[GJM] Working with Banks and Corporations to Achieve a High Degree of Global Justice?

[robert searle]

Dear Steve Consilvio,

               Thank you for your critique. I will
try, and explain in listed form how TFE counters your
basic comments.




1. Yes, the ideas of TFE appear to be contradictory.
They only make sense when you see the whole picture. 





2. It is unlikely that a high moral stance for
interest free monetary reform will work as an actual
campaign because:-


i) The present capitalist system is too powerful
especially in connection with banks.


ii) It is unlikely that enough public susport could be
mustered to achieve real change especially in the rich
countries like Britain, and USA. However, in Latin
America (eg. Hugo Chavez)there has been a big swing to
the left. The reason in part is due to the huge amount
poverty. This gives people a greater incentive to
achieve change via "revolutionary" means......


iii)The pace of financial (ie TFE) change could be
alot easier, and QUICKER if we work with banks, and
corporations for a sustainable future. By legally
"bribing" the latter safe,cleaner, and environmentally
friendly products, and services could be mass produced
with mainly renewable resources. Profits could be
hugely subsidized with new unearned money from the
Central Banks of the rich world. Likewise the wages of
Third World workers could also be heavily subsidized
along with other relevant matters.


iv)A moral campaign for monetary reform would take too
long, and probably require much funding to have any
affect. Most important of all the world, and humanity
may NOT have enough time. So, moral issues such as
fairer distribution, utopian socialism, et al MUST be
put on the backburner for the time being. What matters
is NOW, and the present corrupt system, and how best
to modify it into something better.




3) TFE can be seen as a "TRANSITIONAL" system. It is
not the be-all, and end-all of economics. When in
place NGOs concerned with advanced, and fairer
social,economic, and political thinking would be
better funded as never before. Thus, they would have a
more powerful influence on public opinion.If they can
convince the masses, and governments to change from a
"...predatory-prey system.." then that is all fine,
and good.




4) You are right in saying that money is just an
"...intellectual agreement..." but it carries great
legal authority. In the future, I believe it will no
longer be necessary, and neither will profits. You may
like to read the ideas of Jacque Fresco concerned with
a Resource Based Economy.

However, the problem is trying to get from stage A to
stage B. To try, and introduce advanced
economic/social thinking (involving fairer wealth
distribution, and total universal cooperation as
opposed to cut-throat competition) for a possible
PRACTICAL REALITY NOW is clearly absurd by most people
standards. We need something that acts as a "bridge"
to the future. 




5) It must be forever remembered that in the evolving
TFE paradigm people will have greater chances of
lifting themselves out of "poverty." This could
notably come about with an increase in business
grants, and ofcourse interest free loans. 




Regards.

Robert Searle





--- Steve Consilvio <steve at behappyandfree.com> wrote:

