the right to enact auto emission
standards stricter than federal rules.

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton also is expected to appoint a new
envoy for climate change to bolster the administration's credentials in
environmental policy.

The slowness with which ocean water circulates is central to the new
findings. Carbon dioxide is primarily removed from the atmosphere through
absorption into seawater, an incredibly slow process because of the time it
takes for surface water saturated with the gas to be replaced by deeper
water that can further absorb carbon dioxide.

That gas accounts for about half of the global warming caused by greenhouse
gases, but the other gases are removed from the atmosphere more quickly.
Thus, the long-term influence of carbon dioxide will have the greatest
effect on climate change, the report said.

Moreover, heat absorbed by the ocean is released slowly, and will continue
to contribute to global warming even if the concentration of greenhouse
gases should decline, the authors said.

Solomon said in a statement that absorption of carbon dioxide and release
of heat -- one acting to cool the Earth and the other to warm it -- would
"work against each other to keep temperatures almost constant for more than
1,000 years."

Geoscientist Jorge L. Sarmiento of Princeton University said, "This is
really a wake-up call about the seriousness of this issue."

The study looked particularly at ocean levels and rainfall. The team found
that by thermal expansion of ocean water alone, sea levels will rise from
1.3 to 3.2 feet if carbon dioxide climbs from the current level of 385
parts per million to 600 parts per million, and twice that if it peaks at
1,000 parts per million.

Melting of the icecaps could increase sea levels even more, inundating
low-lying islands and continental shorelines, but the effects are too
uncertain to quantify, Solomon said.

Reductions in rainfall would also last centuries, the report said,
decreasing drinking water supplies, increasing fire frequency and
devastating dry-season farming of wheat and maize.

Email the writer at thomas.maugh at latimes.comThis e-mail address is being
protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it

His article is at latimes.com

"No Stopping Climate Shift, U.N. Study Says", by Thomas H. Maugh II, Feb.
2, 2007:
articles.latimes.com

* * * * *

First story: "Geography Is Dividing Democrats Over Energy" by New York
Times' John Broder:
nytimes.com 



From maryrose333 at att.net  Thu Jan 29 11:22:14 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:22:14 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] Russia And China Slam U.S.
	Economic System, Blaming It For Financial Crisis
Message-ID: <000301c9823e$86d159e0$94740da0$@net>



-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 10:33 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] Russia And China Slam U.S. Economic System,
Blaming It For Financial Crisis


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Russia And China Slam U.S. Economic System, Blaming It For Financial Crisis
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/28/russia-and-china-slam-us_n_162007.h
tml
Huffington Post/WSJ/NYT   |  Marcus Baram   |   January 28, 2009 05:25 PM

The leaders of both Russian and China slammed the U.S. economic system,
blaming it for leading the world into the current financial crisis.

Speaking at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, Russian Prime
Minister Vladimir Putin and Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao both expressed their
desire for cooperation with President Obama but attacked the capitalism of
Wall Street.

In blunt language, Putin said it was "dangerous" for the world to rely on
the U.S. dollar and both leaders called for major reserve currencies to be
better reguated.

The Wall Street Journal reports:

    The Russian leader mocked U.S. businessmen who he said had boasted at
last year's Davos meeting of the U.S. economy's fundamental strength and
"cloudless" prospects. "Today, investment banks, the pride of Wall Street,
have virtually ceased to exist," he said...


    While Mr. Wen never named the U.S., his critique of its failings was as
sweeping as Mr. Putin's. The financial crisis, he said, was "attributable
to inappropriate macroeconomic policies of some economies and their
unsustainable model of development characterized by prolonged low savings
and high consumption; excessive expansion of financial institutions in
blind pursuit of profit" -- and other excesses.

Putin's other remarks were more conciliatory, focusing on his desire for
cooperation with Obama on disarmament, energy security and the economy.

The New York Times reports:

    "We can't afford being isolationist or economically selfish," Mr. Putin
said. Describing the world financial crisis as a "perfect storm," he added:
"We are all in the same boat."





