[GJM] REPORT on SYSTEMS WORK for LETSlinkUK - draft 2

[chris cook]

Sorry, It seemed to be cc'd far beyond the trustee's?
 
C> Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 16:47:00 +0100> To: cojock at hotmail.com> From: Discussion at globaljusticemovement.net> Subject: Re: FW: REPORT on SYSTEMS WORK for LETSlinkUK - draft 2> > Please don't do that. It was a draft for trustees.> if you've got something to add, send it back.> ..M> > > > >Hi M> >> >I forwarded your missive to Ian Grigg and cc'd it to Todd Boyle.> >> >Ian's comments follow.> >> >See you soon.> >> >C> >> >> Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:04:04 +0100> >> From: iang at iang.org> >> To: cojock at hotmail.com> >> CC: tboyle at rosehill.net; toddboyle at yahoo.com; martinhbramwell at yahoo.com> >> Subject: Re: FW: REPORT on SYSTEMS WORK for LETSlinkUK - draft 2> >>> >> Hi Chris> >>> >>> >>> >> chris cook wrote:> >> > Hi Ian> >> >> >> > This fyi from Mary Fee and the lets community etc> >> >> >> > I also cc'd Todd, but just in case it bounces, could you forward?> >> >> >> > There's some interesting convergence here.> >>> >>> >> Quick comments below. Basic problem is that they are still> >> looking at the front end, and imagining that the backend> >> just pops into existence without intervention.> >>> >>> >> > Also check out> >> >> >> > www.c4-world.com <http://www.c4-world.com>> >> >> >> > who are Danes doing interesting work, and are very well resourced. In> >> > the short term they will be implementing in proprietary software, but> >> > that's purely transitional.> >> >> >> > The requirement for an open source "Universal Transaction Engine"> >> > remains and I see C4 as a medium/long-term route to it, if they propose> >> > to adopt the enterprise model I advocate, (which, off the record, I> >> > heard today they do)> >>> >>> >> Not sure what C4 model is ... website just says "we believe> >> in business" ... so maybe microfinance.> >>> >> Universal Transaction Engine is a mouthful, what they should> >> do is set up their requirements as a first phase and then we> >> can work with it.> >>> >> I'm spending time outside that core payments area these> >> days. The Austrian experience was a fraud, there was never> >> any chance of doing any payments here, and I've basically> >> watched the fraud play itself out 2.5 times already.> >>> >> Basically I see no opportunity to finance the> >> bread-and-butter needs, open source or not. I'd open source> >> the Ricardo stuff if I could get the backend into> >> publishable shape, but even then, trying to impress people> >> on the benefits means I have to run the whole thing *and*> >> work my arse off to get their currencies up and going, all> >> on my nickel.> >>> >>> >> > > Development work for LETS SYSTEMS (ie transactions for LETS) has been> >> > > done under the auspices of LLL because it continues on from the> >> > > funding we got from ESF eighteen months ago - when I was working with> >> > > Mamading Ceesay on a Training Course, which is when I got the idea of> >> > > the "Specification for a Universal Transaction Engine" which is on> >> > > the LETSlink wiki mentioned above - anyone who wants an account, just> >> > > ask. Through Mamading I was invited to attend meetings called LETS> >> > > Get Together at Limehouse Town Hall. This has brought me into> >> > > contact with technical people, including Michael Linton himself,> >> > > Peter Brownell (drupal expert) and Hugh Barnard, who has been> >> > > developing ccLite, based on the LETSystem Trust's multi-registry idea.> >>> >>> >> Hmmm, no financial cryptographers that I recognise there.> >> Michael I know, lightly, but his focus seems to be elsewhere.> >>> >>> >> > > MatsLETS (or whatever) has some quirky, but attractive features such> >> > > as a wiki called docTree into which any html site design can be> >> > > converted, which allows for committee members to share the work of> >> > > updating the site with events and news reports. It also features> >> > > google maps integration, and auto directory categorisation. It is> >> > > based on the ICC model - which means Integrated Community Currency -> >> > > which combines Time-based, Sterling-based, and Gift-based currencies> >> > > (based on Robin Upton's altruism ideas), and allows for online> >> > > interchangeability between any currency which has a standard> >> > > time-based rate for when members wish to trade on an equal basis.> >>> >>> >> No, you can't have a standard rate to trade, it must be a> > > market.> >>> >>> >> > > have another wiki which is a private space where we discuss> >> > > developments on this project, which is alive and ongoing. There are> >> > > about a dozen test-profiles, and members waiting in line to join.