[GJM] Two more programmes -- causes of collapse.

[Steve Nieman]

Steve,

I agree with you in many areas about profits being detrimental like  
interest.

I think the ownership principles of binary economics fits nicely into  
new merging concepts like open capital, espoused by Chris Cook.  See:  
http://www.opencapital.net/.

Among other financial techniques, open capital rewards corporate  
stakeholders using wealth created inside the business only.  It does  
not use interest or profit, per say.  Income is grown by wearing more  
hats in the enterprise.  Also through stable and reasonable growth.

At Downwind Corp and ACTIPATE LLC, we are using these concepts in a  
real economic enterprise.  We've been in business for only two years,  
so it's too early to tell how things will go.

The Center for Economic and Social Justice also supports "just  
profits", which is part of their Justice Based Management training  
system for corporate stakeholders.  When you properly organize the  
tripartite of workers-customers-stockholders/investors, and if this  
organization is based on spiritual behavioral training, I think you  
could arrive at a just, co-operative mix.

We won't know until these things are tried.  Chris Cook is also  
involved in many interesting economic enterprises that do NOT include  
excessive or mindless profits –– and certainly not usury.  He is also  
working to preserve currencies, which are currently being wrecked by  
monopoly capitalism.

Regards,
Steve Nieman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On Jan 7, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Steve Consilvio wrote:

>
> On MondayJan 7, 2008, at 7:10 PM, discussion- 
> request at globaljusticemovement.net wrote:
>
> Rodney wrote:
>
>> the most important purpose of binary economics as it has developed  
>> is to correct the underlying causes not only of poverty but of the  
>> huge economic cycles.
>
>> The basic cause for the cycles is the issuing of interest-bearing  
>> credit
>
>> A new paradigm is a new paradigm and it requires to be examined,  
>> and understood,  in its own terms.
>
>
> Thank you for responding Rodney.
>
> I agree with the purpose.
>
> I agree interest-bearing credit is important to understand as a  
> "problem" and not as an "opportunity," which is how it is usually  
> regarded and taught/indoctrinated.
>
> The new paradigm thingy I don't think you have right.
>
> I have the new paradigm, not you.  Let me state it simply so that  
> it is clear:
> The profit on goods is the same as the profit on money.  <--- 
> mathematically, ALL PROFIT, causes the concentration in wealth to  
> occur.  Poverty should be understood as the inverse of the  
> concentration of wealth.  One person gains and another person loses.
>
> The cycles of boom and bust are simply the (macro) mechanisms of  
> this concentration expressing themselves.  The guy who goes "bust"  
> sells his stuff cheap, and the rich get richer.  The guy who bought  
> it eventually goes "bust" too, and so the wealth slowly continues  
> to concentrate.  This is helped along by the fiction of  
> corporations, but the effect was the same even in agrarian economies.
>
> The "mark-up" of interest is the same as the "mark-up" of profit.   
> Taxes and philanthropy drive the same cycle, before someone can  
> "give" they must first "take."
>
> The real world is a zero sum game.  There is only so much land,  
> cars, iPods, etc., in existence, but mathematically the numbers are  
> infinite.  Adding a dollar of interest is the same as adding a  
> dollar of profit.  Inflation = Profit + Interest.  It is a vicious  
> circle, one drives the other.  Consider, if I pay less interest  
> then I make more profit.  If I pay more interest then I make less  
> profit.  Inflation goes up either way, with each transaction  
> between the buyer and the seller.  It doesn't matter who wins or  
> loses on a specific transaction, the inflation is added to the pot  
> regardless.
>
> The more transactions there are, the faster the rate of inflation.   
> With everybody using credit cards, there is now a third hand in  
> every transaction, and other indirect hands  (printers, processors,  
> mail, hardware, etc.)  One apple changes hands, and twelve people  
> profit.  The cost of the apple HAS to include the profit for all  
> twelve partners to the sale, otherwise the seller can't profit  
> himself.  The buyer is screwed, so he has to go sell something to  
> cover the cost of the apple; the next item will have the profit of  
> 13 people embedded into it, because presumably he has consumed the  
> apple.
>
> The math we are using makes buying and selling wonderful on paper;  
> everybody gets to profit.  But it also makes consumption  
> impossible.  The rich get crushed by these forces the same as the  
> poor.  A snapshot reveals the rich and poor exist, but a movie  
> would reveal that the faces are changing places constantly.  Ford  
> Motors was once rich, then it became rich primarily by financing  
> their cars, and now they are broke.  They moved through all the  
> stages.  They expanded to try to avoid problems, buy buying  
> companies that were going "bust," but it is impossible to avoid the  
> forces that one creates.  All profit returns as an expense.
>
> Capitalism can't work because it relies on profits.  Socialism  
> can't work because it relies on taxes.  Philanthropy can't work  
> because it relies on profit somewhere.   Because binary economics  
> is still based on ownership and profit, it cannot avoid the  
> inevitable: inflation and the concentration of wealth.  Eliminating  
> interest and banking is simply not enough of a change to make a  
> difference.  Unfortunately, the problem is bigger than you realize.
>
> Don't let that worry you though.  :-)  A problem defined is a  
> problem solved.
>
> peace,
> Steve Consilvio
> www.behappyandfree.com
>
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