[GJM] FUNNY MONEY?
Rodney Shakespeare
rodney.shakespeare1 at btinternet.com
Thu Aug 9 13:09:06 MDT 2007
Hi Moeen,
You did not include my last email to you in this correspondence which you have now sent to the GJM. Among other things it said that I wanted to end the correspondence (it had gone on long enough and the issues are very clear).
The last email is set out below. The full title of the book referred to is The Universal Paradigm and Islamic World Systems: Economy, Society, Ethics and Science. As you can see it at least tries to go as wide as possible.
Rodney
----------------
Hi Moeen,
1. I just reply to emails at the address from which they are sent. I do not have time to work out which email address is which. It is up to you to stop sending emails from the address you want deleted.
2. I will be blunt. There is only one issue in respect of you and colleagues -- whether you really do know what modern (let alone traditional) Islamic reaction is to debt-free issuance (as opposed to taking the advice of only one or two people in the UK). I have warned of the situation -- I can do no more -- and you will find out in due course what is, or is not, acceptable in Islam. In Islam, debt-free issuance is not acceptable and, if you propose it, you are shooting yourself in the foot (and even shooting yourself higher up). If I am right or wrong, time will tell.
3. As regards my knowledge of Islam, it is very simple and I tell everyione -- I do not rely at all on my knowledge of Islam (goodness me, it is minimal or nil) but rely on, and work in association with, those who have the highest levels of expertise in Islam and are recognised as such. If I may say so, what do you think the latest book is about (the Masudul Alam Choudhury one)? My views on Islam? Of course not! All the Islamic material etc comes from Masudul Choudhury who works with high-level colleagues.
4. Inter-disciplinary? Do you know what is in that book? You should find out its FULL title? You may not know but Masud Choudhury -- yes, Choudhury -- is the Islamic academic who, perhaps more than anybody else, has made Islam aware of the need for inter-disciplinary effort and the new book attempts to unite ALL knowledge!! (Whether it does or not, is another matter but that is the aim).
6. I have one comment -- and now one comment only -- to make on the thread as it has developed. If James Gibb-Stuart and colleagues wrote letters etc to Malaysia in 1998 they did NOT succeed in influencing Malaysia to take up debt-free issuance (they only influenced the imposition of capital controls). Islamic opposition to riba/interest does NOT logically lead to debt-free issuance. Virtually all governments have some debt-free issuance but large-scale such issuance is generally unacceptable.
Moeen, I wish to end this correspondence.
Rodney
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Yaseen" <myaseen at mail.globalvision2000.com>
To: <@localhost>; <discussion at globaljusticemovement.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 9:18 PM
Subject: [GJM] FUNNY MONEY?
Hi Rodney,
Firstly all email communications should be addressed to myaseen at globalvision2000.com and any other email addresses deleted. Secondly I have taken the liberty as the author of this thread to "go public" with it as I think it is in the public interest and there are points outlined here which has moved things forward in the cut and thrust of heated debate.
Thirdly, it is important that differences of opinion on strategy and fundamental issues are debated between those with strongly held different views.
Fourthly in your comments concerning Global Vision 2000 and it's advisers you have stated that we have NOT done our homework. May I bring to your attention that Daud Pidcock is indeed one of our advisers and that is why he was brought into the discussion on this thread. However, as Global Vision 2000 is dedicated to a PARADIGM SHIFT we are open to pursuit of truth in order to move towards the UNIVERSAL PARADIGM SHIFT which I believe should be developed by a COMMUNITY OF COLLABORATION.
Any community of collaboration will be an interdisciplinary initiative and it would be naive to expect any individual to be an expert on all disciplines. For instance even yourself who specialises in Islamic finance will probably be ignorant of Islamic history and civilisation which falls within the scope of one discipline.
Moeen
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: david pidcock <davidpidcock at yahoo.co.in>
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 08:43:43 +0100 (BST)
Dear Rodney
Thank you for a very civilised and constructive reply.
I too have very fond memories of KL and our visit, with Peter, to see Malaysia's Finance Minister Tansri Nor Bin Yacop at his office in Putra Jaya. Off the record they continue to acknowledge the role played by James Gibb-Stuart, Ken Palmerton and Paul Bates, Together with the Bromsgrove Group and the FFSC but also continue to play these down because they are all non-Bhumy Putra i.e "Orange Putti" - as Mahatir's former Political Secretary made clear: "I am sorry, for all you did, and the trouble you took, we have not been good or appreciative friends to you..."