From maryrose333 at att.net  Thu Jan 29 17:07:33 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 16:07:33 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] Gaza detainees suffer from
	'inhuman' Israeli actions
Message-ID: <002d01c9826e$c2f57750$48e065f0$@net>

This message is noteworthy in that it details "Israeli human rights groups"
demanding inquiry into *inhuman* treatment meted out to Palestinians taken
prisoner; denoting that even within Israel itself there is concern for the
actions of other Israeli.    

-----Original Message-----
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[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 3:15 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] Gaza detainees suffer from 'inhuman'
Israeli actions


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Gaza detainees suffer from 'inhuman' Israeli actions
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=30092
Human rights groups accuse Israel of 'shocking' treatment of
Palestinian prisoners in Gaza.

 
TEL AVIV - Seven Israeli human rights groups demanded an inquiry on
Wednesday into the "inhuman" treatment meted out to Palestinians taken
prisoner during Israel's offensive on the Gaza Strip.

Evidence collected from detainees provided a "shocking portrayal of the
harsh, inhuman and degrading conditions in which Palestinian prisoners were
held during the initial days of their incarceration," they said in a
statement.

"Many detainees -- minors as well as adults -- were held for many hours,
sometimes for days, in pits dug in the ground, exposed to bitter cold and
harsh weather, handcuffed and blindfolded.

"These pits lacked basic sanitary facilities ... detainees went hungry.

"Some of the detainees were held near tanks and in combat areas, in gross
violation of international humanitarian law."

The groups submitted a complaint to Israel's attorney general and the
military judge advocate general, urging an independent and comprehensive
investigation.

The statement also spoke of "incidents involving extreme violence and
humiliation by soldiers and interrogators" and added that separate
complaints would follow about that.

"Israel's indifference to its moral and legal obligations to detainees is
particularly objectionable in view of the fact that official spokesmen have
repeatedly declared that the IDF prepared at length for the Gaza
operation," said Bana Shoughry-Badarne, director of the legal department of
the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel.

"It seems that, during these lengthy preparations, the basic rights of the
detainees and captives were completely forgotten, rights that must be
protected regardless of the detainees' legal status and whether or not
their incarceration is justified."

The statement did not give any figures for the numbers of arrests, but the
army reported making dozens of members of the democratically elected Hamas
government prisoner during the 22-day assault that ended January 18 with
more than 1,300 Palestinians dead, mainly civilians.

The other groups involved were the Association for Civil Rights in Israel,
Hamoked: Centre for the Defence of the Individual, Physicians for Human
Rights, B'Tselem, Yesh Din and Adalah.



From maryrose333 at att.net  Thu Jan 29 17:11:26 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 16:11:26 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] Obama: Big Wall Street Bonuses
	'Shameful'
Message-ID: <002e01c9826f$4d8ce5b0$e8a6b110$@net>

Are things perhaps changing? 

-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 1:56 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] Obama: Big Wall Street Bonuses 'Shameful'


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Obama: Big Wall Street Bonuses 'Shameful'
January 29, 2009; 4:03 PM ET
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/economy-watch/2009/01/obama_big_wall_street
_bonuses.html?hpid=topnews

President Obama directly delivered his message on executive bonuses to Wall
Street moments ago from the White House: Stop them now.

"I saw an article today that indicated Wall Street bankers had given
themselves $20 billion worth of bonuses ($18.4 billion, actually, according
to New York comptroller)," Obama said. "That is the height of
irresponsibility. It is shameful."

Obama said the bonus figure was the same Wall Street bankers gave
themselves in 2004, when times were going well.

"Part of what we're going to need is for the folks on Wall Street who are
asking for help to show some restraint, some discipline and some sense of
responsibility," Obama said. "The American people understand we've got a
big hole we've got to dig ourselves out of. They don't like people digging
a bigger hole even as they're being asked to fill it up," he said, working
both ends of the metaphor.

"There will be a time for them to make profits and a time for them to get
bonuses," Obama said. "This is not that time."

Even as Obama spoke, financial institutions trading on Wall Street lost
share price.