> 
> On Feb 21, 2007, at 2:00 PM, discussion- 
> request at globaljusticemovement.net wrote:
> 
> > But, it does
> > require a total re-thinking of business strategies
> > that will ultimately lead to greater profits, and
> more
> > importantly greater global justice.  -Robert Seale
> 
> Robert, you have said a couple of contradictory
> things (not all of  
> which are quoted above.)
> 
> 1. Monetary reform is too hard, therefore we should
> not attempt it.
> 2. You have an idea for monetary reform called TFE
> 3. TFE will eliminate hyper inflation and
> devaluation
> 4. TFE will lead to greater profits.
> 
> Don't worry about your passionate defense of your
> ideas. I have a  
> thick skin, so calling me naive is okay. May I
> expect the same favor  
> in return? What you have here is doublethink. The
> bad thing about  
> doublethink is that it contains contradictory ideas.
> The good thing  
> about doublethink is that there are ideas, but they
> need to be made  
> consistent, and they usually can be.
> 
> Needless to say, I think most things other than
> monetary reform are  
> band-aids. We can and should use them, but the 
> strategy needs to  
> support the goal of monetary reform, which is both
> an intellectual  
> and a practical challenge.
> 
> I wish I understood your idea of TFE better, but I
> think you are  
> spending too much time thinking of money as "real"
> when in fact money  
> is an intellectual agreement. Thinking it is "real"
> is the central  
> problem and why we have crazy behaviors like trying
> to turn lead into  
> gold (from dirt to dirt) or the 1849 Gold Rush
> (crossing the country  
> to sit in dirt looking for dirt. and then locking
> the dirt in a room  
> and guarding it once found.) There is nothing more
> absurd than money.  
> We assign values to things without understanding the
> concept of value  
> or the role of value within the whole system.
> (Allegedly this is the  
> role of economics, but clearly the theory cannot
> separate the forest  
> from the tree. Most theory only describes the
> practice of businesses,  
> not the practice of society and the role law plays
> in granting  
> privileges to a select few. Again, this is because
> money is thought  
> of as real and not as a tool.)
> 
> Economics is not the same as business. Economics is
> supposed to  
> discover what is wrong with business.
> History is not the same as politics. History is
> supposed to find what  
> is wrong with politics.
> As we know, those in business and politics make
> claims to history and  
> economic theories that have no resemblance to
> reality, but fit their  
> goal very well. They are projecting what they wish
> to see and  
> repeating what they have been indoctrinated to
> believe.
> 
> Politically, the thing that you do not recognize is
> that the banks  
> and corporations are also victims in this system.
> They can't "fix"  
> it, even if they desired to, just like a
> philanthropist is  
> ineffective, too. The "system" is stronger than all
> the players  
> because the system is mis-diagnosed. Everybody plays
> a role as  
> predator and prey. While it is easy to blame the
> richest person or  
> richest organization as the "worst" predator, in
> fact they are doing  
> nothing different than anyone else. Any game of
> competition will have  
> one winner and many losers. It is like a ladder
> where at the top rung  
> you simply fall off with a thud. The Interest
> Mechanism makes the  
> ladder perpetually taller (bigger numbers) so the
> "thuds" get worse  
> and the divide from the top and the bottom is worse,
> but the system  
> itself is essentially unchanged, only more
> developed. There is an oak  
> tree in every acorn, and what changes is not the
> mechanics but only  
> the volume of material involved.
> 
> As such, the predator is as enslaved as much as the
> prey within the  
> system. (Also known as the Lion and the Lamb, in
> biblical terms.) Fpr  
> the weak to be strong and for the strong to be
> gentle requires a  
> shift in both of their thinking. A solution requires
> trust and self- 
> restraint; fear must be exposed, but exposing fear
> to the fearful and  
> pride is not easy. In our case, the goal is a change
> in the system  
> because the system reflects the thinking. ergo, to
> change the system  
> you must change the thinking. And what is the
> biggest problem with  
> the thinking? Doublethink. It isn't the person that
> is the problem,  
> it is the contradictory ideas that they believe and
> promote. (aka the  
> sins of our fathers) We have all been indoctrinated
> before we were  
> educated, and the most powerful myth in the world is
> the idea of  
> money and marketplace theory (profit and interest as
> normal and good.)
> 
> I know I am a predator. I've owned a business for
> twenty years. Every  
> penny I have made and lost was in a predator-prey
> system. Did I have  
> any choice? It is either win or lose. You avoid the
> whip and go for  
> the food; that is what everybody does. There is no
> other choice  
> offered, there is no other way to survive. Be a
> slave or be a  
> slavemaster. Both choices stink, and when the
> prophets say they won't  
> participate people think they are crazy, when in
> fact they "get it"  
> sooner than everybody else does.  As the ladder gets
> to ridiculous  
> historical heights, like it is now, and more people
> are losing, then  
> society starts to fray. The blame game takes over,
> even in an  
> agrarian society. (Debt is not a modern phenomenon.)
> We are an  
> industrialized co-dependent society. It is
> impossible to live off the  
> grid, nor do I think it makes sense to do so. Man is
> a social animal.  
> We should enjoy each others gifts and talents, but
> we do have to fix  
> the system where it is wrong: Money. While it is a
> moral struggle,  
> the systemic problem is mathematical. 2+2=5 is
> wrong, and there are  
> an infinite number of other wrong answers. Only
> 2+2=4 is correct.
> 
> Look at the three empires: Non-profits, governments,
> and businesses,  
> and the individual families. All four are in a
> perpetual "budget  
> crisis." To get out of their own budget crisis they
> seek help from  
> another of the three entities. We are all equally a
> part of, and have  
> a vested interest in (as a society) in all three
> empires and our  
> neighbors. Like a clock, there is no extra part.
> "Blame" is not going  
> to fix anything, nor is saying one part should take
> the burden for  
> another part. That is the root cause of the problem
> we have now.  
> Every solution is just cost shifting, be it taxes,
> profits or  
> donations. The money shifts, the problems remain.
> The three empires  
> are always building and expanding, and their needs
> "to shift money"  
> always take precedence over individuals. The
> government builds a  
> courthouse and raises taxes while citizens starve,
> the 
=== message truncated ===>
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