>
> With best regards
> Yours sincerely
> David
>
> P.S. The Key is controlling the issuance of paper or its electronic equivalent - it does not have to be printed on actual paper. In 300 years The Channel Islands have never experienced the kind of problems you envisage neither has the Island of Bali - which has had a dual debt-free inflation free system for over 3000 years - see Bernard Lietaer's paper on this - I will send a copy for you to look at later.
>
> In the mean time I am attaching a copy of his interview and a scanned version of the 1964 U.S. House Banking Committee Report - 169 Q&A's, which has with it a copy of the RMU - Real Money Unit devised by Zakaria Bawany (Islam's answer to George Sorros) which Ken Palmerton and I presented to the heads of the ICC Islamic Chambers of Commerce in Karachi - When Ken informed him that what he was proposing was the same solution that Keynes and Dexter Whyte took to Bretton Woods - Zakaria said: I know nothing about Bretton Woods and know even less about Tiger.
>
> In addition to this is a booklet I did for the Iranian Islamic Centre in London entitled : The Truth About Money - EVEN UNTO CHINA. These were all translated into Chinese in March this year during my 8 day visit.
>
> David
>
>
>Rodney Shakespeare <rodney.shakespeare1 at btinternet.com> wrote:
> David,
> Thanks for replying.
>
> In summary this letter will end the correspondence because the situation is now very clear and it is up to Moeen and immediate colleagues to do some proper investigation and decide what they want to do.
>
> 1. The Bangladesh women would still have to pay for the administration cost because it includes the considerable cost of their training etc. So the cost becomes roughly only halved even though the loans would be interest-free. (NB. Recently the Islamic Development Bank rejected this idea (proposed by me) -- no reason given! Well I never!)
>
> 2. Please do not make the mistake of thinking that I am not physically threatened. About six weeks ago an intelligence contact informed me that the (Devil's!) diagram could not be intellectually and morally faulted (he had taken the diagram away for study of some sort) but I should also understand that my life could be at risk.
>
> 3. I support your attack on poverty (and already knew of the kidney information and much similar) and also think the world financial system is probably on the verge of a collapse but the real issue in this correspondence is what is, or is not, acceptable to Muslims particulary the sort of people we are trying to reach. We are both aware of the many different views, groupings etc in Islam as in anywhere else but the key matter is whether or not a debt-free issuance proposal would be seriously acceptable. Yes, the debt-free proposal can be put at any conference (conference organisers like to liven things up and, certainly on one occasion, I was the comedy act -- but I soon wiped the smirks off the faces) but what matters is whether any particular proposal will be acceptable and taken seriously.
>
> 4. Rather than let this correspondence chunter on I think it all gets down to Moeen and his immediate colleagues deciding whether they think their important Islamic activities will, or will not, be best furthered by promoting debt-free issuance and, to help them decide, I say three things:-
>
> a) I am perfectly willing not to be invited to the October conference and so that would leave the debt-free proposal unchallenged. It is Moeen and colleagues (and, in October, Iranian Embassy's) Islamic conference. It's their conference, not mine. Furthermore, I am not a Muslim. Indeed, at all the Islamic conferences I attend I always make that clear and express thanks for the privilege of being allowed to speak.
>
> b) It is time that Moeen (and his immediate colleagues) got off their backsides, made a proper international investigation of the matter and decided, in particular, whom they are trying to influence and whether it is politically, psychologically and intellectually viable to be associated with putting the debt-free proposal to Muslims (of any sort, anywhere). I do not know much about Moeen (and nothing about his colleagues) but the little I do know tells me that they have not done their homework.
>
> c) There is no point in listening to me any more. I am content that I have done everything practicable to alert Moeen and colleagues to the situation and it's up to them to decide what they want to do.
>
> Regards (and Peter Challen and I always have most pleasant memories of your company in Kuala Lumpur).
>
> Rodney
>
PS a)Yes, I know Islamic Banking is haram.
b) I mentioned IBF NET but the conferences and universities are much more important.
c) I agree with virtually everything you say except that being against riba and against poverty does not logically lead on (as you obviously think) to debt-free issuance because that generally leads to inflation and, eventually, a wrecked economy.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: david pidcock
> To: Rodney Shakespeare
> Cc: Moeen YASEEN ; Moeen Yaseen ; ken palmerton ; Doctor Muktaralam
> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 8:57 PM
> Subject: Re: Global Vision 2000 FUNNY MONEY?
>
>
> COMMENTS ON:- Moeen,
I am astounded by this correspondence.