He added a stern warning: "That is the message I intend to send directly to
them and expect Secretary [Tim] Geithner to send to them. He already had to
pull back one institution that had gone forward with a multi-million dollar
jet plane purchase while receiving [bailout] funds," confirming earlier
reports that Geithner had told CItigroup -- which has received government
bailout money -- to pull the plug on a $50 million jet purchase.

"They should know better," Obama said. "We shouldn't have to make them do
that."

This is far-reaching ground Obama and Geithner are treading on -- telling
private companies where they may set their bonuses and other compensation.

-- 





From maryrose333 at att.net  Thu Jan 29 17:12:40 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 16:12:40 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] Obama Signs First Piece of
	Legislation Into Law
Message-ID: <002f01c9826f$7a3a9490$6eafbdb0$@net>



-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 2:04 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] Obama Signs First Piece of Legislation Into
Law


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Obama Signs First Piece of Legislation Into Law
Lilly Ledbetter Act Makes It Easier for Workers to Sue for Pay
Discrimination
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/29/AR2009012901
887.html?hpid=topnews
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, January 29, 2009; 2:49 PM

President Obama this morning signed a law that expands the time frame in
which workers can sue for discrimination they have experienced based on
gender, race, national origin or religion. 

The legislation -- the first Obama has signed since becoming president nine
days ago -- makes clear that workers may bring a lawsuit for up to six
months after they receive any paycheck that they allege is discriminatory.
It is named for Lilly Ledbetter, who after years as a manager at Goodyear
Tire & Rubber discovered she was being paid less than her male
counterparts. She filed suit and won a jury verdict in 2003. But the
lawsuit was deemed invalid because it wasn't filed within six months of
when the discrimination -- unknown to Ledbetter at the time -- began.

Ledbetter, now 70, became an icon for Obama during his campaign for the
White House and was escorted into the East Room by the president this
morning for the signing ceremony. Obama led a prolonged round of applause
for her as they stood together at the podium before a room full of
legislators and fair-pay advocates.

"We are upholding one of this nation's first principles: that we are all
created equal and each deserve a chance to pursue our own version of
happiness," Obama said before signing the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay
Restoration Act, which effectively nullifies the 2007 Supreme Court
decision.

"While this bill bears her name, Lilly knows this story isn't just about
her," Obama said. "It's the story of women across this country still
earning just 78 cents for every dollar men earn -- women of color even less
--which means that today, in the year 2009, countless women are still
losing thousands of dollars in salary, income and retirement savings over
the course of a lifetime."
ad_icon

The bill will not allow Ledbetter to claim lost wages or the $360,000 she
was awarded by a U.S. District Court. But at a reception in the State
Dining Room hosted by first lady Michelle Obama after the signing,
Ledbetter said she was "honored and humbled" by her role in its creation
and passage.

"Goodyear will never have to pay me what it cheated me out of. In fact, I
will never see a cent from my case," she said. "But with the president's
signature today, I have an even richer reward" -- that future generations
of women will have a better chance at fair pay.

"That's what makes this fight worth fighting," said Ledbetter, of
Jacksonville, Ala. "That's what made this fight one we had to win."

Michelle Obama, a Harvard-trained lawyer who has said she will focus on
work-family balance as first lady, praised Ledbetter's courage in waging
her 10-year legal battle. "She knew unfairness when she saw it, and was
willing to do something about it because it was the right thing to do --
plain and simple," Obama said.

The law is an early emblem of the more liberal tilt the federal government
is likely to take now that Democrats control both houses of Congress as
well as the White House.

Among those enthusiastically looking on as the bill was signed were the
first lady;  House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), whom Obama praised for
leading passage of the bill in the House; Secretary of State Hillary Rodham
Clinton, whose historic bid to become the first U.S. female president ended
when Obama secured the Democratic nomination;  Sens. Barbara Mikulski
(D-Md.) and  Olympia J. Snowe (R-Maine); and D.C.  Del. Eleanor Holmes
Norton (D).

Snowe, the lead Republican sponsor of the bill in the Senate, said in a
statement its passage "recognized an issue that is fundamental to America
-- to the way we see ourselves . . . to the standards by which our country
abides: equality, fairness, and justice."

