[GJM] Replying to Peter Challen

[Peter Challen]

Gentle and firm indeed - the creative sarcasm is excused !

Peter


On 16/01/2008, Rodney Shakespeare <rodney.shakespeare1 at btinternet.com>
wrote:
>
> Dear Ashenopolitus,
>
> It is always a pleasure to correspond with educated, open-minded and
> expert
> people like your good self.
>
> 1.  Where is the whopper when  I say the banking system creates money out
> of
> nothing and you say exactly the same?  Does your education and
> open-mindedness include being logical?  Is Steven Consilio being unfair in
> implictly accusing you of Orwellian double-think (the ability to hold two
> mutually exclusive ideas simultaneously)?
>
> 2.  Where is the whopper when I say that the banks do not create enough
> money for the repayment of interest?  I am sure that you can explain where
> in the process the banks create the money for the interest.
>
> 3.  Please display your expertise further in explaining your statement
> that,
> when interest is repaid, it is cancelled.
>
> 4. Please also explain how banks pay their employees etc if the interest
> the banks receive is cancelled.
>
> 5.  I am fascinated by your comments on riba/interest and the Qu'ran.  I
> have contact with many Islamic scholars and  the consensus is undoubtedly
> that interest is riba and that in ancient usage 'usury' generally refers
> to
> riba.  The modern usage of the word 'usury' (meaning 'excessive interest')
> is another matter.
>
> 6.  I am also completely fascinated by who you are and what interests you
> are (attempting) to represent.
>
>
> Rodney Shakespeare
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Myro Ashenopolitus" <new_economics at yahoo.com>
> To: <discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 4:40 PM
> Subject: [GJM] Replying to Peter Challen
>
>
> > Unfortunately, Peter, there are some whoppers from
> > both Shakespeare and Yaseen in the first half of the
> > program that will turn off educated and open minded
> > people to the proposed solutions.
> >
> > For example, Shakespeare's assertion that "one of the
> > problems of creating out of nothing is that it creates
> > enough money for the principal of the loan but not
> > enough for the interest."
> >
> > And Yaseen's assertion that "the Quran condemns
> > categorically usury, or interest."
> >
> > First, to address Shakespeare's assertion:
> >
> > We say that banks create money because they credit
> > deposit accounts when they create loans.  The ability
> > and propensity to transfer deposit balances from
> > person to person in transactions is what makes deposit
> > accounts effectively money in today's economy.  So,
> > when loans are granted, money is being created.  And,
> > when loans are repaid, together with interest, money
> > is being canceled.
> >
> > But there is a reciprocal monetary flow from the banks
> > when they make payments for ordinary business
> > expenses, salaries and wages to their employees,
> > dividends to their stockholders, etc., where they also
> > credit deposit account balances, which is additional
> > to loans in the creation of money.  This puts money
> > into circulation not deriving from loans that is
> > available to pay interest to the banks in payment for
> > financial services rendered.
> >
> > Now, to Yaseen's assertion:
> >
> > The ancient scriptures originally written in Semitic
> > languages used two words that were erroneously
> > translated or interpreted as "usury."
> >
> > A modern Islamic scholar in the United States writes
> > this:
> >
> > http://www.submission.org/islam/interest-usury.html
> >
> > "The Quran forbids usury, not interest. Quite a few
> > states in USA have laws against usury. Usury is
> > defined as excessive interest. A Dictionary defines
> > usury as 'an excessive or inordinate premium for the
> > use of money borrowed',  'extortionate interest', or
> > 'the practice of taking exorbitant or excessive
> > interest.' The Arabic language also makes distinction
> > between interest (Fa'eda) and usury (Reba). The Quran
> > forbids Reba or usury."
> >
> > Which is perfectly consistent with the modern Jewish
> > and Christian perspectives on the matter:
> >
> > http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/jones.usury
> >
> > "John Calvin's letter on usury of 1545 made it clear
> > that when Christ said 'lend hoping for nothing in
> > return,' He meant that we should help the poor freely.
> > Following the rule of equity, we should judge people
> > by their circumstances, not by legal definitions.
> > Humanist that he was, Calvin knew there were two
> > Hebrew words translated as 'usury.' One, neshek, meant
> > 'to bite'; the other, tarbit, meant 'to take
> > legitimate increase.' Based on these distinctions,
> > Calvin argued that only 'biting' loans were forbidden.
> > Thus, one could lend at interest to business people
> > who would make a profit using the money. To the
> > working poor one could lend without interest, but
> > expect the loan to be repaid. To the impoverished one
> > should give without expecting repayment."
> > -
> >
> > Myro
> >
> >
> > ---------------original message-----------------
> >
> > Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:23:12 +0000
> > From: "Peter Challen" <peterchallen at googlemail.com>
> > To: discussion at globaljusticemovement.net
> > Subject: Re: [GJM] An excellent programme
> >
> > I've reached the half-way stage of the programme
> > recommended below and use the 'break' to add my
> > recommendation to this sanguine critique of a complex
> > situation - a remarkable bit of broadcasting.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > On 10/01/2008, Rodney Shakespeare
> > <rodney.shakespeare1 at btinternet.com> wrote:
> >
> > Dear All.
> >
> > Alright, I know I should not say this (because I am
> > one of the speakers with Moeen Yaseen of
> > Globalvision2000) but Global Money Crisis: Just Where
> > Does the Buck Stop? is an excellent programme.  Moeen
> > is tremendous!!
> >
> > At last we have managed to put across on television
> > some analysis of what is wrong with the global economy
> > and also put across some idea of the GJM solution.
> >
> > To see the programe:- go to www.Presstv.com then
> > (left-hand side) Programs then The Agenda then Global
> > Money Crisis: -- the programme on Monday, 9th January,
> >
> > 2008
> >
> > Rodney Shakespeare.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
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> > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
>
>
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