1. If anybody wishes to learn the basic information on binary economics -- and that is greatly in doubt -- they can go to:-
<!--[if !supportLists]-->a) <!--[endif]-->www.binaryeconomics.net where be is explained and, on every main page, there is a simple, brightly coloured diagram setting out things in the clearest possible way. WHY SHOULD THE DEVIL HAVE ALL THE BEST PIE CHARTS : SATAN THREATENS YOU WITH POVERTY, AND BIDS YOU TO CONDUCT UNSEEMLY. SURAH 2 : verse 268.
> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->b) <!--[endif]-->For example, whereas at the moment the women of Bangladesh (and elsewhere) have to pay interest, the binary proposal would halve the cost to them. RODNEY: WHY ACCEPT ONLY HALVING IT? IT WOULD STILL BE 10% - IF MR. YUNIS OF GRAMIN BANK HAD BEEN ADVOCATING ZERO INTEREST HE WOULD NOT HAVE RECEIVED THE NOBEL PRIZE - BUT, RATHER, THE ONE ISSUED TO MESSRS LINCOLN and KENNEDY.
>
> b) the new, greatly improved, Wikipedia article on Binary economics.
> It is, of course, too much to hope that any of the relevant books have been, or ever will be, read by people in this correspondence, but, just for the record, the two latest books are:-
> i) The Modern Universal Parfadigm (Rodney Shakespeare). This has just been published but the distribution arrangements are not yet in place (probably by the end of the week).
><!--[if !supportLists]-->ii) <!--[endif]-->The Universal Paradigm and Islamic World-system (Masudul Alam Choudhury and Rodney Shakespeare). Just published. Go to www.amazon.com <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
> RODNEY: SELF PROMOTION IS SURELY NO RECOMMENDATION. FOR MUSLIMS THE ONLY RELEVANT BOOKS ARE THE QUR'AN AND HADITH ALL OF WHICH - FOR THE PAST 1400 YEARS - WERE WRITTEN ON PAPER, MEMORISED AND RECITED VERBATIM.
>
> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->
>
>RODNEY: FOR MUSLIMS NOTHING IS MORE SACRED - HOWEVER AS THE PROPHET WARNED : WHEN THE QUR'AN IS WRITTEN IN LETTERS OF GOLD (AS IT IS TODAY) IT WILL NOT BE ACTED UPON AT WHICH TIME INTEREST / USURY WILL DOMINATE THE ENTIRE WORLD - INCLUDING THAT OF THE MUSLIMS.
>
>
> The two books and two websites above and the main thrust of the teaching at Trisakti University reflect the Islamic desire for interest-free loans directed at the development and spreading of various forms of productive (and the associated consuming) capacity thereby implementing Say's Law and forwarding social and economic justice.
> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
> RODNEY: RECOMMENDING SAYS OR SAY'S LAW IS AS IRRESPONSIBLE AS ADVOCATING THE USE OF GASOLINE TO EXTINGUISH FIRES. WHICH, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, HAS AN ADVERSE EFFECT. HISTORY SHOWS THAT THE APPLICATION OF SAYS/SAY'S LAW ONLY EVER CREATES DEFICITS - OR AS KEYNES DESCRIBED IT - "A DEFICIENCY OF EFFECTIVE DEMAND" IN OTHER WORDS FINANCIAL A.I.D.S : ACQUIRED - INVESTMENT - DEFICIENCY - SYNDROME : HARDLY ENCOURAGING PROSPECTS
> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
> Muslims are opposed to interest/riba but (and this is expressed very strongly at the academic conferences) they will never accept the printed issuance of money (i.e. debt-free issuance).
> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->It is madness even to try to promote such issuance because the promotion will be perceived as a Western trick.
>
> RODNEY THE ONLY WESTERN TRICK VISIBLE HERE IS THE ONE BEING CONJOURED UP BY YOU AND THE IBF - AS SHEIKH SALEH KAMEL (AL BARAKAT BANK) ADMITTED IN AN UNGUARDED MOMENT OR MAMONMENT : "WE HAVE HALAL WINDOWS IN HARAM PALACES."
> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
> The ignorance of the situation displayed by this correspondence is beyond belief and I doubt if anybody has even bothered to join by far the biggest and most active Islamic internet discussion group on Islamic banking finance and economics -- IBF NET -- which deals with virtually all aspects of these matters (yes, even Social Credit) and a few days ago was confirmed to have 5,500 members. IBF NET discussion shows that the members either want to stay with the interest-bearing money of the status quo (particularly in the form it has developed as 'Islamic Banking') or, increasingly, they are looking to interest-free loan issuance for the spreading of productive capacity.