Ledbetter endorsed Obama's candidacy and spoke at the Democratic National
Convention in August. She was one of 16 guests on the train that carried
the president-elect from Philadelphia to Washington before his swearing-in.
Hours after becoming president, Obama danced with her at the Neighborhood
Ball. 

Obama gave her one of the pens he used to sign the bill as a keepsake.
"This one's for Lilly," he said.

Ledbetter worked for Goodyear Tire & Rubber in Gadsden, Ala., for 19 years.
Several months before she retired in 1998 as an area manager, Ledbetter
found an anonymous note in her mailbox at work, tipping her off that she
was being paid less than the men who held the same job. That year, she
filed an EEOC complaint and received a letter from the commission saying
that she had grounds to sue.

She won a jury verdict in U.S. district court in 2003, but Goodyear
appealed. Two years later, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit,
in a ruling that departed from those of nine other federal appellate
courts, sided with Goodyear, saying Ledbetter's lawsuit was filed years too
late.

She took the case to the Supreme Court, which upheld the appellate court's
view in a 5 to 4 opinion written by its newest member, Justice Samuel A.
Alito, a Bush appointee. At the time, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who was
appointed by President Clinton, gave a rare oral dissent, saying she hoped
Congress would reverse what the court had done.

The House passed a bill that year to do just that. But Senate Republicans
blocked the legislation last spring on a close procedural vote.

Obama said he was signing the bill this morning not only in honor of
Ledbetter, "but in honor of those who came before her. Women like my
grandmother who worked in a bank all her life, and even after she hit that
glass ceiling, kept getting up and giving her best every day. . . .

"And I sign this bill for my daughters, and all those who will come after
us," Obama added, "because I want them to grow up in a nation that values
their contributions, where there are no limits to their dreams and they
have opportunities their mothers and grandmothers never could have
imagined." 



From maryrose333 at att.net  Thu Jan 29 18:19:39 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 17:19:39 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] Recovery, when it comes,
	will be slow and weak
Message-ID: <005501c98278$d5a11580$80e34080$@net>

No easy answers anywhere as what has obviously been a highly unsustainable
and artificially-constructed economy, that has bounced from bubble to bubble
for decades if not centuries, collapses around us. And, while millions
suffer from the collapse, the question cannot help but be asked as to
whether we, as a society, want to go back to more of the same. Perhaps it is
time to move on to something new.           

-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 3:52 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] Recovery, when it comes, will be slow and
weak


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Recovery, when it comes, will be slow and weak
Consumer spending, buoyed by lending spree, will take years to restore
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28917922/

By John W. Schoen
Senior producer msnbc.com
updated 1 hour, 24 minutes ago

As the government advances historic measures to revive growth, the data
point to an economy that is getting worse. It's far from clear the
government actions - including a massive stimulus program and major
intervention in the banking system - will stem the slide and restart the
economy by year-end.

But even if it does, analysts say the recovery - when it comes - will
likely be weak and slow.

The latest reading on the economy due out Friday is expected to show that
the gross domestic product shrank at a rate of nearly 6 percent in the
fourth quarter, which would be the worst result since 1982. That slide has
spilled over into the new year, and there are signs it may be picking up
speed.

With home prices continuing to fall and layoffs rising, the sharp pullback
in consumer spending continues to feed that contraction.

"The biggest force on the demand side of the world economy - the
multiyear compression of the American consumer - is going to be
ongoing," said Stephen Roach, Morgan Stanley's Asia chairman. "This
trend has only just begun."

The ongoing retrenchment by American consumers makes it unlikely spending
will return to pre-recession levels for many years. During the height of
the lending boom, consumer spending surged to roughly 71 percent of gross
domestic product - up from just 66 percent in 1990.

Since much of that spending was based on unsustainable borrowing, the
post-recession economy will remain smaller until that shortfall can be made
up from other sources of demand. With the rest of the world also in
recession, at the moment, it's hard to see where those other sources of
demand will come from, analysts say. 