> >> > >> >> > > We are aware of other systems, such as> >> > > * Richard Kay's transaction software, PyLETS (which I tried to host,> >> > > but got into some difficulties with - this would be idea for a LETS> >> > > group which already has a site and just wants to add in transaction> >> > > software which the LETS accountant updates but all members can view.),> >> > > * Calvin Priest's Local Exchange, which was written for Fourth Corner> >> > > group in the USA - founded by Francis Ayley co-founder of North> >> > > London LETS, and> >> > > * The Strohalm Project's Cyclos, which uses Java Servlets,> >> > > (presenting special hosting requirements, but we can do it on the> >> > > PWEB space) is robust, well-documented, handles only single> >> > > currencies, but it does support local groups.> >>> >>> >>> >> Hasan took the best ideas from Cyclos and developed a new> >> system. Unfortunately, he has no resources to develop it> >> with. Cyclos had at the time no transaction capability, it> >> was all pretty front end and persons management. Same old> >> story.> >>> >>> >> > > * not forgetting Hugh Barnard's CC-Lite, already mentioned, in perl,> >> > > and based on the multi-registry idea.> >>> >>> >> What is a multi-registry idea?> >>> >>> >> > > John Waters adds "I believe the flexibility should be built in to> >> > > define arbitrary special-purpose currencies (with properties> >> > > definable to meet specific needs - and with an option to use a> >> > > currency design tool for the purpose), and to define> >> > > currency-to-currency mapping functions (for exceptional use - and> >> > > only where the currencies' properties allow this, of course).> >>> >>> >>> >> Yes, this is correct. Any single-currency system is doomed.> >> A necessary but not sufficient condition is an infinite> >> number of currencies.> >>> >> Basically, John Waters is talking about Ricardian contracts.> >> We've experimented with what he calls "currency design> >> tools" and have got some ideas. The early experiments> >> didn't work out. It's much easier to write about than make> >> it work :)> >>> >>> >> > > we can support this work. Most of the team are in agreement that we> >> > > should be moving in the direction of drupal, but it has a steep> >> > > learning curve.> >>> >>> >> Drupal is a CMS ???? it has no bearing on financial> >> cryptography. Again, they are focussed on frontend> >> pretties, and there is no focus on backend systems.> >>> >>> >> > > Technical summary:> >> > > 1) Secure P2P architecture (=deal with friends, not random IP numbers)> >> > > 2) RSA secure (=Strong encryption, digital signatures)> >> > > 3) Scriptable using an extension of XSLT 1.0 (=you can write programs> >> > in it)> >> > > 4) Completely XML-based, highly configurable OS> >> > > 5) Coded in PHP/Java/XSLT> >> > > 6) Pre-alpha (=not-yet working :)> >>> >>> >> Hmmm... 2 clashes with 3, 4. 5 means ... front end, yet 1> >> says p2p.> >>> >> http://iang.org/ssl/h6_its_your_job_do_it.html> >>> >> I see a shortage of 6.1 "Designing (Security) Without> >> Requirements is like Building a Road Without a Route Map to> >> a Destination You've Never Seen."> >>> >>> >> Better metaphors wanted :)> >>> >>> >>> >> > > Non-geeky summary:> >> > > 1) Inspired by a complementary currency system (Altruistic Economics)> >> > > 2) NOT just another web-based solution to doing LETS online.> >> > > 3) Like WWW:> >> > > a. not restricted to any particular field of application.> >> > > b. highly decentralized, so no one 'in charge' (c.f. BitTorrent)> >> > > 4) Unlike WWW:> >> > > a. friendly sites may interoperate with one another easily &> >> > > securely, including (if permissions allow) friends of friends, fofof> >> > > etc.> >>> >>> >> So, again, no definition of what a transaction is.> >>> >>> >> > > I see a decentralised, 'anarchic' model as a logical progression of> >> > > web technologies, one that puts power in the hands of individual> >> > > users. I consider inter-LETS trading as vital if LETS is to offer a> >> > > real alternative to ordinary currency. I appreciate that the LETS> > > > > currency model has some intrinsic trouble in this area, but it is not> >> > > a particularly difficult one from a programming point of view.> >>> >>> >> !!! It is a mammoth challenge.> >>> >>> >> > > In any> >> > > case, I would council you against 'traditional' methods such as a> >> > > central directory of members, since such a system would have a single> >> > > point of failure or control.> >>> >>> >> Yes, and more.> >>> >> iang> >> >> >Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger > ><http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=wlmailtagline>Get > >it now!> > 
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