>
> RODNEY - AN ISLAMIC BANKER "WISHING TO STAY WITH INTEREST BEARING MONEY" IS A COMPLETE CONTRADICTION IF EVER THERE WAS ONE. A MUSLIM BANKER PERHAPS - AN ISLAMIC BANKER NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS - HERE WE SEE THE FEEDING or the GREEDING OF THE 5,000+ - WITH HALAL KINZEER OR KOSHER PORK PIES. OBVIOUSLY A SLIGHT INCREASE SINCE THE TIME OF JESUS (pbu) NO DOUBT DUE TO INFLATION.
> <!--[if !supportLists]--> 2. <!--[endif]-->The Larouche analysis (of a coming collapse) is not unique to Larouche. Many people at the Islamic conferences I attend are in various degrees of worry about a collapse.
> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->3. <!--[endif]-->Moreover, some people (and David Pidcock and Ken Palmerton are splendid examples) make the critique of riba/interest most effectively. But a trenchant critique of riba (no matter how excellent) does not mean that 'printed money' issuance can be promoted to Islam. RODNEY THE QUESTION IS CERTAINLY NOT "CAN" BE PROMOTED, BUT, RATHER WHAT SHOULD BE IMPARTED REGARDLESS OF THE OUTCOME - ONLY THE TRUTH WILL SET US FREE.
> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->4. <!--[endif]-->RODNEY, WHAT YOU HAVE FAILED TO COMPREHEND ALONG WITH THE OTHER 5,500 MEMBERS OF THE IBF CLUB IS THAT : THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THE EXERCISE IS TO DO THINGS THAT ARE PLEASING IN THE SIGHT OF GOD, YHWA, ADONAI, ELOHIM, ALLAH'a (Aramaic), ALLAH. AS THE PROPHET IS INFORMED IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS: - "IT IS NOT REQUIRED OF YOU (O MESSENGER ) TO SET THEM ON THE RIGHT PATH - ALLAH SETS ON THE RIGHT PATH WHOM SO EVER HE PLEASE. WHAT EVER OF GOOD YOU GIVE, BENEFITS YOUR OWN SOULS - AND YOU SHALL ONLY DO SO SEEKING THE COUNTENANCE (FACE) OF GOD/ALLAH. WHAT EVER GOOD YOU DO WILL BE RENDERED BACK TO YOU AND YOU WILL NOT BE DEALT WITH UNJUSTLY." Surah 2 (ibid) verse 272.
> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->5. <!--[endif]--> When Muslims nod their heads in agreement with the critique/analysis they are most certainly not nodding their heads in agreement with the issuance of 'printed money' which they view as inflationary and not directed at productive capacity. RODNEY. IF YOU TOOK THE TIME TO SHOW THEM THAT PRINTED MONEY - OR M0 - IS NOT INFLATIONARY - WHICH IT MOST CERTAINLY IS NOT WHEN IT IS REGULATED CORRECTLY - THEN YOU MIGHT HAVE A LEG TO STAND ON. BUT THIS WHOLE BINARY ISSUE IS PART OF THE ESTABLISHED ORDER'S PERENNIAL B.S.E DAMAGE LIMITATION EXERCISE IN OTHER WORDS TO BLAME SOMEONE OR SOMETHING ELSE FOR OUR WOES. ONLY 2.5% TO 3% OF ALL MONEY IN CIRCULATION IS M0 i.e. PAPER CASH AND COINS. ALL THE REST IS CREATED FRAUDULENTLY UNDER THE FRACTIONAL RESERVE SYSTEM. IF YOU DO NOT INFORM THE PEOPLE - INCLUDING MUSLIMS - HOW WILL THEY EVER KNOW THAT INFLATION IS CREATED BY THE VERY PEOPLE - INCLUDING THE 5,500 MUSLIM MEMBERS OF THE IBF.
> BANKERS - WHO ARE ENSLAVED BY THE BASLE CAPITAL ADEQUACY REQUIREMENTS - ENCOURAGED AND ENDORSED BY PEOPLE SUCH AS PRINCE MOHAMMED AL FAISAL. BY WHICH HIGH STREET BANKS BYPASS THE TREASURY DEPARTMENTS AND ISSUE 97% OF ALL MONEY AS A DEBT PLUS INTEREST - OUT OF NOTHING AND AT TINY COST. MUSLIMS SHOULD BE AWARE THAT THEY ARE INVOLVED IN FRAUD AS WELL AS USURY.
>
>A key point here is that if it were guaranteed that the collapse would happen tomorrow then anything is possible (and Helicopter Ben Bernacke of the USA Federal Reserve has not ruled out the printing of money and dropping it from helicopters in emergency circumstances -- and even the gold people can conceive of emergency circumstances). But what we are talking about is long-term stable strategy to build proper, just economies not liable to collapse. Proposing inflation by debt-free issuance does not engender confidence that the proposers have a stable long-term strategy in mind.