The root cause of the recession - the collapse of the housing industry
- shows no signs of letup. Prices fell by a record 18 percent in October
2008, according to the latest Standard & Poor's Case-Shiller index, and
analysts say prices could continue falling well into next year. A pickup in
existing-home sales in December was due largely to homes being bought at
cut-rate prices in foreclosure.

"In fact the downdraft is probably gaining steam," said Michael
Englund, chief economist with Action Economics. "We are assuming going
into 2009 we may be seeing some bottom, but we certainly are not seeing any
sign yet in any of the reported data."

The homebuilding industry - a key driver of the economy - is suffering
one of its worst downturns in history. On Thursday, the Commerce Department
reported that the pace of new home sales fell to an annual rate of just
331,000. Even after dropping 76 percent from a peak pace of 1.38 million
homes sold in July 2005, analysts say they don't see a bottom yet.

"(New home) sales will continue to drop because of falling prices for
existing homes, tighter credit and a deteriorating economy," according to
Patrick Newport, an economist with IHS Global Insight.

That deteriorating economy has also brought a massive wave of layoffs that
also shows no signs of letup. The Labor Department reported Thursday that a
record 4.85 million people were collecting regular unemployment benefits in
the latest week. That doesn't include about 1.7 million people getting
benefits through an extension passed last summer; that puts the total
number of people on unemployment closer to 6.5 million. Millions more are
working reduced hours or have exhausted jobless benefits. 

All this has brought a sharp pullback in consumer spending - the
lifeblood of the U.S. economy. To make matter worse, it appears that
businesses are also cutting spending. Orders from the private sector for
durable goods - from delivery vans to office computers - fell 5 percent
in December. Analysts expect the fourth-quarter GDP numbers to show a big
pullback in business spending.

So the government has become the consumer of last resort. Congress and the
White House spent this week scrambling to enact an $819 billion package of
tax cuts and government spending on everything from repairing crumbling
roads and bridges to aid to cash-strapped states facing jobs cuts if they
don't get help soon.

But pouring $800 billion into an economy will have only a limited impact
without a healthy banking system. That has prompted the White House to
ready a new plan to shore up banks battered by losses related to "toxic
assets" backed by real estate and consumer loans. The latest proposal -
setting up a giant, government-run "bad bank" to buy up these assets
still faces the thorny question that stymied the original $700 billion
Troubled Asset Relief Program: How do you decide how much the government
should pay for assets that no one wants?

Despite general agreement that these investments will be worth something
when the economic and credit markets recover, no one wants to buy them
today, so there is no market price. The hope is that taking these bad
assets off the banking industry's books will spur more lending. 


But the plan comes with two big risks. If the government pays too much,
history will eventually record that taxpayer dollars were squandered in the
biggest boondoggle ever. If the government pays too little, that price
becomes a hard "market price" - which banks are required to use when
they "mark to market" the value of these assets. That could bring a
huge wave of writedowns that forces much of the banking industry into
insolvency.

"We have consistently been wrong in valuing these assets," said Joseph
Stiglitz, a Nobel-winning Columbia University economist. "The private
sector won't touch them with a 10-foot pole. If we had listened to these
guys a few months ago and taken the assets off of their books then, we
would not have had the massive losses that we're seeing in the banks' books
today." 

Some economists say these two measures won't work without a third
critical component: government intervention in the housing market to stop
the ongoing wave of foreclosures. Each new home lost puts further downward
pressure on prices and puts a bigger damper on consumer spending.

Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., head of the House Financial Services Committee,
has proposed devoting as much as $100 billion of the remaining TARP funds
to slow foreclosures.

The hope is that with the banking system on a better footing and hundreds
of billions of fresh government spending, the economy will begin to right
itself in the second half of the year.

But even if it works, the plan likely won't restart private-sector hiring
until well into next year - typical of the "jobless recoveries" that
have followed the last two recessions. Even after economic indicators begin
turning upward again, business managers want to make sure the recovery is
sustainable before bringing workers back on their payrolls. 




From maryrose333 at att.net  Thu Jan 29 18:22:23 2009
From: maryrose333 at att.net (mary rose)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 17:22:23 -0800
Subject: [GJM] FW: [globalnetnews-summary] Despite billions,
	banks still teeter on the brink
Message-ID: <005601c98279$37989510$a6c9bf30$@net>

Trying to understand the problem. 