> NB. Just because LaRouche may be accurately forecasting a collapse does NOT mean that his solution is acceptable to Islam or anybody else. I am still uncertain exactly what it is that LaRouche is proposing and await the day when I will be given a short, clear summary of what he proposes (as distinct from spouting miles of entertaining screed). Many people get the feel that, while undoubtedly brilliant, LaRouche would create a type of authoritarianism because he would in practice concentrate the ownership and control of productive capacity rather than spread it.
>
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->3. <!--[endif]-->I ask you to check out what I say with reputable Islamic authors i.e. check out if Muslims support debt-free printed money issuance.
> <!--[if !supportLists]-->4. <!--[endif]-->You should start with Tarek el_Diwany (The Problem with Interest) because he is the most widely known and respected Islamic author on the subject of riba/interest and he is easily contactable in the UK. tarek at kreatoc.com You -- and the other people in this correspondence -- will certainly agree with Tarek's analysis BUT NB, his preferred solution is gold. Ask him to give a considered view of whether Islam would support debt-free issuance (printed money).
>
> 4. The common ground of many Muslims (but not those Muslims who, basically, are upholders of the status quo) is some version of impending trouble and of some desire for monetary reform -- either gold (yes, gold) or interest-free loans. But not printed money issuance -- they would think you are trying to turn them into Zimbabwe. RODNEY WAS IT AN OVERSIGHT OR DID YOU CONVENIENTLY FORGET EXAMPLES MUCH CLOSER TO HOME - I.E THE CHANNEL ISLANDS? I'M SURE THAT EVERY ONE WHO HAS READ YOUR STUFF IS NOT AWARE THAT FOR THE PAST 300+ YEARS PARTS OF THE UNITED KINGDOM GUERNSEY, JERSEY AND TO SOME EXTENT THE ISLE OF MAN HAVE BEEN DOING EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAY WOULD PUT THEM IN THE SAME CATEGORY AS ZIMBABWE - I DON'T THINK THAT EVEN BELIEVERS IN BINARY ECONOMICS WOULD ACCEPT THAT PARTICULAR RED HERRING - MANX OR OTHERWISE. CERTAINLY PEOPLE SUCH AS ALEX DOWNIE THE I.O.M'S CHIEF MINISTER, OR JOHN R. ASPEN CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF THE ISLAND'S F.S.C OR MIKE BROWN - WHO OFFICIALLY SIGNS
> GUERNSEY'S BANK NOTES (mike.brown at gov.gg),OR STUART FALLA AND STEPHEN JONES BOTH OFFICIALS OF THE STATES OF GUERNSEY'S FINANCE INDUSTRY POLICY GROUP (www.gov.gg).
>
>NO THEY ALL KNOW THE SECRET WHY SO MANY RICH PEOPLE WANT TO LIVE IN THE CHANNEL ISLANDS - SO THEY CAN AVOID CAPITAL PUNI$HMENT. WHICH IS WHY THEY ALL STAYED OUT OF EUROPE - PART OF THE UK BUT NOT OF EUROPE. SINCE 1694 THEY REFUSED TO GIVE UP THEIR RIGHT TO ISSUE THEIR OWN PAPER MONEY - FREE OF DEBT AND INTEREST - AS A RESULT OF WHICH THEY HAVE LOW TAXATION.
>MUSLIMS KNOW THAT THEY SHOULD "SHOULD (INFAG) SPEND - NOT LEND - IN THE WAY OF THEIR LORD".
>
>BUT IF YOU CONTINUE TO BLIND THEM AND BIND THEM WITH BINARY TWINE THEN IT IS ON YOUR HEAD AND THEIRS.
>
>
> 5. The issue is not what I think but what is, or is not, patently acceptable to Islam and I see no evidence in this correspondence that this matter is being addressed. When there is such evidence e.g. written opinion from reputable Islamic scholars, academics etc we can discuss further. In the meantime I consider this correspondence to be so out of touch with economic, political and Islamic reality that I do not feel inclined to continue it.
>
> Moreover, this correspondence is so extraordinary that I do have to consider whether an attempt will be made to link me with debt-free issuance and twist what I say. I have already made it clear to you that in no way will I allow binary economics to be twisted and misrepresented and, frankly, this correspondence is not giving me confidence that that will not happen.
> Rodney
>
> Rodney. If I find the time to comment further I will do so. But, suffice it to say that Muslims - and the People of The Book are supposed to lend - without interest because - they are not lending their money to you or me but rather they should come to realize that they are lending it to Allah - therefore He is the One who guarantees our return on investment - in the shape of real wealth, health and contentment etc.
> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
> As clearly predicted by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) The Muslims have now divided into more sects and factions than the Jews and the Christians and exceeded them in disobedience. As a result of which they are being visited with all the trials and tribulations foretold.
> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
> A time will come when will be difficult to distinguish truth from falsehood, when men commit adultery with men and women with women. When human blood will have no value, when the barefoot and the destitute will compete building arrogantly tall buildings, rain will do no good and it will fall out of season, singing women make their appearance, along with groups of singing women with strange musical instruments, when riba comes to dominate.etc"
> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
> This is the time of the Anti-Christ - the Dajjal.
> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
> DAVID M PIDCOCK.
>
>
>
>
>Rodney Shakespeare <rodney.shakespeare1 at btinternet.com> wrote: Moeen,
>
> I am astounded by this correspondence.
>
> 1. If anybody wishes to learn the basic information on binary economics -- and that is greatly in doubt -- they can go to:-
> a) www.binaryeconomics.net where b.e is explained and, on every main page, there is a simple, brightly coloured diagram setting out things in the clearest possible way. For example, whereas at the moment the women of Bangladesh (and elsewhere) have to pay interest, the binary proposal would halve the cost to them.
>
> b) the new, greatly improved, Wikipedia article on Binary economics.
>
> It is, of course, too much to hope that any of the relevant books have been, or ever will be, read by people in this correspondence, but, just for the record, the two latest books are:-
>
> i) The Modern Universal Parfadigm (Rodney Shakespeare). This has just been published but the distribution arrangements are not yet in place (probably by the end of the week).
>
> ii) The Universal Paradigm and Islamic World-system (Masudul Alam Choudhury and Rodney Shakespeare). Just published. Go to www.amazon.com
>
> The two books and two websites above and the main thrust of the teaching at Trisakti University reflect the Islamic desire for interest-free loans directed at the development and spreading of various forms of productive (and the associated consuming) capacity thereby implementing Say's Law and forwarding social and economic justice. Muslims are opposed to interest/riba but (and this is expressed very strongly at the academic conferences) they will never accept the printed issuance of money (i.e. debt-free issuance). It is madness even to try to promote such issuance because the promotion will be perceived as a Western trick.
>
> The ignorance of the situation displayed by this correspondence is beyond belief and I doubt if anybody has even bothered to join by far the biggest and most active Islamic internet discussion group on Islamic banking finance and economics -- IBF NET -- which deals with virtually all aspects of these matters (yes, even Social Credit) and a few days ago was confirmed to have 5,500 members. IBF NET discussion shows that the members either want to stay with the interest-bearing money of the status quo (particularly in the form it has developed as 'Islamic Banking') or, increasingly, they are looking to interest-free loan issuance for the spreading of productive capacity.
>
> 2. The Larouche analysis (of a coming collapse) is not unique to Larouche. Many people at the Islamic conferences I attend are in various degrees of worry about a collapse. Moreover, some people (and David Pidcock and Ken Palmerton are splendid examples) make the critique of riba/interest most effectively. But a trenchant critique of riba (no matter how excellent) does not mean that 'printed money' issuance can be promoted to Islam. When Muslims nod their heads in agreement with the critique/analysis they are most certainly not nodding their heads in agreement with the issuance of 'printed money' which they view as inflationary and not directed at productive capacity.
>
> A key point here is that if it were guaranteed that the collapse would happen tomorrow then anything is possible (and Helicopter Ben Bernacke of the USA Federal Reserve has not ruled out the printing of money and dropping it from helicopters in emergency circumstances -- and even the gold people can conceive of emergency circumstances). But what we are talking about is long-term stable strategy to build proper, just economies not liable to collapse. Proposing inflation by debt-free issuance does not engender confidence that the proposers have a stable long-term strategy in mind.
>
> NB. Just because LaRouche may be accurately forecasting a collapse does NOT mean that his solution is acceptable to Islam or anybody else. I am still uncertain exactly what it is that LaRouche is proposing and await the day when I will be given a short, clear summary of what he proposes (as distinct from spouting miles of entertaining screed). Many people get the feel that, while undoubtedly brilliant, LaRouche would create a type of authoritarianism because he would in practice concentrate the ownership and control of productive capacity rather than spread it.
>
> 3. I ask you to check out what I say with reputable Islamic authors i.e check out if Muslims support debt-free printed money issuance. You should start with Tarek el_Diwany (The Problem with Interest) because he is the most widely known and respected Islamic author on the subject of riba/interest and he is easily contactable in the UK. tarek at kreatoc.com You -- and the other people in this correspondence -- will certainly agree with Tarek's analysis BUT NB, his preferred solution is gold. Ask him to give a considered view of whether Islam would support debt-free issuance (printed money).
>
> 4. The common ground of many Muslims (but not those Muslims who, basically, are upholders of the status quo) is some version of impending trouble and of some desire for monetary reform -- either gold (yes, gold) or interest-free loans. But not printed money issuance -- they would think you are trying to turn them into Zimbabwe.
>
> 5. The issue is not what I think but what is, or is not, patently acceptable to Islam and I see no evidence in this correspondence that this matter is being addressed. When there is such evidence e.g. written opinion from reputable Islamic scholars, academics etc we can discuss further. In the meantime I consider this correspondence to be so out of touch with economic, political and Islamic reality that I do not feel inclined to continue it.
>
> Moreover, this correspondence is so extraordinary that I do have to consider whether an attempt will be made to link me with debt-free issuance and twist what I say. I have already made it clear to you that in no way will I allow binary economics to be twisted and misrepresented and, frankly, this correspondence is not giving me confidence that that will not happen.
>
> Rodney
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yaseen" <myaseen at mail.globalvision2000.com>
> To: "david pidcock" <davidpidcock at yahoo.co.in>; <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "ken palmerton" <kenpalmerton at cix.co.uk>; "Moeen YASEEN" <myaseen at mail.globalvision2000.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2007 8:21 PM
> Subject: Re: Global Vision 2000 FUNNY MONEY?
>
>
>
>> Hi Daud,
>>
>> Thanks for this email which I will forward to Rodney Shakespeare as there is a need for transparency and dialogue as opposed to a cloak and dagger approach that I am right and he is wrong. I was aware that there are different schools of thought in the monetary reform movement but was not aware of the exact nature and tension involved.
>> According to Larouche the financial system has started to implode in the USA accordingly it is very important and urgent to be ready with the alternative monetary and financial reforms to replace an imploding system in crisis.
>> I think we need to go beyond personalities here as Rodney Shakespeare is stating that he is working with Professor Masadul Choudhary and an independent network of Islamic economists. It appears whilst both parties are in agreement in the nature of the diagnosis-
>>
>> 1.Private control of the money supply,
>> 2.Fiat money
>> 3.Usury
>> 4.Need for redistribution of wealth and finance for productive capacity
>> 5.Decoupling the dollar as the reserve currency and petrol from dollars
>>
>>
>> Accordingly in terms of prescription why is there such a rift in the monetary camp- the only thing Rodney has stated about your views is that they would fall under what he refers to as the Social Credit movement. Regardless of which school of thought it is imperative to COLLABORATE and identify the COMMON GROUND which reformers share and move forward with a UNIVERSAL MANIFESTO for change.
>>
>> Moeen
>>
>> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>> From: "Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam" <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com>
>> Reply-To: mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com
>> Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 22:46:48 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>>Dear Brother, Waalaikumusslam, Greetings for peace,
>>>
>>> It is indeed great and you are very much right. I had the impression that through binary economics they were getting the conclusions for interest free loans while suggesting that this is already acceptable to Muslims..and all who have respect for commands against usury.
>>>
>>> The trcik is to get men and women who are not accepting the commands of Allah and wish to address the root problems through adopting arguments dervied through secular /atheistic analysis without reference to the commands of Allah.. where forgiveness of debt is commanded alongwith prohibition of usury.
>>>
>>> Looking forward to see you soon in Delhi
>>>
>>> Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam
>>>
>>> david pidcock <davidpidcock at yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Doctor
>>> ASA. Of course I know of the Global Justice Movement I just did not associate the two as it is rarely refered to as GJM. However, there can be no Global Justice through Binary economics - as a result of which we are wasting our time.
>>>
>>> The only solution is the right one - Musa, Isa, Muhammad, Ali, Gazzali, Riccardo, Lincoln, Napoleon, Jefferson, Maddison, Jackson, Keynes, Vickers, Kennedy et al all undersood the right solution - many were assassinated - ALL were opposed because they knew the solution and tried to implement it.
>>>
>>> Binary means to split in to two or exist as two - Divide and Rule is the Roman method of control
>>> William Shakespear wrote against Debt in the Merchant of Venice and points out in King Lear - That the Usurer - (the Big Thief) in the respectable garb of the Magistrate - Hangs the Cozener (the petty thief in tattered rags) who committed the theft he was arrested for because he was starving and because he could not find any money to feed himself and his family and he was in debt to the Usurer. By the end of this week 11 farmers will have committed suicide in India because of "the burden of debt"
>>>
>>> As history shows - the lack of money is the root of all evil - Funny Money - I think not.