-----Original Message-----
From: globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net
[mailto:globalnetnews-summary-owner at lists.riseup.net] On Behalf Of
TradingPostPaul
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 4:03 PM
To: globalnetnews-summary at lists.riseup.net
Subject: [globalnetnews-summary] Despite billions, banks still teeter on the
brink


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Despite billions, banks still teeter on the brink
Wall Street waits on Obama, but no clear solution to the crisis exists
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28779788/
updated 4:48 p.m. MT, Wed., Jan. 21, 2009

NEW YORK - Wall Street is losing faith in Washington's efforts to fix the
financial crisis. As bank losses pile up and bank stocks plunge, investors
have an urgent question for the new Obama administration: What's the plan?

Timothy Geithner, Obama's pick for treasury secretary, had few answers as
he began confirmation hearings Wednesday. He told lawmakers that two goals
were to "get credit flowing again" and overhaul the $700 billion bailout,
but he offered few details.

There's a lot riding on the new administration. Several of the largest U.S.
banks, saddled with soured mortgage-backed assets, are edging toward the
danger zone despite injections of billions of dollars from the government
last year

At the same time, the recession is gathering force, chewing up jobs by the
hundreds of thousands and ruining many consumer and business loans that
were once thought to carry little risk.

The first half of the federal bailout came with no requirement that the
banks lend more. But even keeping the cash as a cushion hasn't stopped
banks from sliding toward the precipice.

"The size of the problem is growing faster than the banks' ability to
handle it," said Joe Battipaglia, market strategist at Stifel Nicolaus.
"We're halfway through the bailout money, and the banks are in worse shape
than they were six months ago."

Investors expect Obama's team to consider a range of options, including
pumping more money into banks and creating a government entity to buy up
bad bank assets so they'll start lending again.

But those prospects all raise troubling questions: Would stockholders be
wiped out? How much taxpayer money would ultimately be needed? What could
happen if the government takes an even bigger role in the banking system?
And perhaps the biggest unknown: Would a bigger bailout get banks to start
lending again and help pull the country out of recession?

For now, the focus is simply on keeping the banks alive.

Experts say household names like Citigroup and Bank of America, which have
already received two government cash infusions apiece - will need even
more to offset future losses and stay afloat.

The fear is that both banks are so big, so blended into the global
financial system, that their collapse could trigger a catastrophe.

The most troubled banks are "going to definitely go down" without more
government help, said Jonathan Macey, a law professor at Yale University
who wrote a book about a bailout of Sweden's banking system during the
1990s.

"And they may go down with it," he added. "The pace of these bank losses is
outrunning the infusions by the government."

Sheila Bair, chairman of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., sought to
allay those worries Wednesday in an interview with The Associated Press.
Still, she acknowledged investors' concerns.

"There's a lot of fear out there," Bair said. "We're going to work through
this. It's going to be hard. It's going to take time. But we will work
through it."

In the meantime, investors are agonizing. Citigroup's stock fell 20 percent
to below $3 a share Tuesday. Bank of America shares tumbled 29 percent.
Both banks rebounded some Wednesday, but experts say their troubles are far
from over.

So why hasn't the bailout worked?

Experts say one big problem is it hasn't addressed the root cause of the
trouble: the mortgages and other bad assets sitting on the banks' books.

When the government announced the bailout three months ago, the plan was to
buy those bad assets so banks could start lending again. But that approach
was quickly scrapped, partly over concerns it would take too long to work.

Plan B, injecting banks with cash, hasn't worked as Wall Street had hoped.

The government has so far provided $192.3 billion to 257 large and small
financial institutions in 42 states and Puerto Rico. But banks are mainly
sitting on the money, not ramping up lending.

"The capital injections haven't worked," said Edward Yardeni, an
independent market analyst. "It's been like giving blood thinner to a
patient who needs to have their wounds clotted. The bleeding hasn't
stopped."

Some lawmakers want to force banks to boost lending if they accept taxpayer
money, but none of the leading plans