>>>
>>> Rodney should read the work of his namesake and stop wasting our time - however most prefer mystery to history.
>>>
>>> I rest my case.
>>>
>>> Yours Daud
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>> Yours Daud
>>>
>>>
>>>"Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam" <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Dear brother in Islam,
>>>
>>> ASA,
>>>
>>> I thought you were aware of Global Justice Movement www.globaljusticemovement.net as we met through that. Rodney Shakespeare writes in that forum . My problem with the GJM position was that communication against usury should always be in pursuance of the commands of God and reference for this be made as all people of Book are supposed to follow that for all. Inshallah, more and more people will join in the movement for elimination of ecologically hostile ususious system.
>>>
>>> I am with you in getting to that debt free destination.
>>>
>>> Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>david pidcock <davidpidcock at yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>>> Dear Doctor
>>> Please advise who or what is GJM? The Islamically sound communication is surely the Qur'an which categorically informs us to expect war from Allah and His Messenger if we do not give up what remains to us of usury.Furthermore there is no difference between interest and usury - to believe so is to think that a lady can be just a teeny bit pregnant.
>>>
>>> After 1400 years - in the present usurer friendly system as the one inhabited by Muslims - it should not surprise us that we are still only ever "heading towards" but never arriving at an interest free/debt free destination.
>>>
>>> Yours sincerely
>>> Daud
>>>
>>> "Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam" <mukhtaralam2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Dear Brother Daud , Assalam-0-alaikum,
>>>
>>> It is interesting to see that Mr.Moeeen Yaseen is in dailogue with you on the issue. I wish to seek Islamically sound communication on the issue. GJM thinks 'interest is not necessary based on the conclusion of binary economists and then works with Muslims who look forward to usury free finance system.
>>>
>>> I am with you as seek abidance to the commands.
>>>
>>> Dear Brother Moeen, Looking forward to see more results. I am planning for a workshop on behalf on Sufi Trust and other organisations here in Delhi. I will be glad to see the reports of the conference in London.My paper on transforming the world bank...can be seen at my site noted below
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr.Muhammad Mukhtar Alam
>>>http://muhammad_mukhtar_alam.tigblog.org
>>>
>>>david pidcock <davidpidcock at yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>>>
>>>Dear Moeen
>>> Much Ado About Nothing? I think not! Me thinks the gentleman protesteth too much
>>>
>>> "The modern theory for the perpetuation of debt has drenched the earth with blood and crushed its inhabitants under burdens ever accumulating...
>>>
>>> "We withstood the weight of the iron, the stone and the lash, but we could not endure the burden of debt -
>>>
>>> I don't find anything vaguely funny in the above two statements about people being in debt and without the means to pay. The first from Thomas Jefferson the second from Imam Ali.
>>>
>>> Neither of which - to the best of my knowledge -belonged to loony left. If the Prophet (as) and his family found the burden of debt impossible who the hell can doubt its ruinous effects.
>>>
>>> Shakespeare or Shaikhspeare's Fatwa will not wash - or be allowed to wash - or those of those other scholar's for dollars regardless of their Muslim sounding names.
>>>
>>> MIlton's Paradigms Lost sounds much more like it - Milton as in Freidman.
>>>
>>> PS: The term Funny Money is the banking establishment's put down for those daring to question the established order - of whom Montagu Norman - the longest serving Governor of the Bank of England remarked: "The dogs may bark, but the caravan roles on..".
>>>
>>> Wassalam
>>> Yours
>>> Daud
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yaseen <myaseen at mail.globalvision2000.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Daud,
>>>
>>>This is exactly what Rodney Shakespeare has stated about you - i.e. in terms of your position on debtfree or funny money as he calls it. Whilst he thinks your diagnosis of the problem is spot on I understand that he differs on the remedies. He is not referring to personality politics. As the issues at stake are enormous concerning the liberation of humanity from Dajjal and Riba can you clarify exactly wher and on what matter you differ from him. He is claiming that he is working with a network of Islamic economists with Professor Masadul Chaudhury inclusive of the launching of the New Universal Paradigm book.
>>>In light of this it is important to have an open debate so that the varying positions are aired and debated.
>>>
>>>Moeen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: david pidcock
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 05:01:37 +0100 (BST)
Dear Moeen
The only thing that concerns me is Rodney Shakespear - if that who Professor Shakespear is. Otherwise it looks good
Yours Daud
________________________________________________________________
Sent via the WebMail system at mail.globalvision2000.com
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